If you characterize the Israel/Palestine conflict as genocide is nothing but biased, bogus garbage. There are different degress of things in life. Albeit, this is bad, its certainly no-where near the level you claim it to be. And the only reason you do so, is because you try and push some biased opinion. You're rational is like that of a person who calls someone an alchoholic, when they just got drunk one night. Gimme a break man.
other than the fact that I've stated this was just 1 example of many, there's really not much to say to that.
just because I support the palestinians doesn't mean I have some secret agenda. my solution is the same as the rest of the world's. you just seem to ignore that.
On December 16, 1982, the United Nations General Assembly condemned the [Sabra and Shatila] massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide. Paragraph 2, which "resolved that the massacre was an act of genocide", was adopted by ninety-eight votes to nineteen, with twenty-three abstentions: All Western democracies abstained from voting.
Yeah, and if you read further down the Wiki article you just quoted many governments and UN members said later that they were wrong to call it a genocide.
Well done with the research though, that out-of-context sentence almost prooved your ridiculous point
You can designate anything you please, but it doesn't make it true. The fact remains, Israel is not systematically exterminating Palestinians - this is the definition of genocide. You point to loosely fitting examples, things like homelessness or attacks or even some massacres.... but none of them collectively amount to such a designation in a realistic manner.
Also, we've all heard your "resolution" several times already. It doesn't amount to much of a help when in a conflict between two groups, when both sides say to the other half - ok, you do x and then we'll do y. Not a very practical solution. It only forces the problem to continue.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Yeah, and if you read further down the Wiki article you just quoted many governments and UN members said later that they were wrong to call it a genocide.
Well done with the research though, that out-of-context sentence almost prooved your ridiculous point
Those governments were the ones who abstained from voting, most didn't even vote 'no'. The resolution passed by a majority, and just because the wiki article quotes a c ouple countries who disagree does not mean the majority did, as outlined by the resolution that I posted, and the fact that it passed. although do you think there's a connection with the fact that most countries who give political/financial support to israel didn't agree with the resolution?
You can designate anything you please, but it doesn't make it true. The fact remains, Israel is not systematically exterminating Palestinians - this is the definition of genocide. You point to loosely fitting examples, things like homelessness or attacks or even some massacres.... but none of them collectively amount to such a designation in a realistic manner.
It's not me who labels these terms, it's scholars such as Ilan Pappe, and Norman Finkelstein, and even the UN as I posted the example.
The other examples like ghettos and homeless weren't used as examples of genocide... they were used as comparisons to what the Jews went through in WWII.
Also, we've all heard your "resolution" several times already. It doesn't amount to much of a help when in a conflict between two groups, when both sides say to the other half - ok, you do x and then we'll do y. Not a very practical solution. It only forces the problem to continue.
The problem can't stop until Israel withdraws from the occupied territories. And you have given no solution yourself.
Some of the nations that either didn't vote or voted against such terms were Canada, Ireland, Signapore amongst others. Certainly not anti-Israel crowds as you claim.
Genocide label
On December 16, 1982, the United Nations General Assembly condemned the massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide.[22] Paragraph 2, which "resolved that the massacre was an act of genocide", was adopted by ninety-eight votes to nineteen, with twenty-three abstentions: All Western democracies abstained from voting.[23][24]
According to William Schabas, director of the Irish Centre for Human Rights at the National University of Ireland,[25] "the term genocide (…) had obviously been chosen to embarrass Israel rather than out of any concern with legal precision”.[24] This opinion is a reflection of the comments made by some of the delegates who took part in the debate. While all acknowledged that it was a massacre, the claim that it was a genocide was disputed, for example the delegate for Canada stated "The term genocide cannot, in our view, be applied to this particular inhuman act".[24] The delegate of Singapore added that "My delegation regrets the use of the term "an act of genocide" (…). [as] , the term 'genocide' is used to mean acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group".[24] and that "We also question whether the General Assembly has the competence to make such determination",[24] and the United States commented that "While the criminality of the massacre was beyond question, it was a serious and reckless misuse of language to label this tragedy genocide as defined in the 1948 Convention (…)".[24]
Also, if it bears some small similarities, doesn't mean they are the same. A cow and a horse both have 4 legs - but I doubt anyone would claim they are comparible in specifc and rational terms.
Lastly, it is of your opinion that the conflict can't stop until Israel does action x. There are just as many people on the other side of the spectrum who say the reverse. So obviously stating such doesn't produce a realistic solution to the problem.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Some of the nations that either didn't vote or voted against such terms were Canada, Ireland, Signapore amongst others. Certainly not anti-Israel crowds as you claim.
