World War II was unnecessary

fuck

Courtesy of a friend:

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/3041

http://www.counterpunch.org/whitbeck01272007.html

http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story674.html
'...The Israeli government of the time pursued a policy of non- compromise, in order to prevent the return of the refugees "at any price" (as Ben Gurion himself put it), despite the fact that the UN General Assembly had been calling for this since 11 December 1948. Their villages were either destroyed or occupied by Jewish immigrants, and their lands were shared out between the surrounding kibbutzim. The law on "abandoned properties" - which was designed to make possible the seizure of any land belonging to persons who were "absent" - "legalized" this project of general confiscation as of December 1948. Almost 400 Arab villages were thus either wiped off the map or Judaised, as were most of the Arab quarters in mixed towns. According to a report drawn up in 1952, Israel had thus succeeded in expropriating 73,000 rooms in abandoned houses, 7,800 shops, workshops and warehouses, 5 million Palestinian pounds in bank accounts, and - most important of all - 300,000 hectares of land.

In "1948 and After" (chapter 4), Benny Morris deals at greater length with the role played by Yosef Weitz, who was at the time director of the Jewish National Fund's Lands Department. This man of noted Zionist convictions confided to his diary on 20 December 1940: "It must be clear that there is no room in the country for both people (...) the only solution is a Land of Israel, at least a western Land of Israel without Arabs. There is no room here for compromise. (...) There is no way but to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries(...) Not one village must be left, not one (bedouin) tribe."

fuck

http://www.robincmiller.com/pales2.htm
'...Throughout 1948, the massacres continued: 60 at Sa'sa' on Feb. 15; 100 murdered in Acre after its May 18 seizure by the Haganah; several hundred at Lydda on July 12, including 80 machine-gunned inside the Dahmash Mosque; 100 at Dawayma on Oct. 29, with an Israeli eye-witness reporting that "the children were killed by smashing their skulls with clubs"; 13 young men mowed down by machine guns in open fields outside Eilabun on Oct. 30; another 70 young men blindfolded and shot to death, one after another, at Safsaf the same day; 12 killed at Majd al-Kurum, also on Oct. 30, with a Belgian U.N. observer writing that "there is no doubt about these murders"; an unknown number killed the next day at al-Bi'na and Deir al-Assad, described by a U.N. official as "wanton slaying without provocation"; 14 "liquidated," according to the Israeli military's report, at Khirbet al-Wa'ra as-Sauda on Nov. 2.

A particularly repugnant method of killing employed by the Jewish militias was the blowing up of houses with their occupants still inside, often at night. The militia would place explosive charges around the stone houses, drench the wooden window and door frames with gasoline, and then open fire, simultaneously dynamiting and burning the sleeping inhabitants to death.

The supreme act of terrorism by Jewish militias was the slaughter of nearly the entire village of Deir Yassin on April 9, 1948. According to Jacques de Reynier, a Swiss physician working for the Red Cross who arrived before the bloodletting had ended, 254 people were "deliberately massacred in cold blood." "All I could think of," he later said, "was the SS troops I had seen in Athens." According to Meir Pa'il, who served as a communications officer for the Haganah in Deir Yassin and was present during the assault, 25 male survivors were taken to Jerusalem and paraded through the streets in a perverse victory celebration, then shot in cold blood.'

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Scottish couple barred from delivering Gaza medical supplies

http://worldpressnetwork.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=363

"'Israel is trying to wipe out the younger population. If young
people die, there is no future for Palestinians in the area.' The
Gaza-based Popular Committee Against the Siege (PCAS) last reported
the number of victims who had died preventable deaths as a result of
unattainable medical care under the siege as 212, the last two
victims being an 11-month-old infant and a 44-year-old father of
eight. Both died on Sunday, after being denied permits to exit Gaza
for treatment. "


reap and sow.... reap and sow...

RolandTD20Kdrummer

FiveB247x wrote:

Please post a specific number of deaths that resulted specifically from this alleged Israeli genocide. Only include casualties from direct and specific action directed at the extermination of the said group, not secondhand actions (which is really what you're refering too).

How bout I imprison and starve you and your family and you get back to me on the "stats"

JordyWordy

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

How bout I imprison and starve you and your family and you get back to me on the "stats"

The contentious issue here is the word Genocide.

So you're saying it is a Genocide?

Does nobody here realise how easily Israel could kill off Palestine if they truly were carrying out a Genocide? You really underestimate how strong Israel are if you dont get that yet.

