is jesus christ being sworn in today?

decides2dream

chiquimonkey wrote:

well when people go off on irrational tangents then yes, it's easy to assume they hate america.

i haven't been lazy in any of my arguments i've shared here.

so yeah, it DOESN'T sum it up.

agreed. i don't see 'lazy' arguments at all. perhaps 1 or 2 posts....then quite a few made in jest....but i see a lot of very valid points made. just b/c one refuses to acknowledge them, or chooses to disregard the validity, doesn't make them invalid.


also, i don't think i've seen anyone in this thread refer to anyone else as being anti-american. i know i haven't. i also keep seeing this argument being made like we're trying to stifle one's right to express their opinion. countering an opinion, i did not realize, was actually stifling it. but rebutting any argument in support of flag-waving isn't stifling. just like we should respect other cultures, but apparently can't expect the same. i simply can't seem to follow the rules of this game, or sure...not a game i think worth playing.


it's been said many times over...one wants to think i's ignorant, stupid or whatever else negative connotation there is about flag-waving...more power to you! but the acknowledgement, at the very least that it's our culture, in our country....and while it ain't your thang, at least see it's our own choice for freedom of expression.....that courtesy would be nice. not expecting it, but sure....





anyhooo...this entire argument was a tangent, a huge one...from the initial purpose of the thread. as to whether it's irrational or not...i'll leave it up to you.




btw - so did ya notice......a sum total of 4 people's opinions on the topic consitutes *fact* that it is completely ridiculous to display a flag on your own home, in your own country? what power! someone better alert the vast majority of americans that they've got it all wrong! take those flags down, how dare you be so silly and ignorant!



and i would also say 'why do you care?' if one was so 'irked' by another countries customs/sulture...if they did not harm anyone, nor infringe upon anyone. whether flag-waving or yodelling......

dunkman

chiquimonkey wrote:

comparing flag waving to female circumcision, presuming that americans are all the same. pretty damn irrational.

i didnt actually compare them like for like... and i wouldnt. I was suggesting that certain customs and/or traditions which we might not see as 'normal' are to some others... and i was trying to say that someone who flies a flag above their porch 365 days a year might not get why *insert strange cultural practice* is done in another country.

i also dont presume all americans to be the same. i've never said that.

Heineken Helen

chiquimonkey wrote:

he did compare it.


that is a comparison.

nobody's saying to sit back and shut up. i'm certainly not, and i'm not doing it either. just come to the table with valid arguments. and if you don't, prepare to get called on it.

they certainly ARE valid arguments... are you now debating the topic or the actual debate? :? you obviously refuse to accept that anyone else has a valid point... so I fail to see what you're doing here?

The purpose of my debate was to point out that I know it's done (which many people even debated) but why? Some people gave proper answers but I'm still failing to understand. The purpose of YOUR debate seems to be that everyone else is wrong and if we can't see why YOUR right then we must be stupid or ignorant or something?

I question many things done in other cultures... why is this one making your blood apparently boil?

chiquimonkey

dunkman wrote:

chiquimonkey wrote:

comparing flag waving to female circumcision, presuming that americans are all the same. pretty damn irrational.

i didnt actually compare them like for like... and i wouldnt. I was suggesting that certain customs and/or traditions which we might not see as 'normal' are to some others... and i was trying to say that someone who flies a flag above their porch 365 days a year might not get why *insert strange cultural practice* is done in another country.

i also dont presume all americans to be the same. i've never said that.

well making the comparison of customs, between something that is a violation of human rights, versus a flag being flown around...doesn't compare. i addressed it earlier in this thread, but surprise, it was ignored.

i'm glad you don't think all americans are the same. that's the impression i've been getting in some posts here, not necessarily you, but sprinkled here and there. and i never said you said that.

dunkman

chiquimonkey wrote:

dunkman wrote:

its cultural in certain middle eastern countries to let women have their clitoris removed... you ok with that? you dont think it's odd? nonsense? wrong!?

its cultural in india that daughters can be swapped for goats or cattle.. you ok with that? you dont think it's odd? nonsense? wrong!?

its the culture in america to fly the flag, say god bless it and to also think that its the greatest country in the world.. i'm not ok with that, i think its odd, makes no sense and wrong.. wrong as in it promotes blinkered patriotism for patriotism sake.

that is a comparison.

nobody's saying to sit back and shut up. i'm certainly not, and i'm not doing it either. just come to the table with valid arguments. and if you don't, prepare to get called on it.

i'm afraid that is still not a direct comparison.

just highlighting the fact that certain things in certain cultures are all up for discussion and debate on their validity.

I'm pretty sure you could visit the uk and see something within our culture that you might not 'get'... that you might go back home to folks and say "hey, they do this weird ass thing over there called *whatever* "

i've also not asked that it be stopped... just dont get it nor the need to do it.

