if you find out new (controversial) information contrary to what was previously thought, it merits further investigation.
no it doesn't. when faced with new information, the first thing you should do is verify its authenticity. if you can verify it, then the previously held belief should be questioned. You automatically assume everything you hear that is contrary to the commonly held belief is true, or at least partially true. you hold it in the same regard and with the same validity. you dont see how unbelievably foolish this is?
Progressive in the sense that if you find out new (controversial) information contrary to what was previously thought, it merits further investigation rather than then opposite based on ingrained beliefs. Like the saying...however wives tales got started in the first place. War and propaganda go together very well.
The problem with that is that there are mountains of documents supporting the current beliefs of what transpired during the holocaust. Eye witness testimonials, Nazi's documents, etc... I understand progressive thinking and not settling for what the status quo is, but when it comes to an event in history that is very well documented there is need. Have there been some events and statistics that may have been exaggerated, I'm sure their is. Where the remains of Jews used to make lampshades, soap, wallets, etc... maybe maybe not. Where 1.1 million Jews killed at Auschwitz by gassing or was it only 600,000 and the rest died of disease and starvation? All this study of nuance doesn't change the fact that the Nazi's where responsible for the murder of millions of innocent civilians simply based on their religion and/or ethnicity. It doesn't matter if they where starved, shot, or gassed. It was done deliberetly and mercilessly and that is all that really matters. People like Cole and Irving aren't out there to try to discover some hidden truth. They are out their to discredit a historical event by any means necessary. They will nit-pick at things such as the bar of soap at the museum and use that as a basis to further their cause.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Can someone here create a website that says "Joe is not a condescending ass" ??..maybe then, Roland will discover that his theory about me is wrong.
yeah the part where you insinuated they were my hero's
condescending..... sorry...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
The problem with that is that there are mountains of documents supporting the current beliefs of what transpired during the holocaust. Eye witness testimonials, Nazi's documents, etc... I understand progressive thinking and not settling for what the status quo is, but when it comes to an event in history that is very well documented there is need. Have there been some events and statistics that may have been exaggerated, I'm sure their is. Where the remains of Jews used to make lampshades, soap, wallets, etc... maybe maybe not. Where 1.1 million Jews killed at Auschwitz by gassing or was it only 600,000 and the rest died of disease and starvation? All this study of nuance doesn't change the fact that the Nazi's where responsible for the murder of millions of innocent civilians simply based on their religion and/or ethnicity. It doesn't matter if they where starved, shot, or gassed. It was done deliberetly and mercilessly and that is all that really matters. People like Cole and Irving aren't out there to try to discover some hidden truth. They are out their to discredit a historical event by any means necessary. They will nit-pick at things such as the bar of soap at the museum and use that as a basis to further their cause.
...
Well stated... Thank you.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
The problem with that is that there are mountains of documents supporting the current beliefs of what transpired during the holocaust. Eye witness testimonials, Nazi's documents, etc... I understand progressive thinking and not settling for what the status quo is, but when it comes to an event in history that is very well documented there is need. Have there been some events and statistics that may have been exaggerated, I'm sure their is. Where the remains of Jews used to make lampshades, soap, wallets, etc... maybe maybe not. Where 1.1 million Jews killed at Auschwitz by gassing or was it only 600,000 and the rest died of disease and starvation? All this study of nuance doesn't change the fact that the Nazi's where responsible for the murder of millions of innocent civilians simply based on their religion and/or ethnicity. It doesn't matter if they where starved, shot, or gassed. It was done deliberetly and mercilessly and that is all that really matters. People like Cole and Irving aren't out there to try to discover some hidden truth. They are out their to discredit a historical event by any means necessary. They will nit-pick at things such as the bar of soap at the museum and use that as a basis to further their cause.
if you find out new (controversial) information contrary to what was previously thought, it merits further investigation.
no it doesn't. when faced with new information, the first thing you should do is verify its authenticity. if you can verify it, then the previously held belief should be questioned. You automatically assume everything you hear that is contrary to the commonly held belief is true, or at least partially true. you hold it in the same regard and with the same validity. you dont see how unbelievably foolish this is?
