Is this the generic life of the everyday, average Palestinian? Seriously, why must you state such over the top things. It completely takes away from any legitimate point you could potentially make.
YES!!!! IT IS the life of an everyday Palestinian!!!! You really just don't know how life is over there.
As for you comments about genocide, please post a specific number of casualties in which Israel fully and knowingly tried to kill Palestinians with the intent of extermination. You can't such things because they're simply untrue. You take the facts and make a leap into some greater notion, where it doesn't belong.
Just because the numbers aren't high enough for you people to finally wake the fuck up, does not mean it's not happening. Maybe you'd rather wait until the Israelis have killed 1million Palestinians, or 2 million, or 5.
You don't "accidentally" kill hundreds of thousands of people, destroy their villages, barely allow them the necessary of items like power and electricity, medicine, food, for decades.
How about you do some reading too? Click that link above.
Don't be condescending and tell me to read... as if to say, if people have a different opinion from your own, its because "they don't know enough" or "read enough". To my knowledge, you're a generic poster on a message board, not the know all, say all in the Israel/Palestine conflict... ie a human with an opinion.. just like anyone else.
You keep alluding to the fact that the Palestinian population is dwindling, yet statistics say otherwise. Wouldn't the population decrease if all the people are truly starving? Populations need food, they don't grow if they don't have food... ie if the population is increasing, they have food. This is a truism of any population throughout the history of the world.
YES!!!! IT IS the life of an everyday Palestinian!!!! You really just don't know how life is over there.
Just because the numbers aren't high enough for you people to finally wake the fuck up, does not mean it's not happening. Maybe you'd rather wait until the Israelis have killed 1million Palestinians, or 2 million, or 5.
You don't "accidentally" kill hundreds of thousands of people, destroy their villages, barely allow them the necessary of items like power and electricity, medicine, food, for decades.
How about you do some reading too? Click that link above.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Don't be condescending and tell me to read... as if to say, if people have a different opinion from your own, its because "they don't know enough" or "read enough". To my knowledge, you're a generic poster on a message board, not the know all, say all in the Israel/Palestine conflict... ie a human with an opinion.. just like anyone else.
what?? where did I ever say you don't read enough. you people really just put words in my mouth. I said "do some reading."
You keep alluding to the fact that the Palestinian population is dwindling, yet statistics say otherwise. Wouldn't the population decrease if all the people are truly starving? Populations need food, they don't grow if they don't have food... ie if the population is increasing, they have food. This is a truism of any population throughout the history of the world.
I never said the population is dwindling. Again, you put words in my mouth. Thousands of people die, and the conditions they are living in are very comparable to the Jews in WWII. Does that mean that Palestinians are going to stop having kids or something?
It is a fact that the poor have more children than the rich. THIS is a truism of any population throughout the history of the world.
All of your posts have proven that you just ignore my main points and head to ridiculous things like wanting "statistics" for death counts, rather than seeing the fact that 418 villages were destroyed, 1 million Palestinians were kicked out or ran away due to fear, many are living in SEVERELY harsh conditions, apartheid is taking place over there, and the Israelis are all doing this because people like you excuse them for it.
Poor people may have more children, but where are these children from and made from? Obviously people need food to survive and multiply in population. So if the average Palestinian is starving as you claim and has no food, what exactly are their population eating or made from? Human beings are made from the food they eat. If you don't have food, you don't survive. The Palestinian population has increased, therefore they're not starving.
Also, I don't excuse anyting anyone does. Both sides are very, very guilty of continuing this conflict, to say one side is the mere guilty party and the other is innocent of any wrong doing at all, is mere bias and not factual.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Poor people may have more children, but where are these children from and made from? Obviously people need food to survive and multiply in population. So if the average Palestinian is starving as you claim and has no food, what exactly are their population eating or made from? Human beings are made from the food they eat. If you don't have food, you don't survive. The Palestinian population has increased, therefore they're not starving.
do you not read news? do you not see people starving? the Palestinians in Gaza survive on less food a day, then you eat in a single meal. yes, now I'm asking you if you ACTUALLY read because clearly you do not understand the situation there if you think the Palestinians have food. :rolleyes:
Also, I don't excuse anyting anyone does. Both sides are very, very guilty of continuing this conflict, to say one side is the mere guilty party and the other is innocent of any wrong doing at all, is mere bias and not factual.