Heineken Helen

decides2dream wrote:

agreed. i don't see 'lazy' arguments at all. perhaps 1 or 2 posts....then quite a few made in jest....but i see a lot of very valid points made. just b/c one refuses to acknowledge them, or chooses to disregard the validity, doesn't make them invalid.


also, i don't think i've seen anyone in this thread refer to anyone else as being anti-american. i know i haven't. i also keep seeing this argument being made like we're trying to stifle one's right to express their opinion. countering an opinion, i did not realize, was actually stifling it. but rebutting any argument in support of flag-waving isn't stifling. just like we should respect other cultures, but apparently can't expect the same. i simply can't seem to follow the rules of this game, or sure...not a game i think worth playing.


it's been said many times over...one wants to think i's ignorant, stupid or whatever else negative connotation there is about flag-waving...more power to you! but the acknowledgement, at the very least that it's our culture, in our country....and while it ain't your thang, at least see it's our own choice for freedom of expression.....that courtesy would be nice. not expecting it, but sure....





anyhooo...this entire argument was a tangent, a huge one...from the initial purpose of the thread. as to whether it's irrational or not...i'll leave it up to you.




btw - so did ya notice......a sum total of 4 people's opinions on the topic consitutes *fact* that it is completely ridiculous to display a flag on your own home, in your own country? what power! someone better alert the vast majority of americans that they've got it all wrong! take those flags down, how dare you be so silly and ignorant!



and i would also say 'why do you care?' if one was so 'irked' by another countries customs/sulture...if they did not harm anyone, nor infringe upon anyone. whether flag-waving or yodelling......

so you didn't see jaegler's constant posts about how we're anti-american? :? dunno how you could miss them. You say it's your choice for freedom of expression... good for you... but I still fail to see what it is you're expressing?

I never claimed that 4 peoples opinions on the topic constitutes FACT :roll: Jaegler said there were only two of us. I also pointed out that I can't say 'in my opinion' cos it's also the opinion of others so that would be misleading. You can keep ignoring that if you like.

I DON'T CARE... it's a discussion... I don't care about plenty of things I discuss here... it's a discussion board... I don't see anywhere it says you have to care????????????????? :? so again, keep ignoring that point too.

chiquimonkey

Heineken Helen wrote:

they certainly ARE valid arguments... are you now debating the topic or the actual debate? :? you obviously refuse to accept that anyone else has a valid point... so I fail to see what you're doing here?

The purpose of my debate was to point out that I know it's done (which many people even debated) but why? Some people gave proper answers but I'm still failing to understand. The purpose of YOUR debate seems to be that everyone else is wrong and if we can't see why YOUR right then we must be stupid or ignorant or something?

I question many things done in other cultures... why is this one making your blood apparently boil?

oh my blood isn't boliling, trust me. i save that for things that matter.

i'll accept someone has a valid point when they present it to me. i can see how it's irritating to see blind patriotism (i agreed in an earlier post), but saying that 'god bless america' somehow diminished the value of other countries? sorry, i don't accept that. and just as you don't have to accept my point of view, i don't have to accept yours. and that's okay.

ignorance is in providing weak arguments, or ignoring when someone offers a point of view. so you can read that however you like.

dunkman

decides2dream wrote:

btw - so did ya notice......a sum total of 4 people's opinions on the topic consitutes *fact* that it is completely ridiculous to display a flag on your own home, in your own country? what power! someone better alert the vast majority of americans that they've got it all wrong! take those flags down, how dare you be so silly and ignorant!

making things up now are we?

i counted more than 4.. i also never once saw anyone who had suggested it was FACT.. just their opinion that flying a flag on your own doorstep of the country you live in is just a bit odd... to us... just as grown men chasing a giant circular cheese down a hill in Yorkshire every year is a bit odd... funny, but a bit weird.

i agree with the last sentence though...

chiquimonkey

dunkman wrote:

chiquimonkey wrote:

dunkman wrote:

its cultural in certain middle eastern countries to let women have their clitoris removed... you ok with that? you dont think it's odd? nonsense? wrong!?

its cultural in india that daughters can be swapped for goats or cattle.. you ok with that? you dont think it's odd? nonsense? wrong!?

its the culture in america to fly the flag, say god bless it and to also think that its the greatest country in the world.. i'm not ok with that, i think its odd, makes no sense and wrong.. wrong as in it promotes blinkered patriotism for patriotism sake.

that is a comparison.

nobody's saying to sit back and shut up. i'm certainly not, and i'm not doing it either. just come to the table with valid arguments. and if you don't, prepare to get called on it.

i'm afraid that is still not a direct comparison.

just highlighting the fact that certain things in certain cultures are all up for discussion and debate on their validity.

