''You can't be catholic and pro-abortion.''
macgyver06
Posts: 2,500
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/04/female.speaker.ap/index.html
why is it that the pro-life side still can't grasp that you can be pro choice and not like abortion
why is it that the pro-life side still can't grasp that you can be pro choice and not like abortion
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Personally, I think it's just a ploy to have lots of little catholic children running around.
That's one among many reasons that I'm not catholic anymore. Thankfully, there are progressive forces within the catholic church that would like to have these rules changed. However, I don't see it happening as long as the church remains an archaic, patriarcal hierarchy.
We're all pro-choice. I just don't happen to believe that abortion should be one of the choices.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Well the Catholic religion is one that puritanically abhors the notion of anybody actually enjoying sex (hence their ultimate reverence for the 'virgin' Mary), so its more like a ploy to try and prevent people from doing it in the first place I think.
And whether you can be a Catholic and pro abortion is a pretty mute point nowadays anyway - Biblical scripture and Catholic dogma has been demonstrated to be so mind numbingly contradictory and out of touch with contemporary morality that every individual who professes loyalty to any religion essentially makes their own choice over which particular teachings to follow and which to ignore anyway - why should the issue of abortion be any different.
Even allowing for the possibility of an abortion (for any reason other than to save the life of the mother) is morally reprehensible to the Church. The simple fact is, the Bible teaches that all human life has inherent value, no matter what stage of development. The teaching of the Catholic Church will not change because some "progressive forces" deem that there should be change. Morality does not change with time - it is always the same.
That's what I find funny about this issue. 100 years ago, it would have been majorly frowned upon (and illegal) for a woman to abort her child. The Catholic Church had no problem with its position among society 100 years ago. Today, we now need "progressive forces" in the Church to change its mind because abortion IS supported in society today.
Does that change in society necessarily reflect a correction of moral attitudes? Or is abortion to be just as frowned upon today as it was in 1906?
I find abortion to be repulsive, barbaric, and violent. It is just as disgusting in 2006 as it was in 1906. To treat a human life like that, one must either be insane or ignorant of the actual procedure.
-Enoch Powell
Well.. you can have sex, but only with your married partner (opposite sex, obviously) and only if it is for the purpose of procreating (thus you may not use contraception)..... Yep, there are lots of little catholics, children of large families in the poorest parts of the world!
R.i.p. My Dad - May 28, 2007
R.i.p. Black Tail (cat) - Sept. 20, 2008
But it has..... one of the big changes in the teaching of the catholic church is that of religious freedom. The catholic church used to condemn religious freedom, but this is no longer so.. it is now accepted. This is only one example. Though slow and painful, the catholic church's teachings do progress with time. It is inevitable.
From Wikipedia:
According to canon law, one becomes a member of the Catholic Church by being baptized in the Church or by being received into the Church (by making a profession of faith, if already baptized).[24]
"To break on one's own initiative the juridical bond with the Church, a formal act is required in writing before one's local Ordinary or parish priest, who is to judge the genuineness of the act of apostasy, heresy or schism; without this formal act of defection, "heresy (whether formal or material), schism and apostasy do not in themselves constitute a formal act of defection, if they are not externally concretized and manifested to the ecclesistical authority in the required manner."[25] Those who do not take this step are presumed to be still linked with the Catholic Church and thus bound by ecclesiastical laws. Someone who renounces membership may later be received again into the Catholic Church, after making a profession of faith, or in occult cases (lack of formal act) going to confession."
Which sucks for me... they still have my number!
first of all, i take it you are antiwar and anti-capital punishment, right? seeing that the bible teaches the inherent value of human life.
also, abortion was 'legal' over a hundred years ago. it was made illegal in 1880, interestingly around the time the women's movement was getting some attention.
cross the river to the eastside
No. This does: http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=227790
Then you are not Pro-Choice.
I am Pro-Choice but, i hope the woman chooses not to have an abortion and seeks an alternative path to take. I am not one to limit the legal options open to her, therefore, making the choice for her.
I believe that education is the key... but, that costs money and money is more important than abortion.
Hail, Hail!!!