The only thing that is not factual in that sentence is claiming that I said "the other side is innocent of ANY WRONG DOING AT ALL" which is a complete lie. However, Israel is the one continuing the violence, which they could stop if they wanted to. They are the ones continuing the occupation, continuing the inhumane treatment of Palestinians. To even say the Palestinians are "very, very guilty of continuing this conflict" is not only a MAJOR overstatement, but it's completely ridiculous and not factual, when you look at facts, think about possible solutions, and look at the history of the conflict. All of which you refuse to do.
You are excusing the Israelis' actions. Not only are they FAR MORE severe and not only do they commit atrocious acts, but you simply ignore it by saying "it's not only their faults." As if the Palestinians need to grow balls and handle this suffering like true men... :rolleyes:
This conflict is 50+ yrs ongoing now... there have been many times that Palestine was pro-actively causing violence vs innocent civilians. There were many times when Israel wasn't causing pro-actively causing all the destruction we see now and Palestine wouldn't recognize Israel as a state. My point as you can see, is that both sides had their role of both innocent and guilty party in this 50 yr conflict. You claim because what you see in one portion in time, that it summarizes the entire conflict. That simply isn't factual or true. It is your opinion and that doesn't make you correct. Lastly, I do not condone the killing or suffering of any people, no matter who perpetrates such things or for what reasons some believe it to be justified. The man who gets punches, and punches in response is just as guilty of wrongdoing. Non-violence will lead to progress and solutions, not justifying retaliations and certainly not condoning such responses.
Ps, there are people throughout the world (and many in the US - the richest nation in the world), who live or have means below the poverty line, who is guilty of their malltreatment? You claim because you have a party to point at as guilty it's ok to mention, I find it more of a sidenote to reality. Roughly 30 yrs ago when Pan-arabism was spreading in the Middle East and the likes of Egypt, Lebonon, Jordan and others became adamently anti-Israel and wouldn't even recognize them as a state, none-the-less, make peace, you brush over such facts because the shoe is on the other foot now and now many find it as a gross injustice. Just as you claim there's nothing for Palestinians to do to create peace now and it's all in the Israeli's hands now, the situation was reversed... but let's ignore all these historical facts and just pick a side and continue arguing so nothing positive or substanial will change. It's much easier.
You are excusing the Israelis' actions. Not only are they FAR MORE severe and not only do they commit atrocious acts, but you simply ignore it by saying "it's not only their faults." As if the Palestinians need to grow balls and handle this suffering like true men... :rolleyes:
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
what the hell are you talking about, where did I call anyone "pro-israelian" in this thread? are people here finding ways to excuse israel's crimes? yes. but nowhere have I called anyone "pro-israelian."
Same same, me disagreeing with you does not mean I excuse anything.
yes, and Israel has been committing this for decades. I already proved Sabra and Shatila was a case of genocide, no need to open that again. There is a systematic killing of an ethnic group, and that is the Palestinians. I suggest you read that book I posted above.
why the fuck does everyone here focus on the word genocide and ignore everything else?? Other than the fact that a genocide is occurring, you are sitting here ignoring all of Israel's other crimes. Just because Israel doesn't go on national television to say "Hi, I just want everyone here to know that we want to kill all Palestinians. Have a nice day." does not mean it's not happening.
Ok, forget it. I think that comparing the Israel-Palestine conflict to ww2 and jews to nazis is particularly stupid, obnoxious and insulting. But hey, that's just my own and personal opinion.
Same same, me disagreeing with you does not mean I excuse anything.
I said 'people' not you. You guys really are bad at getting whatever you want from what people say.
Ok, forget it. I think that comparing the Israel-Palestine conflict to ww2 and jews to nazis is particularly stupid, obnoxious and insulting. But hey, that's just my own and personal opinion.
"what you said was stupid, obnoxious and insulting... but I won't say why."
This conflict is 50+ yrs ongoing now... there have been many times that Palestine was pro-actively causing violence vs innocent civilians. There were many times when Israel wasn't causing pro-actively causing all the destruction we see now and Palestine wouldn't recognize Israel as a state.
why should Palestine recognize Israel as a state?
And you know what, where should they recognize this occupier's state? Israel has no official borders. the fact that you think Palestine should recognize a country that is occupying them and killing them is ridiculous. Yes there were times were Palestine retaliated, and I never said they were never violent. The fact of the matter is the Israel is the aggressor and the occupier in this conflict, and they must be the ones to stop it.