Exactly. Two museum pieces were proven to be fake scientifically. Investigate further.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
The problem with that is that there are mountains of documents supporting the current beliefs of what transpired during the holocaust. Eye witness testimonials, Nazi's documents, etc... I understand progressive thinking and not settling for what the status quo is, but when it comes to an event in history that is very well documented there is need. Have there been some events and statistics that may have been exaggerated, I'm sure their is. Where the remains of Jews used to make lampshades, soap, wallets, etc... maybe maybe not. Where 1.1 million Jews killed at Auschwitz by gassing or was it only 600,000 and the rest died of disease and starvation? All this study of nuance doesn't change the fact that the Nazi's where responsible for the murder of millions of innocent civilians simply based on their religion and/or ethnicity. It doesn't matter if they where starved, shot, or gassed. It was done deliberetly and mercilessly and that is all that really matters. People like Cole and Irving aren't out there to try to discover some hidden truth. They are out their to discredit a historical event by any means necessary. They will nit-pick at things such as the bar of soap at the museum and use that as a basis to further their cause.
If the majority were murdered purposefully (gassed) it does matter quite a bit v.s. passive aggression i.e. by do nothing to help.
One reality is far more atrocious....(and perhaps exaggerated).
That's all I'm saying and getting at.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
If the majority were murdered purposefully (gassed) it does matter quite a bit v.s. passive aggression i.e. by do nothing to help.
One reality is far more atrocious....(and perhaps exaggerated).
That's all I'm saying and getting at.
No one isn't. It doesn't matter wether you gas, starve or shoot them. It was still done delibretly. One is not more atrocious than the other, they are all equally atrocious. If I round up your family because they are different than I. I place one member in a gas chamber and kill him, another I shoot, and the others I use as slaves and provide insufficient food, clothing, and place them in deplorable living condition where disease can spread quickly causing most to die I am no less a monster and it is no less a crime simply because I didn't offer the majority a quick death.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
No one isn't. It doesn't matter wether you gas, starve or shoot them. It was still done delibretly. One is not more atrocious than the other, they are all equally atrocious. If I round up your family because they are different than I. I place one member in a gas chamber and kill him, another I shoot, and the others I use as slaves and provide insufficient food, clothing, and place them in deplorable living condition where disease can spread quickly causing most to die I am no less a monster and it is no less a crime simply because I didn't offer the majority a quick death.
Agree, when it all boils down.
From a troop perspective I would imagine it is. If the average soldier spent his time knowingly processing people for death like a psycho machine v.s. just biding one's time as people lie weak, sick, and dying in barracks.
One man gives a ridiculous order and the rest society is forced to adapt to it.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
roland, do you think if all the prisoners that died from starvation, disease, etc., actually didn't die from those things that they'd be excused from any gassing? just because they didn't make it to the gas chamber doesn't mean they wouldn't have eventually made that trip.
roland, do you think if all the prisoners that died from starvation, disease, etc., actually didn't die from those things that they'd be excused from any gassing? just because they didn't make it to the gas chamber doesn't mean they wouldn't have eventually made that trip.
Perhaps. One can't say for certain. It may have reached breaking point, where soldiers themselves refused to carry out the genocide. Perhaps, perhaps not, perhaps not right away. My point is I think the German soldiers were just regular people with regular lives and families. As the war progressed Hitler became increasingly enraged, and insane, and made more outlandish demands.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Granted the Nazi's are responsible, however the manner in which people died needs to be considered. How many died of disease and starvation rather than being gassed to death? There was no soap made from the people. There were no lampshades made from their skin as trophy pieces.
The vents in the roof of the gas chamber (to systematically drop the gas in) at Auschwitz were built AFTER the war. ..... I'm still shaking my head at this one.
No traces of gas were found on the walls inside the gas chamber, yet the delousing chambers measured zyklon gas off the charts, It seems a lot of zyklon gas was used to keep clothes and other items sanitary.
I'd be curious to see how much was from natural disease and starvation as a prisoner of war v.s. the strictly business slaughterhouse ideology.
One would think there would only be kitchen facilities for the guards if this was the case.
I was always of the opinion that approx 10 million were killed, not the customary figure of 6 million.
Anyway, how do you kill 6 - 10 million people through disease alone. I don't buy it.
