This the real test Both rather obnoxious artists but who has redeeming features?
"I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
I woudnt like to say, I guess the latter is at first glance more appealing to me. I can though, look at each (and not having a clue who did them, or when or where) and appreciate that they both took a considerable amount of time, effort, talent and skill.
It's the dead sheep, the white blocks, the piles of bricks and the coloured block painting I'm not so keen on Whatever that says about me, it says it......honestly
and therein lies the REAL point: it is not for you or i to deicde if it IS art...but to debate if it is 'good' or 'bad' art, in the most simplistic of terms...now THERE's an interesting discussion.
i completely agree. a LOT of art today is shite.....but again, to dismiss ALL art/artists creating today on that basis, now that's pretnetious - by whomever decides to do so. there are PLENTY of artists working today, right now, who's talents and skills WOULD match up with many ideas of what is 'art'...as people are debating in this thread.
so again this:
modern art = shit
dunk may've backtracked and said it's merely 'opinion'....but presenting an *equation* like that IS wrong, in MY opinion....but really, forget opinions, "modern art = shit" just ain't so. even dunk admitted pollack, chagall, etc....lots of good art and yes, they ALL are under "modern art."
and it's not just about technical ability...or just ideas...it's a melding of both usually, sometimes not always......and just way too much to get into on a message board, at least for me. this is a loooooonnnnnng, interesting conversation to have in person, over coffee...or perhaps IN an art gallery, or museum, and really look at examples and discuss.
anyhoo...i am all for anyone sharing their opinions ABOUT the work, but sorry if *I* am not pretentious enough to say that my opinion, my thoughts on WHAT is ART.....alone...is correct. again, opinions, to me, are in the realm of is it good? is it bad? but is it art? hmmmmmmm....that i don't think there IS a definitive answer. i think you're right, a lot of it is if the creator says it is so, then it is. it is then up to the viewer to accept or reject that premise for themselves...but that still in no way diminishes the creator's *right* to call it art.
and.......back to work!
I agree with a lot of what you said. I think the question is; is something art merely because someone says it is? I know the meaning and story behind the Fountain or even its importance, and I know the philosophy behind Malevich's Black Square etc. Yet those works do not fall under my personal definition of art. You're right there's not a definitive answer as to what art is, so why should I accept their definition of art? Why let someone else define art for me? An artist has every right to call his work art, I have no problem with that, but he/she should not expect me to agree, in fact, I think I have the right to say it's not art.
If there's no universal definition of art then I'd rather use my own definition instead of one dictated to me.
I agree with a lot of what you said. I think the question is; is something art merely because someone says it is? I know the meaning and story behind the Fountain or even its importance, and I know the philosophy behind Malevich's Black Square etc. Yet those works do not fall under my personal definition of art. You're right there's not a definitive answer as to what art is, so why should I accept their definition of art? Why let someone else define art for me? An artist has every right to call his work art, I have no problem with that, but he/she should not expect me to agree, in fact, I think I have the right to say it's not art.
If there's no universal definition of art then I'd rather use my own definition instead of one dictated to me.
Now get your coffee!
That might be the most conclusive post we've had yet. Bravo!
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
I agree with a lot of what you said. I think the question is; is something art merely because someone says it is? I know the meaning and story behind the Fountain or even its importance, and I know the philosophy behind Malevich's Black Square etc. Yet those works do not fall under my personal definition of art. You're right there's not a definitive answer as to what art is, so why should I accept their definition of art? Why let someone else define art for me? An artist has every right to call his work art, I have no problem with that, but he/she should not expect me to agree, in fact, I think I have the right to say it's not art.
If there's no universal definition of art then I'd rather use my own definition instead of one dictated to me.
i think you're right, a lot of it is if the creator says it is so, then it is. it is then up to the viewer to accept or reject that premise for themselves...but that still in no way diminishes the creator's *right* to call it art.
so it goes both ways really...it may not be *art* for you....but it is for the creator, and perhaps...for others. absolutely, we ALL have the *right* to decide for ourselves. i simply dislike when some may say something like "modern art = shit." now, that MAY hold true for the person stating it.....but to say it holds true universally, it just....doesn't. and not to rehash that, again, i know dunk says he wasn't saying that, just offering his personal perspective and blah, blah, blah....but yes....we were ALL discussing our 'personal perspectives'...and i agree, we have the right to make up our own damn minds. personally, i think that is why i enjoy a lot of work....b/c it absolutely makes me question my personal definition at times...:p
I've forgotten which artist it was but I think I've seen a modern art piece which was a half-finished paint-by-numbers board. Now that's irony.
