Feminism

CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
edited January 2007 in A Moving Train
Where early feminists like Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton supported simple ideas like voting rights, today's feminists speak on any number issues of the woman's experience. The woman's role in the family is denigrated by modern feminists as a ball and chain - not as a leader of the basic family unit. Modern feminists see marriage as one of the most detrimental institutions to women's rights. Why? I am confused by this.

Is there anyone who can explain to me why feminists are so negative toward marriage and procreation?
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • qtegirlqtegirl Posts: 321
    Is there anyone who can explain to me why feminists are so negative toward marriage and procreation?
    I think you're trying to paint all feminists with a very wide brush. The feminist movement is complex and cannot be defined using just a few labels and catch-phrases.

    I know many feminists that are not against marriage or procreation. What they are against is limiting a woman's potential. As many advances as there have been, women are still lagging behind in many different areas. Women are inderectly penalized for being the cornerstone of families, as you put it. When a woman re-enters the workforce after caring for children, she makes, on average $0.85 for every man's dollar.

    Also, if you look closely, many feminists fight for mandatory maternity as well as paternity leave.
  • VictoryGinVictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    a ha hahahahhahahah.

    your girl susan b. anthony was a well-known advocate of singlehood.

    maybe you should do some research. here's a tip: feminism is about political, social, and economic equality. because there are so many feminists, there are disagreements about how to achieve those things or sometimes what they entail.

    another tip: look up 'coverture'. that's a good start.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • qtegirl wrote:
    I think you're trying to paint all feminists with a very wide brush. The feminist movement is complex and cannot be defined using just a few labels and catch-phrases.

    I know many feminists that are not against marriage or procreation. What they are against is limiting a woman's potential. As many advances as there have been, women are still lagging behind in many different areas. Women are inderectly penalized for being the cornerstone of families, as you put it. When a woman re-enters the workforce after caring for children, she makes, on average $0.85 for every man's dollar.

    Also, if you look closely, many feminists fight for mandatory maternity as well as paternity leave.

    Why do women want to re-enter the workforce? What's the great thrill in that?

    Is a woman's potential limited when she cares for children? Doubtful. That is one of the most difficult jobs there is.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • VictoryGin wrote:
    a ha hahahahhahahah.

    your girl susan b. anthony was a well-known advocate of singlehood.

    maybe you should do some research. here's a tip: feminism is about political, social, and economic equality. because there are so many feminists, there are disagreements about how to achieve those things or sometimes what they entail.

    another tip: look up 'coverture'. that's a good start.

    So essentially, feminism is bullshit. It's just a polyglot of squabbling women who have no idea what they feel but they sure know that a psychiatrist and some midol will fix the problem?

    a ha hahahahhahahah
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • Why do women want to re-enter the workforce? What's the great thrill in that?

    Is a woman's potential limited when she cares for children? Doubtful. That is one of the most difficult jobs there is.


    How about just letting them decide what they want.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • So essentially, feminism is bullshit. It's just a polyglot of squabbling women who have no idea what they feel but they sure know that a psychiatrist and some midol will fix the problem?

    a ha hahahahhahahah


    People don't all fit into these nice little boxes of singled mindedness as you'd like to believe.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Why do women want to re-enter the workforce? What's the great thrill in that?
    Good question. Why do YOU want to enter the workforce?
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • VictoryGinVictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    So essentially, feminism is bullshit. It's just a polyglot of squabbling women who have no idea what they feel but they sure know that a psychiatrist and some midol will fix the problem?

    a ha hahahahhahahah

    well this speaks volumes. it seems ignorance is bliss.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • How about just letting them decide what they want.

    Hell, I'm all for a woman deciding what she wants to do. By all means, don't get married at all. But if she gets married, I think the best decision is for her to take care of the kids until they're ready to go to school. That's best for kids. Kids need moms when they're little, not dads.

    That said, I could be a stay-at-home dad if that's what it took. If women want to work that badly and see out their own potential, fine! I'll sit at home, wrestle with the kids, feed them, watch ESPN, and drink beers. During naps I could ride my mountain bike.

    Feminism just seems very selfish to me. It's all about what women want and not what men want too.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • qtegirlqtegirl Posts: 321
    Is a woman's potential limited when she cares for children? Doubtful. That is one of the most difficult jobs there is.
    You can take my words and twist them around as much as you want.

