Art is anything that makes one proud to be human

catefrances

angelica wrote:

...
edit: these forms or the form of art can also be understood as an "essence". The essence of art as a whole is the essence of art as a whole. Just as the essence of reality is the essence of reality. Even though such essences manifest in myriad ways, physically.

"What becomes most prominent in the middle dialogues is the idea that knowledge comes of grasping unchanging forms or essences, paired with the attempts to investigate such essences." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato

forms and artform are two diferrent things. though they are not mutually exclusive, they need to be separated in this discussion. Art is made up of forms but it is not one.

catefrances

angelica wrote:

Essences tend to be intangible.

Platos forms are interchangeable with essences. If you continue to understand these concepts through physical laws, you will not understand the concepts.

who is trying to understand these concepts through physical law? all im saying is that ART is not a form according to platos theory. i see Art, as ive said before, as an amalgam of these forms. a piece of Art can be broken down into separate forms, but it is not one itself.

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

who is trying to understand these concepts through physical law? all im saying is that ART is not a form according to platos theory. i see Art, as ive said before, as an amalgam of these forms. a piece of Art can be broken down into separate forms, but it is not one itself.

I dunno... when I listen to the comfortably numb solo, it certainly doesn't feel like a collection of separate forms

angelica

catefrances wrote:

forms and artform are two diferrent things. though they are not mutually exclusive, they need to be separated in this discussion. Art is made up of forms but it is not one.

What I am talking about is how in the metaphysical realm, the drop of water is also the ocean.

Your separation of these concepts is human and intellectual, and is done to aid understanding, and yet cannot describe what exists in the realm of essence, metaphysically, beyond intellectualization.

Human intellectualization is seeing the shadows on the wall of Plato's cave in the Allegory of the cave. It is fleeting, and human. It is not Truth and understanding.

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

I dunno... when I listen to the comfortably numb solo, it certainly doesn't feel like a collection of separate forms

and thats its beauty. someone else was thinking so you didnt have to(no offense). so all you have to do is enjoy the Art that is pink floyd.
of course for the most part all this 'mumbo jumbo' just IS. and we remain ignorant of it. which is generally good imo.

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

and thats its beauty. someone else was thinking so you didnt have to(no offense). so all you have to do is enjoy the Art that is pink floyd.
of course for the most part all this 'mumbo jumbo' just IS. and we remain ignorant of it. which is generally good imo.

why would I take offense? There's nothing I like more than having other people doing the thinking for me j/k

I don't see how music can be compared to visual art though I really really see no comparison.

catefrances

angelica wrote:

What I am talking about is how in the metaphysical realm, the drop of water is also the ocean.

Your separation of these concepts is human and intellectual, and is done to aid understanding, and yet cannot describe what exists in the realm of essence, metaphysically, beyond intellectualization.

Human intellectualization is seeing the shadows on the wall of Plato's cave in the Allegory of the cave. It is fleeting, and human. It is not Truth and understanding.

but it is a road to that understanding and so called truth. we cant as thinking animals just one day wake up and suddenly 'get' it all without thought and probing. we need to seek so we can tear away what is not needed. otherwise how do we know what is necessary and what is superfluous?

angelica

Also, what I refer to could be considered "ideal".

We have the ideal of art, from which all art flows. Or the ideal of love from which all love flows.

I personally sought Truth, Love and Beauty for many years.

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

why would I take offense? There's nothing I like more than having other people doing the thinking for me j/k

I don't see how music can be compared to visual art though I really really see no comparison.

you dont? youve never closed your eyes while listening to music and seen the music?

catefrances

angelica wrote:

Also, what I refer to could be considered "ideal".

We have the ideal of art, from which all art flows. Or the ideal of love from which all love flows.

I personally sought Truth, Love and Beauty for many years.

an ideal of Art? please explain that to me. all i want from Art is to feel, be it revulsion or strength, from the image i am viewing.

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

you dont? youve never closed your eyes while listening to music and seen the music?

Nope... I've closed my eyes and drifted away... but never seen the music what does it look like? To me, certain music just maks me completely overcome with emotion. Others are like the pieces of a puzzle falling into place.

angelica

catefrances wrote:

but it is a road to that understanding and so called truth. we cant as thinking animals just one day wake up and suddenly 'get' it all without thought and probing. we need to seek so we can tear away what is not needed. otherwise how do we know what is necessary and what is superfluous?

The signs/signifiers/words are merely a map. What I describe is also the shadows on the wall of the cave. According to Plato, knowing is beyond. And is different than what I describe as it exists beyond my (or anyone's) abilikty to communicate.

I agree with you, that the intellectual part serves it's purpose. And obviously you and I are both philosophical about this stuff. And that's applicable. The thing is I can only provide these maps and the key concepts about this realm. Understanding the concepts depends on going beyond the descriptions and human thought.

