World War II was unnecessary

inmytree

_outlaw wrote:

So far, I've seen nothing offered. I've seen that you said "both sides need to make concessions", but I mean a full detailed plan. Who do you think should do what first?

perhaps you could tell us your solution...

you seem to know the answer, don't be shy...tell us...

FiveB247x

See here's where you miss the main point. It doesn't matter who does what first. If one side pro-actively takes steps towards a peace process, the other half will comply as well. But if neither do, we continue this 50+ yr conflict. If you keep saying, group x needs to go first, it's more about attaching blame to the issue compared to just realistically creating a peace process. Does Israel open up talks and say, we will stop causing attrocities if you do x,y and z? No. Does Palestine say, we will stop terror groups if you do x,y and z? No. Both sides (and those adamently backing each side) are more concerned about applying blame and telling the other half what they should comply with, compared to seriously taking steps in the right direction. When the Oslo accords were going on, both sides took steps to facilitate the peace and it was the closest we've seen to a peace in this conflict. That's what needs to occur.

Also, there's no need to have 2 threads about the same exact topic, so just pick one and write in there.

_outlaw wrote:

So far, I've seen nothing offered. I've seen that you said "both sides need to make concessions", but I mean a full detailed plan. Who do you think should do what first?

fuck

inmytree wrote:

perhaps you could tell us your solution...

you seem to know the answer, don't be shy...tell us...

Have you noticed why no one else has asked me? I've said my solution several times. It's the same solution that the rest of the world is for, other than both the US and Israel.

If Israel were to withdraw from the occupied territories, to the '67 borders, Hamas has said they would open talks with them. Hamas and Israel's negotiations could go a long way to creating an independent Palestinian state.

inmytree

_outlaw wrote:

Have you noticed why no one else has asked me? I've said my solution several times. It's the same solution that the rest of the world is for, other than both the US and Israel.

If Israel were to withdraw from the occupied territories, to the '67 borders, Hamas has said they would open talks with them. Hamas and Israel's negotiations could go a long way to creating an independent Palestinian state.

with this plan and one of these:

http://www.saphrym.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/50e7b552c45ad275.jpg

the problem will be solved...

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

See here's where you miss the main point. It doesn't matter who does what first. If one side pro-actively takes steps towards a peace process, the other half will comply as well. But if neither do, we continue this 50+ yr conflict. If you keep saying, group x needs to go first, it's more about attaching blame to the issue compared to just realistically creating a peace process. Does Israel open up talks and say, we will stop causing attrocities if you do x,y and z? No. Does Palestine say, we will stop terror groups if you do x,y and z? No. Both sides (and those adamently backing each side) are more concerned about applying blame and telling the other half what they should comply with, compared to seriously taking steps in the right direction. When the Oslo accords were going on, both sides took steps to facilitate the peace and it was the closest we've seen to a peace in this conflict. That's what needs to occur.

The first suicide bombing happened in 1994. Clearly, much before that, Israel was still stealing land. In order to start peace, Israel needs to take a step back. Why would the Palestinians, after 40 years of occupation, and 60 years of oppression, give in first? Logically, Israel should do it. The international community thinks so, as well.

Also, an article everyone should read: http://annies-letters.blogspot.com/2008/07/palestinian-bar-mitzvah-by-bassam.html

FiveB247x

You continue to associate blame with responsibility for facilitating the peace process. Both sides are responsible to create a peace and maintain it. Merely waiting for the other half only continues the conflict as we've seen over the past 50 yrs.

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

You continue to associate blame with responsibility for facilitating the peace process. Both sides are responsible to create a peace and maintain it. Merely waiting for the other half only continues the conflict as we've seen over the past 50 yrs.

Let me try to break this down for you.

The Israelis want land that's not theirs.

The Palestinians want land that IS theirs.

The Israelis are more powerful and steal the land.

The Palestinians fight back and it becomes an ongoing struggle.

I get your point. Going back and forth doesn't worth. I see where you're coming from. However, seeing as how Israel is occupying Palestinian land (do you disagree with that?) and that they're the more powerful force (or that?) then perhaps they should be the ones to withdraw from the occupied territories.

You see, there's also a difference between Hamas and Israel:

Hamas said if Israel withdraws to the '67 borders, they'll pretty much guarantee open talks and less violence.

Israel has NOT guaranteed anything for Hamas if they stop using violence other than "talks." No withdrawal. Nothing.

Kann

_outlaw wrote:

How do you think the Nazi occupation of Europe and it's genocide against the Jews is different than the Israeli occupation of Palestine and the genocide against the Palestinians?

This is ridiculous. I understand you meant to shock, but let's not get carried away. If you fail to see the difference between the Nazi occupation and Israel, start reading books. I hate this kind of bullshit, downplaying the horror of the Nazi doctrine is never a good idea.
Israel is wrong in its actions, we all agree on that. But, surprise, Israel isn't the only country with a shitty policy towards Palestine. Did you see how Egypt reacted (for reminders the country involved in wars with Israel over the occupation) when Palestinians tried to flee in the Sinaï? Palestine is getting help from nowhere, but the bad guys aren't just jews.

fuck

Kann wrote:

This is ridiculous. I understand you meant to shock, but let's not get carried away. If you fail to see the difference between the Nazi occupation and Israel, start reading books.