Edit: Decides2Dream has just informed me it's Andy Warhol.. Thankyou D2D.
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
Clowns have generally been accepted, in our modern age, as being scarey, terrifying murderous characters, perverted, twisted lunatics. Quite how we, as a society, eventually accepted that portrayal is not clear to me, I remember them riding around in tiny cars, doors falling off, buckets of water...oh they were the greatest. Charlie Carolie, what happened to your legacy ?
Why do we now fear, and hold in general suspicion, that which we once embraced, and fell about laughing at? When did the change come?
Indeed, was it a change in the clowns.....or just our perception of them?
Sideshow Bob, Crusty.......you have some answers to give.
Clowns have generally been accepted, in our modern age, as being scarey, terrifying murderous characters, perverted, twisted lunatics. Quite how we, as a society, eventually accepted that portrayal is not clear to me, I remember them riding around in tiny cars, doors falling off, buckets of water...oh they were the greatest. Charlie Carolie, what happened to your legacy ?
Why do we now fear, and hold in general suspicion, that which we once embraced, and fell about laughing at? When did the change come?
Indeed, was it a change in the clowns.....or just our perception of them?
Sideshow Bob, Crusty.......you have some answers to give.
That was classic Jamie.
Truly, you touched the heart of what I meant. Crusty doesn't scare me. Sideshow on the other hand. :eek: Not to mention Jigsaw..he looks like a clown.
People do really collect clowns!
Cause I'm broken when I'm lonesome
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
That was classic Jamie.
Truly, you touched the heart of what I meant. Crusty doesn't scare me. Sideshow on the other hand. :eek: Not to mention Jigsaw..he looks like a clown.
People do really collect clowns!
Trixie, do you think maybe it's just us as a society? Maybe it suits us to have scape goats? I dunno, just started wondering, I mean clowns...what's so bad about them? When did we all become terrified of them?
Maybe it's us that's the sick party, and we like to blame the clowns...poor guys.
Trixie, do you think maybe it's just us as a society? Maybe it suits us to have scape goats? I dunno, just started wondering, I mean clowns...what's so bad about them? When did we all become terrified of them?
Maybe it's us that's the sick party, and we like to blame the clowns...poor guys.
Really? You may be on to something here.
But you are getting off the point.
Are they art?
Are they held in the same esteem as say, I dunno, Renoir? Picasso?
I bet the people that did those paint-by-number pieces truly were proud of their work.
We can sit around and joke about the dogs playing poker or the velvet Elvis, but who's to say that isn't high art just because it isn't hanging in a museum or in an overpriced art book.
Cause I'm broken when I'm lonesome
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
Not mine.:p It's a strip designed to be "bad art", because that's what the creator saw was selling these days. Which makes my links even more relevant than I thought. :eek:
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
Not mine.:p It's a strip designed to be "bad art", because that's what the creator saw was selling these days. Which makes my links even more relevant than I thought. :eek:
Bad because it is based on a very bad, mean old clown?
Or just musing on the fact that there is just a bunch of junk out there?
I was entertained by Saw though the acting was atrocious.
And the 2nd one was horrible.
Again, don't tell jigsaw.
I am not afraid of too much, not even clowns really. But that Jigsaw...:eek:
Also, marionettes...they are kind of scary. But art, nonetheless.
Cause I'm broken when I'm lonesome
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
Bad because it is based on a very bad, mean old clown?
Or just musing on the fact that there is just a bunch of junk out there?
I was entertained by Saw though the acting was atrocious.
And the 2nd one was horrible.
Again, don't tell jigsaw.
I am not afraid of too much, not even clowns really. But that Jigsaw...:eek:
Also, marionettes...they are kind of scary. But art, nonetheless.