    I didn't say anything like that in my post, go back and read it.

    A woman's potential is hindered when she sees her male coleagues making more money than her for doing the exact same job.

    It is hindered when she can't or won't put 12 hrs a day of work because she wants to be home with her children.

    It is hindered when her family takes a huge financial hit because her work as a mother and wife is not compensated.
  • VictoryGin wrote:
    well this speaks volumes. it seems ignorance is bliss.

    You just referred me to a word and the internet. You should explain more or I won't bother looking up words.

    I've already looked it up on wikipedia. I'm looking for a more personal take on the issue.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • qtegirl wrote:
    You can take my words and twist them around as much as you want.

    I didn't say anything like that in my post, go back and read it.

    A woman's potential is hindered when she sees her male coleagues making more money than her for doing the exact same job.

    It is hindered when she can't or won't put 12 hrs a day of work because she wants to be home with her children.

    It is hindered when her family takes a huge financial hit because her work as a mother and wife is not compensated.

    Well, sure, I agree if a woman does equal work, she should get equal compensation. We're heading in that direction. Still, is that the only issue for women left? After that, will feminism no longer have a purpose?
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • hippiemom wrote:
    Good question. Why do YOU want to enter the workforce?

    Well, after I have kids, that decision would be up to me and my wife. I'd want to re-enter the workforce if I could make more money than her. If she could make more than me, then she'd re-enter the workforce. It's a purely financial question. Someone needs to take care of the kids, though.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Well, after I have kids, that decision would be up to me and my wife. I'd want to re-enter the workforce if I could make more money than her. If she could make more than me, then she'd re-enter the workforce. It's a purely financial question. Someone needs to take care of the kids, though.
    Excellent! And after other people have kids, that decision will be up to them, and they will base it on the criteria they find most important.

    That was easy, wasn't it?
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • hippiemom wrote:
    Excellent! And after other people have kids, that decision will be up to them, and they will base it on the criteria they find most important.

    That was easy, wasn't it?
    What other criteria would they possibly use?

    Emotional?

    Hahahahaa
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    What other criteria would they possibly use?

    Emotional?

    Hahahahaa
    I know that you don't honestly believe that every family is exactly like yours and should base their decisions on the exact things you do, and reach the same conclusions that you do.

    You DON'T believe that, do you?
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    My only gripe with feminism, but they are very upfront about it, is that they aren't for equal rights. They are for equal rights for women where women currently get the short end of the stick. In general, there seems to be no interest in equal rights where women have the upper hand.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • hippiemom wrote:
    I know that you don't honestly believe that every family is exactly like yours and should base their decisions on the exact things you do, and reach the same conclusions that you do.

    You DON'T believe that, do you?

    Certainly not, but EVERYONE needs a job. Everyone has an income that must provide for the welfare of their family. Why should a woman work if the man makes more? Why should a man work if the woman makes more?
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    surferdude wrote:
    My only gripe with feminism, but they are very upfront about it, is that they aren't for equal rights. They are for equal rights for women where women currently get the short end of the stick. In general, there seems to be no interest in equal rights where women have the upper hand.
    Could you give me an example, please? So you are saying they are for empowerment of one whose rights are not on par with others. And that they are not as much for infringing on people's empowerment?
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelica wrote:
    Could you give me an example, please? So you are saying they are for empowerment of one whose rights are not on par with others. And that they are not as much for infringing on people's empowerment?

    Hooters.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    I'll sit at home, wrestle with the kids, feed them, watch ESPN, and drink beers. During naps I could ride my mountain bike.
    How naive!
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    angelica wrote:
    Could you give me an example, please? So you are saying they are for empowerment of one whose rights are not on par with others. And that they are not as much for infringing on people's empowerment?
    Custody and child support arrangements. The number of shelters for abused women and children versus the number for abused men and children. Possibly the new Ontario ruling that a child may have more than two parents named on a birth certificate.

    Overall I believe there is more work to bring women equality than men, but that desn't change the fact that feminism does not seem interested in addressing equality issues where women have the upper hand. Also feminism and the current social structures basically completely ignore childrens' rights.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    surferdude wrote:
    Custody and child support arrangements. The number of shelters for abused women and children versus the number for abused men and children. Possibly the new Ontario ruling that a child may have more than two parents named on a birth certificate.

