''You can't be catholic and pro-abortion.''

redrock

cutback wrote:

Abortion is a medical procedure and should not be legislated by our government.

But there are other legal medical procedures/interventions that are reprehensible to other groups of people but not to catholics. Should we just ban all of these procedures that may cause offense to someone? Or just leave it to the person to see what is best for her/him (ie submit to the procedure or not) and how she/he will deal with it from a moral or religious point of view?

norm

redrock wrote:

Should we just ban all of these procedures that may cause offense to someone?

cutback wrote:

should not be legislated by our government.

..

CorporateWhore

redrock wrote:

But it has..... one of the big changes in the teaching of the catholic church is that of religious freedom. The catholic church used to condemn religious freedom, but this is no longer so.. it is now accepted. This is only one example. Though slow and painful, the catholic church's teachings do progress with time. It is inevitable.

The Church misinterpreted the Bible in that instance. Christ spoke with Samaritans even though it was highly inappropriate at the time, which denotes his support of religious freedom. He was not forcing anyone to believe as he did, though he was open to converting those who were open to it.

The Church simply said that human dignity requires that humans have the right to freely choose their faith. Divine Truth still lies solely with the Catholic Church, though, but governments should not impede the free exercise of religion.

qtegirl

CorporateWhore wrote:

The Church misinterpreted the Bible in that instance.

According to Catholic Church dogma, the Pope is infallible. That means that he's never wrong and he can't simply "mininterpret" the Bible.
The point I'm trying to make is that the Catholic teachings themselves change, through the time. Though, at any given time, they're supposedly right. Which leaves the room open of a Pope to come along and "reinterpret" the Bible again, and somehow say that priests are not supposed to be celibate, that women can be priests, and that abortion is perfectly moral.

Once the Pope says it, it's as if God had said it.

know1

cutback wrote:

Abortion is a medical procedure and should not be legislated by our government.

Why not? Lots of other medical procedures are legislated.

CorporateWhore

VictoryGin wrote:

first of all, i take it you are antiwar and anti-capital punishment, right? seeing that the bible teaches the inherent value of human life.

also, abortion was 'legal' over a hundred years ago. it was made illegal in 1880, interestingly around the time the women's movement was getting some attention.

Yes, I am anti-war and anti-capital punishment. The reason I believe those things is that the Bible does teach that every life has inherent dignity. While we're talking about our beliefs, I would assume you do not believe that every life has inherent dignity because you support access to abortion. I assume that you ARE pro-capital punishment and pro-war right? At least I'm consistent.

Abortion has always been heavily frowned upon by society. To say it was "legal" over a 100 years ago is to miss the point: still, no one was performing them because they would've been ostracized by society. It was unnecessary to make it illegal because no one could possibly fathom that a woman would want to kill the child inside her.

Also, the women's movement at that time is very interesting! I would've supported THOSE women very much, VictoryGin!!! You know why???

Susan B. Anthony and the suffragettes fought to give women the right to vote, but at the same time, seriously opposed abortion. Margaret Sanger, the racist, was the one who supported abortion. History remembers her as the one who supported eugenics and as the founder of Planned Parenthood, not as a legitimate supporter of women's rights. Anthony and her "feminists" got women the right to vote - not Sanger. Still, I don't see Anthony as a feminist in the modern sense.

In her publication, "The Revolution," Anthony referred to abortion as "child-murder" and proclaimed, "No matter what the motive, ... the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed."

Furthermore, she condemned as "thrice guilty" the man who, by commission or through omission, "drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime."

http://www.compleatheretic.com/pubs/letters/020624.html

Furthermore, modern feminism is one of the biggest loads of crap I've ever heard. Women do not need to be proud of their genitalia in order to be equal to men. I know plenty of women who don't need to parade around some fake sense of pride in their femininity in order to feel equal to a man.

norm

know1 wrote:

Why not? Lots of other medical procedures are legislated.

In this thread we are talking about abortion. Sort of.:)

CorporateWhore

qtegirl wrote:

According to Catholic Church dogma, the Pope is infallible. That means that he's never wrong and he can't simply "mininterpret" the Bible.
The point I'm trying to make is that the Catholic teachings themselves change, through the time. Though, at any given time, they're supposedly right. Which leaves the room open of a Pope to come along and "reinterpret" the Bible again, and somehow say that priests are not supposed to be celibate, that women can be priests, and that abortion is perfectly moral.

Once the Pope says it, it's as if God had said it.

According to Catholic Church dogma, which you clearly have forgotten in your time away from the church, the Pope is only infallible when he resides on the "chair of Peter." This means that he is not infallible at all times.

My point is that the church WILL NOT reinterpret the Bible regarding abortion. 0% chance. The Bible is firmly opposed to murdering your children.

