Exactly, so what does that tell you? Just because something should be done, doesn't mean anything. We can all wish for an utopian world where everything is just and right, but we can recognize we live in a world where things simply don't work that way because we as a species don't let it. Wish exactly why I say it doesn't matter who initiates such things, as long as the process begins - that is what is important.
And every country in the world except for the U.S. and Israel.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
by the way, this is the post that makes me think youre not getting me at all.
I havnt ignored what israel have done in addition to the "genocide". I didnt refer to outright, but there are reasons im pro-palestine, like i said in one of my very first posts.
sorry if I misunderstood you, but focusing on one aspect of the entire discussion and shifting it to one thing was what I meant in my response.
Im not trying to prove shit. Im throwing out possibilities for discussion on an internet board.
you were trying to show that Israel is not committing genocide. am I right or wrong?
Exactly, so what does that tell you? Just because something should be done, doesn't mean anything. We can all wish for an utopian world where everything is just and right, but we can recognize we live in a world where things simply don't work that way because we as a species don't let it. Wish exactly why I say it doesn't matter who initiates such things, as long as the process begins - that is what is important.
bingo.
Waiting for the "blamed" party does have some logic to it, but this is the real world. How often does the wrong party come forward and apologise?
As long as a situation comes about that leads to people not living horrible day-to-day lives like outlaw has said, then thats whats important. and that the peace can be sustained.
you've mentioned peace, you haven't mentioned how to get peace, but if you're not interested in giving an alternate solution, it's fine. (not being sarcastic here).
So your post which quoted me was directed at Five? ....fair enough, if you say so
what? you quoted me which was a response to Five...
i know no one did. then again, i never said Israel didnt commit attrocities against palestinian people....so i thought spelling things out clearly might help avoid confusion from now on
I never claimed you said that. I said you were ignoring it. which you were.
Exactly, so what does that tell you? Just because something should be done, doesn't mean anything. We can all wish for an utopian world where everything is just and right, but we can recognize we live in a world where things simply don't work that way because we as a species don't let it. Wish exactly why I say it doesn't matter who initiates such things, as long as the process begins - that is what is important.
so you justify Israel staying in the occupied territory by saying 'not everything in this world is just'?? Is that what you're trying to say here because I really am confused. I just don't understand why you don't think Israel has to withdraw for peace to happen.
my point isn't that the Palestinians SHOULD NOT initiate peace. It's that they CANNOT.
sorry if I misunderstood you, but focusing on one aspect of the entire discussion and shifting it to one thing was what I meant in my response.
you were trying to show that Israel is not committing genocide. am I right or wrong?
what's that?
its all good, i wasnt involved in the other thread so i didnt know from reading this what the focus of the old one was. I merely objected to the Genocide issue. These threads often have mini-topics, i didnt intend to confuse.
yeh, i meant besides to disagreeing with the Genocide im not trying to prove anything. And even still, i wasnt trying to prove it, i just wasnt sure u understood the grounds i had for objecting. So i supplied more ammo. Same as anyone trying to convey a point on here ...u disagree, and ur not alone in that either. fair enough
Its a heated topic, this kinda stuff brings out chalk & cheese types of opinions
Waiting for the "blamed" party does have some logic to it, but this is the real world. How often does the wrong party come forward and apologise?
As long as a situation comes about that leads to people not living horrible day-to-day lives like outlaw has said, then thats whats important. and that the peace can be sustained.
I understand all this. It's not even about "blaming." it's simply the fact that peace cannot be initiated from the palestinians while Israel is occupying their land. in order for peace to occur, israel must withdraw. that is my entire point.
you've mentioned peace, you haven't mentioned how to get peace, but if you're not interested in giving an alternate solution, it's fine. (not being sarcastic here).
good basic outline of the background, and the number of contentious issues that had arisen in the previous deals struck over the preceeding 40 years that were all broken by parties on both sides.
Both governments, neutral ones, Leaders & Opposition, paramilitary groups, Mediators and religious figures all involved in bashing out a solution. Not easy, very protracted. But gets a result.
Founded on the idea that borders issues are better solved after achieving peace, cos the people arent living in a war zone anymore. As ridiculous as it seems that peace could be achieved without withdrawing from 67 borders, it was similarly unthinkable for many republicans in Ireland that peace deals wouldnt involve UK withdrawal. Its still a contentious issue for many, but nobodys dying like in the past
I'm always a little surprised when people don't seem to appreciate how basic problem resolution comes about. I probably shouldn't be, given this is a very fundamental issue on a mass individual level. People don't know how to resolve their inner conflicts. Therefore, they sure as heck have no idea how to resolve the outer conflicts.
Peace begins within. Past that, it continues with the intention for peace. As long as the intention for separation, conflict, war, etc. is maintained by masses of individuals, it will continue externally.
