im sure a lot of people look at what the nazis did and see it as something that could not happen elsewhere. and would never happen elswhere. i'm not necessarily talking about the actual actions involved in the shoah. we've seen genocide happen before and after. what im talking about is that the ideas behind those actions are not aberrant, no matter how heinous we find them. what happened in germany and europe didn't suddenly appear out of the blue. twasn't as if hitler and pals woke up one morning and decided that the aryan race was the pinnacle of evolution. they were standing on the shoulders of others. yes they took it to the extreme, but they did not come up with the idea of racial purity.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
im sure a lot of people look at what the nazis did and see it as something that could not happen elsewhere. and would never happen elswhere. i'm not necessarily talking about the actual actions involved in the shoah. we've seen genocide happen before and after. what im talking about is that the ideas behind those actions are not aberrant, no matter how heinous we find them. what happened in germany and europe didn't suddenly appear out of the blue. twasn't as if hitler and pals woke up one morning and decided that the aryan race was the pinnacle of evolution. they were standing on the shoulders of others. yes they took it to the extreme, but they did not come up with the idea of racial purity.
Then It depends on whether you believe that Nazi Germany and the holocaust can be reduced simply to the idea of racial purity.
I don't. I think there's a lot more to it than that.
Right. I am not into jailing people for saying stupid shit. I am for making fun of people saying stupid shit, though. And Zundel has said his share of stupid shit. So in addition to believing he shouldn't be jailed, I also believe that nobody should use him as a credible source for anything.
Right, so how about that chosen people bullshit? A little stretched I would think.
I was always of the opinion that approx 10 million were killed, not the customary figure of 6 million.
Anyway, how do you kill 6 - 10 million people through disease alone. I don't buy it.
Have you seen the documentary 'Shoah'? There's first hand testimony there from both sides - Nazi's and Jews - about what went on.
And also, we need to keep in mind what the Nazis did prior to the gas chambers being built - i.e, mass shootings. They shot 33,000 in the quarry at Babi Yar in Bellorussia alone. You think that after all the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of mass shootings, that the Nazis then decided to use 'disease' as a method of mass extermination? I don't buy it. If the gas chambers were a myth then what happened to all the women and chilren who when they arrived at the Death camps? Most were dead within 24 hours.
I believe the 11 million figure includes the Russians, ethnic Polish, Slavics, disabled and gay Germans, and Jehovah's Witnesses. Many of then where executed and slaughtered by the thousands.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I believe the 11 million figure includes the Russians, ethnic Polish, Slavics, disabled and gay Germans, and Jehovah's Witnesses. Many of then where executed and slaughtered by the thousands.
Right, so how about that chosen people bullshit? A little stretched I would think.
I don't understand. I don't think people should be jailed or killed for believing they're the chosen people either. I think all religions at some level are goofy. But they didn't deserve to be rounded up and exterminated. So I'm not sure what your point is.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Then It depends on whether you believe that Nazi Germany and the holocaust can be reduced simply to the idea of racial purity.
I don't. I think there's a lot more to it than that.
then please by all means steve, share your thoughts.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
The problem with that is that there are mountains of documents supporting the current beliefs of what transpired during the holocaust. Eye witness testimonials, Nazi's documents, etc... I understand progressive thinking and not settling for what the status quo is, but when it comes to an event in history that is very well documented there is need. Have there been some events and statistics that may have been exaggerated, I'm sure their is. Where the remains of Jews used to make lampshades, soap, wallets, etc... maybe maybe not. Where 1.1 million Jews killed at Auschwitz by gassing or was it only 600,000 and the rest died of disease and starvation? All this study of nuance doesn't change the fact that the Nazi's where responsible for the murder of millions of innocent civilians simply based on their religion and/or ethnicity. It doesn't matter if they where starved, shot, or gassed. It was done deliberetly and mercilessly and that is all that really matters. People like Cole and Irving aren't out there to try to discover some hidden truth. They are out their to discredit a historical event by any means necessary. They will nit-pick at things such as the bar of soap at the museum and use that as a basis to further their cause.