Is Jigsaw's methodical mutilation of the human body some form of art?
(Oh, and "bad art" because comic strips that have crude drawings in them are doing far better than ones with more developed techniques... I'm such a geek.:o)
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
Is Jigsaw's methodical mutilation of the human body some form of art?
(Oh, and "bad art" because comic strips that have crude drawings in them are doing far better than ones with more developed techniques... I'm such a geek.:o)
I think some of the crudely drawn comics are funny. Some are just bad. I thought the ones you posted were funny.
Now Doonsebury...there was a comic strip.
I think his contraptions may be considered a form of art.
The best being in the first movie with his (later to be discovered) apprentice.
The one where her jaw would be ripped open??
I have a really weird attraction to old photographs depicting torture devices.
(as every friend I have on here runs the other way)
More like the whole morbid fascination. You know, the sepia photographs?
Cause I'm broken when I'm lonesome
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
I think some of the crudely drawn comics are funny. Some are just bad. I thought the ones you posted were funny.
Now Doonsebury...there was a comic strip.
I think his contraptions may be considered a form of art.
The best being in the first movie with his (later to be discovered) apprentice.
The one where her jaw would be ripped open??
I have a really weird attraction to old photographs depicting torture devices.
(as every friend I have on here runs the other way)
More like the whole morbid fascination. You know, the sepia photographs?
Yeah, I know what you mean - it's the same thing that makes us watch films like Saw and Hostel, or listen to old blues records. Without meaning to sound too pretentious or anything, it's the "beauty of pain" thingy. (Actually, it's impossible to sound pretentious when the best word you can come up with is "thingy".:p) I think people thrive on that kind of juxtaposition, mostly from a distance, unless you're the kinky type.:o
Which might be why we like to assign pain, anguish and horror to clowns - the contrast between a brightly painted smile and a darkened heart is quite captivating.
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
Yeah, I know what you mean - it's the same thing that makes us watch films like Saw and Hostel, or listen to old blues records. Without meaning to sound too pretentious or anything, it's the "beauty of pain" thingy. (Actually, it's impossible to sound pretentious when the best word you can come up with is "thingy".:p) I think people thrive on that kind of juxtaposition, mostly from a distance, unless you're the kinky type.:o
Which might be why we like to assign pain, anguish and horror to clowns - the contrast between a brightly painted smile and a darkened heart is quite captivating.
You're making sense. Well between us all, maybe we can sort of:)
Personally, I am really put off Saw, Hostel and the like, I can't be watching them types of films. The idea of murdering people in ever more imaginative ways, just kinda leaves me cold.
Saying all that, I realy love sepia photographs.
Comments
kincade.....or serrano.
love it.
carry on.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I woudnt like to say, I guess the latter is at first glance more appealing to me. I can though, look at each (and not having a clue who did them, or when or where) and appreciate that they both took a considerable amount of time, effort, talent and skill.
It's the dead sheep, the white blocks, the piles of bricks and the coloured block painting I'm not so keen on
EV- 08/09,10/2008.06/08,09/2009
I agree with a lot of what you said. I think the question is; is something art merely because someone says it is? I know the meaning and story behind the Fountain or even its importance, and I know the philosophy behind Malevich's Black Square etc. Yet those works do not fall under my personal definition of art. You're right there's not a definitive answer as to what art is, so why should I accept their definition of art? Why let someone else define art for me? An artist has every right to call his work art, I have no problem with that, but he/she should not expect me to agree, in fact, I think I have the right to say it's not art.
If there's no universal definition of art then I'd rather use my own definition instead of one dictated to me.
Now get your coffee!
naděje umírá poslední
That might be the most conclusive post we've had yet. Bravo!
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
Call it a piece of art.
naděje umírá poslední
But it ain't art.
J/K
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
agreed.
as i've said....
so it goes both ways really...it may not be *art* for you....but it is for the creator, and perhaps...for others. absolutely, we ALL have the *right* to decide for ourselves. i simply dislike when some may say something like "modern art = shit." now, that MAY hold true for the person stating it.....but to say it holds true universally, it just....doesn't. and not to rehash that, again, i know dunk says he wasn't saying that, just offering his personal perspective and blah, blah, blah....but yes....we were ALL discussing our 'personal perspectives'...and i agree, we have the right to make up our own damn minds. personally, i think that is why i enjoy a lot of work....b/c it absolutely makes me question my personal definition at times...:p
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Ok....modern art? Or just plain scary?