I'm pretty sure you could visit the uk and see something within our culture that you might not 'get'... that you might go back home to folks and say "hey, they do this weird ass thing over there called *whatever* "

i've also not asked that it be stopped... just dont get it nor the need to do it.

of course things are all up for discussion and debate, so i see your point from that perspective. i just think the example of female mutilation is a different thing altogether.

and sure, i've been to the UK and seen stuff we don't do here and maybe don't 'get', that's cool. i'm not trying to make everybody think everyone in the UK is a freak because of it lol

Heineken Helen

chiquimonkey wrote:

oh my blood isn't boliling, trust me. i save that for things that matter.

i'll accept someone has a valid point when they present it to me. i can see how it's irritating to see blind patriotism (i agreed in an earlier post), but saying that 'god bless america' somehow diminished the value of other countries? sorry, i don't accept that. and just as you don't have to accept my point of view, i don't have to accept yours. and that's okay.

ignorance is in providing weak arguments, or ignoring when someone offers a point of view. so you can read that however you like.

I certainly haven't ignored anyone's point of view... I haven't provided weak arguments either... they've just been ignored. I've pointed out how across the world, plenty of flags are seen as a symbol of hate. They can also symbolise blind patriotism... which can lead to much more serious stuff... as the likes of the nazis proved. I have pointed out how it can segregate people and make them feel like an outsider. I think when people blindly fly their flag on their porch, NONE of this is taken into consideration. If you consider any of those 'weak arguments' well there's no point continuing this discussion.

chiquimonkey

Heineken Helen wrote:

chiquimonkey wrote:

oh my blood isn't boliling, trust me. i save that for things that matter.

i'll accept someone has a valid point when they present it to me. i can see how it's irritating to see blind patriotism (i agreed in an earlier post), but saying that 'god bless america' somehow diminished the value of other countries? sorry, i don't accept that. and just as you don't have to accept my point of view, i don't have to accept yours. and that's okay.

ignorance is in providing weak arguments, or ignoring when someone offers a point of view. so you can read that however you like.

I certainly haven't ignored anyone's point of view... I haven't provided weak arguments either... they've just been ignored. I've pointed out how across the world, plenty of flags are seen as a symbol of hate. They can also symbolise blind patriotism... which can lead to much more serious stuff... as the likes of the nazis proved. I have pointed out how it can segregate people and make them feel like an outsider. I think when people blindly fly their flag on their porch, NONE of this is taken into consideration. If you consider any of those 'weak arguments' well there's no point continuing this discussion.

well i haven't seen anybody address the first post i made in this thread, so it got ignored too.

and how do you know these people are 'blindly' flying their flags? maybe they have a compelling reason to do so, that isn't intended to ostracize people.

whatever, go ahead and twist this however you like. it's clearly a waste of time trying to have a discussion with peopel who don't listen.

dunkman

chiquimonkey wrote:

ignorance is in providing weak arguments, or ignoring when someone offers a point of view. so you can read that however you like.

i agree

like this kind of response

gvn2fly74 wrote:

Heineken Helen wrote:

that's cool... there ARE great possibilities in the US.. but NO greater than there are in many other countries throughout the world. Just remember that. Also, the US IS a great country, but no greater than many other countries.

what ever :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

what ever???? now thats serious fucking debating...

chiquimonkey

dunkman wrote:

chiquimonkey wrote:

ignorance is in providing weak arguments, or ignoring when someone offers a point of view. so you can read that however you like.

i agree

like this kind of response

gvn2fly74 wrote:

Heineken Helen wrote:

that's cool... there ARE great possibilities in the US.. but NO greater than there are in many other countries throughout the world. Just remember that. Also, the US IS a great country, but no greater than many other countries.

what ever :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

what ever???? now thats serious fucking debating...

well yes, that's ignorant. i'm not arguing that! it's on both sides here.

Heineken Helen

chiquimonkey wrote:

well i haven't seen anybody address the first post i made in this thread, so it got ignored too.

and how do you know these people are 'blindly' flying their flags? maybe they have a compelling reason to do so, that isn't intended to ostracize people.

whatever, go ahead and twist this however you like. it's clearly a waste of time trying to have a discussion with peopel who don't listen.

so tell me what compelling arguments they might have... rather than just say I'm wrong cos they MIGHT have a compelling argument

anyway, there's no point talking to you since unless I say whatever it is you want me to say you're just gonna focus on the manner of debating rather than the actual debate.