I should have put the "wink" face on their. I did not care whether the link was on or not. I just thought I was being funny. My sense of humor is so-so at best.
Same here. I would definetly encourage the woman to pursue a different course, but in the end it is her body and her decision to make not mine. Then again it doesn't really matter because I'm not a Christian so there for no conflict of interest.
aahhh.. but I did put my little rolly eyes and my big smile... I understood your jest!
Abortion is a medical procedure and should not be legislated by our government.
But there are other legal medical procedures/interventions that are reprehensible to other groups of people but not to catholics. Should we just ban all of these procedures that may cause offense to someone? Or just leave it to the person to see what is best for her/him (ie submit to the procedure or not) and how she/he will deal with it from a moral or religious point of view?
The Church misinterpreted the Bible in that instance. Christ spoke with Samaritans even though it was highly inappropriate at the time, which denotes his support of religious freedom. He was not forcing anyone to believe as he did, though he was open to converting those who were open to it.
The Church simply said that human dignity requires that humans have the right to freely choose their faith. Divine Truth still lies solely with the Catholic Church, though, but governments should not impede the free exercise of religion.
-Enoch Powell
The point I'm trying to make is that the Catholic teachings themselves change, through the time. Though, at any given time, they're supposedly right. Which leaves the room open of a Pope to come along and "reinterpret" the Bible again, and somehow say that priests are not supposed to be celibate, that women can be priests, and that abortion is perfectly moral.
Once the Pope says it, it's as if God had said it.
Why not? Lots of other medical procedures are legislated.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Yes, I am anti-war and anti-capital punishment. The reason I believe those things is that the Bible does teach that every life has inherent dignity. While we're talking about our beliefs, I would assume you do not believe that every life has inherent dignity because you support access to abortion. I assume that you ARE pro-capital punishment and pro-war right? At least I'm consistent.
Abortion has always been heavily frowned upon by society. To say it was "legal" over a 100 years ago is to miss the point: still, no one was performing them because they would've been ostracized by society. It was unnecessary to make it illegal because no one could possibly fathom that a woman would want to kill the child inside her.
Also, the women's movement at that time is very interesting! I would've supported THOSE women very much, VictoryGin!!! You know why???
Susan B. Anthony and the suffragettes fought to give women the right to vote, but at the same time, seriously opposed abortion. Margaret Sanger, the racist, was the one who supported abortion. History remembers her as the one who supported eugenics and as the founder of Planned Parenthood, not as a legitimate supporter of women's rights. Anthony and her "feminists" got women the right to vote - not Sanger. Still, I don't see Anthony as a feminist in the modern sense.
In her publication, "The Revolution," Anthony referred to abortion as "child-murder" and proclaimed, "No matter what the motive, ... the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed."
Furthermore, she condemned as "thrice guilty" the man who, by commission or through omission, "drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime."
http://www.compleatheretic.com/pubs/letters/020624.html
Furthermore, modern feminism is one of the biggest loads of crap I've ever heard. Women do not need to be proud of their genitalia in order to be equal to men. I know plenty of women who don't need to parade around some fake sense of pride in their femininity in order to feel equal to a man.
-Enoch Powell
In this thread we are talking about abortion. Sort of.:)
According to Catholic Church dogma, which you clearly have forgotten in your time away from the church, the Pope is only infallible when he resides on the "chair of Peter." This means that he is not infallible at all times.
My point is that the church WILL NOT reinterpret the Bible regarding abortion. 0% chance. The Bible is firmly opposed to murdering your children.
-Enoch Powell
this is going to go nowhere. i'm not catholic, and i don't see things in black and white.
furthermore, it's sad to see that you seem to think all women or suffragists were the same, thought the same, still think the same. there were many women in the past, and clearly you don't know suffrage history or you would be very aware of the different, famous splits in groups. you would also know more about margaret sanger.
ha. plenty of people were performing abortions before and during the time they were illegal. you should check out the 1916 film 'where are my children?' you'd LOVE it!
"susan b. anthony and the suffragettes" sounds like a band.
cross the river to the eastside
Really?!!??