I think you meant to say "pro-Israel" in that sentence.
This passage does refer to Canada and Singapore, but not to Ireland specifically. It's a director in a University who mentioned this; not the delegate from Ireland.
And you still ignore the fact that 98 other countries voted that it was a genocide.
Also, if it bears some small similarities, doesn't mean they are the same. A cow and a horse both have 4 legs - but I doubt anyone would claim they are comparible in specifc and rational terms.
Oh, please. The inhumane treatment of Palestinians extends much farther than comparing two animals. Don't even joke about that.
Lastly, it is of your opinion that the conflict can't stop until Israel does action x. There are just as many people on the other side of the spectrum who say the reverse. So obviously stating such doesn't produce a realistic solution to the problem.
Oh really? what are their opinions?
More importantly, what's yours? I've asked several times about what your solution is, but I haven't heard anything other than "drop all weapons."
outlaw, your solution X (withdraw from I assume, West Bank and Gaza) is a great sound bite for al-jazerra but it is not truly the desire of the palestinian street. Which is why any such agreement from Israel will come with the caveat that all para military orginizations cease operation, all criminals are remanded to israeli prisons and that israel will retain the right to return to any community from which Israeli civilians are being fired upon. And muslims are not allowed to live like that according to the koran. (dhimmitude sucks when its the other way around huh)
so as others have tried to tell you this is like a dumb dog chasing its tail we can go around and around and around. You and some others believe one way and others the other. Thats fine.
Can we please have one or two more threads about this because it matters so much!!!!!!
"The really important thing is not to live, but to live well. And to live well meant, along with more enjoyable things in life, to live according to your principles."
— Socrates
outlaw, your solution X (withdraw from I assume, West Bank and Gaza) is a great sound bite for al-jazerra but it is not truly the desire of the palestinian street.
what the hell are you talking about?
Which is why any such agreement from Israel will come with the caveat that all para military orginizations cease operation, all criminals are remanded to israeli prisons and that israel will retain the right to return to any community from which Israeli civilians are being fired upon. And muslims are not allowed to live like that according to the koran. (dhimmitude sucks when its the other way around huh)
um... no, really, what are you talking about?
so as others have tried to tell you this is like a dumb dog chasing its tail we can go around and around and around. You and some others believe one way and others the other. Thats fine.
I honestly understood nothing from your post. do you mind explaining what you were even saying?
Can we please have one or two more threads about this because it matters so much!!!!!!
I don't know, I'd consider an issue like this important. If you don't then that's fine, feel free to stay out of the threads, and make your own.
Firstly, I wasn't compared Palestinians to animals in any way. You misunderstood. I simply made the point, just because two things have something in common, doesn't mean it's justified to compare them. In my example, I said a horse and cow.
Secondly, I've stated many times, that both sides need to step up and take the proper measures, actions and enact policies to create a peace policy. It doesn't matter who takes the first step. Either side can, but neither will - they'd both rather just blame the other half and say - they should do x first and then we'll do y. Gets us no where. I've pointed to the Oslo accords in many posts as the generic scenario in which both sides commit to making a peace. You don't acknowledge it though. For 50+ yrs this conflict has gone on because each side in more concerned about designating blame than to realistically come to a long-term solution which would benefit both groups. The closest we've seen to such a solution was Oslo and they did so by both, pro-actively meeting the other half in the middle and enabling the process to work. It wasn't about blame, it wasn't about saying group x has to this first, and then group y will then do something. It was about collaboration to make a peaceful solution and let the process work. This is where you're "solution" is inherintly flawed.
Lastly, we're repeating ourselves outlaw. No need to continuing post the same comments over and over or in different posts and threads. I think this topic has been beaten into the ground and unless new posters write something not touched upon or in a different perspective, there's no need to beat a dead horse.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Firstly, I wasn't compared Palestinians to animals in any way. You misunderstood. I simply made the point, just because two things have something in common, doesn't mean it's justified to compare them. In my example, I said a horse and cow.
I know you weren't calling them animals, but comparing animals that have the same number of legs as if it's the same as comparing this issue with a much greater issue is plain ridiculous. There are MANY similarities with this issue as to how the Jews were treated in WWII that you just seem to want to deny for no apparent reason. You ignore the fact that there are ghettos in Palestine/Israel where Arabs are subjected to curfews, many times 24-hour curfews, and many, many more things.