I think it does matter. I think the truth matters. You said you're sure some of the events and numbers were exaggerated. And you're ok with that as long as the message is conveyed? Well, I'm sorry but I don't agree with that at all.
I think we should strive for objective, factual information and not settle for half-truths. If we knowingly allow mistakes, half-truths and lies into our history, then how can we ever trust that history? Where and how do you draw the line?
Is it ok to say the bombings on Nagasaki and Hiroshima killed 500.000 people or even 2 million people? Or is it ok to say 'only' 800 people died on 9/11 as long as we stress it was a heinous act?
We agree that the heinous acts of the nazis were indeed deliberate and merciless. And I also agree that the difference between starvation as a method to kill or gassing people is not as important as the fact that they were killed deliberately and systematically.
I just think it's important that we know the truth, whatever it is. I think it's important that we don't compromise on history and truth because the issue is a sensitive one.
I think it does matter. I think the truth matters. You said you're sure some of the events and numbers were exaggerated. And you're ok with that as long as the message is conveyed? Well, I'm sorry but I don't agree with that at all.
I think we should strive for objective, factual information and not settle for half-truths. If we knowingly allow mistakes, half-truths and lies into our history, then how can we ever trust that history? Where and how do you draw the line?
Is it ok to say the bombings on Nagasaki and Hiroshima killed 500.000 people or even 2 million people? Or is it ok to say 'only' 800 people died on 9/11 as long as we stress it was a heinous act?
We agree that the heinous acts of the nazis were indeed deliberate and merciless. And I also agree that the difference between starvation as a method to kill or gassing people is not as important as the fact that they were killed deliberately and systematically.
I just think it's important that we know the truth, whatever it is. I think it's important that we don't compromise on history and truth because the issue is a sensitive one.
I agree knowing the truth is important but it is one of those subjects that throws up a wall as many have here. But the fact is the half truths and propaganda have taken a hold and no one will let go of those ideas they have now formulated.
I think it is important to know how all these people died, whether by disease, starvation or gassing and also i would like to know the true numbers of people who died.
I remember reading that the number of jews who died was closer 4 million than 6 million. What of all the other people who died in those camps why do they not get mentioned half as much.
Has anyone here looked at the red cross reports of the nazi camps?
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
I think it does matter. I think the truth matters. You said you're sure some of the events and numbers were exaggerated. And you're ok with that as long as the message is conveyed? Well, I'm sorry but I don't agree with that at all.
I think we should strive for objective, factual information and not settle for half-truths. If we knowingly allow mistakes, half-truths and lies into our history, then how can we ever trust that history? Where and how do you draw the line?
Is it ok to say the bombings on Nagasaki and Hiroshima killed 500.000 people or even 2 million people? Or is it ok to say 'only' 800 people died on 9/11 as long as we stress it was a heinous act?
We agree that the heinous acts of the nazis were indeed deliberate and merciless. And I also agree that the difference between starvation as a method to kill or gassing people is not as important as the fact that they were killed deliberately and systematically.
I just think it's important that we know the truth, whatever it is. I think it's important that we don't compromise on history and truth because the issue is a sensitive one.
The statistical difference is how many people died via gas chamber vs disease or starvation. Most historians agree that between 5.1 million to 5.9 million Jews where killed during the Holocaust. There is no debating that stat. To me it doesn't really matter in the manner which they where killed all that matters, and should matter, is that they where. Sitting here debating the manner in which they died is not trying to uncover some hidden truth, it's a means to try to revise history to support your agenda. I agree that we should never settle for the status quo but strive to for more. We should never blindly trust what is thrust in our face and accept that as truth but when it comes to the holocaust many of the details are supported by mountains of documentation. Armies of historians have spent a life time gathering information from all sources to pain an accurate picture. The exact number of Jews killed will never be known but the estimates they do have are certainly damn close. So it is really necessary to debate wether 5.1 or 5.9 millions Jews where killed? I think not.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I reserve the right to ask questions about history and NOT be vilified.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
we are talking about the systematic murder of millions of people... not soap
Actually I am talking about exaggerations, and I just pointed one out.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
The statistical difference is how many people died via gas chamber vs disease or starvation.
