A human fetus is little more than a maggot as far as consciousness goes. Isn't that the determining factor on ethics?
I mean, how many people remember being a fetus?
Probably none that's because the BRAIN isn't developed completely.
Precisely why I'm against abortion law, but I'd probably abstain from the "maggot" language. The brain develops very quickly along with the associated consciousness. Those who seek to devide the human from the unhuman are not wrong to do so....they simply must be very wary.
If we are to divide the human from the not quite human (ie the unborn at certain stages) then I think there needs to be a clear line where this takes place in law. If the law states that during the early stages of pregnancy (when the baby is an assortment of cells and the brain hasen't formed and their is no conciousness) then any point after that abortion should not be a widely available option other than in the most extreme of cases. I don't really understand how a baby that is born just after pregancy is any different from an aborted foetus at say 6 months.
The wind is blowing cold
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
Some people have tried to draw the line at consciousness.
But when we are conscious is hotly debated. Can anyone remember being conscious prior to learning to speak?
It's quite wide-spread, the belief that without language we are not conscious. For most thoughts come in the form of covert speech.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Some people have tried to draw the line at consciousness.
But when we are conscious is hotly debated. Can anyone remember being conscious prior to learning to speak?
It's quite wide-spread, the belief that without language we are not conscious. For most thoughts come in the form of covert speech.
Well a baby doesn't speak until about 12 months or so. Are we going to declare humanity at 12 months of age? What about people who can't communicate in any form due to severe disablities?
The wind is blowing cold
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
Well a baby doesn't speak until about 12 months or so. Are we going to declare humanity at 12 months of age? What about people who can't communicate in any form due to severe disablities?
No, I don't think so, the brain is fully developed at around 20 years of age. So that seems like as good a mark as any.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
due to being medicated, i can't really convey lucid thoughts anymore. instead i'll just post this. http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pain.htm it has a few interesting opinions regarding fetus pain.
No, I don't think so, the brain is fully developed at around 20 years of age. So that seems like as good a mark as any.
LOL if thats a joke....but seriously there has to an effort to have some sort of line placed in the law. How can someone say that an unborn at 6 months of age can be aborted and feel okay with that?
The wind is blowing cold
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
LOL if thats a joke....but seriously there has to an effort to have some sort of line placed in the law. How can someone say that an unborn at 6 months of age can be aborted and feel okay with that?
I'll post some hardcore facts in a few mins, ok?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Trimester: First
Period: Zygote
Weeks: 1
Major Developments: One-celled zygote divides and becomes a blastocyst
Trimester: First
Period: Zygote
Weeks: 2
Major Devleopments: Blastocyst implants into uterine wall; structure that nourish and protect the organism - aminion, chorion, yolk sac, placenta, umbilical cord - begin to form.
Trimester: First
Period: Embryo
Weeks: 3 - 4
Size: 1/4 in.
Major Developments: Brain, spinal cord, and heart form, as do the rudimentary structures that will become the eyes, ears, nose, mouth and limbs.
Trimester: First
Period: Embryo
Weeks: 5 - 8
Size: 1 in. 1/4 oz.
Major Developments: External body structures (eyes, ears, limbs) and internal organs form. Embryo produces its own blood and can now move.
Trimester: First
Period: Fetus
Weeks: 9 - 12
Size: 3 in. 1 oz.
Major Developments: Rapid growth and interconnections of all organ systems permit such new competencies as body and limb movements, swallowing, digestion of nutrients, urination. External genitalia form.
Trimester: Second
Period: Fetus
Weeks: 13 - 24
Size: 14 - 15 in. 2lb.
Major Developments: Fetus grows rapidly, Fetal movements are felt by the mother, and fetal heartbeat can be heard. Fetus is covered by vernix to prevent chapping; it also reacts to bright lights and loud sounds
Trimester: Third
Period: Fetus
Weeks: 25 -38
Size: 19 - 21 in. 7 - 8 lb.
Major Developments: Growth continues and all organ systems mature in preparation for birth. Fetus reaches the age of viability and becomes more regular and predictable in its sleep cycles and motor activity. Layer of fat develops under the skin. Activity becomes less frequent and sleep more frequent during last 2 weeks before birth.