I believe 100% in direct knowing and hone this ability in myself beyond intellectualism all the time. Revelations. Waking up and totally getting it. I personally "got" this stuff long before I had any formal education in the philosophers. And literally before I even knew what philosophy was! Due to that I sought Truth/goodness. I had revelations from this metaphysical realm, where Truth exists.

"In several dialogues, Socrates floats the idea that Knowledge is a matter of recollection, and not of learning, observation, or study."

"Plato himself argues in the Timaeus that knowledge is always proportionate to the realm from which it is gained. In other words, if one derives their account of something experientially, because the world of sense is in flux, the views therein attained will be mere opinions. And opinions are characterized by a lack of necessity and stability. On the other hand, if one derives their account of something by way of the non-sensible forms, because these forms are unchanging, so too is the account derived from them. It is only in this sense that Plato uses the term "knowledge." (I endeavor the ALWAYS speak only from this realm of Truth, and what is unchanging, even though my humanity does distort it somewhat. This level of awareness still supercedes mere opinion continually)


When I have experiences with this Lighted realm that shows me stuff, I've said before, I am sometimes so humbled by it's beauty and drop to my knees in tears. And yet, the minute I start processing what I've seen, in order to understand it on a human level, I can see that I begin to distort what Is. Also, when I had the most illuminating spiritual visitation I've had, I was painfully aware that as I was thinking about the experience, and when I in any way describe it, I distort it. And still, the wisdom of the unchanging beyond humanity always shines through.

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

Nope... I've closed my eyes and drifted away... but never seen the music what does it look like? To me, certain music just maks me completely overcome with emotion. Others are like the pieces of a puzzle falling into place.

ooh how radiohead of you.

it depends on the music of course. and it doesnt always happen with me. its colours and patterns. i am rarely overcome with emotion whilst listening to music.

chadwick

angelica: i have a question for you?

what are you saying exactly?
most of these posts in this thread here
seem to be ramblings from google or wikipedia

and i know you know this...wikipedia is not credible

um, maybe i am off target and out of line here
but that is what i am seeing

im sorry if this statement offends you

angelica

catefrances wrote:

all i want from Art is to feel, be it revulsion or strength, from the image i am viewing.

I'm sure when you seek to understand the ideal of art, you'll find your understanding.

angelica

chadwick wrote:

angelica: i have a question for you?

what are you saying exactly?
most of these posts in this thread here
seem to be ramblings from google or wikipedia

and i know you know this...wikipedia is not credible

um, maybe i am off target and out of line here
but that is what i am seeing

im sorry if this statement offends you

I've said exactly what I'm saying. It's all right here.

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

ooh how radiohead of you. : D

it depends on the music of course. and it doesnt always happen with me. its colours and patterns. i am rarely overcome with emotion whilst listening to music.

Is that a radiohead quote?

Of COURSE it depends on the music... I'm obviously not referring to nickelback here but when it's done right... I can think of quite a few examples where I've been overcome with emotion by music... mainly opera the three tenors singing nessun dorma or michael crawford singing o holy night (I know I know.. don't tell anyone )... some live experiences also

angelica

Heineken Helen wrote:

I'm obviously not referring to nickelback here

chadwick

i don't know about that

art: it's not as difficult as it's being made out to be

everyone has an opinion
and is entitled to that opinion

that's about all that needs to be said

yes i like that art
no i do not like that art
i understand that art
i do not understand that art
i can feel the art
i cannot feel the art
i appreaciate the art
i do not appreaciate the art

that's about it

what's my point?
i forgot

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

Is that a radiohead quote?

Of COURSE it depends on the music... I'm obviously not referring to nickelback here but when it's done right... I can think of quite a few examples where I've been overcome with emotion by music... mainly opera the three tenors singing nessun dorma or michael crawford singing o holy night (I know I know.. don't tell anyone )... some live experiences also

im talking about me seeing the music when i say it depends on the music.

no not radiohead quote. on in rainbows there is a song called jigsaw falling into place. being a tad obsessed with radiohead atm i grab onto any reference no matter how slight.

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

im talking about me seeing the music when i say it depends on the music.

no not radiohead quote. on in rainbows there is a song called jigsaw falling into place. being a tad obsessed with radiohead atm i grab onto any reference no matter how slight.

ah ok, I kinda stopped listening to radiohead about 10 years ago or so... still kinda like them but know fuck all about them anymore.

ah ok, so can you give me an example of seeing the music?

