this struck me as very true. my girlfriend has no intention of being an executive or making tons of money. at some point she wants to raise kids and let the man bring home the bacon. I think a much higher percentage of women feel the same way compared to men
Well, the percentage is certainly higher but it's also quickly shrinking. My own family situation was unique -- my mother worked and my father raised me as a stay at home dad. I have a number of female employees in their 20s and 30s who are also struggling with these issues and seem to be choosing work over family which, 30-40 years ago they likely would not have. And it's certainly right that both men and women have that choice.
I think that is the most important point of your exchanges.
In the department that I manage, I have 4 full time employees and about 20 part time ones. Off hand I think I only have 3 white male employees, so the dymanic is a little different here.
Everyone started out at the same rate... some were promoted and all have been given raises based on their abilities, skills, etc... But a part of the process is attitude and personality. If employee A does their job just as good as employee B, but is quiet and doesn't express themselves as well, they might end up not getting as big of a raise as employee B, who is outgoing and may have even come out and asked for a raise.
It's part of the managing and motivation process... If employee B asks for and is given a bigger raise, they they know my standards will be a little higher, and I might push them more to "prove" they are worth it. To just give employee A the same raise just because the person next to them with the same work ability got one probably won't have the same effect as far as productivity.
Exactly. I definitely agree with this -- thanks for sharing your experience here.
Thanks. I'm here to speak my mind -- this is a good place to do so because of people like you.
And thanks back. I've learned to be very open to changing my preconceptions about such issues because of you and your non-power-struggling, non-abusive, and friendly, interested, very finely nuanced approach.
Completely agree. Not only am I not a sexist (at least on a relative scale), the laws that get proposed around this will treat me like I am. Ironically, the logical result of such legislation will likely force me to be sexist.
I hear you.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
What many don't acknowledge nor take into consideration, but what many many companies are well aware of is our natural brain filters and the fact that how we filter life dramatically affects our potential in specific work fields. For example, 70% of women tend to make their decisions based on their feelings. And 70% of men naturally make their decisions based on logic. In the corporate world, the higher up the ladder one looks, women become much fewer and farther in between. Beyond that, the "average" female way of wiring would make it literally and unalterably unhealthy for a woman to hold "high" positions under usual circumstances, even though there are of course exceptions. (ie: repressing one's natural brain wiring leads to dysfunction and disorder) This information is widely used in business, and for perfectly valid reasoning in finding the "right" person for varying jobs. Lack of awareness of such issues can lead one to simplify the issues as being about sexism when it is actually about knowledge.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
You'll find that the women who demand higher wages for women tend to be socialists. Otherwise, they would recognize the fact that they could just start their own business and be CEO. Then there's one more female CEO! Big deal. The bottom line is: they don't give a shit about the quality of work that these women are putting out. It doesn't matter how good an employee they are.
Women do make up 50% of college admissions, but does that mean they're majoring in the right fields? Are they majoring in Hair Style and Design or are they majoring in Accounting/Engineering/Science?
In my business classes, the majority of students are male. Finance majors tend to make the most money of any profession when they enter the workforce, and most of those majors are males.
This all comes down to a cutthroat attitude in the business world. Some women have it, some women don't. I don't have it. But, men tend to have it more often than women, I gather.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
You'll find that the women who demand higher wages for women tend to be socialists. Otherwise, they would recognize the fact that they could just start their own business and be CEO. Then there's one more female CEO! Big deal.
I think learning to discern details and information might come in handy here. There's relevence in all point of views. Unless you want to tune out significant hunks of what happens around us.
The bottom line is: they don't give a shit about the quality of work that these women are putting out. It doesn't matter how good an employee they are.
It looks to me like you're reducing this to two sides, and right/wrong, rather than being open to appreciating what's actually happening.
Women do make up 50% of college admissions, but does that mean they're majoring in the right fields? Are they majoring in Hair Style and Design or are they majoring in Accounting/Engineering/Science?
