When's the baby born?

farfromglorified

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm confused by the different views of abortion.

A human fetus is little more than a maggot as far as consciousness goes. Isn't that the determining factor on ethics?

I mean, how many people remember being a fetus?

Probably none that's because the BRAIN isn't developed completely.

Precisely why I'm against abortion law, but I'd probably abstain from the "maggot" language. The brain develops very quickly along with the associated consciousness. Those who seek to devide the human from the unhuman are not wrong to do so....they simply must be very wary.

A Surprise Left

If we are to divide the human from the not quite human (ie the unborn at certain stages) then I think there needs to be a clear line where this takes place in law. If the law states that during the early stages of pregnancy (when the baby is an assortment of cells and the brain hasen't formed and their is no conciousness) then any point after that abortion should not be a widely available option other than in the most extreme of cases. I don't really understand how a baby that is born just after pregancy is any different from an aborted foetus at say 6 months.

Ahnimus

Some people have tried to draw the line at consciousness.

But when we are conscious is hotly debated. Can anyone remember being conscious prior to learning to speak?

It's quite wide-spread, the belief that without language we are not conscious. For most thoughts come in the form of covert speech.

A Surprise Left

Ahnimus wrote:

Some people have tried to draw the line at consciousness.

But when we are conscious is hotly debated. Can anyone remember being conscious prior to learning to speak?

It's quite wide-spread, the belief that without language we are not conscious. For most thoughts come in the form of covert speech.

Well a baby doesn't speak until about 12 months or so. Are we going to declare humanity at 12 months of age? What about people who can't communicate in any form due to severe disablities?

Ahnimus

A Surprise Left wrote:

Well a baby doesn't speak until about 12 months or so. Are we going to declare humanity at 12 months of age? What about people who can't communicate in any form due to severe disablities?

No, I don't think so, the brain is fully developed at around 20 years of age. So that seems like as good a mark as any.

tooferz

due to being medicated, i can't really convey lucid thoughts anymore. instead i'll just post this. http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pain.htm it has a few interesting opinions regarding fetus pain.

A Surprise Left

Ahnimus wrote:

No, I don't think so, the brain is fully developed at around 20 years of age. So that seems like as good a mark as any.

LOL if thats a joke....but seriously there has to an effort to have some sort of line placed in the law. How can someone say that an unborn at 6 months of age can be aborted and feel okay with that?

Ahnimus

A Surprise Left wrote:

LOL if thats a joke....but seriously there has to an effort to have some sort of line placed in the law. How can someone say that an unborn at 6 months of age can be aborted and feel okay with that?

I'll post some hardcore facts in a few mins, ok?

Ahnimus

Ahnimus wrote:

I'll post some hardcore facts in a few mins, ok?

Ok, now with all seriousness. Humour asside.

Trimester: First
Period: Zygote
Weeks: 1
Major Developments: One-celled zygote divides and becomes a blastocyst

Trimester: First
Period: Zygote
Weeks: 2
Major Devleopments: Blastocyst implants into uterine wall; structure that nourish and protect the organism - aminion, chorion, yolk sac, placenta, umbilical cord - begin to form.

Trimester: First
Period: Embryo
Weeks: 3 - 4
Size: 1/4 in.
Major Developments: Brain, spinal cord, and heart form, as do the rudimentary structures that will become the eyes, ears, nose, mouth and limbs.

Trimester: First
Period: Embryo
Weeks: 5 - 8
Size: 1 in. 1/4 oz.
Major Developments: External body structures (eyes, ears, limbs) and internal organs form. Embryo produces its own blood and can now move.

Trimester: First
Period: Fetus
Weeks: 9 - 12
Size: 3 in. 1 oz.
Major Developments: Rapid growth and interconnections of all organ systems permit such new competencies as body and limb movements, swallowing, digestion of nutrients, urination. External genitalia form.

Trimester: Second
Period: Fetus
Weeks: 13 - 24
Size: 14 - 15 in. 2lb.
Major Developments: Fetus grows rapidly, Fetal movements are felt by the mother, and fetal heartbeat can be heard. Fetus is covered by vernix to prevent chapping; it also reacts to bright lights and loud sounds

Trimester: Third
Period: Fetus
Weeks: 25 -38
Size: 19 - 21 in. 7 - 8 lb.
Major Developments: Growth continues and all organ systems mature in preparation for birth. Fetus reaches the age of viability and becomes more regular and predictable in its sleep cycles and motor activity. Layer of fat develops under the skin. Activity becomes less frequent and sleep more frequent during last 2 weeks before birth.

So, depending on your personal opinion, it could be anywhere from Zygote to Viability that you find acceptable. Personally I'm going with Second trimester, probably, I don't know, I would never abort a baby though, cause I'm a guy.

Ahnimus

Blastocyst - Intracellular Mass

Trimester: First
Period: Zygote
Weeks: 1
Major Developments: One-celled zygote divides and becomes a blastocyst

So, now you know, if you didn't know before. When they refer to Embryonic Stem Cell research. It's not a fetus.

kenny olav

VictoryGin wrote:

huh? the so-called 'partial-birth abortion ban act of 2003' was declared unconstitutional by the courts. it was too vague and would have outlawed procedures down to 12 weeks and there was no health exception for the woman. not to mention that there is no medical procedure called a 'partial-birth abortion'.

furthermore, women who get abortions after 12 weeks, which are the minority by the way, usually don't do so because they couldn't decide. although, that is a big decision that some accuse women of taking too lightly even (we can never win). there are so many restrictions put in place in different states that make it very hard for some women to get a procedure before 12 weeks--waiting periods, cost, parental restrictions, it takes a bit to know you're pregnant, it takes even longer to get into one of the very few clinics left, etc. some women must travel out of state, which they need to save even more money for. there are so many reasons why one gets a procedure after 12 weeks, and i don't think it's your place to decide for them.