Any step towards inner peace or outer peace is a valid, pertinent step towards peace. This is not utopian at all. As a matter of fact, the idea that steps towards peace is utopian is as ludicrous as believing problems won't be solved, and thereby willfully contributing to the perpetuation of problems.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
It may not be "proper" for the palestinians to initiatie this step, but if you really want to create that peace and have the process, it is in your benefit to do so. Neither side is willing to give the other half the benefit of the doubt, so the only thing that will work is one side to make the first move in correcting this long, awful conflict and have it get to a long lasting peaceful solution.
You keep saying Israel has to withdraw for this peace to begin. How does this help create a solution? In reality, Israel doesn't feel this to be true... in fact they feel the opposite, that Palestine has to show specific things inorder to come to the bargaining table. As I've stated before, neither side is willing to make the necessary steps, so it is up to one to go out of they typical pecking order, inorder to make the peace process work. Simply saying, one side should do something doesn't fix anything, because that side saying x needs to be is the only one who believes it to be true (both sides the say the same thing from opposing ends of the spectrum). What should be "just" or "proper" doesn't matter. All we can deal with and address is what is... and right now in time, no one is willing to do what the other half wants... so it's stuck... violence, death, occupation, etc is what will continue to result.
so you justify Israel staying in the occupied territory by saying 'not everything in this world is just'?? Is that what you're trying to say here because I really am confused. I just don't understand why you don't think Israel has to withdraw for peace to happen.
my point isn't that the Palestinians SHOULD NOT initiate peace. It's that they CANNOT.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
All we can deal with and address is what is... and right now in time, no one is willing to do what the other half wants... so it's stuck... violence, death, occupation, etc is what will continue to result.
This is true -- that it is what it is and that the exacting consequences will continue, as is -- except that there is a lot more we can do. We can do our own part within to raise our own awareness and consciousness, to be better enabled to understand, create peace and generate actual resolution. We can do what it takes to learn how to find peace and resolution within, and thereby how to create peace and resolution without so that we have true understanding of what is necessary, while letting go of what causes us to perpetuate the illusory, dangerous lines drawn in the sand. All the while we dramatically affect others at all levels of our existence, all around us, as we personally transition.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2002/491/28334
'Following Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon, an investigation into atrocities committed was undertaken by an international commission of six jurists, led by co-founder of Amnesty International Sean MacBride. The findings, supported by the majority of the jurists, found that Israel was guilty of attempted “ethnocide” and “genocide” of the Palestinian people and that there were no valid reasons “under international law for its invasion of Lebanon, for the manner in which it conducted hostilities, or for its actions as an occupying force”.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=LEN20070207&articleId=4715
'...The final master plan was called Plan D (Dalet in Hebrew) following plans A, B, and C preceding it. It was to be a war without mercy complying with what Ben-Gurion said in June, 1938 to the Jewish Agency Executive and never wavering from later: "I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it." Plan D became the way to do it. It included forcible expulsion of hundreds of thousands of unwanted Palestinian Arabs in urban and rural areas accompanied by an unknown number of others mass slaughtered to get it done. The goal was simple and straightforward - to create an exclusive Jewish state without an Arab presence by any means including mass-murder.
Once begun, the whole ugly business took six months to complete. It expelled about 800,000 people, killed many others, and destroyed 531 villages and 11 urban neighborhoods in cities like Tel-Aviv, Haifa and Jerusalem. The action was a clear case of ethnic cleansing that international law today calls a crime against humanity for which convicted Nazis at Nuremberg were hanged. So far Israelis have always remained immune from international law even though names of guilty leaders and those charged with implementing their orders are known as well as the crimes they committed."
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
'On April 9, 1948, members of the underground Jewish terrorist group, the Irgun, or IZL, led by Menachem Begin, who was to become the Israeli prime minister in 1977, entered the peaceful Arab village of Deir Yassin, massacred 250 men, women, children and the elderly, and stuffed many of the bodies down wells. There were also reports of rapes and mutilations. The Irgun was joined by the Jewish terrorist group, the Stern Gang, led by Yitzhak Shamir, who subsequently succeeded Begin as prime minister of Israel in the early '80s, and also by the Haganah, the militia under the control of David Ben Gurian. The Irgun, the Stern Gang and the Haganah later joined to form the Israeli Defense Force. Their tactics have not changed.'
Comments
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
you were trying to show that Israel is not committing genocide. am I right or wrong?
what's that?
bingo.
Waiting for the "blamed" party does have some logic to it, but this is the real world. How often does the wrong party come forward and apologise?
As long as a situation comes about that leads to people not living horrible day-to-day lives like outlaw has said, then thats whats important. and that the peace can be sustained.
what? you quoted me which was a response to Five...