THE best musical experience of my life was hearing nessun dorma live at an open air lakeside festival in Italy... even my friend, who HATES opera lol, was in tears. And I can't understand a fucking word of the song... apparently it's about a load of people who can't sleep or something... I mean for fuck sake

catefrances

angelica wrote:

I'm sure when you seek to understand the ideal of art, you'll find your understanding.

for fucks sake angelica cant you answer a simple question. i asked you to explain what the ideal of Art was and you dismiss me like its beneath you to answer. i did notice however that you deleted my question when you quoted me.

angelica

catefrances wrote:

for fucks sake angelica cant you answer a simple question. i asked you to explain what the ideal of Art was and you dismiss me like its beneath you to answer. i did notice however that you deleted my question when you quoted me.

I'm not interested in answering it.

catefrances

Heineken Helen wrote:

ah ok, so can you give me an example of seeing the music?

hmm... its not something i can describe cause if i try i will fall short in expressing it correctly and completely. they have been linear and checkered patterns. the most common colours for me are red, white and black... varying shades. they move and form and break apart in time with the music... funnily enough. that might be a subpar explanation but tis the best i can do.

catefrances

angelica wrote:

I'm not interested in answering it.

well thanks for that. :rolleyes:

Heineken Helen

catefrances wrote:

hmm... its not something i can describe cause if i try i will fall short in expressing it correctly and completely. they have been linear and checkered patterns. the most common colours for me are red, white and black... varying shades. they move and form and break apart in time with the music... funnily enough. that might be a subpar explanation but tis the best i can do.

Hmm... well I've always imagined that if music had a form, it would look like the northern lights. Sometimes I've listened to sigur ros and I feel like I'm lying under the northern lights... but I don't see them and think it's the music. The music has relaxed me to a point where I'm imagining what I imagine to be very relaxing

angelica

catefrances wrote:

well thanks for that. :rolleyes:

I don't mean to be offensive and I apologise if it sounds offensive...I don't mean to talk down to you at all. I appreciate your intelligence and that you can discuss all kinds of fine lines. Not many will! For me, whether I use the term "ideal", "essence" "universal", or "form", it's fundamentally the same thing I am talking of. For me to explain it again in the context of ideal is draining and redundant for me. Since they are all vague approximations of the energy I'm describing, I'm looking to communicate generally, what I see.

(also, I was on the phone with an agency that was making me cranky, so I can understand if that translated to you)

catefrances

angelica wrote:

I don't mean to be offensive and I apologise if it sounds offensive...I don't mean to talk down to you at all. I appreciate your intelligence and that you can discuss all kinds of fine lines. Not many will! For me, whether I use the term "ideal", "essence" "universal", or "form", it's fundamentally the same thing I am talking of. For me to explain it again in the context of ideal is draining and redundant for me. Since they are all vague approximations of the energy I'm describing, I'm looking to communicate generally, what I see.

(also, I was on the phone with an agency that was making me cranky, so I can understand if that translated to you)

well you know what angelica im not a mind reader and i dont know anyone who is. so its fine that to you explaining the ideal of Art is redundant for you but i sought an understanding from you through my question and you brushed it aside as it were inconsequential. dont just assume people know that you interchange terms according to your own definitions. i dont ask questions lightly and when required to do so nor do i answer them lightly. i figured seeings how you brought the term up you could explain it. apparently i was mistaken.

Jeremy1012

Heineken Helen wrote:

ah ok, I kinda stopped listening to radiohead about 10 years ago or so... still kinda like them but know fuck all about them anymore.

ah ok, so can you give me an example of seeing the music?

THE best musical experience of my life was hearing nessun dorma live at an open air lakeside festival in Italy... even my friend, who HATES opera lol, was in tears. And I can't understand a fucking word of the song... apparently it's about a load of people who can't sleep or something... I mean for fuck sake

Whoa whoa whoa, hold the phone a second You saw Pavarotti singing Nessun Dorma?

Something I'll never get to do :(

And yeah, it's about the princess character from the opera decreeing that none of her subjects shall sleep until they discover the name of some prince who wishes to marry her, otherwise they shall all be beheaded or some shit. The whole of Turandot is incredible. I have now idea why I always shied away from opera until recently. I can imagine hearing that piece sung live must have been amazing.

angelica

catefrances wrote:

well you know what angelica im not a mind reader and i dont know anyone who is. so its fine that to you explaining the ideal of Art is redundant for you but i sought an understanding from you through my question and you brushed it aside as it were inconsequential. dont just assume people know that you interchange terms according to your own definitions. i dont ask questions lightly and when required to do so nor do i answer them lightly. i figured seeings how you brought the term up you could explain it. apparently i was mistaken.

ok...the ideal of art...like the universal, form, essence, etc. , to me, is the overall capacity that contains the potential of all art. Like the ideal of beauty, or Truth.

It's different than the ideal of my personal truth, or my personal conception of art. It's different than what flows from it, which becomes individuated art. It's is the container of "art". When all that flows from it is the contents of that container.

Again, I apologise for seeming to be condescending.