Art is anything that makes one proud to be human

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

im talking about me seeing the music when i say it depends on the music.

no not radiohead quote. on in rainbows there is a song called jigsaw falling into place. being a tad obsessed with radiohead atm i grab onto any reference no matter how slight.

ah ok, I kinda stopped listening to radiohead about 10 years ago or so... still kinda like them but know fuck all about them anymore.

ah ok, so can you give me an example of seeing the music?

THE best musical experience of my life was hearing nessun dorma live at an open air lakeside festival in Italy... even my friend, who HATES opera lol, was in tears. And I can't understand a fucking word of the song... apparently it's about a load of people who can't sleep or something... I mean for fuck sake

catefrances

angelica wrote:

I'm sure when you seek to understand the ideal of art, you'll find your understanding.

for fucks sake angelica cant you answer a simple question. i asked you to explain what the ideal of Art was and you dismiss me like its beneath you to answer. i did notice however that you deleted my question when you quoted me.

angelica

catefrances wrote:

for fucks sake angelica cant you answer a simple question. i asked you to explain what the ideal of Art was and you dismiss me like its beneath you to answer. i did notice however that you deleted my question when you quoted me.

I'm not interested in answering it.

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

ah ok, so can you give me an example of seeing the music?

hmm... its not something i can describe cause if i try i will fall short in expressing it correctly and completely. they have been linear and checkered patterns. the most common colours for me are red, white and black... varying shades. they move and form and break apart in time with the music... funnily enough. that might be a subpar explanation but tis the best i can do.

catefrances

angelica wrote:

I'm not interested in answering it.

well thanks for that. :rolleyes:

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

hmm... its not something i can describe cause if i try i will fall short in expressing it correctly and completely. they have been linear and checkered patterns. the most common colours for me are red, white and black... varying shades. they move and form and break apart in time with the music... funnily enough. that might be a subpar explanation but tis the best i can do.

Hmm... well I've always imagined that if music had a form, it would look like the northern lights. Sometimes I've listened to sigur ros and I feel like I'm lying under the northern lights... but I don't see them and think it's the music. The music has relaxed me to a point where I'm imagining what I imagine to be very relaxing

angelica

catefrances wrote:

well thanks for that. :rolleyes:

I don't mean to be offensive and I apologise if it sounds offensive...I don't mean to talk down to you at all. I appreciate your intelligence and that you can discuss all kinds of fine lines. Not many will! For me, whether I use the term "ideal", "essence" "universal", or "form", it's fundamentally the same thing I am talking of. For me to explain it again in the context of ideal is draining and redundant for me. Since they are all vague approximations of the energy I'm describing, I'm looking to communicate generally, what I see.

(also, I was on the phone with an agency that was making me cranky, so I can understand if that translated to you)

catefrances

angelica wrote:

I don't mean to be offensive and I apologise if it sounds offensive...I don't mean to talk down to you at all. I appreciate your intelligence and that you can discuss all kinds of fine lines. Not many will! For me, whether I use the term "ideal", "essence" "universal", or "form", it's fundamentally the same thing I am talking of. For me to explain it again in the context of ideal is draining and redundant for me. Since they are all vague approximations of the energy I'm describing, I'm looking to communicate generally, what I see.

(also, I was on the phone with an agency that was making me cranky, so I can understand if that translated to you)

well you know what angelica im not a mind reader and i dont know anyone who is. so its fine that to you explaining the ideal of Art is redundant for you but i sought an understanding from you through my question and you brushed it aside as it were inconsequential. dont just assume people know that you interchange terms according to your own definitions. i dont ask questions lightly and when required to do so nor do i answer them lightly. i figured seeings how you brought the term up you could explain it. apparently i was mistaken.

Jeremy1012

Heineken Helen wrote:

ah ok, I kinda stopped listening to radiohead about 10 years ago or so... still kinda like them but know fuck all about them anymore.

ah ok, so can you give me an example of seeing the music?

THE best musical experience of my life was hearing nessun dorma live at an open air lakeside festival in Italy... even my friend, who HATES opera lol, was in tears. And I can't understand a fucking word of the song... apparently it's about a load of people who can't sleep or something... I mean for fuck sake

Whoa whoa whoa, hold the phone a second You saw Pavarotti singing Nessun Dorma?

Something I'll never get to do :(

And yeah, it's about the princess character from the opera decreeing that none of her subjects shall sleep until they discover the name of some prince who wishes to marry her, otherwise they shall all be beheaded or some shit. The whole of Turandot is incredible. I have now idea why I always shied away from opera until recently. I can imagine hearing that piece sung live must have been amazing.

angelica

catefrances wrote:

well you know what angelica im not a mind reader and i dont know anyone who is. so its fine that to you explaining the ideal of Art is redundant for you but i sought an understanding from you through my question and you brushed it aside as it were inconsequential. dont just assume people know that you interchange terms according to your own definitions. i dont ask questions lightly and when required to do so nor do i answer them lightly. i figured seeings how you brought the term up you could explain it. apparently i was mistaken.

ok...the ideal of art...like the universal, form, essence, etc. , to me, is the overall capacity that contains the potential of all art. Like the ideal of beauty, or Truth.