By your logic the Irish famine was a Genocide by the British? Pfft, come on, dont throw the word around just to add weight to an already genuine cause

Kann

_outlaw wrote:

Why not? You still haven't even given a reason other than how tragic the Holocaust was. That doesn't make this any less tragic. I don't even understand your point of me not having an argument. I compared two things together, and you still haven't even shown any differences. Both have cases of genocide, massacres, etc. Israel has displaced millions and killed hundreds of thousands Palestinians, probably, in the last 80 years or so.

You don't have an argument on your deduction that I am pro-israelian. Lets do some logic : you're pro-palestinian on the vast israel-palestine issue. Some people in this thread disagree with your opinions, therefore these people are pro-israelian. This is just wrong.
My problem is with your (imo) ludicrous comparison. Sabra is a massacre. A genocide is a systematic killing of an ethnic group identified by religion, culture or sexual preference in the explicit goal of completely destroying this group. Geno=ethnic group, cide=death. This is not the goal of Israel, but was the goal of Nazis. Now on the question "is Israel's policy towards Palestine a tragedy", I'll probably agree with you.

Israel has caused the problem. It's as simple as that. You can't try to throw in other Arab countries just to try to downplay what the Israelis are doing and saying "they do not make 100% of the problem." The problem is BECAUSE of Israel's occupation, how they steal land, destroy villages/houses, kill people, etc. The Arab countries have not been friendly to the Palestinians, and I know that personally, but that doesn't downplay anything Israel does, and is pretty irrelevant to the entire conflict.

Israel is not acting correctly or even trying to solve the problem but they are not alone. First of all they did not cause the problem, western countries, out of guilt and a lack of foresight, caused the problem. The solution is partly in the hands of Israel but not only. Arab countries around also need to stop manipulating the Palestinian cause for their ends. Like I said its a regional problem and will only be solved (if solved one day) by all the regional actors. And if the US/EU stop meddling as well.

Kann

edit: double post sorry

FiveB247x

Is this the generic life of the everyday, average Palestinian? Seriously, why must you state such over the top things. It completely takes away from any legitimate point you could potentially make.

As for you comments about genocide, please post a specific number of casualties in which Israel fully and knowingly tried to kill Palestinians with the intent of extermination. You can't such things because they're simply untrue. You take the facts and make a leap into some greater notion, where it doesn't belong.

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

How bout I imprison and starve you and your family and you get back to me on the "stats"

fuck

JordyWordy wrote:

The contentious issue here is the word Genocide.

So you're saying it is a Genocide?

Does nobody here realise how easily Israel could kill off Palestine if they truly were carrying out a Genocide? You really underestimate how strong Israel are if you dont get that yet.

Just because they don't walk into Gaza one day and decide to kill ALL PALESTINIANS within the second, does not mean that they have not been committing genocide for years. Genocide doesn't necessarily mean you wipe out the entire people in a few years, it could still mean over the course of years.

And the key point here is NOT genocide. The key point here is:
1) a comparison to how the Jews were treated in WWII. Not only genocide, but living in ghettos, imprisonment, starvation, torture, etc.
2) finding out actual solutions

none of which you have done. you've not offered a single solution. you ignore the fact that Israel has been doing MANY other things IN ADDITION to genocide. i'm not saying it's because you support Israel, but you still have been ignoring all other facts and focusing on one thing that fits whatever it is you're trying to prove.

Here's some reading I suggest you do: http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851684670

fuck

Kann wrote:

You don't have an argument on your deduction that I am pro-israelian. Lets do some logic : you're pro-palestinian on the vast israel-palestine issue. Some people in this thread disagree with your opinions, therefore these people are pro-israelian. This is just wrong.

what the hell are you talking about, where did I call anyone "pro-israelian" in this thread? are people here finding ways to excuse israel's crimes? yes. but nowhere have I called anyone "pro-israelian."

My problem is with your (imo) ludicrous comparison. Sabra is a massacre. A genocide is a systematic killing of an ethnic group identified by religion, culture or sexual preference in the explicit goal of completely destroying this group. Geno=ethnic group, cide=death.

yes, and Israel has been committing this for decades. I already proved Sabra and Shatila was a case of genocide, no need to open that again. There is a systematic killing of an ethnic group, and that is the Palestinians. I suggest you read that book I posted above.

This is not the goal of Israel, but was the goal of Nazis. Now on the question "is Israel's policy towards Palestine a tragedy", I'll probably agree with you.

why the fuck does everyone here focus on the word genocide and ignore everything else?? Other than the fact that a genocide is occurring, you are sitting here ignoring all of Israel's other crimes. Just because Israel doesn't go on national television to say "Hi, I just want everyone here to know that we want to kill all Palestinians. Have a nice day." does not mean it's not happening.