So, depending on your personal opinion, it could be anywhere from Zygote to Viability that you find acceptable. Personally I'm going with Second trimester, probably, I don't know, I would never abort a baby though, cause I'm a guy.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Trimester: First
Period: Zygote
Weeks: 1
Major Developments: One-celled zygote divides and becomes a blastocyst
So, now you know, if you didn't know before. When they refer to Embryonic Stem Cell research. It's not a fetus.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
huh? the so-called 'partial-birth abortion ban act of 2003' was declared unconstitutional by the courts. it was too vague and would have outlawed procedures down to 12 weeks and there was no health exception for the woman. not to mention that there is no medical procedure called a 'partial-birth abortion'.
furthermore, women who get abortions after 12 weeks, which are the minority by the way, usually don't do so because they couldn't decide. although, that is a big decision that some accuse women of taking too lightly even (we can never win). there are so many restrictions put in place in different states that make it very hard for some women to get a procedure before 12 weeks--waiting periods, cost, parental restrictions, it takes a bit to know you're pregnant, it takes even longer to get into one of the very few clinics left, etc. some women must travel out of state, which they need to save even more money for. there are so many reasons why one gets a procedure after 12 weeks, and i don't think it's your place to decide for them.
I agree with all of that, but suppose the woman who is having an abortion at 13 weeks did not have any obstructions to make her have to wait that long?
huh? the so-called 'partial-birth abortion ban act of 2003' was declared unconstitutional by the courts. it was too vague and would have outlawed procedures down to 12 weeks and there was no health exception for the woman. not to mention that there is no medical procedure called a 'partial-birth abortion'.
furthermore, women who get abortions after 12 weeks, which are the minority by the way, usually don't do so because they couldn't decide. although, that is a big decision that some accuse women of taking too lightly even (we can never win). there are so many restrictions put in place in different states that make it very hard for some women to get a procedure before 12 weeks--waiting periods, cost, parental restrictions, it takes a bit to know you're pregnant, it takes even longer to get into one of the very few clinics left, etc. some women must travel out of state, which they need to save even more money for. there are so many reasons why one gets a procedure after 12 weeks, and i don't think it's your place to decide for them.
Thanks for the info. I had no idea about the stuff you mentioned. And I'm definitely not trying to decide for them.
I agree with all of that, but suppose the woman who is having an abortion at 13 weeks did not have any obstructions to make her have to wait that long?
ultimately i think that's up to the woman. in my past experience working with women, there was always something. i was in a state that didn't have as many procedural restrictions (so i met many people from other states) but there is always the financial aspect and just life factors that affected the time. it's not uncommon for young women to be further along because they're not as aware of their bodies, or they're scared to tell their parents (especially when there was abuse or incest involved), or usually they're in denial. stuff like that happens too. everyone had reasons and i think that's enough. that is a very personal decision and it's not my place to judge.
Thanks for the info. I had no idea about the stuff you mentioned. And I'm definitely not trying to decide for them.
yeah, i'm a little sensitive when it comes to this stuff. i have been told too many stories that are just so heartbreaking. and i normally don't have feelings .
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
yeah, i'm a little sensitive when it comes to this stuff. i have been told too many stories that are just so heartbreaking. and i normally don't have feelings .
It's understandable. One thing that instantly upsets me and pisses me off are the people who picket outside of abortion clinics. I mean, fuck people, you don't know what happened to that girl. This girl could be going in there because she was raped. She's already been violently assaulted, she's probably sitting there blaming herself, theres a 99% chance that she's feeling guilty about getting an abortion already and here comes the picket line....calling her whore...slut....killer...sinner. That's what instantly pisses me off.
It's understandable. One thing that instantly upsets me and pisses me off are the people who picket outside of abortion clinics. I mean, fuck people, you don't know what happened to that girl. This girl could be going in there because she was raped. She's already been violently assaulted, she's probably sitting there blaming herself, theres a 99% chance that she's feeling guilty about getting an abortion already and here comes the picket line....calling her whore...slut....killer...sinner. That's what instantly pisses me off.
What's interesting about women who want abortions? Pro-Life groups show women videos of abortions. You know what happens? 90% of the women don't want to go through with their abortion.
Just from showing a video of an abortion. That's how grotesque and barbaric abortion is.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
What's interesting about women who want abortions? Pro-Life groups show women videos of abortions. You know what happens? 90% of the women don't want to go through with their abortion.
Just from showing a video of an abortion. That's how grotesque and barbaric abortion is.
oh, really?