I agree with all of that, but suppose the woman who is having an abortion at 13 weeks did not have any obstructions to make her have to wait that long?

Vedderlution_Baby

VictoryGin wrote:

huh? the so-called 'partial-birth abortion ban act of 2003' was declared unconstitutional by the courts. it was too vague and would have outlawed procedures down to 12 weeks and there was no health exception for the woman. not to mention that there is no medical procedure called a 'partial-birth abortion'.

furthermore, women who get abortions after 12 weeks, which are the minority by the way, usually don't do so because they couldn't decide. although, that is a big decision that some accuse women of taking too lightly even (we can never win). there are so many restrictions put in place in different states that make it very hard for some women to get a procedure before 12 weeks--waiting periods, cost, parental restrictions, it takes a bit to know you're pregnant, it takes even longer to get into one of the very few clinics left, etc. some women must travel out of state, which they need to save even more money for. there are so many reasons why one gets a procedure after 12 weeks, and i don't think it's your place to decide for them.

Thanks for the info. I had no idea about the stuff you mentioned. And I'm definitely not trying to decide for them.

VictoryGin

Kenny Olav wrote:

I agree with all of that, but suppose the woman who is having an abortion at 13 weeks did not have any obstructions to make her have to wait that long?

ultimately i think that's up to the woman. in my past experience working with women, there was always something. i was in a state that didn't have as many procedural restrictions (so i met many people from other states) but there is always the financial aspect and just life factors that affected the time. it's not uncommon for young women to be further along because they're not as aware of their bodies, or they're scared to tell their parents (especially when there was abuse or incest involved), or usually they're in denial. stuff like that happens too. everyone had reasons and i think that's enough. that is a very personal decision and it's not my place to judge.

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

Thanks for the info. I had no idea about the stuff you mentioned. And I'm definitely not trying to decide for them.

yeah, i'm a little sensitive when it comes to this stuff. i have been told too many stories that are just so heartbreaking. and i normally don't have feelings .

Vedderlution_Baby

VictoryGin wrote:

yeah, i'm a little sensitive when it comes to this stuff. i have been told too many stories that are just so heartbreaking. and i normally don't have feelings .

It's understandable. One thing that instantly upsets me and pisses me off are the people who picket outside of abortion clinics. I mean, fuck people, you don't know what happened to that girl. This girl could be going in there because she was raped. She's already been violently assaulted, she's probably sitting there blaming herself, theres a 99% chance that she's feeling guilty about getting an abortion already and here comes the picket line....calling her whore...slut....killer...sinner. That's what instantly pisses me off.

CorporateWhore

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

It's understandable. One thing that instantly upsets me and pisses me off are the people who picket outside of abortion clinics. I mean, fuck people, you don't know what happened to that girl. This girl could be going in there because she was raped. She's already been violently assaulted, she's probably sitting there blaming herself, theres a 99% chance that she's feeling guilty about getting an abortion already and here comes the picket line....calling her whore...slut....killer...sinner. That's what instantly pisses me off.

What's interesting about women who want abortions? Pro-Life groups show women videos of abortions. You know what happens? 90% of the women don't want to go through with their abortion.

Just from showing a video of an abortion. That's how grotesque and barbaric abortion is.

VictoryGin

CorporateWhore wrote:

What's interesting about women who want abortions? Pro-Life groups show women videos of abortions. You know what happens? 90% of the women don't want to go through with their abortion.

Just from showing a video of an abortion. That's how grotesque and barbaric abortion is.

oh, really?

miller8966

VictoryGin wrote:

oh, really?

I believe it.

CorporateWhore

VictoryGin wrote:

oh, really?

I'm sure you've seen an abortion occur.

It's disgusting, yes?

VictoryGin

CorporateWhore wrote:

I'm sure you've seen an abortion occur.

It's disgusting, yes?

not moreso than other surgeries.

oh i wasn't going to ask, but what the hell. so what video is this that pro-life groups show and where did 90% come from?

CorporateWhore

VictoryGin wrote:

not moreso than other surgeries.

oh i wasn't going to ask, but what the hell. so what video is this that pro-life groups show and where did 90% come from?

Women tend to be pretty broken up from having abortions. Dr. Lillie Epps visited my campus recently. She had 2 abortions and has offered counselling to many women who have had abortions. She is now pro-life, but she has said that women almost always feel like they've had a great loss. They feel bereaved.

When I had my wisdom teeth taken out (surgical procedure), I didn't feel bereaved. I didn't feel bad at all about the procedure. Why? Because a living, growing organism wasn't ripped from my body and tossed in a zip-loc bag.

Abortion cannot be simply understood as a surgical procedure. For the women that have abortions, it is most certainly more than that.

I don't really have stats on the 90%, but I heard it from a friend. It could be completely bogus, but I don't think that's the point. I think if a woman had to see an abortion before she did it, then she wouldn't want to do it.