Why don't you just explain it to me? Sure, the Nazi occupation was on a more massive scale, but the fact that Israel has been doing this same thing for 60 years doesn't make it much better.

I hate this kind of bullshit, downplaying the horror of the Nazi doctrine is never a good idea.

What about "downplaying the horror of the" ISRAELI "doctrine"?? Most people on this board seem to have no problem doing that. You included.

Israel is wrong in its actions, we all agree on that. But, surprise, Israel isn't the only country with a shitty policy towards Palestine. Did you see how Egypt reacted (for reminders the country involved in wars with Israel over the occupation) when Palestinians tried to flee in the Sinaï? Palestine is getting help from nowhere, but the bad guys aren't just jews.

Are you trying to justify Israel's blatant occupation and murder of the Palestinian people by saying that atleast Egypt isn't doing anything either??
Wow. Now THAT is ridiculous.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

_outlaw wrote:

Israel has NOT guaranteed anything for Hamas if they stop using violence other than "talks." No withdrawal. Nothing.

...and therein lies the rub...

Kann

What about "downplaying the horror of the" ISRAELI "doctrine"?? Most people on this board seem to have no problem doing that. You included.

Nice deduction, link it to a statement and you still wouldn't have an argument. You just dodged my point : by using nazi comparison in every different issue, however painful and complex, we are just trivializing what they did. Israel sucks, the situation sucks, what we (as collective nations) are doing sucks. But it's not a reason to use nazi comparisons.

Are you trying to justify Israel's blatant occupation and murder of the Palestinian people by saying that atleast Egypt isn't doing anything either??
Wow. Now THAT is ridiculous.

No I'm not justifying anything. I'm saying that the problem is regional, not just Israel vs. Palestinians. With all the good will in the world (and I agree, they really aren't there) Israel couldn't do much if surrounding countries do not get their shit together as well.
I disagree with almost everything Israel does concerning foreign policy but they do not make 100% of the problem.

fuck

Kann wrote:

Nice deduction, link it to a statement and you still wouldn't have an argument. You just dodged my point : by using nazi comparison in every different issue, however painful and complex, we are just trivializing what they did. Israel sucks, the situation sucks, what we (as collective nations) are doing sucks. But it's not a reason to use nazi comparisons.

Why not? You still haven't even given a reason other than how tragic the Holocaust was. That doesn't make this any less tragic. I don't even understand your point of me not having an argument. I compared two things together, and you still haven't even shown any differences. Both have cases of genocide, massacres, etc. Israel has displaced millions and killed hundreds of thousands Palestinians, probably, in the last 80 years or so.

No I'm not justifying anything. I'm saying that the problem is regional, not just Israel vs. Palestinians. With all the good will in the world (and I agree, they really aren't there) Israel couldn't do much if surrounding countries do not get their shit together as well.
I disagree with almost everything Israel does concerning foreign policy but they do not make 100% of the problem.

Israel has caused the problem. It's as simple as that. You can't try to throw in other Arab countries just to try to downplay what the Israelis are doing and saying "they do not make 100% of the problem." The problem is BECAUSE of Israel's occupation, how they steal land, destroy villages/houses, kill people, etc. The Arab countries have not been friendly to the Palestinians, and I know that personally, but that doesn't downplay anything Israel does, and is pretty irrelevant to the entire conflict.

canadajammer

_outlaw wrote:

I'm not going to offer a practical solution either. I'm just going to say that war is unnecessary. If it meant decades of more suffering for the Jews, so be it. but fighting is NOT the answer. Maybe the Jews could've performed better nonviolent protests instead of complaining of being killed?

Decades of more suffering for the Jews, so be it? The Jews could've performed better?

You clearly haven't researched this subject well enough.

There wouldn't have been more decades of suffering for European Jews, because they would have virtually all been exterminated. Salughter of millions of people (jews and others) is so place to sit around a campfire and talk about your differences. Without WW2, Hitler would have done far more damage than he already did. I support non-violence to a point, but certainly not Pacifism.

There was no chance to just 'perform better.' Death camps, concentration camps. Those were inescapable realities for Jews.

canadajammer

To compare Israel-Palestine conflict to genocide, the Holocaust and WW2 is just insane, silly, idiotic and offensive.

fuck

Colorsblending9 wrote:

Decades of more suffering for the Jews, so be it? The Jews could've performed better?

You clearly haven't researched this subject well enough.

There wouldn't have been more decades of suffering for European Jews, because they would have virtually all been exterminated. Salughter of millions of people (jews and others) is so place to sit around a campfire and talk about your differences. Without WW2, Hitler would have done far more damage than he already did. I support non-violence to a point, but certainly not Pacifism.

There was no chance to just 'perform better.' Death camps, concentration camps. Those were inescapable realities for Jews.

If you didn't notice, that was sarcasm.

fuck

Colorsblending9 wrote:

To compare Israel-Palestine conflict to genocide, the Holocaust and WW2 is just insane, silly, idiotic and offensive.

oh yeah? how so?

canadajammer

ha, clearly I didn't...