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
oh i wasn't going to ask, but what the hell. so what video is this that pro-life groups show and where did 90% come from?
Women tend to be pretty broken up from having abortions. Dr. Lillie Epps visited my campus recently. She had 2 abortions and has offered counselling to many women who have had abortions. She is now pro-life, but she has said that women almost always feel like they've had a great loss. They feel bereaved.
When I had my wisdom teeth taken out (surgical procedure), I didn't feel bereaved. I didn't feel bad at all about the procedure. Why? Because a living, growing organism wasn't ripped from my body and tossed in a zip-loc bag.
Abortion cannot be simply understood as a surgical procedure. For the women that have abortions, it is most certainly more than that.
I don't really have stats on the 90%, but I heard it from a friend. It could be completely bogus, but I don't think that's the point. I think if a woman had to see an abortion before she did it, then she wouldn't want to do it.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Women tend to be pretty broken up from having abortions. Dr. Lillie Epps visited my campus recently. She had 2 abortions and has offered counselling to many women who have had abortions. She is now pro-life, but she has said that women almost always feel like they've had a great loss. They feel bereaved.
When I had my wisdom teeth taken out (surgical procedure), I didn't feel bereaved. I didn't feel bad at all about the procedure. Why? Because a living, growing organism wasn't ripped from my body and tossed in a zip-loc bag.
Abortion cannot be simply understood as a surgical procedure. For the women that have abortions, it is most certainly more than that.
I don't really have stats on the 90%, but I heard it from a friend. It could be completely bogus, but I don't think that's the point. I think if a woman had to see an abortion before she did it, then she wouldn't want to do it.
i don't think i can even begin to respond to all of this. do you really think that women would have absolutely no feelings at all after they have a surgical procedure in a climate in which they are made to feel so guilty about it? a society in which women are criticized for pretty much anything they do or don't do sexually? a climate in which they are sometimes called baby-killers when they go for a procedure? did you have your wisdom teeth out in that kind of environment?
oh and those prolife people who show abortion videos. well, if it's the silent scream then this will have to stop there. that video is bullshit.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
Not to be a dick, but which percentile do you fall in? I just think it is funny that everyone thinks everyone else is an idiot......but they never think they are one of them. I do agree people have issues, but I wouldn't say 95%.......
Cheers,
NEWAGEHIPPIE
Keep your eyes open, eventually something will happen....
i don't think i can even begin to respond to all of this. do you really think that women would have absolutely no feelings at all after they have a surgical procedure in a climate in which they are made to feel so guilty about it? a society in which women are criticized for pretty much anything they do or don't do sexually? a climate in which they are sometimes called baby-killers when they go for a procedure? did you have your wisdom teeth out in that kind of environment?
These are all valid questions and concerns, but please keep in mind that we can't have it both ways. We cannot demand a woman's right to have an abortion based on a "her body, her choice" platform of individual freedom but then protest when people speak up against such choices using their own freedom of choice.
A person who truly believes that their individual sovereignty to control their own body using their own mind is a fundamental right is not someone who is going to be enslaved by the guilt others may attempt to place on her for her choices.
I have little more than disdain for those who actively attempt to inflict guilt on a woman who chooses to have an abortion, but I also have little sympathy for a woman who says "my body, my choice" while at the same time allowing that guilt to play a role in the way she views herself or her decisions.
These are all valid questions and concerns, but please keep in mind that we can't have it both ways. We cannot demand a woman's right to have an abortion based on a "her body, her choice" platform of individual freedom but then protest when people speak up against such choices using their own freedom of choice.
A person who truly believes that their individual sovereignty to control their own body using their own mind is a fundamental right is not someone who is going to be enslaved by the guilt others may attempt to place on her for her choices.
I have little more than disdain for those who actively attempt to inflict guilt on a woman who chooses to have an abortion, but I also have little sympathy for a woman who says "my body, my choice" while at the same time allowing that guilt to play a role in the way she views herself or her decisions.
You're certainly entitled to your point of view. I can very easily see a person believing in the right to control their body in terms of having an abortion, and at the same time having emotional issues on an entirely different level that are out of synch with the person's general stance--emotions that are devastating. This is the problem. We've got numerous levels operating inside going on at one time--some conscious, some less so. And yes, I realize you said "someone who TRULY believes that their individual sovereignty to control their own body using their own mind is a fundamental right is not someone who is going to be enslaved by the guilt others". People don't operate as purely logical beings, though, even the most seeming logical of us.