If you're going for sensationalism, I'd suggest a dash of subtlety, so that it at least has a realistic air to it.
This all comes down to a cutthroat attitude in the business world. Some women have it, some women don't. I don't have it. But, men tend to have it more often than women, I gather.
Interestingly, it all works out in the end when the cutthroat type "A" personalities drop from heart attacks relatively early in life. I've read about studies where it's ascertained that it's the healthy individual who drops out of the rat-race via breakdown, etc, because they are unable to tune out intelligences, such as emotional ones, that we're generally trained to tune out. Ultimately, it can be a saving grace.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
You'll find that the women who demand higher wages for women tend to be socialists. Otherwise, they would recognize the fact that they could just start their own business and be CEO. Then there's one more female CEO! Big deal. The bottom line is: they don't give a shit about the quality of work that these women are putting out. It doesn't matter how good an employee they are.
because it's just that easy to start a business? some women do start businesses, but considering women traditionally aren't as financially well-off, or having banks refuse women loans--the amount can only be so high.
Women do make up 50% of college admissions, but does that mean they're majoring in the right fields? Are they majoring in Hair Style and Design or are they majoring in Accounting/Engineering/Science?
the wage gap is not figured across professions, but within professions and jobs in which people have the same education and experience level.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
as they've always been in the position of being white males..they haven't a clue and are soo easy to put others down. Its the whole republican "If you work hard you can do anything" and if you don't your just lazy" attitude. Just ignorance. I also have to question the ages of many that have posted on this thread...started reading from beginning and just couldn't believe the immaturity...oh well.
Do you want to be treated as an equal or not?
The only person preventing you or any other female from asking for a raise is you. If I'm treating you as an equal it is very insulting for you to enact legislation because you are unwilling to treat yourself as an equal. You are limiting yourself to an old role model not me. No amount of legislation can help you with this. This last step has to be taken from within.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
because it's just that easy to start a business? some women do start businesses, but considering women traditionally aren't as financially well-off, or having banks refuse women loans--the amount can only be so high.
Why does the word "easy" keep coming into this thread? How is "easy" relevant? It's easy to be a sexist jackass. Should I do that, since "easy" seems to be such an important standard here?
When I started my business, I had a negative net worth and took no loans. I know many people, male and female, who have done the same. It is not easy. It is hard, and risky. But, without trying to sound too self-aggrandizing here, this entire conversation would be meaningless without those of us who have created the jobs so many claim to have a "right" to.
the wage gap is not figured across professions, but within professions and jobs in which people have the same education and experience level.
There's rarely such thing as equal education and experience level. Treating people like averages or stereotypes is the business of sexists and racists. I'd suggest you not adopt plays from their books.
He was making a social point, not a financial point.
Sure! Discrimination can be VERY profitable in some cases.
its economics..and to compare the foot locker folks of discrimination because they have 3/4 of they're space devoted to womens shoes is pretty silly....there was nothing social about his point.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
how the fuck is this a republican thing? how is it wrong? wait, who is ignorant?
white males just assume that women and minorities have the means, back ground, education, culture to do as well as them...we're all creatures of our experiences..and many don't have the luxury of having the same experiences as the white male..hence they don't succeed. Yes there are exceptions. Democrats....affirmative action, raising the minimum wage, heathcare for the poor....Republicans..your on your own, hard work is all it takes. And just read the Republican posts on this forum and this thread.
You'll find that the women who demand higher wages for women tend to be socialists. Otherwise, they would recognize the fact that they could just start their own business and be CEO. Then there's one more female CEO! Big deal. The bottom line is: they don't give a shit about the quality of work that these women are putting out. It doesn't matter how good an employee they are.
Women do make up 50% of college admissions, but does that mean they're majoring in the right fields? Are they majoring in Hair Style and Design or are they majoring in Accounting/Engineering/Science?
In my business classes, the majority of students are male. Finance majors tend to make the most money of any profession when they enter the workforce, and most of those majors are males.