Secondly, I've stated many times, that both sides need to step up and take the proper measures, actions and enact policies to create a peace policy. It doesn't matter who takes the first step. Either side can, but neither will - they'd both rather just blame the other half and say - they should do x first and then we'll do y. Gets us no where. I've pointed to the Oslo accords in many posts as the generic scenario in which both sides commit to making a peace. You don't acknowledge it though. For 50+ yrs this conflict has gone on because each side in more concerned about designating blame than to realistically come to a long-term solution which would benefit both groups. The closest we've seen to such a solution was Oslo and they did so by both, pro-actively meeting the other half in the middle and enabling the process to work. It wasn't about blame, it wasn't about saying group x has to this first, and then group y will then do something. It was about collaboration to make a peaceful solution and let the process work. This is where you're "solution" is inherintly flawed.
Yeah, and that's a real cute response and all, but I've stated before - to which you ignored like many of my posts - how can you expect the Palestinians, such as Hamas, the democratically elected govt, to talk to Israel, when Israel is maintaining an occupation over them and refuses to even acknowledge them as the dem. elected govt?? Israel won't even talk to Hamas due to terms such as recognizing the right to exist, and renouncing violence. Both these terms Hamas won't do until Israel withdraws.
yes, you're right. we can keep going back and forth on this, but you must understand that this always leads to Israel withdrawing, and in the end, that's what must happen. Israel knows hamas would stop using violence if they withdrew, but again, they refuse to do so. so why don't you agree that Israel should do that? that's all I'm wondering:
why do you not agree that the peace process should start with Israel withdrawing from the occupied territories?
Lastly, we're repeating ourselves outlaw. No need to continuing post the same comments over and over or in different posts and threads. I think this topic has been beaten into the ground and unless new posters write something not touched upon or in a different perspective, there's no need to beat a dead horse.
I've yet to hear a solution from you other than "both parties need to step forward and talk" which is unrealistic considering the fact that this situation is much bigger and goes much deeper than you think.
We are 50 yrs into this conflict and if anything is going to change in a positive manner, it will be the result of both groups moving away from all the problems and issues which enable the conflict to continue. It is irrelevant who takes the first step towards this process. Waiting for the other half to do something first doesn't fix anything..... but being pro-active to get such a good solution does. And if you're not trying to do such, you're just as guilty of sealing your own fate as the other half you blame for such terrible actions.
Since we are on a PJ message board, here's a relevant song lyric:
That what you fear the most could meet you halfway.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
haha, cheap insults do nothing to make you look any better.
and I like how most people here ignore coming up any solution to the conflict other than "drop all weapons."
Hmmmm, historically peace & ceasefires are best reached by dropping weapons. Is there a violent alternative that leads to peace of which none of us are aware?
Seriously, i really think you need to research other instances in recent history where people have been displaced and victimised, and also cases of racial/religious conflict within small regions. There is NO simple solution in places where 2 groups of people clash over one piece of land that they both have a claim to.
Absolutely nothing about this is as one-sided or as simple as you seem to think this is. And like has already been said, there are clearly people who would disagree with your solution, so obviously its not a solution!! Thats politics mate.
If you really want to be specific about it, the other thread was intended to discuss a Palestinian being shot by an Israeli. This thread is to discuss actual solutions to the conflict.
Exactly.
This topic deserves a thread of it's own.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
If you characterize the Israel/Palestine conflict as genocide is nothing but biased, bogus garbage. There are different degress of things in life. Albeit, this is bad, its certainly no-where near the level you claim it to be. And the only reason you do so, is because you try and push some biased opinion. You're rational is like that of a person who calls someone an alchoholic, when they just got drunk one night. Gimme a break man.
Take away food (bulldoze) and land (bulldoze) for hundreds of thosands of people...then add in prevention to basic health standards
Guess what?! people start dying!
who knew??
(bogus my ass...)
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Please post a specific number of deaths that resulted specifically from this alleged Israeli genocide. Only include casualties from direct and specific action directed at the extermination of the said group, not secondhand actions (which is really what you're refering too).