My point as you can see, is that both sides had their role of both innocent and guilty party in this 50 yr conflict.
Israel has been around for 60 years. The Zionists have been working for 120 years+. But I digress. The point is that you can't show Palestine is the aggressor or the occupier in this conflict because they aren't. Robbing a liquor store doesn't make you Charlie Manson.
You claim because what you see in one portion in time, that it summarizes the entire conflict.
In this case, YOU are the one seeing one portion in time. I have been talking about the 60+ years Israel has been committing atrocious acts. You keep mentioning Palestinian violence, which has only actually begun to take place on a bigger scale in the early 90s.
That simply isn't factual or true. It is your opinion and that doesn't make you correct.
No. I'm reporting facts. You, on the other hand, have just been saying that 'the way you word things is wrong' or something, even though it isn't. you still haven't reported any facts other than "both people are guilty!!!!"
Lastly, I do not condone the killing or suffering of any people, no matter who perpetrates such things or for what reasons some believe it to be justified. The man who gets punches, and punches in response is just as guilty of wrongdoing.
what about the man who gets raped, tortured, watches his family get killed, his house taken away... then he decides to punch the guy back. is he just as guilty?
Non-violence will lead to progress and solutions, not justifying retaliations and certainly not condoning such responses.
have you not read anyone's posts? Byrnzie posted an article asking 'when has non-violence worked in an occupation or a humanitarian crisis?' Meanwhile, I've stated several times that the Palestinians have tried, and still do, non-violent tactics. They lead to nothing but more deaths. You just don't seem to want to understand that because it doesn't fit your theory of 'if everyone threw their guns away, we could all be friends.'
Ps, there are people throughout the world (and many in the US - the richest nation in the world), who live or have means below the poverty line, who is guilty of their malltreatment?
do you even know what is going on in Gaza? almost 50% of the people there are unemployed. it's a humanitarian crisis like no other. Denying something like this is ridiculous. it's not comparable to anything. they barely have the necessary tools to survive. do you even know how many people live in gaza alone?
You claim because you have a party to point at as guilty it's ok to mention, I find it more of a sidenote to reality.
well then, I suggest you do some reading on this. atleast the news. something. because clearly you are either misinformed from a wrong news source, or you just haven't read about the crisis going on in gaza.
Roughly 30 yrs ago when Pan-arabism was spreading in the Middle East and the likes of Egypt, Lebonon, Jordan and others became adamently anti-Israel and wouldn't even recognize them as a state, none-the-less, make peace, you brush over such facts because the shoe is on the other foot now and now many find it as a gross injustice.
'roughly 30 years ago' Israel started a war and stole land from these countries. 'roughly 30 years ago' Israel entered Lebanon and occupied many parts of it for 18 years.
Just as you claim there's nothing for Palestinians to do to create peace now and it's all in the Israeli's hands now, the situation was reversed... but let's ignore all these historical facts and just pick a side and continue arguing so nothing positive or substanial will change. It's much easier.
ignore historical facts? that's what you've been doing for 3 threads so far. every single post you ignore any fact given and try to excuse the fact that israel is responsible for it by saying things like "poverty is all over the place. you blame it on someone who is OCCUPYING another person?? impossible!" :rolleyes:
you seem to just want to ignore the fact that there is an occupation going on. you never even mention it in your posts. for some reason, you don't seem to think that Israel must pull out for peace to happen.
Once again, all you've stated is one side is innocent and the other is guilty. Applying blame (which is arbitrary and based on your opinion) is more important than finding a solution.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Outlaw, your passion about your chosen topic is commendable. However, you're not willing to consider opinions that disagree with yours. Inability to question or consider conflicting opinions other than your own undermines your credibility. Rigid and unyielding rhetoric is making you just sound like an anti-israel extremist. Extremism simply does not create a peaceful solution like your claiming it would.
If you want to vent steam / feel big and force us into your line of thinking then join a real debating team, or public speaking forum. if you dont like our reactions i can only imagine the response you would get when you take your voice to reasonable public forums.
Exert your ego somewhere you cant hide behind a keyboard, and see how far your Nazi comparisons get you then
Sorry if you feel this post in some way "ignores your points" or "fails to provide a solution"....
Is this the generic life of the everyday, average Palestinian? Seriously, why must you state such over the top things. It completely takes away from any legitimate point you could potentially make.