Israel is not acting correctly or even trying to solve the problem but they are not alone. First of all they did not cause the problem, western countries, out of guilt and a lack of foresight, caused the problem. The solution is partly in the hands of Israel but not only. Arab countries around also need to stop manipulating the Palestinian cause for their ends. Like I said its a regional problem and will only be solved (if solved one day) by all the regional actors. And if the US/EU stop meddling as well.

The Israelis did, in fact, cause the problem. The Zionist movement of the early 1900s pushed the European governments to accept this. Obviously it's their faults too, and they are partially responsible for what is happening in Palestine, but quit trying to take the blame off of Israel who is the country that is committing all these crimes. The Arab countries are not to blame for Israel's occupation, their murders, their inhumane treatment of Palestinians, or anything else. When the Israelis decide they want peace, REAL PEACE, then they will have it.

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

Is this the generic life of the everyday, average Palestinian? Seriously, why must you state such over the top things. It completely takes away from any legitimate point you could potentially make.

YES!!!! IT IS the life of an everyday Palestinian!!!! You really just don't know how life is over there.

As for you comments about genocide, please post a specific number of casualties in which Israel fully and knowingly tried to kill Palestinians with the intent of extermination. You can't such things because they're simply untrue. You take the facts and make a leap into some greater notion, where it doesn't belong.

Just because the numbers aren't high enough for you people to finally wake the fuck up, does not mean it's not happening. Maybe you'd rather wait until the Israelis have killed 1million Palestinians, or 2 million, or 5.

You don't "accidentally" kill hundreds of thousands of people, destroy their villages, barely allow them the necessary of items like power and electricity, medicine, food, for decades.

How about you do some reading too? Click that link above.

FiveB247x

Don't be condescending and tell me to read... as if to say, if people have a different opinion from your own, its because "they don't know enough" or "read enough". To my knowledge, you're a generic poster on a message board, not the know all, say all in the Israel/Palestine conflict... ie a human with an opinion.. just like anyone else.

You keep alluding to the fact that the Palestinian population is dwindling, yet statistics say otherwise. Wouldn't the population decrease if all the people are truly starving? Populations need food, they don't grow if they don't have food... ie if the population is increasing, they have food. This is a truism of any population throughout the history of the world.

_outlaw wrote:

YES!!!! IT IS the life of an everyday Palestinian!!!! You really just don't know how life is over there.


Just because the numbers aren't high enough for you people to finally wake the fuck up, does not mean it's not happening. Maybe you'd rather wait until the Israelis have killed 1million Palestinians, or 2 million, or 5.

You don't "accidentally" kill hundreds of thousands of people, destroy their villages, barely allow them the necessary of items like power and electricity, medicine, food, for decades.

How about you do some reading too? Click that link above.

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

Don't be condescending and tell me to read... as if to say, if people have a different opinion from your own, its because "they don't know enough" or "read enough". To my knowledge, you're a generic poster on a message board, not the know all, say all in the Israel/Palestine conflict... ie a human with an opinion.. just like anyone else.

what?? where did I ever say you don't read enough. you people really just put words in my mouth. I said "do some reading."

You keep alluding to the fact that the Palestinian population is dwindling, yet statistics say otherwise. Wouldn't the population decrease if all the people are truly starving? Populations need food, they don't grow if they don't have food... ie if the population is increasing, they have food. This is a truism of any population throughout the history of the world.

I never said the population is dwindling. Again, you put words in my mouth. Thousands of people die, and the conditions they are living in are very comparable to the Jews in WWII. Does that mean that Palestinians are going to stop having kids or something?

It is a fact that the poor have more children than the rich. THIS is a truism of any population throughout the history of the world.

All of your posts have proven that you just ignore my main points and head to ridiculous things like wanting "statistics" for death counts, rather than seeing the fact that 418 villages were destroyed, 1 million Palestinians were kicked out or ran away due to fear, many are living in SEVERELY harsh conditions, apartheid is taking place over there, and the Israelis are all doing this because people like you excuse them for it.

FiveB247x

Poor people may have more children, but where are these children from and made from? Obviously people need food to survive and multiply in population. So if the average Palestinian is starving as you claim and has no food, what exactly are their population eating or made from? Human beings are made from the food they eat. If you don't have food, you don't survive. The Palestinian population has increased, therefore they're not starving.