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Please post a specific number of deaths that resulted specifically from this alleged Israeli genocide. Only include casualties from direct and specific action directed at the extermination of the said group, not secondhand actions (which is really what you're refering too).
secondhand action? If you really believe Israel can "accidentally" kill thousands of innocent people, then you really are lost. not to mention them preventing necessary things to be allowed in gaza such as food, medical supplies, and many times cutting off power supplies, etc... all resulting in more deaths.
http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story674.html
'...The Israeli government of the time pursued a policy of non- compromise, in order to prevent the return of the refugees "at any price" (as Ben Gurion himself put it), despite the fact that the UN General Assembly had been calling for this since 11 December 1948. Their villages were either destroyed or occupied by Jewish immigrants, and their lands were shared out between the surrounding kibbutzim. The law on "abandoned properties" - which was designed to make possible the seizure of any land belonging to persons who were "absent" - "legalized" this project of general confiscation as of December 1948. Almost 400 Arab villages were thus either wiped off the map or Judaised, as were most of the Arab quarters in mixed towns. According to a report drawn up in 1952, Israel had thus succeeded in expropriating 73,000 rooms in abandoned houses, 7,800 shops, workshops and warehouses, 5 million Palestinian pounds in bank accounts, and - most important of all - 300,000 hectares of land.
In "1948 and After" (chapter 4), Benny Morris deals at greater length with the role played by Yosef Weitz, who was at the time director of the Jewish National Fund's Lands Department. This man of noted Zionist convictions confided to his diary on 20 December 1940: "It must be clear that there is no room in the country for both people (...) the only solution is a Land of Israel, at least a western Land of Israel without Arabs. There is no room here for compromise. (...) There is no way but to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries(...) Not one village must be left, not one (bedouin) tribe."
http://www.robincmiller.com/pales2.htm
'...Throughout 1948, the massacres continued: 60 at Sa'sa' on Feb. 15; 100 murdered in Acre after its May 18 seizure by the Haganah; several hundred at Lydda on July 12, including 80 machine-gunned inside the Dahmash Mosque; 100 at Dawayma on Oct. 29, with an Israeli eye-witness reporting that "the children were killed by smashing their skulls with clubs"; 13 young men mowed down by machine guns in open fields outside Eilabun on Oct. 30; another 70 young men blindfolded and shot to death, one after another, at Safsaf the same day; 12 killed at Majd al-Kurum, also on Oct. 30, with a Belgian U.N. observer writing that "there is no doubt about these murders"; an unknown number killed the next day at al-Bi'na and Deir al-Assad, described by a U.N. official as "wanton slaying without provocation"; 14 "liquidated," according to the Israeli military's report, at Khirbet al-Wa'ra as-Sauda on Nov. 2.
A particularly repugnant method of killing employed by the Jewish militias was the blowing up of houses with their occupants still inside, often at night. The militia would place explosive charges around the stone houses, drench the wooden window and door frames with gasoline, and then open fire, simultaneously dynamiting and burning the sleeping inhabitants to death.
The supreme act of terrorism by Jewish militias was the slaughter of nearly the entire village of Deir Yassin on April 9, 1948. According to Jacques de Reynier, a Swiss physician working for the Red Cross who arrived before the bloodletting had ended, 254 people were "deliberately massacred in cold blood." "All I could think of," he later said, "was the SS troops I had seen in Athens." According to Meir Pa'il, who served as a communications officer for the Haganah in Deir Yassin and was present during the assault, 25 male survivors were taken to Jerusalem and paraded through the streets in a perverse victory celebration, then shot in cold blood.'
"'Israel is trying to wipe out the younger population. If young
people die, there is no future for Palestinians in the area.' The
Gaza-based Popular Committee Against the Siege (PCAS) last reported
the number of victims who had died preventable deaths as a result of
unattainable medical care under the siege as 212, the last two
victims being an 11-month-old infant and a 44-year-old father of
eight. Both died on Sunday, after being denied permits to exit Gaza
for treatment. "
reap and sow.... reap and sow...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Please post a specific number of deaths that resulted specifically from this alleged Israeli genocide. Only include casualties from direct and specific action directed at the extermination of the said group, not secondhand actions (which is really what you're refering too).
How bout I imprison and starve you and your family and you get back to me on the "stats"
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
How bout I imprison and starve you and your family and you get back to me on the "stats"
The contentious issue here is the word Genocide.
So you're saying it is a Genocide?
Does nobody here realise how easily Israel could kill off Palestine if they truly were carrying out a Genocide? You really underestimate how strong Israel are if you dont get that yet.
By your logic the Irish famine was a Genocide by the British? Pfft, come on, dont throw the word around just to add weight to an already genuine cause
Why not? You still haven't even given a reason other than how tragic the Holocaust was. That doesn't make this any less tragic. I don't even understand your point of me not having an argument. I compared two things together, and you still haven't even shown any differences. Both have cases of genocide, massacres, etc. Israel has displaced millions and killed hundreds of thousands Palestinians, probably, in the last 80 years or so.