As for you comments about genocide, please post a specific number of casualties in which Israel fully and knowingly tried to kill Palestinians with the intent of extermination. You can't such things because they're simply untrue. You take the facts and make a leap into some greater notion, where it doesn't belong.
You just don't get it do you?
more of a statement rather than a question
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Once again, all you've stated is one side is innocent and the other is guilty. Applying blame (which is arbitrary and based on your opinion) is more important than finding a solution.
No. I'm saying one side has the upper hand and is clearly the more powerful one. Which is why that side is occupying the other side. It is not so balanced as you claim it to be. In order for there to be peace, the stronger side must back down first.
Outlaw, your passion about your chosen topic is commendable. However, you're not willing to consider opinions that disagree with yours. Inability to question or consider conflicting opinions other than your own undermines your credibility. Rigid and unyielding rhetoric is making you just sound like an anti-israel extremist. Extremism simply does not create a peaceful solution like your claiming it would.
extremist? so calling Israel out all of a sudden makes me an extremist? Nice. Thanks for the "constructive criticism." But the problem is, no one here really is presenting an opinion. In fact... I really don't even know what anyone is presenting. so far, you guys have criticized me and said "both people are at fault" and "this is not genocide." sure, those CAN be opinions, but the fact of the matter is that history and the present both have facts that present otherwise. just cause both people are at fault does not mean one is more than the other.
and this isn't "he stole my cookie so I took his lollipop," so no weak analogies, please. this is an occupation taking place, and the fact that you guys choose to focus on whether or not it is a genocide rather than whether or not Israel should withdraw from the occupied territories says a lot about yourselves.
If you want to vent steam / feel big and force us into your line of thinking then join a real debating team, or public speaking forum. if you dont like our reactions i can only imagine the response you would get when you take your voice to reasonable public forums.
Exert your ego somewhere you cant hide behind a keyboard, and see how far your Nazi comparisons get you then
Lol. do you even know me?? who's to say I'm not already involved in things outside of the internet? :rolleyes:
Sorry if you feel this post in some way "ignores your points" or "fails to provide a solution"....
I refer to when Roland and outlaw have clearly expressed that they are not being heard and in some cases are being misunderstood and misconstrued. I can clearly see how this is happening in their cases, when those who are not understanding and are misconstruing do not seem to see this. I think it's important to recognize that this is about the lack of being able to bridge differences into understanding. It's not merely about differences of opinion being present.
When others are not being heard, and are being misunderstood or misconstrued, yes, of course it totally applies.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
No. I'm saying one side has the upper hand and is clearly the more powerful one. Which is why that side is occupying the other side. It is not so balanced as you claim it to be. In order for there to be peace, the stronger side must back down first.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
so far, you guys have criticized me and said "both people are at fault" and "this is not genocide." sure, those CAN be opinions, but the fact of the matter is that history and the present both have facts that present otherwise. just cause both people are at fault does not mean one is more than the other.
and this isn't "he stole my cookie so I took his lollipop," so no weak analogies, please. this is an occupation taking place, and the fact that you guys choose to focus on whether or not it is a genocide rather than whether or not Israel should withdraw from the occupied territories says a lot about yourselves.
Riiiiiiight. You seem to be lumping my posts in with other peoples.
I contested your use of Genocide. You clearly disagree. Fine.
Ive said also that Ireland is a good example of how to achieve peace in these situations....you didnt seem to like that....fine.
Mostly i have not contested most of your responses cos i mostly agree with your stance on israel shitting all over palestine. I already told you to stop filling your responses to me with anti-Israel shit, yet you keep doing it. im not arguing those points with you cos i think theyre right.
Fucks sake, why are u arguing with EVERY single point thats being made?
Yet you keep demanding an answer from me , for a "Solution".
I dont have a coherent, 10-step solution to the problem. I never suggested i did.
Im glad you think yours is great.
If you can get it to work ill be even more impressed
Yes, and it must START with the occupier and the more powerful one.
Circular arguing gets boring. You've already stated thats your opinion. Re-typing it doesnt make it gospel.
I agree with it mostly, but try calming down.
Also, i said i cud imagine the response you'd get if you spoke publicly in a MODERATE environment. Obviously you'll fit in at a pro-palestine lobbying or whatever. The point was that if this conversation was taking place with us present with each other, you'd be the guy that shouts everyone down and skews their points.