I personally have much sympathy and empathy towards a person who says "my body, my choice", and who also feels guilt and pain. It's a very, very human way to be. These situations are immensely complicated. Particularly since women tend to operate in predominately emotional ways with decision making (70% are "feelers" according to the Myers-Briggs personality typing, meaning they tend to base decision making on emotional issues.) What I see as very difficult is that even if we provide women a non-judgmental place to accumulate information and within which to come to their very personal decisions, we can't overlook that these same women have all been wired emotionally with the general morals we all have. We can logically override our emotional wiring to make decisions. But we can't logically override our emotional programming in terms of what we feel about the decision, based what has been ingrained in us througout our lives. Rather, we must deal with the emotions, in order to resolve them. Yes, I definitely have empathy for anyone who has come close to this type of decision and has felt the pain and guilt along with the decision making.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
You're certainly entitled to your point of view. I can very easily see a person believing in the right to control their body in terms of having an abortion, and at the same time having emotional issues on an entirely different level that are out of synch with the person's general stance--emotions that are devastating. This is the problem. We've got numerous levels operating inside going on at one time--some conscious, some less so. And yes, I realize you said "someone who TRULY believes that their individual sovereignty to control their own body using their own mind is a fundamental right is not someone who is going to be enslaved by the guilt others". People don't operate as purely logical beings, though, even the most seeming logical of us.
I don't disagree with this at all. However, I do have one question. I have little doubt that the anti-abortion zealots act largely on their emotions regarding abortion and are often wonderful examples of those who hold contradictory moralities. Should I give them a similar pass or sympathy for their shortcomings?
I personally have much sympathy and empathy towards a person who says "my body, my choice", and who also feels guilt and pain. It's a very, very human way to be. These situations are immensely complicated. Particularly since women tend to operate in predominately emotional ways with decision making (70% are "feelers" according to the Myers-Briggs personality typing, meaning they tend to base decision making on emotional issues.) What I see as very difficult is that even if we provide women a non-judgmental place to accumulate information and within which to come to their very personal decisions, we can't overlook that these same women have all been wired emotionally with the general morals we all have. We can logically override our emotional wiring to make decisions. But we can't logically override our emotional programming in terms of what we feel about the decision, based what has been ingrained in us througout our lives. Rather, we must deal with the emotions, in order to resolve them. Yes, I definitely have empathy for anyone who has come close to this type of decision and has felt the pain and guilt along with the decision making.
You're absolutely correct -- we cannot override our emotional wiring, nor should we ever seek to do so. However, we can control how it affects our decisions and, more importantly, we must recognize that our emotions are no one else's but our own.
I don't disagree with this at all. However, I do have one question. I have little doubt that the anti-abortion zealots act largely on their emotions regarding abortion and are often wonderful examples of those who hold contradictory moralities. Should I give them a similar pass or sympathy for their shortcomings?
I'm anti-abortion, myself (although pro-choice). I think you well know that I am held accountable for my own contradictions in each moment of each day. I personally feel empathy towards people struggling with their problems, specifically ones I can relate to and understand. I do understand struggling with contradictions on many levels. I understand being closed-minded, intolerant and judgmental, personally, by my own direct experience.
You're absolutely correct -- we cannot override our emotional wiring, nor should we ever seek to do so. However, we can control how it affects our decisions and, more importantly, we must recognize that our emotions are no one else's but our own.
When we recognize how our emotions affect our decisions, yes we can learn to gain control over our decision making and for many it can be a long, painful growth process with peaks and valleys. And yes, definitely, our emotions are ours to own, fully. On all sides of any fence. The bottom line, again, is if a woman is struggling with her emotions, particularly in a case like abortion, whether she knows her rights or not, I would have empathy for her, not disdain.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I'm anti-abortion, myself (although pro-choice). I think you well know that I am held accountable for my own contradictions in each moment of each day. I personally feel empathy towards people struggling with their problems, specifically ones I can relate to and understand. I do understand struggling with contradictions on many levels. I understand being closed-minded, intolerant and judgmental, personally, by my own direct experience.
Cool.