You don't have an argument on your deduction that I am pro-israelian. Lets do some logic : you're pro-palestinian on the vast israel-palestine issue. Some people in this thread disagree with your opinions, therefore these people are pro-israelian. This is just wrong.
My problem is with your (imo) ludicrous comparison. Sabra is a massacre. A genocide is a systematic killing of an ethnic group identified by religion, culture or sexual preference in the explicit goal of completely destroying this group. Geno=ethnic group, cide=death. This is not the goal of Israel, but was the goal of Nazis. Now on the question "is Israel's policy towards Palestine a tragedy", I'll probably agree with you.
Israel has caused the problem. It's as simple as that. You can't try to throw in other Arab countries just to try to downplay what the Israelis are doing and saying "they do not make 100% of the problem." The problem is BECAUSE of Israel's occupation, how they steal land, destroy villages/houses, kill people, etc. The Arab countries have not been friendly to the Palestinians, and I know that personally, but that doesn't downplay anything Israel does, and is pretty irrelevant to the entire conflict.
Israel is not acting correctly or even trying to solve the problem but they are not alone. First of all they did not cause the problem, western countries, out of guilt and a lack of foresight, caused the problem. The solution is partly in the hands of Israel but not only. Arab countries around also need to stop manipulating the Palestinian cause for their ends. Like I said its a regional problem and will only be solved (if solved one day) by all the regional actors. And if the US/EU stop meddling as well.
Is this the generic life of the everyday, average Palestinian? Seriously, why must you state such over the top things. It completely takes away from any legitimate point you could potentially make.
As for you comments about genocide, please post a specific number of casualties in which Israel fully and knowingly tried to kill Palestinians with the intent of extermination. You can't such things because they're simply untrue. You take the facts and make a leap into some greater notion, where it doesn't belong.
How bout I imprison and starve you and your family and you get back to me on the "stats"
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Does nobody here realise how easily Israel could kill off Palestine if they truly were carrying out a Genocide? You really underestimate how strong Israel are if you dont get that yet.
Just because they don't walk into Gaza one day and decide to kill ALL PALESTINIANS within the second, does not mean that they have not been committing genocide for years. Genocide doesn't necessarily mean you wipe out the entire people in a few years, it could still mean over the course of years.
And the key point here is NOT genocide. The key point here is:
1) a comparison to how the Jews were treated in WWII. Not only genocide, but living in ghettos, imprisonment, starvation, torture, etc.
2) finding out actual solutions
none of which you have done. you've not offered a single solution. you ignore the fact that Israel has been doing MANY other things IN ADDITION to genocide. i'm not saying it's because you support Israel, but you still have been ignoring all other facts and focusing on one thing that fits whatever it is you're trying to prove.
You don't have an argument on your deduction that I am pro-israelian. Lets do some logic : you're pro-palestinian on the vast israel-palestine issue. Some people in this thread disagree with your opinions, therefore these people are pro-israelian. This is just wrong.
what the hell are you talking about, where did I call anyone "pro-israelian" in this thread? are people here finding ways to excuse israel's crimes? yes. but nowhere have I called anyone "pro-israelian."
My problem is with your (imo) ludicrous comparison. Sabra is a massacre. A genocide is a systematic killing of an ethnic group identified by religion, culture or sexual preference in the explicit goal of completely destroying this group. Geno=ethnic group, cide=death.
yes, and Israel has been committing this for decades. I already proved Sabra and Shatila was a case of genocide, no need to open that again. There is a systematic killing of an ethnic group, and that is the Palestinians. I suggest you read that book I posted above.
This is not the goal of Israel, but was the goal of Nazis. Now on the question "is Israel's policy towards Palestine a tragedy", I'll probably agree with you.
why the fuck does everyone here focus on the word genocide and ignore everything else?? Other than the fact that a genocide is occurring, you are sitting here ignoring all of Israel's other crimes. Just because Israel doesn't go on national television to say "Hi, I just want everyone here to know that we want to kill all Palestinians. Have a nice day." does not mean it's not happening.
Israel is not acting correctly or even trying to solve the problem but they are not alone. First of all they did not cause the problem, western countries, out of guilt and a lack of foresight, caused the problem. The solution is partly in the hands of Israel but not only. Arab countries around also need to stop manipulating the Palestinian cause for their ends. Like I said its a regional problem and will only be solved (if solved one day) by all the regional actors. And if the US/EU stop meddling as well.
The Israelis did, in fact, cause the problem. The Zionist movement of the early 1900s pushed the European governments to accept this. Obviously it's their faults too, and they are partially responsible for what is happening in Palestine, but quit trying to take the blame off of Israel who is the country that is committing all these crimes. The Arab countries are not to blame for Israel's occupation, their murders, their inhumane treatment of Palestinians, or anything else. When the Israelis decide they want peace, REAL PEACE, then they will have it.