You dont want people to suggest peace, you just want to berate us with your opinion that yours is the best
I hadnt referred to the issue of withdrawal because by saying im pro-palestine, i thought it was pretty much understood that thats what i want to see. Withdrawal from pre 67 areas though, not all of Israel. They have right to be there too. do i have to spell that out in every single fucking post i make?
if you'd like to elaborate on your comparison to Ireland's conflict, i'd be happy to listen.
You never responded to that (Post #45), which is fine.
I dont have a coherent, 10-step solution to the problem. I never suggested i did.
Im glad you think yours is great.
If you can get it to work ill be even more impressed
Circular arguing gets boring. You've already stated thats your opinion. Re-typing it doesnt make it gospel.
Sorry if you're bored, I'll try to be more entertaining next time.
I agree with it mostly, but try calming down.
who said I'm not calm? Is it because some words are in capitalized letters (to emphasize on them) that it means I'm not calm?
Also, i said i cud imagine the response you'd get if you spoke publicly in a MODERATE environment. Obviously you'll fit in at a pro-palestine lobbying or whatever. The point was that if this conversation was taking place with us present with each other, you'd be the guy that shouts everyone down and skews their points.
Again, you clearly know nothing about me, what I do, where I speak at, or... well, anything at all. meaningless insults really "undermine your credibility." :rolleyes:
You dont want people to suggest peace, you just want to berate us with your opinion that yours is the best
I'm sure you'd know what I want. clearly, you really want peace because you've been addressing it in your posts... oh wait, all I've seen so far is wild accusations and insults flying directly at me.
I hadnt referred to the issue of withdrawal because by saying im pro-palestine, i thought it was pretty much understood that thats what i want to see. Withdrawal from pre 67 areas though, not all of Israel. They have right to be there too. do i have to spell that out in every single fucking post i make?
am I even talking to you when I say that? I'm talking to Five.
you need to calm down.
edit: oh, and I never said withdrawal from all of Israel. In fact, no one did. I said '67 borders.
Says who... you because you find a it be the necessary step? You may feel it is justified and many may agree.. but in reality, just because something is just, doesn't mean that is what will occur. In fantasy land where everyone person and nation did as they should (within law, etc) it would be the proper step, but we live in the real world, where what should be doesn't mean anything but a wish. And as the old saying goes, you can crap in one hand and wish in the other.... which do you think will fill your hand first?
Yes, and it must START with the occupier and the more powerful one.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
And the key point here is NOT genocide. The key point here is:
1) a comparison to how the Jews were treated in WWII. Not only genocide, but living in ghettos, imprisonment, starvation, torture, etc.
2) finding out actual solutions
none of which you have done. you've not offered a single solution. you ignore the fact that Israel has been doing MANY other things IN ADDITION to genocide. i'm not saying it's because you support Israel, but you still have been ignoring all other facts and focusing on one thing that fits whatever it is you're trying to prove.
by the way, this is the post that makes me think youre not getting me at all.
I havnt ignored what israel have done in addition to the "genocide". I didnt refer to outright, but there are reasons im pro-palestine, like i said in one of my very first posts.
Im not trying to prove shit. Im throwing out possibilities for discussion on an internet board.
I'm sure you'd know what I want. clearly, you really want peace because you've been addressing it in your posts... oh wait, all I've seen so far is wild accusations and insults flying directly at me..
edit: oh, and I never said withdrawal from all of Israel. In fact, no one did. I said '67 borders.
i know no one did. then again, i never said Israel didnt commit attrocities against palestinian people....so i thought spelling things out clearly might help avoid confusion from now on
Comments
Just because the numbers aren't high enough for you people to finally wake the fuck up, does not mean it's not happening. Maybe you'd rather wait until the Israelis have killed 1million Palestinians, or 2 million, or 5.
You don't "accidentally" kill hundreds of thousands of people, destroy their villages, barely allow them the necessary of items like power and electricity, medicine, food, for decades.
How about you do some reading too? Click that link above.
You keep alluding to the fact that the Palestinian population is dwindling, yet statistics say otherwise. Wouldn't the population decrease if all the people are truly starving? Populations need food, they don't grow if they don't have food... ie if the population is increasing, they have food. This is a truism of any population throughout the history of the world.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I never said the population is dwindling. Again, you put words in my mouth. Thousands of people die, and the conditions they are living in are very comparable to the Jews in WWII. Does that mean that Palestinians are going to stop having kids or something?
