Feminism

farfromglorified

jlew24asu wrote:

this struck me as very true. my girlfriend has no intention of being an executive or making tons of money. at some point she wants to raise kids and let the man bring home the bacon. I think a much higher percentage of women feel the same way compared to men

Well, the percentage is certainly higher but it's also quickly shrinking. My own family situation was unique -- my mother worked and my father raised me as a stay at home dad. I have a number of female employees in their 20s and 30s who are also struggling with these issues and seem to be choosing work over family which, 30-40 years ago they likely would not have. And it's certainly right that both men and women have that choice.

farfromglorified

blackredyellow wrote:

I think that is the most important point of your exchanges.

In the department that I manage, I have 4 full time employees and about 20 part time ones. Off hand I think I only have 3 white male employees, so the dymanic is a little different here.

Everyone started out at the same rate... some were promoted and all have been given raises based on their abilities, skills, etc... But a part of the process is attitude and personality. If employee A does their job just as good as employee B, but is quiet and doesn't express themselves as well, they might end up not getting as big of a raise as employee B, who is outgoing and may have even come out and asked for a raise.

It's part of the managing and motivation process... If employee B asks for and is given a bigger raise, they they know my standards will be a little higher, and I might push them more to "prove" they are worth it. To just give employee A the same raise just because the person next to them with the same work ability got one probably won't have the same effect as far as productivity.

Exactly. I definitely agree with this -- thanks for sharing your experience here.

angelica

farfromglorified wrote:

Thanks. I'm here to speak my mind -- this is a good place to do so because of people like you.

And thanks back. I've learned to be very open to changing my preconceptions about such issues because of you and your non-power-struggling, non-abusive, and friendly, interested, very finely nuanced approach.

Completely agree. Not only am I not a sexist (at least on a relative scale), the laws that get proposed around this will treat me like I am. Ironically, the logical result of such legislation will likely force me to be sexist.

I hear you.

angelica

What many don't acknowledge nor take into consideration, but what many many companies are well aware of is our natural brain filters and the fact that how we filter life dramatically affects our potential in specific work fields. For example, 70% of women tend to make their decisions based on their feelings. And 70% of men naturally make their decisions based on logic. In the corporate world, the higher up the ladder one looks, women become much fewer and farther in between. Beyond that, the "average" female way of wiring would make it literally and unalterably unhealthy for a woman to hold "high" positions under usual circumstances, even though there are of course exceptions. (ie: repressing one's natural brain wiring leads to dysfunction and disorder) This information is widely used in business, and for perfectly valid reasoning in finding the "right" person for varying jobs. Lack of awareness of such issues can lead one to simplify the issues as being about sexism when it is actually about knowledge.

Byrnzie

angelica wrote:

the "average" female way of wiring would make it literally and unalterably unhealthy for a woman to hold "high" positions under usual circumstances

I never did like Margaret Thatcher!

angelica

Byrnzie wrote:

I never did like Margaret Thatcher!

mookie9999

CorporateWhore wrote:

During naps I could ride my mountain bike.

How exactly does one acquire this skill. Do you burn more calories this way? Sounds Dangerous, but who am I to say?

CorporateWhore

callen wrote:

and profits. Duh! Go take a business class or two when you get out of high or middle school.

He was making a social point, not a financial point.

Sure! Discrimination can be VERY profitable in some cases.

CorporateWhore

You'll find that the women who demand higher wages for women tend to be socialists. Otherwise, they would recognize the fact that they could just start their own business and be CEO. Then there's one more female CEO! Big deal. The bottom line is: they don't give a shit about the quality of work that these women are putting out. It doesn't matter how good an employee they are.

Women do make up 50% of college admissions, but does that mean they're majoring in the right fields? Are they majoring in Hair Style and Design or are they majoring in Accounting/Engineering/Science?

In my business classes, the majority of students are male. Finance majors tend to make the most money of any profession when they enter the workforce, and most of those majors are males.

This all comes down to a cutthroat attitude in the business world. Some women have it, some women don't. I don't have it. But, men tend to have it more often than women, I gather.

angelica

CorporateWhore wrote:

You'll find that the women who demand higher wages for women tend to be socialists. Otherwise, they would recognize the fact that they could just start their own business and be CEO. Then there's one more female CEO! Big deal.

I think learning to discern details and information might come in handy here. There's relevence in all point of views. Unless you want to tune out significant hunks of what happens around us.

The bottom line is: they don't give a shit about the quality of work that these women are putting out. It doesn't matter how good an employee they are.

It looks to me like you're reducing this to two sides, and right/wrong, rather than being open to appreciating what's actually happening.

Women do make up 50% of college admissions, but does that mean they're majoring in the right fields? Are they majoring in Hair Style and Design or are they majoring in Accounting/Engineering/Science?

If you're going for sensationalism, I'd suggest a dash of subtlety, so that it at least has a realistic air to it.

This all comes down to a cutthroat attitude in the business world. Some women have it, some women don't. I don't have it. But, men tend to have it more often than women, I gather.