Comments
just because I support the palestinians doesn't mean I have some secret agenda. my solution is the same as the rest of the world's. you just seem to ignore that.
Yeah, and if you read further down the Wiki article you just quoted many governments and UN members said later that they were wrong to call it a genocide.
Well done with the research though, that out-of-context sentence almost prooved your ridiculous point
Also, we've all heard your "resolution" several times already. It doesn't amount to much of a help when in a conflict between two groups, when both sides say to the other half - ok, you do x and then we'll do y. Not a very practical solution. It only forces the problem to continue.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
also, i recently read a poem on the boards that was about a Medeira bun. it makes reference to the buns mental capacity.
Thats a thinly veiled reference to a poster on here.....ah, it all comes full circle
and it wasn't taken out of context.
and I like how most people here ignore coming up any solution to the conflict other than "drop all weapons."
The other examples like ghettos and homeless weren't used as examples of genocide... they were used as comparisons to what the Jews went through in WWII.
The problem can't stop until Israel withdraws from the occupied territories. And you have given no solution yourself.
Genocide label
On December 16, 1982, the United Nations General Assembly condemned the massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide.[22] Paragraph 2, which "resolved that the massacre was an act of genocide", was adopted by ninety-eight votes to nineteen, with twenty-three abstentions: All Western democracies abstained from voting.[23][24]
According to William Schabas, director of the Irish Centre for Human Rights at the National University of Ireland,[25] "the term genocide (…) had obviously been chosen to embarrass Israel rather than out of any concern with legal precision”.[24] This opinion is a reflection of the comments made by some of the delegates who took part in the debate. While all acknowledged that it was a massacre, the claim that it was a genocide was disputed, for example the delegate for Canada stated "The term genocide cannot, in our view, be applied to this particular inhuman act".[24] The delegate of Singapore added that "My delegation regrets the use of the term "an act of genocide" (…). [as] , the term 'genocide' is used to mean acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group".[24] and that "We also question whether the General Assembly has the competence to make such determination",[24] and the United States commented that "While the criminality of the massacre was beyond question, it was a serious and reckless misuse of language to label this tragedy genocide as defined in the 1948 Convention (…)".[24]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_Massacre
Also, if it bears some small similarities, doesn't mean they are the same. A cow and a horse both have 4 legs - but I doubt anyone would claim they are comparible in specifc and rational terms.
Lastly, it is of your opinion that the conflict can't stop until Israel does action x. There are just as many people on the other side of the spectrum who say the reverse. So obviously stating such doesn't produce a realistic solution to the problem.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
This passage does refer to Canada and Singapore, but not to Ireland specifically. It's a director in a University who mentioned this; not the delegate from Ireland.
And you still ignore the fact that 98 other countries voted that it was a genocide.
Oh, please. The inhumane treatment of Palestinians extends much farther than comparing two animals. Don't even joke about that.
Oh really? what are their opinions?
More importantly, what's yours? I've asked several times about what your solution is, but I haven't heard anything other than "drop all weapons."
outlaw, your solution X (withdraw from I assume, West Bank and Gaza) is a great sound bite for al-jazerra but it is not truly the desire of the palestinian street. Which is why any such agreement from Israel will come with the caveat that all para military orginizations cease operation, all criminals are remanded to israeli prisons and that israel will retain the right to return to any community from which Israeli civilians are being fired upon. And muslims are not allowed to live like that according to the koran. (dhimmitude sucks when its the other way around huh)
so as others have tried to tell you this is like a dumb dog chasing its tail we can go around and around and around. You and some others believe one way and others the other. Thats fine.
Can we please have one or two more threads about this because it matters so much!!!!!!
— Socrates
um... no, really, what are you talking about?
I honestly understood nothing from your post. do you mind explaining what you were even saying?
I don't know, I'd consider an issue like this important. If you don't then that's fine, feel free to stay out of the threads, and make your own.
Secondly, I've stated many times, that both sides need to step up and take the proper measures, actions and enact policies to create a peace policy. It doesn't matter who takes the first step. Either side can, but neither will - they'd both rather just blame the other half and say - they should do x first and then we'll do y. Gets us no where. I've pointed to the Oslo accords in many posts as the generic scenario in which both sides commit to making a peace. You don't acknowledge it though. For 50+ yrs this conflict has gone on because each side in more concerned about designating blame than to realistically come to a long-term solution which would benefit both groups. The closest we've seen to such a solution was Oslo and they did so by both, pro-actively meeting the other half in the middle and enabling the process to work. It wasn't about blame, it wasn't about saying group x has to this first, and then group y will then do something. It was about collaboration to make a peaceful solution and let the process work. This is where you're "solution" is inherintly flawed.