When we recognize how our emotions affect our decisions, yes we can learn to gain control over our decision making and for many it can be a long, painful growth process with peaks and valleys. And yes, definitely, our emotions are ours to own, fully. On all sides of any fence. The bottom line, again, is if a woman is struggling with her emotions, particularly in a case like abortion, whether she knows her rights or not, I would have empathy for her, not disdain.
I think you may have misread my earlier post. I don't feel disdain for a woman struggling with these kinds of choices, regardless of how conflicted her mind may be or why that may be the case. I certainly see where she is coming from. I do feel some disdain for those who actively attempt to infect the mind of that woman with guilt, but I also understand where they're coming from to some extent. Empathy is deserved for both. But sympathy, for neither, IMO. But I certainly don't pretend to have the right to be an arbiter on you where your (or anyone else's) sympathy should lie.
I think you may have misread my earlier post. I don't feel disdain for a woman struggling with these kinds of choices, regardless of how conflicted her mind may be or why that may be the case. I certainly see where she is coming from. I do feel some disdain for those who actively attempt to infect the mind of that woman with guilt, but I also understand where they're coming from to some extent. Empathy is deserved for both. But sympathy, for neither, IMO. But I certainly don't pretend to have the right to be an arbiter on you where your (or anyone else's) sympathy should lie.
You are correct--I did blur your comments in that post. I apologize for my misunderstanding. I agree with the "disdain" part in theory. What I actually did disagree with is that you were pointing to the conflicts of the person considering an abortion as though they are a "flaw". I feel those conflicts are completely, entirely normal, "flawed" or not. If a person were in there and felt totally behind the "it's my body" thing' on one level and felt swayed and affected by guilt on another hand, I can understand that, based on what I understand of our brain functioning. The thing, too, from my understanding is that the woman may make an intellectual decision, based on information, and yet later have to face the emotional aspects she was not initially aware would be an issue. People can't really cope with what is unconscious, until it becomes conscious. I'm not sure of your line between empathy and sympathy (nor my own) and of course, as I said before, you're entitled to your view.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Not to be a dick, but which percentile do you fall in? I just think it is funny that everyone thinks everyone else is an idiot......but they never think they are one of them. I do agree people have issues, but I wouldn't say 95%.......
Women tend to be pretty broken up from having abortions. Dr. Lillie Epps visited my campus recently. She had 2 abortions and has offered counselling to many women who have had abortions. She is now pro-life, but she has said that women almost always feel like they've had a great loss. They feel bereaved.
When I had my wisdom teeth taken out (surgical procedure), I didn't feel bereaved. I didn't feel bad at all about the procedure. Why? Because a living, growing organism wasn't ripped from my body and tossed in a zip-loc bag.
Abortion cannot be simply understood as a surgical procedure. For the women that have abortions, it is most certainly more than that.
I don't really have stats on the 90%, but I heard it from a friend. It could be completely bogus, but I don't think that's the point. I think if a woman had to see an abortion before she did it, then she wouldn't want to do it.
Comments
Precisely why I'm against abortion law, but I'd probably abstain from the "maggot" language. The brain develops very quickly along with the associated consciousness. Those who seek to devide the human from the unhuman are not wrong to do so....they simply must be very wary.
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
So what are we becoming?
Where did we go wrong?
But when we are conscious is hotly debated. Can anyone remember being conscious prior to learning to speak?
It's quite wide-spread, the belief that without language we are not conscious. For most thoughts come in the form of covert speech.
Well a baby doesn't speak until about 12 months or so. Are we going to declare humanity at 12 months of age? What about people who can't communicate in any form due to severe disablities?
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
So what are we becoming?
Where did we go wrong?
No, I don't think so, the brain is fully developed at around 20 years of age. So that seems like as good a mark as any.
LOL if thats a joke....but seriously there has to an effort to have some sort of line placed in the law. How can someone say that an unborn at 6 months of age can be aborted and feel okay with that?
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
So what are we becoming?
Where did we go wrong?
I'll post some hardcore facts in a few mins, ok?
Ok, now with all seriousness. Humour asside.
Trimester: First
Period: Zygote
Weeks: 1
Major Developments: One-celled zygote divides and becomes a blastocyst
Trimester: First
Period: Zygote
Weeks: 2
Major Devleopments: Blastocyst implants into uterine wall; structure that nourish and protect the organism - aminion, chorion, yolk sac, placenta, umbilical cord - begin to form.