Come on dying from disease really is not the same as people being led to a gas chamber everyday.
One is wilful intent the other is not. So if indeed millions were not gassed then i think it is important.
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
Come on dying from disease really is not the same as people being led to a gas chamber everyday.
One is wilful intent the other is not. So if indeed millions were not gassed then i think it is important.
Are you kidding me. These people where purposely placed in deplorable living conditions with insuffecient food, clothing, and medicine. Forced to work past the point of exhaustion left in their barracks to die once diseases and infection set in and that is not willfull intent.
These people where singled out because of their ethnic/religious difference. Stripped of everything and thrown into camps to die by what ever means best suited the Nazi's be it hanging, firing squad, gas chamber, disease or starvation. The means by which these people met their end is not as important as the fact that they where intentionally killed.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Come on dying from disease really is not the same as people being led to a gas chamber everyday.
One is wilful intent the other is not. So if indeed millions were not gassed then i think it is important.
It would certainly matter in the legal sense in a hearing, as to who served what time by doing what, and by giving and upholding orders. In that sense, according to the laws of society it would matter.
In the Karmic sense, a life is a life.
I'm of the mind that it is far easier to do nothing and let people ay (dying) in barracks, than to physically hoist up, shove, yell at, and corral people all day specifically to their demise.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Are you kidding me. These people where purposely placed in deplorable living conditions with insuffecient food, clothing, and medicine. Forced to work past the point of exhaustion left in their barracks to die once diseases and infection set in and that is not willfull intent.
These people where singled out because of their ethnic/religious difference. Stripped of everything and thrown into camps to die by what ever means best suited the Nazi's be it hanging, firing squad, gas chamber, disease or starvation. The means by which these people met their end is not as important as the fact that they where intentionally killed.
Fair point, i was looking at it from the point of view of leading people to a gas chamber to intentionally kill them, as a posed to people dying from disease due to not having the right medicine.
Did you ever read the red cross reports?
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
Fair point, i was looking at it from the point of view of leading people to a gas chamber to intentionally kill them, as a posed to people dying from disease due to not having the right medicine.
Did you ever read the red cross reports?
Not in it's entirety.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I'm of the mind that it is far easier to do nothing and let people ay (dying) in barracks, than to physically hoist up, shove, yell at, and corral people all day specifically to their demise.
Or to beat them to death, hang them, gas them, force them into the Polish winter with insufficient clothing so that they freeze to death, or force them to work in the scorching heat of summer with no access to water so that they die of heat-stroke or exhaustion specifically to their demise, e.t.c, e.t.c.
Come on man, they were deliberately exterminated in their millions, whatever way you wanna look at it. Splitting hairs over the minutaie of the holocaust doesn't change the overall picture.
Or to beat them to death, hang them, gas them, force them into the Polish winter with insufficient clothing so that they freeze to death, or force them to work in the scorching heat of summer with no access to water so that they die of heat-stroke or exhaustion specifically to their demise, e.t.c, e.t.c.
Come on man, they were deliberately exterminated in their millions, whatever way you wanna look at it. Splitting hairs over the minutaie of the holocaust doesn't change the overall picture.
It does cast light on identifying what kind of people we are talking about when it comes to what happened.
I think it matters to understand it as thoroughly and truthfully as possible.
I think thats is all anyone can ask.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
The statistical difference is how many people died via gas chamber vs disease or starvation. Most historians agree that between 5.1 million to 5.9 million Jews where killed during the Holocaust. There is no debating that stat. To me it doesn't really matter in the manner which they where killed all that matters, and should matter, is that they where. Sitting here debating the manner in which they died is not trying to uncover some hidden truth, it's a means to try to revise history to support your agenda. I agree that we should never settle for the status quo but strive to for more. We should never blindly trust what is thrust in our face and accept that as truth but when it comes to the holocaust many of the details are supported by mountains of documentation. Armies of historians have spent a life time gathering information from all sources to pain an accurate picture. The exact number of Jews killed will never be known but the estimates they do have are certainly damn close. So it is really necessary to debate wether 5.1 or 5.9 millions Jews where killed? I think not.