Have you seen the documentary 'Shoah'? There's first hand testimony there from both sides - Nazi's and Jews - about what went on.
And also, we need to keep in mind what the Nazis did prior to the gas chambers being built - i.e, mass shootings. They shot 33,000 in the quarry at Babi Yar in Bellorussia alone. You think that after all the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of mass shootings, that the Nazis then decided to use 'disease' as a method of mass extermination? I don't buy it. If the gas chambers were a myth then what happened to all the women and chilren who when they arrived at the Death camps? Most were dead within 24 hours.
I was always of the opinion that approx 10 million were killed, not the customary figure of 6 million.
Anyway, how do you kill 6 - 10 million people through disease alone. I don't buy it.
Have you seen the documentary 'Shoah'? There's first hand testimony there from both sides - Nazi's and Jews - about what went on.
And also, we need to keep in mind what the Nazis did prior to the gas chambers being built - i.e, mass shootings. They shot 33,000 in the quarry at Babi Yar in Bellorussia alone. You think that after all the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of mass shootings, that the Nazis then decided to use 'disease' as a method of mass extermination? I don't buy it. If the gas chambers were a myth then what happened to all the women and chilren who when they arrived at the Death camps? Most were dead within 24 hours.
I had you all wrong. good post. and I apologize for being such a dick in the middle east thread. cheers
Its much easier for him to voice his hate through the extreme words of others.
Its healthy to question history, but he takes it to the point of just being vastly antisocial. Perhaps he is so unloved that he likes to look for ways to be different.
Actually, Roland's never struck me as a hateful person. Far from it. I don't agree with him o this occasion, but I still respect his tendency to scour alternative info. Gotta give it to him.
...My point is I think the German soldiers were just regular people with regular lives and families.
I agree with that. It's unfortunate that we will probably never understand unless we are in the situation ourselves the kind of control and thinking that feeds on the base nature of human beings in order to get them to do some of the things we see done in times of war.
If the majority were murdered purposefully (gassed) it does matter quite a bit v.s. passive aggression i.e. by do nothing to help.
One reality is far more atrocious....(and perhaps exaggerated).
That's all I'm saying and getting at.
Do nothing to help?!
How about not discriminate against them, making their lives impossible, and then loading them on trains and interning them in camps in murderous conditions?
... and the will to show I will always be better than before.
Actually, Roland's never struck me as a hateful person. Far from it. I don't agree with him o this occasion, but I still respect his tendency to scour alternative info. Gotta give it to him.
I had you all wrong. good post. and I apologize for being such a dick in the middle east thread. cheers
So you agree that over 1 million Iraq's have been killed from the result of the US occupation? I have to say I would find that very surprising.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
It's like when you go to church and you ask certain questions like...."who created god...because I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this concept?"
Then the minister and the congregation think you're either an idiot or a comedian.
I'd like to think that some of the Holocaust tales are a little scetchy (now don't blast me) because I find it unbelievably hard to conceptualize that an entire country could be so blinded by patriotism that such would ever occur.
Perhaps it's denial, I'm not a defender of the Nazi's....not ever...but I understand Roland's m.o. (to a degree) to not blindly accept all historical "facts".
Like he said it is interesting to view differing perspectives. It's not always black and white. It doesn't mean that you have to accept those views. We can all draw our own opinions.
Anyway the best lesson of WWII is that we should never blindly follow our government and it's oppressive whims.
Comments
The problem with that is that there are mountains of documents supporting the current beliefs of what transpired during the holocaust. Eye witness testimonials, Nazi's documents, etc... I understand progressive thinking and not settling for what the status quo is, but when it comes to an event in history that is very well documented there is need. Have there been some events and statistics that may have been exaggerated, I'm sure their is. Where the remains of Jews used to make lampshades, soap, wallets, etc... maybe maybe not. Where 1.1 million Jews killed at Auschwitz by gassing or was it only 600,000 and the rest died of disease and starvation? All this study of nuance doesn't change the fact that the Nazi's where responsible for the murder of millions of innocent civilians simply based on their religion and/or ethnicity. It doesn't matter if they where starved, shot, or gassed. It was done deliberetly and mercilessly and that is all that really matters. People like Cole and Irving aren't out there to try to discover some hidden truth. They are out their to discredit a historical event by any means necessary. They will nit-pick at things such as the bar of soap at the museum and use that as a basis to further their cause.
yeah the part where you insinuated they were my hero's
condescending..... sorry...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Well stated... Thank you.