Trimester: First
Period: Embryo
Weeks: 3 - 4
Size: 1/4 in.
Major Developments: Brain, spinal cord, and heart form, as do the rudimentary structures that will become the eyes, ears, nose, mouth and limbs.
Trimester: First
Period: Embryo
Weeks: 5 - 8
Size: 1 in. 1/4 oz.
Major Developments: External body structures (eyes, ears, limbs) and internal organs form. Embryo produces its own blood and can now move.
Trimester: First
Period: Fetus
Weeks: 9 - 12
Size: 3 in. 1 oz.
Major Developments: Rapid growth and interconnections of all organ systems permit such new competencies as body and limb movements, swallowing, digestion of nutrients, urination. External genitalia form.
Trimester: Second
Period: Fetus
Weeks: 13 - 24
Size: 14 - 15 in. 2lb.
Major Developments: Fetus grows rapidly, Fetal movements are felt by the mother, and fetal heartbeat can be heard. Fetus is covered by vernix to prevent chapping; it also reacts to bright lights and loud sounds
Trimester: Third
Period: Fetus
Weeks: 25 -38
Size: 19 - 21 in. 7 - 8 lb.
Major Developments: Growth continues and all organ systems mature in preparation for birth. Fetus reaches the age of viability and becomes more regular and predictable in its sleep cycles and motor activity. Layer of fat develops under the skin. Activity becomes less frequent and sleep more frequent during last 2 weeks before birth.
So, depending on your personal opinion, it could be anywhere from Zygote to Viability that you find acceptable. Personally I'm going with Second trimester, probably, I don't know, I would never abort a baby though, cause I'm a guy.
Trimester: First
Period: Zygote
Weeks: 1
Major Developments: One-celled zygote divides and becomes a blastocyst
So, now you know, if you didn't know before. When they refer to Embryonic Stem Cell research. It's not a fetus.
I agree with all of that, but suppose the woman who is having an abortion at 13 weeks did not have any obstructions to make her have to wait that long?
Thanks for the info. I had no idea about the stuff you mentioned. And I'm definitely not trying to decide for them.
ultimately i think that's up to the woman. in my past experience working with women, there was always something. i was in a state that didn't have as many procedural restrictions (so i met many people from other states) but there is always the financial aspect and just life factors that affected the time. it's not uncommon for young women to be further along because they're not as aware of their bodies, or they're scared to tell their parents (especially when there was abuse or incest involved), or usually they're in denial. stuff like that happens too. everyone had reasons and i think that's enough. that is a very personal decision and it's not my place to judge.
yeah, i'm a little sensitive when it comes to this stuff. i have been told too many stories that are just so heartbreaking. and i normally don't have feelings
cross the river to the eastside
It's understandable. One thing that instantly upsets me and pisses me off are the people who picket outside of abortion clinics. I mean, fuck people, you don't know what happened to that girl. This girl could be going in there because she was raped. She's already been violently assaulted, she's probably sitting there blaming herself, theres a 99% chance that she's feeling guilty about getting an abortion already and here comes the picket line....calling her whore...slut....killer...sinner. That's what instantly pisses me off.
What's interesting about women who want abortions? Pro-Life groups show women videos of abortions. You know what happens? 90% of the women don't want to go through with their abortion.
Just from showing a video of an abortion. That's how grotesque and barbaric abortion is.
-Enoch Powell
oh, really?
cross the river to the eastside
I believe it.
I'm sure you've seen an abortion occur.
It's disgusting, yes?
-Enoch Powell
not moreso than other surgeries.
oh i wasn't going to ask, but what the hell. so what video is this that pro-life groups show and where did 90% come from?
cross the river to the eastside
Women tend to be pretty broken up from having abortions. Dr. Lillie Epps visited my campus recently. She had 2 abortions and has offered counselling to many women who have had abortions. She is now pro-life, but she has said that women almost always feel like they've had a great loss. They feel bereaved.
When I had my wisdom teeth taken out (surgical procedure), I didn't feel bereaved. I didn't feel bad at all about the procedure. Why? Because a living, growing organism wasn't ripped from my body and tossed in a zip-loc bag.
Abortion cannot be simply understood as a surgical procedure. For the women that have abortions, it is most certainly more than that.
I don't really have stats on the 90%, but I heard it from a friend. It could be completely bogus, but I don't think that's the point. I think if a woman had to see an abortion before she did it, then she wouldn't want to do it.