Lastly, we're repeating ourselves outlaw. No need to continuing post the same comments over and over or in different posts and threads. I think this topic has been beaten into the ground and unless new posters write something not touched upon or in a different perspective, there's no need to beat a dead horse.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Yeah, and that's a real cute response and all, but I've stated before - to which you ignored like many of my posts - how can you expect the Palestinians, such as Hamas, the democratically elected govt, to talk to Israel, when Israel is maintaining an occupation over them and refuses to even acknowledge them as the dem. elected govt?? Israel won't even talk to Hamas due to terms such as recognizing the right to exist, and renouncing violence. Both these terms Hamas won't do until Israel withdraws.
yes, you're right. we can keep going back and forth on this, but you must understand that this always leads to Israel withdrawing, and in the end, that's what must happen. Israel knows hamas would stop using violence if they withdrew, but again, they refuse to do so. so why don't you agree that Israel should do that? that's all I'm wondering:
why do you not agree that the peace process should start with Israel withdrawing from the occupied territories?
I've yet to hear a solution from you other than "both parties need to step forward and talk" which is unrealistic considering the fact that this situation is much bigger and goes much deeper than you think.
Since we are on a PJ message board, here's a relevant song lyric:
That what you fear the most could meet you halfway.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Hmmmm, historically peace & ceasefires are best reached by dropping weapons. Is there a violent alternative that leads to peace of which none of us are aware?
Seriously, i really think you need to research other instances in recent history where people have been displaced and victimised, and also cases of racial/religious conflict within small regions. There is NO simple solution in places where 2 groups of people clash over one piece of land that they both have a claim to.
Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia, Congo, Rwanda, Kosovo.
Absolutely nothing about this is as one-sided or as simple as you seem to think this is. And like has already been said, there are clearly people who would disagree with your solution, so obviously its not a solution!! Thats politics mate.
Exactly.
This topic deserves a thread of it's own.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Take away food (bulldoze) and land (bulldoze) for hundreds of thosands of people...then add in prevention to basic health standards
Guess what?! people start dying!
who knew??
(bogus my ass...)
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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( o.O)
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Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
it's funny that some people can be so ignorant...
http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/3041
http://www.counterpunch.org/whitbeck01272007.html
http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story674.html
'...The Israeli government of the time pursued a policy of non- compromise, in order to prevent the return of the refugees "at any price" (as Ben Gurion himself put it), despite the fact that the UN General Assembly had been calling for this since 11 December 1948. Their villages were either destroyed or occupied by Jewish immigrants, and their lands were shared out between the surrounding kibbutzim. The law on "abandoned properties" - which was designed to make possible the seizure of any land belonging to persons who were "absent" - "legalized" this project of general confiscation as of December 1948. Almost 400 Arab villages were thus either wiped off the map or Judaised, as were most of the Arab quarters in mixed towns. According to a report drawn up in 1952, Israel had thus succeeded in expropriating 73,000 rooms in abandoned houses, 7,800 shops, workshops and warehouses, 5 million Palestinian pounds in bank accounts, and - most important of all - 300,000 hectares of land.
In "1948 and After" (chapter 4), Benny Morris deals at greater length with the role played by Yosef Weitz, who was at the time director of the Jewish National Fund's Lands Department. This man of noted Zionist convictions confided to his diary on 20 December 1940: "It must be clear that there is no room in the country for both people (...) the only solution is a Land of Israel, at least a western Land of Israel without Arabs. There is no room here for compromise. (...) There is no way but to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries(...) Not one village must be left, not one (bedouin) tribe."
'...Throughout 1948, the massacres continued: 60 at Sa'sa' on Feb. 15; 100 murdered in Acre after its May 18 seizure by the Haganah; several hundred at Lydda on July 12, including 80 machine-gunned inside the Dahmash Mosque; 100 at Dawayma on Oct. 29, with an Israeli eye-witness reporting that "the children were killed by smashing their skulls with clubs"; 13 young men mowed down by machine guns in open fields outside Eilabun on Oct. 30; another 70 young men blindfolded and shot to death, one after another, at Safsaf the same day; 12 killed at Majd al-Kurum, also on Oct. 30, with a Belgian U.N. observer writing that "there is no doubt about these murders"; an unknown number killed the next day at al-Bi'na and Deir al-Assad, described by a U.N. official as "wanton slaying without provocation"; 14 "liquidated," according to the Israeli military's report, at Khirbet al-Wa'ra as-Sauda on Nov. 2.