Hail, Hail!!!
very well put!
Exactly. Two museum pieces were proven to be fake scientifically. Investigate further.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
If the majority were murdered purposefully (gassed) it does matter quite a bit v.s. passive aggression i.e. by do nothing to help.
One reality is far more atrocious....(and perhaps exaggerated).
That's all I'm saying and getting at.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
And you'd still be wrong.
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
No one isn't. It doesn't matter wether you gas, starve or shoot them. It was still done delibretly. One is not more atrocious than the other, they are all equally atrocious. If I round up your family because they are different than I. I place one member in a gas chamber and kill him, another I shoot, and the others I use as slaves and provide insufficient food, clothing, and place them in deplorable living condition where disease can spread quickly causing most to die I am no less a monster and it is no less a crime simply because I didn't offer the majority a quick death.
Agree, when it all boils down.
From a troop perspective I would imagine it is. If the average soldier spent his time knowingly processing people for death like a psycho machine v.s. just biding one's time as people lie weak, sick, and dying in barracks.
One man gives a ridiculous order and the rest society is forced to adapt to it.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
That's what happens when the people of a country place more importance on their national pride than on their humanity.
~D.K.S.
Perhaps. One can't say for certain. It may have reached breaking point, where soldiers themselves refused to carry out the genocide. Perhaps, perhaps not, perhaps not right away. My point is I think the German soldiers were just regular people with regular lives and families. As the war progressed Hitler became increasingly enraged, and insane, and made more outlandish demands.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I was always of the opinion that approx 10 million were killed, not the customary figure of 6 million.
Anyway, how do you kill 6 - 10 million people through disease alone. I don't buy it.
Have you seen the documentary 'Shoah'? There's first hand testimony there from both sides - Nazi's and Jews - about what went on.
And also, we need to keep in mind what the Nazis did prior to the gas chambers being built - i.e, mass shootings. They shot 33,000 in the quarry at Babi Yar in Bellorussia alone. You think that after all the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of mass shootings, that the Nazis then decided to use 'disease' as a method of mass extermination? I don't buy it. If the gas chambers were a myth then what happened to all the women and chilren who when they arrived at the Death camps? Most were dead within 24 hours.
I had you all wrong. good post. and I apologize for being such a dick in the middle east thread. cheers
Actually, Roland's never struck me as a hateful person. Far from it. I don't agree with him o this occasion, but I still respect his tendency to scour alternative info. Gotta give it to him.
I agree with that. It's unfortunate that we will probably never understand unless we are in the situation ourselves the kind of control and thinking that feeds on the base nature of human beings in order to get them to do some of the things we see done in times of war.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Do nothing to help?!
How about not discriminate against them, making their lives impossible, and then loading them on trains and interning them in camps in murderous conditions?
I agree.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
So you agree that over 1 million Iraq's have been killed from the result of the US occupation? I have to say I would find that very surprising.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
what does this have to do with anything?
I knew I was right..
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
but the nazi's wrote alot of the history and they lost.
my point is... we never studied the Nazi historians in my High School but we were forced to read the Diary of Anne Frank in Literature class
...just sayin now, don't go judging me anti-semetic or anything, don't send the JDL goons down on me
Then the minister and the congregation think you're either an idiot or a comedian.
I'd like to think that some of the Holocaust tales are a little scetchy (now don't blast me) because I find it unbelievably hard to conceptualize that an entire country could be so blinded by patriotism that such would ever occur.
Perhaps it's denial, I'm not a defender of the Nazi's....not ever...but I understand Roland's m.o. (to a degree) to not blindly accept all historical "facts".
Like he said it is interesting to view differing perspectives. It's not always black and white. It doesn't mean that you have to accept those views. We can all draw our own opinions.
Anyway the best lesson of WWII is that we should never blindly follow our government and it's oppressive whims.
Cheers. No hard feelings.
and the nazi ideology being seen as abberant amuses me.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Que?