It is a fact that the poor have more children than the rich. THIS is a truism of any population throughout the history of the world.
All of your posts have proven that you just ignore my main points and head to ridiculous things like wanting "statistics" for death counts, rather than seeing the fact that 418 villages were destroyed, 1 million Palestinians were kicked out or ran away due to fear, many are living in SEVERELY harsh conditions, apartheid is taking place over there, and the Israelis are all doing this because people like you excuse them for it.
Also, I don't excuse anyting anyone does. Both sides are very, very guilty of continuing this conflict, to say one side is the mere guilty party and the other is innocent of any wrong doing at all, is mere bias and not factual.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
The only thing that is not factual in that sentence is claiming that I said "the other side is innocent of ANY WRONG DOING AT ALL" which is a complete lie. However, Israel is the one continuing the violence, which they could stop if they wanted to. They are the ones continuing the occupation, continuing the inhumane treatment of Palestinians. To even say the Palestinians are "very, very guilty of continuing this conflict" is not only a MAJOR overstatement, but it's completely ridiculous and not factual, when you look at facts, think about possible solutions, and look at the history of the conflict. All of which you refuse to do.
Ps, there are people throughout the world (and many in the US - the richest nation in the world), who live or have means below the poverty line, who is guilty of their malltreatment? You claim because you have a party to point at as guilty it's ok to mention, I find it more of a sidenote to reality. Roughly 30 yrs ago when Pan-arabism was spreading in the Middle East and the likes of Egypt, Lebonon, Jordan and others became adamently anti-Israel and wouldn't even recognize them as a state, none-the-less, make peace, you brush over such facts because the shoe is on the other foot now and now many find it as a gross injustice. Just as you claim there's nothing for Palestinians to do to create peace now and it's all in the Israeli's hands now, the situation was reversed... but let's ignore all these historical facts and just pick a side and continue arguing so nothing positive or substanial will change. It's much easier.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Ok, forget it. I think that comparing the Israel-Palestine conflict to ww2 and jews to nazis is particularly stupid, obnoxious and insulting. But hey, that's just my own and personal opinion.
"what you said was stupid, obnoxious and insulting... but I won't say why."
:rolleyes:
And you know what, where should they recognize this occupier's state? Israel has no official borders. the fact that you think Palestine should recognize a country that is occupying them and killing them is ridiculous. Yes there were times were Palestine retaliated, and I never said they were never violent. The fact of the matter is the Israel is the aggressor and the occupier in this conflict, and they must be the ones to stop it.
Israel has been around for 60 years. The Zionists have been working for 120 years+. But I digress. The point is that you can't show Palestine is the aggressor or the occupier in this conflict because they aren't. Robbing a liquor store doesn't make you Charlie Manson.
In this case, YOU are the one seeing one portion in time. I have been talking about the 60+ years Israel has been committing atrocious acts. You keep mentioning Palestinian violence, which has only actually begun to take place on a bigger scale in the early 90s.
No. I'm reporting facts. You, on the other hand, have just been saying that 'the way you word things is wrong' or something, even though it isn't. you still haven't reported any facts other than "both people are guilty!!!!"
what about the man who gets raped, tortured, watches his family get killed, his house taken away... then he decides to punch the guy back. is he just as guilty?
have you not read anyone's posts? Byrnzie posted an article asking 'when has non-violence worked in an occupation or a humanitarian crisis?' Meanwhile, I've stated several times that the Palestinians have tried, and still do, non-violent tactics. They lead to nothing but more deaths. You just don't seem to want to understand that because it doesn't fit your theory of 'if everyone threw their guns away, we could all be friends.'
do you even know what is going on in Gaza? almost 50% of the people there are unemployed. it's a humanitarian crisis like no other. Denying something like this is ridiculous. it's not comparable to anything. they barely have the necessary tools to survive. do you even know how many people live in gaza alone?
well then, I suggest you do some reading on this. atleast the news. something. because clearly you are either misinformed from a wrong news source, or you just haven't read about the crisis going on in gaza.
'roughly 30 years ago' Israel started a war and stole land from these countries. 'roughly 30 years ago' Israel entered Lebanon and occupied many parts of it for 18 years.
ignore historical facts? that's what you've been doing for 3 threads so far. every single post you ignore any fact given and try to excuse the fact that israel is responsible for it by saying things like "poverty is all over the place. you blame it on someone who is OCCUPYING another person?? impossible!" :rolleyes:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7523113.stm
even the UK thinks they should talk to Hamas now.
you seem to just want to ignore the fact that there is an occupation going on. you never even mention it in your posts. for some reason, you don't seem to think that Israel must pull out for peace to happen.