I never claimed you said that. I said you were ignoring it. which you were.
my point isn't that the Palestinians SHOULD NOT initiate peace. It's that they CANNOT.
its all good, i wasnt involved in the other thread so i didnt know from reading this what the focus of the old one was. I merely objected to the Genocide issue. These threads often have mini-topics, i didnt intend to confuse.
yeh, i meant besides to disagreeing with the Genocide im not trying to prove anything. And even still, i wasnt trying to prove it, i just wasnt sure u understood the grounds i had for objecting. So i supplied more ammo. Same as anyone trying to convey a point on here
Its a heated topic, this kinda stuff brings out chalk & cheese types of opinions
i suggested a format similar to the Irish peace deals of the late 90's.
That wasnt meant to be a vague reference, it was a reference to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement
good basic outline of the background, and the number of contentious issues that had arisen in the previous deals struck over the preceeding 40 years that were all broken by parties on both sides.
Both governments, neutral ones, Leaders & Opposition, paramilitary groups, Mediators and religious figures all involved in bashing out a solution. Not easy, very protracted. But gets a result.
Founded on the idea that borders issues are better solved after achieving peace, cos the people arent living in a war zone anymore. As ridiculous as it seems that peace could be achieved without withdrawing from 67 borders, it was similarly unthinkable for many republicans in Ireland that peace deals wouldnt involve UK withdrawal. Its still a contentious issue for many, but nobodys dying like in the past
Peace begins within. Past that, it continues with the intention for peace. As long as the intention for separation, conflict, war, etc. is maintained by masses of individuals, it will continue externally.
Any step towards inner peace or outer peace is a valid, pertinent step towards peace. This is not utopian at all. As a matter of fact, the idea that steps towards peace is utopian is as ludicrous as believing problems won't be solved, and thereby willfully contributing to the perpetuation of problems.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
You keep saying Israel has to withdraw for this peace to begin. How does this help create a solution? In reality, Israel doesn't feel this to be true... in fact they feel the opposite, that Palestine has to show specific things inorder to come to the bargaining table. As I've stated before, neither side is willing to make the necessary steps, so it is up to one to go out of they typical pecking order, inorder to make the peace process work. Simply saying, one side should do something doesn't fix anything, because that side saying x needs to be is the only one who believes it to be true (both sides the say the same thing from opposing ends of the spectrum). What should be "just" or "proper" doesn't matter. All we can deal with and address is what is... and right now in time, no one is willing to do what the other half wants... so it's stuck... violence, death, occupation, etc is what will continue to result.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
'Following Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon, an investigation into atrocities committed was undertaken by an international commission of six jurists, led by co-founder of Amnesty International Sean MacBride. The findings, supported by the majority of the jurists, found that Israel was guilty of attempted “ethnocide” and “genocide” of the Palestinian people and that there were no valid reasons “under international law for its invasion of Lebanon, for the manner in which it conducted hostilities, or for its actions as an occupying force”.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=LEN20070207&articleId=4715
'...The final master plan was called Plan D (Dalet in Hebrew) following plans A, B, and C preceding it. It was to be a war without mercy complying with what Ben-Gurion said in June, 1938 to the Jewish Agency Executive and never wavering from later: "I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it." Plan D became the way to do it. It included forcible expulsion of hundreds of thousands of unwanted Palestinian Arabs in urban and rural areas accompanied by an unknown number of others mass slaughtered to get it done. The goal was simple and straightforward - to create an exclusive Jewish state without an Arab presence by any means including mass-murder.
Once begun, the whole ugly business took six months to complete. It expelled about 800,000 people, killed many others, and destroyed 531 villages and 11 urban neighborhoods in cities like Tel-Aviv, Haifa and Jerusalem. The action was a clear case of ethnic cleansing that international law today calls a crime against humanity for which convicted Nazis at Nuremberg were hanged. So far Israelis have always remained immune from international law even though names of guilty leaders and those charged with implementing their orders are known as well as the crimes they committed."
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
'On April 9, 1948, members of the underground Jewish terrorist group, the Irgun, or IZL, led by Menachem Begin, who was to become the Israeli prime minister in 1977, entered the peaceful Arab village of Deir Yassin, massacred 250 men, women, children and the elderly, and stuffed many of the bodies down wells. There were also reports of rapes and mutilations. The Irgun was joined by the Jewish terrorist group, the Stern Gang, led by Yitzhak Shamir, who subsequently succeeded Begin as prime minister of Israel in the early '80s, and also by the Haganah, the militia under the control of David Ben Gurian. The Irgun, the Stern Gang and the Haganah later joined to form the Israeli Defense Force. Their tactics have not changed.'
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=1007109