JordyWordy

_outlaw wrote:

You still haven't even given a reason other than how tragic the Holocaust was.

I compared two things together, and you still haven't even shown any differences.

Im very pro-palestine but your blindness with the Nazi comparison is ridiculous, and making you sound ignorant of the lessons of WW2.

Nazis wanted to kill every person on the planet that didnt fit their ideal profile. as horrendous as Israels crimes have been, termination of whole cultures, races and people with physical/mental handicaps is not specifically their primary aim. Preservation of their own was their primary aim. (and yeah, they lost the run of themselves in 67)

_outlaw wrote:

Israel has caused the problem. It's as simple as that. You can't try to throw in other Arab countries just to try to downplay what the Israelis are doing and saying "they do not make 100% of the problem." The problem is BECAUSE of Israel's occupation, how they steal land, destroy villages/houses, kill people, etc. The Arab countries have not been friendly to the Palestinians, and I know that personally, but that doesn't downplay anything Israel does, and is pretty irrelevant to the entire conflict.

Referring to other countries doesnt downplay what Israel does. The Arab League dont accept Israel. There are flipsides to all the points you're making.

Being (1) Irish, and (2) Pro-Palestine I can understand your general position. But your points you're making here are too focused on the past.

Do you think Irish peace deals were struck by blaming the UK for invading 800 years ago? Get fucking real and wake up. It takes two to tango, and that includes striking peace deals.

canadajammer

_outlaw wrote:

oh yeah? how so?

It is clear what the Nazis did was genocide. It was mass mudered. They murdered over 10 million innocent civilians, many who were German citizens. And included in this gross figure was 6 million Jews. It was a clear, concice, organizd method of mass extermination. Part of Hitler's plan was to eradicate the Earth of Jews.


Jews wanted a homeland. They were given a portion of the 'transjordan/palestine' land that was previously controlled by the British Empire and the Ottoman empire before them. Yes people were displaced, (whether forced out, forced because of weaker conditions, or chose to leave). However, the goal of the Jews was to gain a homeland, a place to live as Jews. Their goal was never to exterminate arabs or muslims from the region. Israel's goal has always been to secure and live in a safe and democratic country for Jews. (repeated history since the exile of the Jews shows why Jews/Israelis want a homeland).

Yes there has been wars between the Israelis and surrounding Arab nations. But never genocide or mass extermination. In fact, it was the surrounding Arab nations who called for the complete destruction of Israel.

So far no genocide, mass extermination, deliberate attempt to murder an entire race of people.


Now more recently, in a time of suicide bombers and security fences, we are seeing both sides losing, mostly the innocent people and children who with or near Hamas militants.

Everyone agrees the situation now is hard, its unfortunate, and Israel has made some wrong decisions. Then again, I don't know what coutnry could possibly make all the right decisions if they were in the same scenario as Israel.

If Israel was like the Nazis, there wouldn't be 20 percent Arabs living in Israel as citizens. Yeah, just like in other societies, a minority might not be living in as good conditions as the rest of the country, but they aren't being Murdered!

If Israel was like the Nazis, they would attack every Arab country they could.



It's clear Israel wants to maintain statehood and maintain the security of its citizens. Now, of course there are many aspects of what Israel is doing you can criticize or call flat out wrong. However, comparing Israel to the Nazis is laughable and ridiculous. The two are simply fundamentally different.

fuck

JordyWordy wrote:

Im very pro-palestine but your blindness with the Nazi comparison is ridiculous, and making you sound ignorant of the lessons of WW2.

Nazis wanted to kill every person on the planet that didnt fit their ideal profile. as horrendous as Israels crimes have been, termination of whole cultures, races and people with physical/mental handicaps is not specifically their primary aim. Preservation of their own was their primary aim. (and yeah, they lost the run of themselves in 67)

Israel is still responsible for genocide of Palestinians, demolishing homes, causing homelessness, creating areas VERY similar to the ghettos, etc. I already said the Nazis were on a much more massive scale, obviously, but there's still similarities that can't be ignored. Their primary aim is land that is not theirs, and if that means doing all the things I mentioned, they seem to have no problem with doing that.

Referring to other countries doesnt downplay what Israel does. The Arab League dont accept Israel. There are flipsides to all the points you're making.

What does the Arab League not accepting Israel have to do with the illegal occupation and the deaths of innocent Palestinians?

Being (1) Irish, and (2) Pro-Palestine I can understand your general position. But your points you're making here are too focused on the past.

Not really. The occupation is running well today. There are still tons of Palestinians being killed.

Do you think Irish peace deals were struck by blaming the UK for invading 800 years ago? Get fucking real and wake up. It takes two to tango, and that includes striking peace deals.

Firstly: comparing 800 years to 60 years is pretty ridiculous. Other than that though, where have I said that peace deals shouldn't happen? That they were a bad idea?? I said in order for peace to happen, Israel must FIRST withdraw from the occupied territories. THEN, Hamas will respond with initiating peace and ending violence, while they have talks. Israel must initiate this process by withdrawing first though, and stopping their illegal occupation, isolation of Gaza, killing, etc...