This all comes down to a cutthroat attitude in the business world. Some women have it, some women don't. I don't have it. But, men tend to have it more often than women, I gather.
It all comes down to comfort and who can play golf. If your like me...you play golf....you'll do fine...oh and if you happened to have gone to the same college...bonus. Once you get out in the business world..just dress right, act right..and learn how to play golf.....oh this only applies to white males by the way.
The fact is, you may or may not be sexist--and yet many people are. People try to undermine me due to their perception of me all the time. Now granted I see it happens to you, too--it's about life power abuses in general. I can definitely see the specifics when a man takes issue with my being out of "my place" when really I'm just being centered. It may be about sexism, and yet, really, it's still fundamentally power abuse, which is very generic, and which we all struggle with in our own ways.
we can't help it..men and women...its just to what extent. Also we don't make choices anyway...they're all predetermined...hence the struggle for women and minorities to get a fair shake. As much as farfromglorified tries to be fair he can't. As you and I can't.
Many people have lost out telling me what I can't do.
I'm not trying to threaten or challenge you.....if your human you can't..sorry..its not your fault...and we're all in the same boat. Plus you don't have any choices either...all predetermined from your experiences...and again..this is why its soo hard for people that don't belong to the power group to move ahead. Just human nature....its not wrong..it just is what it is.
we can't help it..men and women...its just to what extent. Also we don't make choices anyway...they're all predetermined...hence the struggle for women and minorities to get a fair shake. As much as farfromglorified tries to be fair he can't. As you and I can't.
You take "predetermined" to mean we don't make individual choice, and that we can't change? Interesting. I find immense power in choice and change. I focus on my personal intentions and on the process and am less focussed on an outcome of "fair" or what-have-you.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Ok. I don't really care what you're doing, short of telling me what I can't do.
if your human you can't..sorry..its not your fault...and we're all in the same boat.
If you feel that your actions are predetermined, then we are in very different boats indeed.
Plus you don't have any choices either...all predetermined from your experiences...and again..this is why its soo hard for people that don't belong to the power group to move ahead. Just human nature....its not wrong..it just is what it is.
Oh shit, in that case none of it really matters then. Disparity in gender pay really doesn't matter if the person writing the checks has no choice in the matter.
You take "predetermined" to mean we don't make individual choice, and that we can't change? Interesting. I find immense power in choice and change. I focus on my personal intentions and on the process and am less focussed on an outcome of "fair" or what-have-you.
even go as far as to say if you had a yellow and a red shirt to "choose" from this morning...your choice was predetermined based on a past experience. And again reason I bring this up is simply to get the point across that women no matter how equal they are in experience or ability have a harder time to succeed then men. You had an interesting post referencing how women are motivated by feelings whereas men facts.....wonder affect on business's performance.
Ok. I don't really care what you're doing, short of telling me what I can't do.
If you feel that your actions are predetermined, then we are in very different boats indeed.
Oh shit, in that case none of it really matters then. Disparity in gender pay really doesn't matter if the person writing the checks has no choice in the matter.
its just uncomfortable for most to realize they really don't have much control over their actions. And we do need legistlation to help offset our inability to make the right choices..hence reason some believe we need affirmative action and rights for women. I think people are enherantly good...but we can't help ourselves. AND that's why so many people voted for George..they couldn't help it....even after he stumbled through the debates.... (-:
its just uncomfortable for most to realize they really don't have much control over their actions.
How could it be uncomfortable?
And we do need legistlation to help offset our inability to make the right choices..
Hehe...what is the "right choice" if choice doesn't exist? Furthermore, how could such a "choice" be "right" if morality deosn't exist, which it could not in a world where people had no ability to choose?
hence reason some believe we need affirmative action and rights for women.
Hence??? You just destroyed any reason why those things would ever arguably exist in the first place.
even go as far as to say if you had a yellow and a red shirt to "choose" from this morning...your choice was predetermined based on a past experience.