Also, I don't excuse anyting anyone does. Both sides are very, very guilty of continuing this conflict, to say one side is the mere guilty party and the other is innocent of any wrong doing at all, is mere bias and not factual.

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

Poor people may have more children, but where are these children from and made from? Obviously people need food to survive and multiply in population. So if the average Palestinian is starving as you claim and has no food, what exactly are their population eating or made from? Human beings are made from the food they eat. If you don't have food, you don't survive. The Palestinian population has increased, therefore they're not starving.

do you not read news? do you not see people starving? the Palestinians in Gaza survive on less food a day, then you eat in a single meal. yes, now I'm asking you if you ACTUALLY read because clearly you do not understand the situation there if you think the Palestinians have food. :rolleyes:

Also, I don't excuse anyting anyone does. Both sides are very, very guilty of continuing this conflict, to say one side is the mere guilty party and the other is innocent of any wrong doing at all, is mere bias and not factual.

The only thing that is not factual in that sentence is claiming that I said "the other side is innocent of ANY WRONG DOING AT ALL" which is a complete lie. However, Israel is the one continuing the violence, which they could stop if they wanted to. They are the ones continuing the occupation, continuing the inhumane treatment of Palestinians. To even say the Palestinians are "very, very guilty of continuing this conflict" is not only a MAJOR overstatement, but it's completely ridiculous and not factual, when you look at facts, think about possible solutions, and look at the history of the conflict. All of which you refuse to do.

fuck

You are excusing the Israelis' actions. Not only are they FAR MORE severe and not only do they commit atrocious acts, but you simply ignore it by saying "it's not only their faults." As if the Palestinians need to grow balls and handle this suffering like true men... :rolleyes:

FiveB247x

This conflict is 50+ yrs ongoing now... there have been many times that Palestine was pro-actively causing violence vs innocent civilians. There were many times when Israel wasn't causing pro-actively causing all the destruction we see now and Palestine wouldn't recognize Israel as a state. My point as you can see, is that both sides had their role of both innocent and guilty party in this 50 yr conflict. You claim because what you see in one portion in time, that it summarizes the entire conflict. That simply isn't factual or true. It is your opinion and that doesn't make you correct. Lastly, I do not condone the killing or suffering of any people, no matter who perpetrates such things or for what reasons some believe it to be justified. The man who gets punches, and punches in response is just as guilty of wrongdoing. Non-violence will lead to progress and solutions, not justifying retaliations and certainly not condoning such responses.

Ps, there are people throughout the world (and many in the US - the richest nation in the world), who live or have means below the poverty line, who is guilty of their malltreatment? You claim because you have a party to point at as guilty it's ok to mention, I find it more of a sidenote to reality. Roughly 30 yrs ago when Pan-arabism was spreading in the Middle East and the likes of Egypt, Lebonon, Jordan and others became adamently anti-Israel and wouldn't even recognize them as a state, none-the-less, make peace, you brush over such facts because the shoe is on the other foot now and now many find it as a gross injustice. Just as you claim there's nothing for Palestinians to do to create peace now and it's all in the Israeli's hands now, the situation was reversed... but let's ignore all these historical facts and just pick a side and continue arguing so nothing positive or substanial will change. It's much easier.

_outlaw wrote:

You are excusing the Israelis' actions. Not only are they FAR MORE severe and not only do they commit atrocious acts, but you simply ignore it by saying "it's not only their faults." As if the Palestinians need to grow balls and handle this suffering like true men... :rolleyes:

Kann

_outlaw wrote:

what the hell are you talking about, where did I call anyone "pro-israelian" in this thread? are people here finding ways to excuse israel's crimes? yes. but nowhere have I called anyone "pro-israelian."

Same same, me disagreeing with you does not mean I excuse anything.

yes, and Israel has been committing this for decades. I already proved Sabra and Shatila was a case of genocide, no need to open that again. There is a systematic killing of an ethnic group, and that is the Palestinians. I suggest you read that book I posted above.
why the fuck does everyone here focus on the word genocide and ignore everything else?? Other than the fact that a genocide is occurring, you are sitting here ignoring all of Israel's other crimes. Just because Israel doesn't go on national television to say "Hi, I just want everyone here to know that we want to kill all Palestinians. Have a nice day." does not mean it's not happening.

Ok, forget it. I think that comparing the Israel-Palestine conflict to ww2 and jews to nazis is particularly stupid, obnoxious and insulting. But hey, that's just my own and personal opinion.

fuck

Kann wrote:

Same same, me disagreeing with you does not mean I excuse anything.