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/FIP/CF-00027-C~Paint-by-Numbers-Coffee-Clown-Posters.jpg
Who is to say paint by numbers isn't art?
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
Edit: Decides2Dream has just informed me it's Andy Warhol.. Thankyou D2D.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
Did the artist sketch the paint by number board and then fill it in to be funny?
That is funny.
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
I......oh, I'm staying out of this
It is a lighthearted thread.
Jamie...don't stay out.
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
Or a glimpse into the intense, morose darkness that haunts and envelopes the deeply troubled soul of a clown in between hits of heroin? :eek:
You know...clowns are kitsch.
And I am sure there are people out there that are avid collectors.
Not me of course..
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
Collectors of clowns? Do they keep them in small cages, and force them to perform for food? That's what I'd do.
Why do we now fear, and hold in general suspicion, that which we once embraced, and fell about laughing at? When did the change come?
Indeed, was it a change in the clowns.....or just our perception of them?
Sideshow Bob, Crusty.......you have some answers to give.
Truly, you touched the heart of what I meant. Crusty doesn't scare me. Sideshow on the other hand. :eek: Not to mention Jigsaw..he looks like a clown.
People do really collect clowns!
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
Trixie, do you think maybe it's just us as a society? Maybe it suits us to have scape goats? I dunno, just started wondering, I mean clowns...what's so bad about them? When did we all become terrified of them?
Maybe it's us that's the sick party, and we like to blame the clowns...poor guys.
http://www.chainsawsuit.com/20080423.shtml
http://www.chainsawsuit.com/20080428.shtml
But you are getting off the point.
Are they art?
Are they held in the same esteem as say, I dunno, Renoir? Picasso?
I bet the people that did those paint-by-number pieces truly were proud of their work.
We can sit around and joke about the dogs playing poker or the velvet Elvis, but who's to say that isn't high art just because it isn't hanging in a museum or in an overpriced art book.
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
Chainsaw is NOT art.
Just kidding...don't tell Jigsaw I said that.
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
Not mine.:p It's a strip designed to be "bad art", because that's what the creator saw was selling these days. Which makes my links even more relevant than I thought. :eek:
Or just musing on the fact that there is just a bunch of junk out there?
I was entertained by Saw though the acting was atrocious.
And the 2nd one was horrible.
Again, don't tell jigsaw.
I am not afraid of too much, not even clowns really. But that Jigsaw...:eek:
Also, marionettes...they are kind of scary. But art, nonetheless.
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
Is Jigsaw's methodical mutilation of the human body some form of art?
(Oh, and "bad art" because comic strips that have crude drawings in them are doing far better than ones with more developed techniques... I'm such a geek.:o)
Now Doonsebury...there was a comic strip.
I think his contraptions may be considered a form of art.
The best being in the first movie with his (later to be discovered) apprentice.
The one where her jaw would be ripped open??
I have a really weird attraction to old photographs depicting torture devices.
(as every friend I have on here runs the other way)
More like the whole morbid fascination. You know, the sepia photographs?
And I don't feel right when you're gone away
Yeah, I know what you mean - it's the same thing that makes us watch films like Saw and Hostel, or listen to old blues records. Without meaning to sound too pretentious or anything, it's the "beauty of pain" thingy. (Actually, it's impossible to sound pretentious when the best word you can come up with is "thingy".:p) I think people thrive on that kind of juxtaposition, mostly from a distance, unless you're the kinky type.:o
Which might be why we like to assign pain, anguish and horror to clowns - the contrast between a brightly painted smile and a darkened heart is quite captivating.
You're making sense. Well between us all, maybe we can sort of:)
Personally, I am really put off Saw, Hostel and the like, I can't be watching them types of films. The idea of murdering people in ever more imaginative ways, just kinda leaves me cold.
Saying all that, I realy love sepia photographs.