Do you see that from our personal daily experience we make choices between "this" or "that"? And that these choices bring consequences that we experience, whether good, bad or indifferent? And that any sense of predetermination could not be played out were it not for our personal choice in each moment? That's high potency in my mind.
And again reason I bring this up is simply to get the point across that women no matter how equal they are in experience or ability have a harder time to succeed then men.
In patriarchical societies, yes. At the same time, men die at a younger age. Also, I know very few women who do not also uphold our patriarchical societies, based on that they live what they know, so it looks to me that we're all in this together, and by putting our heads together, we can find solutions.
You had an interesting post referencing how women are motivated by feelings whereas men facts.....wonder affect on business's performance.
I'm not sure what you are saying here.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Do you see that from our personal daily experience we make choices between "this" or "that"? And that these choices bring consequences that we experience, whether good, bad or indifferent? And that any sense of predetermination could not be played out were it not for our personal choice in each moment? That's high potency in my mind.
In patriarchical societies, yes. At the same time, men die at a younger age. Also, I know very few women who do not also uphold our patriarchical societies, based on that they live what they know, so it looks to me that we're all in this together, and by putting our heads together, we can find solutions.
I'm not sure what you are saying here.
Yes we do know the consequences and based on our experiences we will make the choice. The choice for that moment will be based on experiences from the past. We are a patriarchical society. Last sentence I was just wondering if there were two business's....creating the same thing..and one was motivated by feelings and one by facts...how would the outcomes be different....I know this is a stretch and really in another thread...but.
Hehe...what is the "right choice" if choice doesn't exist? Furthermore, how could such a "choice" be "right" if morality deosn't exist, which it could not in a world where people had no ability to choose?
Hence??? You just destroyed any reason why those things would ever arguably exist in the first place.
Then there is no human action that can be "good" or "bad". Hence my earlier statement:
"Oh shit, in that case none of it really matters then. Disparity in gender pay really doesn't matter if the person writing the checks has no choice in the matter."
Comments
Well, the percentage is certainly higher but it's also quickly shrinking. My own family situation was unique -- my mother worked and my father raised me as a stay at home dad. I have a number of female employees in their 20s and 30s who are also struggling with these issues and seem to be choosing work over family which, 30-40 years ago they likely would not have. And it's certainly right that both men and women have that choice.
Exactly. I definitely agree with this -- thanks for sharing your experience here.
I hear you.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I never did like Margaret Thatcher!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
How exactly does one acquire this skill. Do you burn more calories this way? Sounds Dangerous, but who am I to say?
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
"What's your name?"
"FUCK YOU! THAT"S MY NAME!"
He was making a social point, not a financial point.
Sure! Discrimination can be VERY profitable in some cases.
-Enoch Powell
Women do make up 50% of college admissions, but does that mean they're majoring in the right fields? Are they majoring in Hair Style and Design or are they majoring in Accounting/Engineering/Science?
In my business classes, the majority of students are male. Finance majors tend to make the most money of any profession when they enter the workforce, and most of those majors are males.
This all comes down to a cutthroat attitude in the business world. Some women have it, some women don't. I don't have it. But, men tend to have it more often than women, I gather.
-Enoch Powell
It looks to me like you're reducing this to two sides, and right/wrong, rather than being open to appreciating what's actually happening.
If you're going for sensationalism, I'd suggest a dash of subtlety, so that it at least has a realistic air to it.
Interestingly, it all works out in the end when the cutthroat type "A" personalities drop from heart attacks relatively early in life. I've read about studies where it's ascertained that it's the healthy individual who drops out of the rat-race via breakdown, etc, because they are unable to tune out intelligences, such as emotional ones, that we're generally trained to tune out. Ultimately, it can be a saving grace.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
because it's just that easy to start a business? some women do start businesses, but considering women traditionally aren't as financially well-off, or having banks refuse women loans--the amount can only be so high.
the wage gap is not figured across professions, but within professions and jobs in which people have the same education and experience level.
cross the river to the eastside
The only person preventing you or any other female from asking for a raise is you. If I'm treating you as an equal it is very insulting for you to enact legislation because you are unwilling to treat yourself as an equal. You are limiting yourself to an old role model not me. No amount of legislation can help you with this. This last step has to be taken from within.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Experience level does not equal "number of years at the firm" either.