I said 'people' not you. You guys really are bad at getting whatever you want from what people say.

Ok, forget it. I think that comparing the Israel-Palestine conflict to ww2 and jews to nazis is particularly stupid, obnoxious and insulting. But hey, that's just my own and personal opinion.

"what you said was stupid, obnoxious and insulting... but I won't say why."

:rolleyes:

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

This conflict is 50+ yrs ongoing now... there have been many times that Palestine was pro-actively causing violence vs innocent civilians. There were many times when Israel wasn't causing pro-actively causing all the destruction we see now and Palestine wouldn't recognize Israel as a state.

why should Palestine recognize Israel as a state?
And you know what, where should they recognize this occupier's state? Israel has no official borders. the fact that you think Palestine should recognize a country that is occupying them and killing them is ridiculous. Yes there were times were Palestine retaliated, and I never said they were never violent. The fact of the matter is the Israel is the aggressor and the occupier in this conflict, and they must be the ones to stop it.

My point as you can see, is that both sides had their role of both innocent and guilty party in this 50 yr conflict.

Israel has been around for 60 years. The Zionists have been working for 120 years+. But I digress. The point is that you can't show Palestine is the aggressor or the occupier in this conflict because they aren't. Robbing a liquor store doesn't make you Charlie Manson.

You claim because what you see in one portion in time, that it summarizes the entire conflict.

In this case, YOU are the one seeing one portion in time. I have been talking about the 60+ years Israel has been committing atrocious acts. You keep mentioning Palestinian violence, which has only actually begun to take place on a bigger scale in the early 90s.

That simply isn't factual or true. It is your opinion and that doesn't make you correct.

No. I'm reporting facts. You, on the other hand, have just been saying that 'the way you word things is wrong' or something, even though it isn't. you still haven't reported any facts other than "both people are guilty!!!!"

Lastly, I do not condone the killing or suffering of any people, no matter who perpetrates such things or for what reasons some believe it to be justified. The man who gets punches, and punches in response is just as guilty of wrongdoing.

what about the man who gets raped, tortured, watches his family get killed, his house taken away... then he decides to punch the guy back. is he just as guilty?

Non-violence will lead to progress and solutions, not justifying retaliations and certainly not condoning such responses.

have you not read anyone's posts? Byrnzie posted an article asking 'when has non-violence worked in an occupation or a humanitarian crisis?' Meanwhile, I've stated several times that the Palestinians have tried, and still do, non-violent tactics. They lead to nothing but more deaths. You just don't seem to want to understand that because it doesn't fit your theory of 'if everyone threw their guns away, we could all be friends.'

Ps, there are people throughout the world (and many in the US - the richest nation in the world), who live or have means below the poverty line, who is guilty of their malltreatment?

do you even know what is going on in Gaza? almost 50% of the people there are unemployed. it's a humanitarian crisis like no other. Denying something like this is ridiculous. it's not comparable to anything. they barely have the necessary tools to survive. do you even know how many people live in gaza alone?

You claim because you have a party to point at as guilty it's ok to mention, I find it more of a sidenote to reality.

well then, I suggest you do some reading on this. atleast the news. something. because clearly you are either misinformed from a wrong news source, or you just haven't read about the crisis going on in gaza.

Roughly 30 yrs ago when Pan-arabism was spreading in the Middle East and the likes of Egypt, Lebonon, Jordan and others became adamently anti-Israel and wouldn't even recognize them as a state, none-the-less, make peace, you brush over such facts because the shoe is on the other foot now and now many find it as a gross injustice.

'roughly 30 years ago' Israel started a war and stole land from these countries. 'roughly 30 years ago' Israel entered Lebanon and occupied many parts of it for 18 years.

Just as you claim there's nothing for Palestinians to do to create peace now and it's all in the Israeli's hands now, the situation was reversed... but let's ignore all these historical facts and just pick a side and continue arguing so nothing positive or substanial will change. It's much easier.

ignore historical facts? that's what you've been doing for 3 threads so far. every single post you ignore any fact given and try to excuse the fact that israel is responsible for it by saying things like "poverty is all over the place. you blame it on someone who is OCCUPYING another person?? impossible!" :rolleyes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7523113.stm
even the UK thinks they should talk to Hamas now.

you seem to just want to ignore the fact that there is an occupation going on. you never even mention it in your posts. for some reason, you don't seem to think that Israel must pull out for peace to happen.

In other news, West Bank settlements almost approved:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7523348.stm