It's different than the ideal of my personal truth, or my personal conception of art. It's different than what flows from it, which becomes individuated art. It's is the container of "art". When all that flows from it is the contents of that container.

Again, I apologise for seeming to be condescending.

decides2dream

catefrances wrote:

you dont? youve never closed your eyes while listening to music and seen the music?

ahhhhh...to bring the audio and visual arts together: wassily kandinsky! there was a painter who tried to *see* music, and express it visually through his work. art about art. and it comes full circle.


art for art's sake.


art IS.

Jeremy1012

catefrances wrote:

hmm... its not something i can describe cause if i try i will fall short in expressing it correctly and completely. they have been linear and checkered patterns. the most common colours for me are red, white and black... varying shades. they move and form and break apart in time with the music... funnily enough. that might be a subpar explanation but tis the best i can do.

I get that a lot since I do most of my listening in the dark. It's kinda cool

chadwick

catefrances wrote:

well you know what angelica im not a mind reader and i dont know anyone who is. so its fine that to you explaining the ideal of Art is redundant for you but i sought an understanding from you through my question and you brushed it aside as it were inconsequential. dont just assume people know that you interchange terms according to your own definitions. i dont ask questions lightly and when required to do so nor do i answer them lightly. i figured seeings how you brought the term up you could explain it. apparently i was mistaken.

but Cate you know me kind of,
and yes i am a mind reader..
(but you knew that already)..(i think)..(maybe not)

catefrances

decides2dream wrote:

ahhhhh...to bring the audio and visual arts together: wassily kandinsky! there was a painter who tried to *see* music, and express it visually through his work. art about art. and it comes full circle.


art for art's sake.


art IS.

and it brings up the question what IS Art? and why does context matter? or does it? is it the michelangelo masterpiece? the graffitti on the the walls of the pedestrian tunnel? shepard fairey's OBEY GIANT? the purple horse your 4 year old beams with pride over? is it john cage's 4'33"?

decides2dream

catefrances wrote:

and it brings up the question what IS Art? and why does context matter? or does it? is it the michelangelo masterpiece? the graffitti on the the walls of the pedestrian tunnel? shepard fairey's OBEY GIANT? the purple horse your 4 year old beams with pride over? is it john cage's 4'33"?

of course.
my first post in this thread much earlier i said roughly the same. art IS. and the debate as to 'what is' art will go on indefinitely....but to me, what is art? art....just.....IS. it is beyond definition and debate. want to debate what is good or bad art, another topic entirely in my mind....but art just IS.

catefrances

decides2dream wrote:

of course.
my first post in this thread much earlier i said roughly the same. art IS. and the debate as to 'what is' art will go on indefinitely....but to me, what is art? art....just.....IS. it is beyond definition and debate. want to debate what is good or bad art, another topic entirely in my mind....but art just IS.

is there such a thing as bad Art if Art just IS?

angelica

catefrances wrote:

is there such a thing as bad Art if Art just IS?

Yes. In human conception. Human conception just is, too, including our ideas of good/bad. Is there an independent "bad art" ideal? Imo, no.

Jeremy1012

catefrances wrote:

is there such a thing as bad Art if Art just IS?

There are no bad reasons for appreciating any art. There may be bad art though.

angelica

angelica wrote:

Is there an independent "bad art" ideal? Imo, no.

This is where all emanates from the original ideal/form etc., in this case, of art.

For example, in Plato's assertion...the form or ideal of the tree exists, which includes all possible tree variables, including decay, defacement, etc....the negatives of the ideal. And yet the form or ideal, by encompassing it all, goes beyond it and beyond all possibilities.

"For example, a particular tree, with a branch or two missing, possibly alive, possibly dead, and with the initials of two lovers carved into its bark, is distinct from the abstract form of Tree-ness. A Tree is the ideal that each of us holds that allows us to identify the imperfect reflections of trees all around us." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_ideal

This is also why "not-God" does not exist as an ultimate Truth.

*runs for cover*

decides2dream

catefrances wrote:

is there such a thing as bad Art if Art just IS?

all is subjective eh?
as are most discussions.

beyond that, staying with the 'art IS' theory......in my mind, why not? just because it IS, doesn't mean there can't be descriptors of IT. adjectives are always welcome.

for me, i rarely speak in absolutes, all shades of grey in this wonderful existence, all various modes of thought.....rarely one *right* way to live, to think and certainly not for discussion of such malleable topics. so the statement 'art IS'.....encompasses all, and yet remains quite neutral. it IS. what of that 'IS' is up to you. so good, bad, and any other words can all be mixed in, does not in any way diminish that 'art IS.'


and round and round and round and round......we go!



btw - i don't believe in ultimate truths. perception is everything, and nothing.....and very, very subjective and insular. what is one 'ultimate truth' is someone else's false perception, ad nauseum. lots of lofty thoughts and discussions.....but all theories and ideas, so very open to various viewpoints, not definitive. very much like art.