-Enoch Powell
Why does the word "easy" keep coming into this thread? How is "easy" relevant? It's easy to be a sexist jackass. Should I do that, since "easy" seems to be such an important standard here?
When I started my business, I had a negative net worth and took no loans. I know many people, male and female, who have done the same. It is not easy. It is hard, and risky. But, without trying to sound too self-aggrandizing here, this entire conversation would be meaningless without those of us who have created the jobs so many claim to have a "right" to.
There's rarely such thing as equal education and experience level. Treating people like averages or stereotypes is the business of sexists and racists. I'd suggest you not adopt plays from their books.
its economics..and to compare the foot locker folks of discrimination because they have 3/4 of they're space devoted to womens shoes is pretty silly....there was nothing social about his point.
white males just assume that women and minorities have the means, back ground, education, culture to do as well as them...we're all creatures of our experiences..and many don't have the luxury of having the same experiences as the white male..hence they don't succeed. Yes there are exceptions. Democrats....affirmative action, raising the minimum wage, heathcare for the poor....Republicans..your on your own, hard work is all it takes. And just read the Republican posts on this forum and this thread.
It all comes down to comfort and who can play golf. If your like me...you play golf....you'll do fine...oh and if you happened to have gone to the same college...bonus. Once you get out in the business world..just dress right, act right..and learn how to play golf.....oh this only applies to white males by the way.
we can't help it..men and women...its just to what extent. Also we don't make choices anyway...they're all predetermined...hence the struggle for women and minorities to get a fair shake. As much as farfromglorified tries to be fair he can't. As you and I can't.
Care to back that up?
Many people have lost out telling me what I can't do.
I'm not trying to threaten or challenge you.....if your human you can't..sorry..its not your fault...and we're all in the same boat. Plus you don't have any choices either...all predetermined from your experiences...and again..this is why its soo hard for people that don't belong to the power group to move ahead. Just human nature....its not wrong..it just is what it is.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Ok. I don't really care what you're doing, short of telling me what I can't do.
If you feel that your actions are predetermined, then we are in very different boats indeed.
Oh shit, in that case none of it really matters then. Disparity in gender pay really doesn't matter if the person writing the checks has no choice in the matter.
even go as far as to say if you had a yellow and a red shirt to "choose" from this morning...your choice was predetermined based on a past experience. And again reason I bring this up is simply to get the point across that women no matter how equal they are in experience or ability have a harder time to succeed then men. You had an interesting post referencing how women are motivated by feelings whereas men facts.....wonder affect on business's performance.
its just uncomfortable for most to realize they really don't have much control over their actions. And we do need legistlation to help offset our inability to make the right choices..hence reason some believe we need affirmative action and rights for women. I think people are enherantly good...but we can't help ourselves. AND that's why so many people voted for George..they couldn't help it....even after he stumbled through the debates.... (-:
How could it be uncomfortable?
Hehe...what is the "right choice" if choice doesn't exist? Furthermore, how could such a "choice" be "right" if morality deosn't exist, which it could not in a world where people had no ability to choose?
Hence??? You just destroyed any reason why those things would ever arguably exist in the first place.
In patriarchical societies, yes. At the same time, men die at a younger age. Also, I know very few women who do not also uphold our patriarchical societies, based on that they live what they know, so it looks to me that we're all in this together, and by putting our heads together, we can find solutions.
I'm not sure what you are saying here.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
morality doesn't exist....
Then there is no human action that can be "good" or "bad". Hence my earlier statement:
"Oh shit, in that case none of it really matters then. Disparity in gender pay really doesn't matter if the person writing the checks has no choice in the matter."