Interestingly, it all works out in the end when the cutthroat type "A" personalities drop from heart attacks relatively early in life. I've read about studies where it's ascertained that it's the healthy individual who drops out of the rat-race via breakdown, etc, because they are unable to tune out intelligences, such as emotional ones, that we're generally trained to tune out. Ultimately, it can be a saving grace.

VictoryGin

CorporateWhore wrote:

You'll find that the women who demand higher wages for women tend to be socialists. Otherwise, they would recognize the fact that they could just start their own business and be CEO. Then there's one more female CEO! Big deal. The bottom line is: they don't give a shit about the quality of work that these women are putting out. It doesn't matter how good an employee they are.

because it's just that easy to start a business? some women do start businesses, but considering women traditionally aren't as financially well-off, or having banks refuse women loans--the amount can only be so high.

CorporateWhore wrote:

Women do make up 50% of college admissions, but does that mean they're majoring in the right fields? Are they majoring in Hair Style and Design or are they majoring in Accounting/Engineering/Science?

the wage gap is not figured across professions, but within professions and jobs in which people have the same education and experience level.

surferdude

callen wrote:

as they've always been in the position of being white males..they haven't a clue and are soo easy to put others down. Its the whole republican "If you work hard you can do anything" and if you don't your just lazy" attitude. Just ignorance. I also have to question the ages of many that have posted on this thread...started reading from beginning and just couldn't believe the immaturity...oh well.

Do you want to be treated as an equal or not?

The only person preventing you or any other female from asking for a raise is you. If I'm treating you as an equal it is very insulting for you to enact legislation because you are unwilling to treat yourself as an equal. You are limiting yourself to an old role model not me. No amount of legislation can help you with this. This last step has to be taken from within.

CorporateWhore

VictoryGin wrote:

the wage gap is not figured across professions, but within professions and jobs in which people have the same education and experience level.

Experience level does not equal "number of years at the firm" either.

farfromglorified

VictoryGin wrote:

because it's just that easy to start a business? some women do start businesses, but considering women traditionally aren't as financially well-off, or having banks refuse women loans--the amount can only be so high.

Why does the word "easy" keep coming into this thread? How is "easy" relevant? It's easy to be a sexist jackass. Should I do that, since "easy" seems to be such an important standard here?

When I started my business, I had a negative net worth and took no loans. I know many people, male and female, who have done the same. It is not easy. It is hard, and risky. But, without trying to sound too self-aggrandizing here, this entire conversation would be meaningless without those of us who have created the jobs so many claim to have a "right" to.

the wage gap is not figured across professions, but within professions and jobs in which people have the same education and experience level.

There's rarely such thing as equal education and experience level. Treating people like averages or stereotypes is the business of sexists and racists. I'd suggest you not adopt plays from their books.

callen

CorporateWhore wrote:

He was making a social point, not a financial point.

Sure! Discrimination can be VERY profitable in some cases.

its economics..and to compare the foot locker folks of discrimination because they have 3/4 of they're space devoted to womens shoes is pretty silly....there was nothing social about his point.

Ahnimus

Feminism is dumb!

callen

jlew24asu wrote:

how the fuck is this a republican thing? how is it wrong? wait, who is ignorant?

white males just assume that women and minorities have the means, back ground, education, culture to do as well as them...we're all creatures of our experiences..and many don't have the luxury of having the same experiences as the white male..hence they don't succeed. Yes there are exceptions. Democrats....affirmative action, raising the minimum wage, heathcare for the poor....Republicans..your on your own, hard work is all it takes. And just read the Republican posts on this forum and this thread.

callen

CorporateWhore wrote:

You'll find that the women who demand higher wages for women tend to be socialists. Otherwise, they would recognize the fact that they could just start their own business and be CEO. Then there's one more female CEO! Big deal. The bottom line is: they don't give a shit about the quality of work that these women are putting out. It doesn't matter how good an employee they are.

Women do make up 50% of college admissions, but does that mean they're majoring in the right fields? Are they majoring in Hair Style and Design or are they majoring in Accounting/Engineering/Science?

In my business classes, the majority of students are male. Finance majors tend to make the most money of any profession when they enter the workforce, and most of those majors are males.

This all comes down to a cutthroat attitude in the business world. Some women have it, some women don't. I don't have it. But, men tend to have it more often than women, I gather.

It all comes down to comfort and who can play golf. If your like me...you play golf....you'll do fine...oh and if you happened to have gone to the same college...bonus. Once you get out in the business world..just dress right, act right..and learn how to play golf.....oh this only applies to white males by the way.

callen

angelica wrote:

The fact is, you may or may not be sexist--and yet many people are. People try to undermine me due to their perception of me all the time. Now granted I see it happens to you, too--it's about life power abuses in general. I can definitely see the specifics when a man takes issue with my being out of "my place" when really I'm just being centered. It may be about sexism, and yet, really, it's still fundamentally power abuse, which is very generic, and which we all struggle with in our own ways.

we can't help it..men and women...its just to what extent. Also we don't make choices anyway...they're all predetermined...hence the struggle for women and minorities to get a fair shake. As much as farfromglorified tries to be fair he can't. As you and I can't.

farfromglorified

callen wrote:

As much as farfromglorified tries to be fair he can't.

Care to back that up?

Many people have lost out telling me what I can't do.