Ooohh I'm sorry I ignored your first post... :? did I? Did you address me?

decides2dream

dunkman wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

btw - so did ya notice......a sum total of 4 people's opinions on the topic consitutes *fact* that it is completely ridiculous to display a flag on your own home, in your own country? what power! someone better alert the vast majority of americans that they've got it all wrong! take those flags down, how dare you be so silly and ignorant!

making things up now are we?

i counted more than 4.. i also never once saw anyone who had suggested it was FACT.. just their opinion that flying a flag on your own doorstep of the country you live in is just a bit odd... to us... just as grown men chasing a giant circular cheese down a hill in Yorkshire every year is a bit odd... funny, but a bit weird.

i agree with the last sentence though...

i was referencing helen's post...she named 4. i wasn't going to waste my time counting em up....but i don't care if the number ws in the thousands.....b/c clearly, millions of americans DO support and appreciate flying their flags on their own homes, etc.....and i certainly don't think it's 'silly' either.......and helen did pretty much say outright that it IS silly and serves no purpose, etc, etc.....which sure appears to be parading OPINION as FACT. i'll retract the fact bit tho, fine.


and good for you.


btw - saying it's funny, odd, whatever.....all cool...said as much many times over! but to go on and on, like we shouldn't, or how dare we say 'god bless america' etc....imo...is taking it too far. but whatever. i find it extremely odd that something that does not impact you in any way, harms no one,does not happen in your country, etc....would be THAT irksome. but i guess we both have trouble 'understanding'....and that's a-ok. it's the way the opinion was presented - and hammered endlessly - more than anything.

chiquimonkey

Heineken Helen wrote:

chiquimonkey wrote:

well i haven't seen anybody address the first post i made in this thread, so it got ignored too.

and how do you know these people are 'blindly' flying their flags? maybe they have a compelling reason to do so, that isn't intended to ostracize people.

whatever, go ahead and twist this however you like. it's clearly a waste of time trying to have a discussion with peopel who don't listen.

so tell me what compelling arguments they might have... rather than just say I'm wrong cos they MIGHT have a compelling argument

anyway, there's no point talking to you since unless I say whatever it is you want me to say you're just gonna focus on the manner of debating rather than the actual debate.

Ooohh I'm sorry I ignored your first post... :? did I? Did you address me?

well i just made a point about people 'blindly' flying their flags. you just glossed over it, and it wasn't like it was buried in back pages.

i agree, no point debating here because you just want to hear what you think. i've addressed you enough. enjoy yourself!

The Juggler

Heineken Helen wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

....

so you didn't see jaegler's constant posts about how we're anti-american? :? dunno how you could miss them. You say it's your choice for freedom of expression... good for you... but I still fail to see what it is you're expressing?
o.

my "constant posts?" are you fucking nuts helen? i hinted at it in ONE post. then you said you were not. then i dropped it. if your definition of "constant" is one, and a follow up post to defend myself, then i apologize. i just dont see why you and dunk are so preoccupied with what we americans do over here. if you dont care about it, why keep posting and posting and posting about it? i dont get you crazy europeans sometimes

oh, and the fucking point of this whole thread was to talk about the united state's biased media....not some offhanded comment the jeagler made after the fact. you guys are nuts! love ya!

decides2dream

Heineken Helen wrote:

so you didn't see jaegler's constant posts about how we're anti-american? :? dunno how you could miss them. You say it's your choice for freedom of expression... good for you... but I still fail to see what it is you're expressing?

I never claimed that 4 peoples opinions on the topic constitutes FACT :roll: Jaegler said there were only two of us. I also pointed out that I can't say 'in my opinion' cos it's also the opinion of others so that would be misleading. You can keep ignoring that if you like.

I DON'T CARE... it's a discussion... I don't care about plenty of things I discuss here... it's a discussion board... I don't see anywhere it says you have to care????????????????? :? so again, keep ignoring that point too.

dear gawd....if you take those seriously...there's no hope. truly. hahahahahahaha.
expressing love of country, patriotism, respect, unity....all sorts of things, you'd have to ask each individual american who flyies their flag why they do so.


and even if others share your opinion...it's STILL opinion!


and alrighty then! who told you not to discuss? i merely questioned why...and now you answered...basically for the fuck of it. gotcha.

Heineken Helen

chiquimonkey wrote:

well i just made a point about people 'blindly' flying their flags. you just glossed over it, and it wasn't like it was buried in back pages.

i agree, no point debating here because you just want to hear what you think. i've addressed you enough. enjoy yourself!

ooohh that's funny, I could say your last paragraph to YOU

Sorry for 'ignoring' your wonderful post which, I'm sure, cleared the whole thing up :?

I'd this debate with anyone who wants to discuss it like an adult... thanks for your input though.

The Juggler

Heineken Helen wrote:

thank you.

for proving that you're obsessed with thinking everyone hates America? :?

ehhh... you're welcome.. I think.[/quote]

explain to me, with examples, of why the jeagler feels that way. if you can do it, i will give you a million... euros.

so you're now reduced to making idiotic claims with nothing to back it up. i thought you were more intelligent than that my friend. no?