In other news, West Bank settlements almost approved:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7523348.stm
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
If you want to vent steam / feel big and force us into your line of thinking then join a real debating team, or public speaking forum. if you dont like our reactions i can only imagine the response you would get when you take your voice to reasonable public forums.
Exert your ego somewhere you cant hide behind a keyboard, and see how far your Nazi comparisons get you then
Sorry if you feel this post in some way "ignores your points" or "fails to provide a solution"....
You just don't get it do you?
more of a statement rather than a question
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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( o.O)
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Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
and this isn't "he stole my cookie so I took his lollipop," so no weak analogies, please. this is an occupation taking place, and the fact that you guys choose to focus on whether or not it is a genocide rather than whether or not Israel should withdraw from the occupied territories says a lot about yourselves.
Lol. do you even know me?? who's to say I'm not already involved in things outside of the internet? :rolleyes:
apology accepted.
and...no...they don't get yours or outlaw's perspective.
When they understand, they'll show it with understanding. Until we have understanding, the conflict goes on and on...
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
it goes both ways...
you know that, right...?
I refer to when Roland and outlaw have clearly expressed that they are not being heard and in some cases are being misunderstood and misconstrued. I can clearly see how this is happening in their cases, when those who are not understanding and are misconstruing do not seem to see this. I think it's important to recognize that this is about the lack of being able to bridge differences into understanding. It's not merely about differences of opinion being present.
When others are not being heard, and are being misunderstood or misconstrued, yes, of course it totally applies.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Riiiiiiight. You seem to be lumping my posts in with other peoples.
I contested your use of Genocide. You clearly disagree. Fine.
Ive said also that Ireland is a good example of how to achieve peace in these situations....you didnt seem to like that....fine.
Mostly i have not contested most of your responses cos i mostly agree with your stance on israel shitting all over palestine. I already told you to stop filling your responses to me with anti-Israel shit, yet you keep doing it. im not arguing those points with you cos i think theyre right.
Fucks sake, why are u arguing with EVERY single point thats being made?
Yet you keep demanding an answer from me , for a "Solution".
I dont have a coherent, 10-step solution to the problem. I never suggested i did.
Im glad you think yours is great.
If you can get it to work ill be even more impressed
Circular arguing gets boring. You've already stated thats your opinion. Re-typing it doesnt make it gospel.
I agree with it mostly, but try calming down.
Also, i said i cud imagine the response you'd get if you spoke publicly in a MODERATE environment. Obviously you'll fit in at a pro-palestine lobbying or whatever. The point was that if this conversation was taking place with us present with each other, you'd be the guy that shouts everyone down and skews their points.
You dont want people to suggest peace, you just want to berate us with your opinion that yours is the best
I hadnt referred to the issue of withdrawal because by saying im pro-palestine, i thought it was pretty much understood that thats what i want to see. Withdrawal from pre 67 areas though, not all of Israel. They have right to be there too. do i have to spell that out in every single fucking post i make?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
who said I'm not calm? Is it because some words are in capitalized letters (to emphasize on them) that it means I'm not calm?
Again, you clearly know nothing about me, what I do, where I speak at, or... well, anything at all. meaningless insults really "undermine your credibility." :rolleyes:
I'm sure you'd know what I want. clearly, you really want peace because you've been addressing it in your posts... oh wait, all I've seen so far is wild accusations and insults flying directly at me.
am I even talking to you when I say that? I'm talking to Five.
you need to calm down.
edit: oh, and I never said withdrawal from all of Israel. In fact, no one did. I said '67 borders.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
by the way, this is the post that makes me think youre not getting me at all.
I havnt ignored what israel have done in addition to the "genocide". I didnt refer to outright, but there are reasons im pro-palestine, like i said in one of my very first posts.
Im not trying to prove shit. Im throwing out possibilities for discussion on an internet board.
Youre the one trying to prove something
And every country in the world except for the U.S. and Israel.
right, so i havent mentioned peace then?
So your post which quoted me was directed at Five? ....fair enough, if you say so
i know no one did. then again, i never said Israel didnt commit attrocities against palestinian people....so i thought spelling things out clearly might help avoid confusion from now on