A particularly repugnant method of killing employed by the Jewish militias was the blowing up of houses with their occupants still inside, often at night. The militia would place explosive charges around the stone houses, drench the wooden window and door frames with gasoline, and then open fire, simultaneously dynamiting and burning the sleeping inhabitants to death.
The supreme act of terrorism by Jewish militias was the slaughter of nearly the entire village of Deir Yassin on April 9, 1948. According to Jacques de Reynier, a Swiss physician working for the Red Cross who arrived before the bloodletting had ended, 254 people were "deliberately massacred in cold blood." "All I could think of," he later said, "was the SS troops I had seen in Athens." According to Meir Pa'il, who served as a communications officer for the Haganah in Deir Yassin and was present during the assault, 25 male survivors were taken to Jerusalem and paraded through the streets in a perverse victory celebration, then shot in cold blood.'
http://worldpressnetwork.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=363
"'Israel is trying to wipe out the younger population. If young
people die, there is no future for Palestinians in the area.' The
Gaza-based Popular Committee Against the Siege (PCAS) last reported
the number of victims who had died preventable deaths as a result of
unattainable medical care under the siege as 212, the last two
victims being an 11-month-old infant and a 44-year-old father of
eight. Both died on Sunday, after being denied permits to exit Gaza
for treatment. "
reap and sow.... reap and sow...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
How bout I imprison and starve you and your family and you get back to me on the "stats"
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
The contentious issue here is the word Genocide.
So you're saying it is a Genocide?
Does nobody here realise how easily Israel could kill off Palestine if they truly were carrying out a Genocide? You really underestimate how strong Israel are if you dont get that yet.
By your logic the Irish famine was a Genocide by the British? Pfft, come on, dont throw the word around just to add weight to an already genuine cause
My problem is with your (imo) ludicrous comparison. Sabra is a massacre. A genocide is a systematic killing of an ethnic group identified by religion, culture or sexual preference in the explicit goal of completely destroying this group. Geno=ethnic group, cide=death. This is not the goal of Israel, but was the goal of Nazis. Now on the question "is Israel's policy towards Palestine a tragedy", I'll probably agree with you.
Israel is not acting correctly or even trying to solve the problem but they are not alone. First of all they did not cause the problem, western countries, out of guilt and a lack of foresight, caused the problem. The solution is partly in the hands of Israel but not only. Arab countries around also need to stop manipulating the Palestinian cause for their ends. Like I said its a regional problem and will only be solved (if solved one day) by all the regional actors. And if the US/EU stop meddling as well.
As for you comments about genocide, please post a specific number of casualties in which Israel fully and knowingly tried to kill Palestinians with the intent of extermination. You can't such things because they're simply untrue. You take the facts and make a leap into some greater notion, where it doesn't belong.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
And the key point here is NOT genocide. The key point here is:
1) a comparison to how the Jews were treated in WWII. Not only genocide, but living in ghettos, imprisonment, starvation, torture, etc.
2) finding out actual solutions
none of which you have done. you've not offered a single solution. you ignore the fact that Israel has been doing MANY other things IN ADDITION to genocide. i'm not saying it's because you support Israel, but you still have been ignoring all other facts and focusing on one thing that fits whatever it is you're trying to prove.
Here's some reading I suggest you do: http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851684670
yes, and Israel has been committing this for decades. I already proved Sabra and Shatila was a case of genocide, no need to open that again. There is a systematic killing of an ethnic group, and that is the Palestinians. I suggest you read that book I posted above.
why the fuck does everyone here focus on the word genocide and ignore everything else?? Other than the fact that a genocide is occurring, you are sitting here ignoring all of Israel's other crimes. Just because Israel doesn't go on national television to say "Hi, I just want everyone here to know that we want to kill all Palestinians. Have a nice day." does not mean it's not happening.
The Israelis did, in fact, cause the problem. The Zionist movement of the early 1900s pushed the European governments to accept this. Obviously it's their faults too, and they are partially responsible for what is happening in Palestine, but quit trying to take the blame off of Israel who is the country that is committing all these crimes. The Arab countries are not to blame for Israel's occupation, their murders, their inhumane treatment of Palestinians, or anything else. When the Israelis decide they want peace, REAL PEACE, then they will have it.