    Overall I believe there is more work to bring women equality than men, but that desn't change the fact that feminism does not seem interested in addressing equality issues where women have the upper hand. Also feminism and the current social structures basically completely ignore childrens' rights.
    So your issue is that feminism focusses on it's issue and not on other issues? Isn't your actual issue then that men's groups are not doing enough to empower men?
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Too many feminists demand "rights" which are really just obligations for others.

    But those that believe there is no such thing as a woman's "place" anymore than there is a man's "place"...I'm down with them.
  • Certainly not, but EVERYONE needs a job. Everyone has an income that must provide for the welfare of their family. Why should a woman work if the man makes more? Why should a man work if the woman makes more?

    sometime it's not always about money... who would have a better work schedule? who would have the best commute? who's benefits and vacation plans are better? these are all subjective, like the decision of who goes to work in the first place is. Maybe both parents can work... maybe finacially both parents have to work...

    like most issues, it's not as cut and dry or as black and white as you try to make it.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    angelica wrote:
    So your issue is that feminism focusses on it's issue and not on other issues? Isn't your actual issue then that men's groups are not doing enough to empower men?
    A little of that but I think the idea of equality is lost when you only care about equality when you are the shafted party. Men have helped women on their fight towards equality because of a belief in equality not because they wanted to get anything out of it other than hopefully a better, fairer society. This idea of equality being the goal is basically lost in feminism as it currently happens.

    Men's group are definitely not doing enough to fight the battles where men get shafted. But they are not funded by all levels of government either. It is not a fair or balanced battled field.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    surferdude wrote:
    A little of that but I think the idea of equality is lost when you only care about equality when you are the shafted party.
    Is that like saying that a focus on helping the poor is giving free reign to oppressors? Isn't helping the poor, or unempowered women good in of itself? In my view, decent productive acts cannot be minimized.
    Men have helped women on their fight towards equality because of a belief in equality not because they wanted to get anything out of it other than hopefully a better, fairer society. This idea of equality being the goal is basically lost in feminism as it currently happens.
    In my own growth and healing, I've read numerous books on feminism that were about doing what worked. For example, I read books about healing domestic abuse issues that taught ME to own how I contributed to the cycles (which I continually perpetuated in relationship after relationship, fueling the abuse). It was the practical help that taught me how NOT to play victim that helped me actually break the cycles. And this help exists in feminism in a non-blaming-men way. We can't pretend it does not exist. Many of my own interpersonal skills come from this school of thought.
    Men's group are definitely not doing enough to fight the battles where men get shafted. But they are not funded by all levels of government either. It is not a fair or balanced battled field.
    I'm all for empowering men's issues and for supporting men's groups. As I am for anyone in any situation where they are being treated unfairly. I see it as an entirely separate issue from what is being done for women. I also think discerning where the actual problems are is half of the solution in solving them.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    i have no issue with feminism as long as they don't look down on women who stay home with their kids and not enter the workforce and as long as they're for EQUAL rights.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • qtegirlqtegirl Posts: 321
    surferdude wrote:
    A little of that but I think the idea of equality is lost when you only care about equality when you are the shafted party. Men have helped women on their fight towards equality because of a belief in equality not because they wanted to get anything out of it other than hopefully a better, fairer society. This idea of equality being the goal is basically lost in feminism as it currently happens.
    Man, you're really talking from the point of view of the dominant group.

    This whole thing that men help women out of the goodness of their hearts, not because they're trying to get something out of it? Really? Is that why it took so long for women to get the right to vote? Is that why it took a WHOLE movement to do it? Men didn't do it out of the goodness of their heart, they did it because women wouldn't be silenced anymore!
  • qtegirl wrote:
    I think you're trying to paint all feminists with a very wide brush. The feminist movement is complex and cannot be defined using just a few labels and catch-phrases.

    I know many feminists that are not against marriage or procreation. What they are against is limiting a woman's potential. As many advances as there have been, women are still lagging behind in many different areas. Women are inderectly penalized for being the cornerstone of families, as you put it. When a woman re-enters the workforce after caring for children, she makes, on average $0.85 for every man's dollar.

    Also, if you look closely, many feminists fight for mandatory maternity as well as paternity leave.

    That pretty much sums up what I would say. The main issue for women right now seems to be equality in the workplace...that's still something that needs attention.
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