-Enoch Powell
i don't think i can even begin to respond to all of this. do you really think that women would have absolutely no feelings at all after they have a surgical procedure in a climate in which they are made to feel so guilty about it? a society in which women are criticized for pretty much anything they do or don't do sexually? a climate in which they are sometimes called baby-killers when they go for a procedure? did you have your wisdom teeth out in that kind of environment?
oh and those prolife people who show abortion videos. well, if it's the silent scream then this will have to stop there. that video is bullshit.
cross the river to the eastside
Not to be a dick, but which percentile do you fall in? I just think it is funny that everyone thinks everyone else is an idiot......but they never think they are one of them. I do agree people have issues, but I wouldn't say 95%.......
NEWAGEHIPPIE
Keep your eyes open, eventually something will happen....
These are all valid questions and concerns, but please keep in mind that we can't have it both ways. We cannot demand a woman's right to have an abortion based on a "her body, her choice" platform of individual freedom but then protest when people speak up against such choices using their own freedom of choice.
A person who truly believes that their individual sovereignty to control their own body using their own mind is a fundamental right is not someone who is going to be enslaved by the guilt others may attempt to place on her for her choices.
I have little more than disdain for those who actively attempt to inflict guilt on a woman who chooses to have an abortion, but I also have little sympathy for a woman who says "my body, my choice" while at the same time allowing that guilt to play a role in the way she views herself or her decisions.
I personally have much sympathy and empathy towards a person who says "my body, my choice", and who also feels guilt and pain. It's a very, very human way to be. These situations are immensely complicated. Particularly since women tend to operate in predominately emotional ways with decision making (70% are "feelers" according to the Myers-Briggs personality typing, meaning they tend to base decision making on emotional issues.) What I see as very difficult is that even if we provide women a non-judgmental place to accumulate information and within which to come to their very personal decisions, we can't overlook that these same women have all been wired emotionally with the general morals we all have. We can logically override our emotional wiring to make decisions. But we can't logically override our emotional programming in terms of what we feel about the decision, based what has been ingrained in us througout our lives. Rather, we must deal with the emotions, in order to resolve them. Yes, I definitely have empathy for anyone who has come close to this type of decision and has felt the pain and guilt along with the decision making.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I don't disagree with this at all. However, I do have one question. I have little doubt that the anti-abortion zealots act largely on their emotions regarding abortion and are often wonderful examples of those who hold contradictory moralities. Should I give them a similar pass or sympathy for their shortcomings?
You're absolutely correct -- we cannot override our emotional wiring, nor should we ever seek to do so. However, we can control how it affects our decisions and, more importantly, we must recognize that our emotions are no one else's but our own.
When we recognize how our emotions affect our decisions, yes we can learn to gain control over our decision making and for many it can be a long, painful growth process with peaks and valleys. And yes, definitely, our emotions are ours to own, fully. On all sides of any fence. The bottom line, again, is if a woman is struggling with her emotions, particularly in a case like abortion, whether she knows her rights or not, I would have empathy for her, not disdain.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Cool.
I think you may have misread my earlier post. I don't feel disdain for a woman struggling with these kinds of choices, regardless of how conflicted her mind may be or why that may be the case. I certainly see where she is coming from. I do feel some disdain for those who actively attempt to infect the mind of that woman with guilt, but I also understand where they're coming from to some extent. Empathy is deserved for both. But sympathy, for neither, IMO. But I certainly don't pretend to have the right to be an arbiter on you where your (or anyone else's) sympathy should lie.
You are correct--I did blur your comments in that post. I apologize for my misunderstanding. I agree with the "disdain" part in theory. What I actually did disagree with is that you were pointing to the conflicts of the person considering an abortion as though they are a "flaw". I feel those conflicts are completely, entirely normal, "flawed" or not. If a person were in there and felt totally behind the "it's my body" thing' on one level and felt swayed and affected by guilt on another hand, I can understand that, based on what I understand of our brain functioning. The thing, too, from my understanding is that the woman may make an intellectual decision, based on information, and yet later have to face the emotional aspects she was not initially aware would be an issue. People can't really cope with what is unconscious, until it becomes conscious. I'm not sure of your line between empathy and sympathy (nor my own) and of course, as I said before, you're entitled to your view.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
im in the 99th percentile.