VictoryGin

CorporateWhore wrote:

Yes, I am anti-war and anti-capital punishment. The reason I believe those things is that the Bible does teach that every life has inherent dignity. While we're talking about our beliefs, I would assume you do not believe that every life has inherent dignity because you support access to abortion. I assume that you ARE pro-capital punishment and pro-war right? At least I'm consistent.

Abortion has always been heavily frowned upon by society. To say it was "legal" over a 100 years ago is to miss the point: still, no one was performing them because they would've been ostracized by society. It was unnecessary to make it illegal because no one could possibly fathom that a woman would want to kill the child inside her.

Also, the women's movement at that time is very interesting! I would've supported THOSE women very much, VictoryGin!!! You know why???

Susan B. Anthony and the suffragettes fought to give women the right to vote, but at the same time, seriously opposed abortion. Margaret Sanger, the racist, was the one who supported abortion. History remembers her as the one who supported eugenics and as the founder of Planned Parenthood, not as a legitimate supporter of women's rights. Anthony and her "feminists" got women the right to vote - not Sanger. Still, I don't see Anthony as a feminist in the modern sense.

In her publication, "The Revolution," Anthony referred to abortion as "child-murder" and proclaimed, "No matter what the motive, ... the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed."

Furthermore, she condemned as "thrice guilty" the man who, by commission or through omission, "drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime."

http://www.compleatheretic.com/pubs/letters/020624.html

Furthermore, modern feminism is one of the biggest loads of crap I've ever heard. Women do not need to be proud of their genitalia in order to be equal to men. I know plenty of women who don't need to parade around some fake sense of pride in their femininity in order to feel equal to a man.

this is going to go nowhere. i'm not catholic, and i don't see things in black and white.

furthermore, it's sad to see that you seem to think all women or suffragists were the same, thought the same, still think the same. there were many women in the past, and clearly you don't know suffrage history or you would be very aware of the different, famous splits in groups. you would also know more about margaret sanger.

ha. plenty of people were performing abortions before and during the time they were illegal. you should check out the 1916 film 'where are my children?' you'd LOVE it!

"susan b. anthony and the suffragettes" sounds like a band.

hippiemom

CorporateWhore wrote:

According to Catholic Church dogma, which you clearly have forgotten in your time away from the church, the Pope is only infallible when he resides on the "chair of Peter." This means that he is not infallible at all times.

And people really believe this stuff?

Really?!!??

VictoryGin

hippiemom wrote:

And people really believe this stuff?

Really?!!??

please don't tell me you don't believe in the infallibility of the chair of peter. i have one in my apartment. everyone knows that when i sit in it that i'm the boss.

jeffbr

VictoryGin wrote:

please don't tell me you don't believe in the infallibility of the chair of peter. i have one in my apartment. everyone knows that when i sit in it that i'm the boss.

I rarely laugh out loud reading posts, but this one got me.

even flow?

Baptized, communionized, and confirmized and I say pull the plug if that is what you want to do.

CorporateWhore

hippiemom wrote:

And people really believe this stuff?

Really?!!??

You call THAT silly. Haha

What about believing that a baby can gets its brains sucked out 5 seconds before its born and that's a moral decision?? Haha, oh man. People really believe that???

hippiemom

VictoryGin wrote:

please don't tell me you don't believe in the infallibility of the chair of peter. i have one in my apartment. everyone knows that when i sit in it that i'm the boss.

I have a chair like that too, but I admit the "chair of Peter" name is new to me. Around here, it's just called "mom's chair."

Milhouse VanHouten

VictoryGin wrote:

please don't tell me you don't believe in the infallibility of the chair of peter. i have one in my apartment. everyone knows that when i sit in it that i'm the boss.

You have your own Chair of Peter?? Nice. I wish I had a chair that gave me omniscient qualities. I only have a Futon of St. Michael, and it doesn't give me infallibility as much as it gives me lower back pain.

norm

hippiemom wrote:

I have a chair like that too, but I admit the "chair of Peter" name is new to me. Around here, it's just called "mom's chair."

Mine is in the bathroom.:D:D:D

VictoryGin

Milhouse VanHouten wrote:

You have your own Chair of Peter?? Nice. I wish I had a chair that gave me omniscient qualities. I only have a Futon of St. Michael, and it doesn't give me infallibility as much as it gives me lower back pain.

a friend of mine has a couch of paul. maybe you could look into that? i hear it doesn't cause back pain. don't even get me started on the bed of mary.

that was hilarious.

even flow?

VictoryGin wrote:

a friend of mine has a couch of paul. maybe you could look into that? i hear it doesn't cause back pain. don't even get me started on the bed of mary.

that was hilarious.

Bed of Mary. While at least you'll know that you will get a good sleep on it. And that is about the only thing.

VictoryGin

even flow? wrote:

Bed of Mary. While at least you'll know that you will get a good sleep on it. And that is about the only thing.

totally! hey, you can check out the Chair of Paul in a few months.