My agenda? What are you talking about?
Anyway, I've heard 4 million were killed and I've heard 6 million were killed. That's a huge difference. But does the difference matter? Not really. But why would you not want to give the most accurate number?
You say the consensus is the number was between 5.1 and 5.9 million. I'd say that's very reasonable, we'll never know the exact number.
What I'm trying to say is, why wouldn't we want to present accurate information? If the nazis let more than half starve to death, why say they gassed most of them (this is just an example, not something I believe)?
Maybe you're satisfied with only knowing half of the story (that they were killed). But I'm also interested in how they were killed. I'm interested in history. I think it's relevant information, and that doesn't mean I have some agenda.
Or to beat them to death, hang them, gas them, force them into the Polish winter with insufficient clothing so that they freeze to death, or force them to work in the scorching heat of summer with no access to water so that they die of heat-stroke or exhaustion specifically to their demise, e.t.c, e.t.c.
Come on man, they were deliberately exterminated in their millions, whatever way you wanna look at it. Splitting hairs over the minutaie of the holocaust doesn't change the overall picture.
You're right, it doesn't change the overall picture. So why would anyone have a problem with it if someone wants to know if most of them were killed by Zyklon B or by starvation or gun shots?
Like you said, it doesn't change the overall picture. The stress is still on the fact that they systematically and deliberately killed millions.
I think it does matter. I think the truth matters. You said you're sure some of the events and numbers were exaggerated. And you're ok with that as long as the message is conveyed? Well, I'm sorry but I don't agree with that at all.
I think we should strive for objective, factual information and not settle for half-truths. If we knowingly allow mistakes, half-truths and lies into our history, then how can we ever trust that history? Where and how do you draw the line?
Is it ok to say the bombings on Nagasaki and Hiroshima killed 500.000 people or even 2 million people? Or is it ok to say 'only' 800 people died on 9/11 as long as we stress it was a heinous act?
We agree that the heinous acts of the nazis were indeed deliberate and merciless. And I also agree that the difference between starvation as a method to kill or gassing people is not as important as the fact that they were killed deliberately and systematically.
I just think it's important that we know the truth, whatever it is. I think it's important that we don't compromise on history and truth because the issue is a sensitive one.
...
I get what you're saying... but, let's suppose that 60 years from now... future revisionists look back at September 11, 2001 and say...
"Well, only 800 people died as a direct cause of the al Qaeda members. That is, 800 people died from the direct cause of the planes, crashing into the buildings.
Some people actually killed themselves by jumping out the windows... and fire fighters and police officers... who weren't there when the plance actually crashed into the buildings, rather, they arrived afterwards and died rushing into the building or were crushed when the buildings collapsed."
...
Even if that were true... al Qaeda and those hi-jackers need to be held responsible for all 2,900 of those lives they took. And the attacks of September 11, 2001 would remain as a terrible act that demonstrates the horrible nature Man can reveal himself to be... right?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
im sure a lot of people look at what the nazis did and see it as something that could not happen elsewhere. and would never happen elswhere. i'm not necessarily talking about the actual actions involved in the shoah. we've seen genocide happen before and after. what im talking about is that the ideas behind those actions are not aberrant, no matter how heinous we find them. what happened in germany and europe didn't suddenly appear out of the blue. twasn't as if hitler and pals woke up one morning and decided that the aryan race was the pinnacle of evolution. they were standing on the shoulders of others. yes they took it to the extreme, but they did not come up with the idea of racial purity.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Then It depends on whether you believe that Nazi Germany and the holocaust can be reduced simply to the idea of racial purity.
I don't. I think there's a lot more to it than that.
Right, so how about that chosen people bullshit? A little stretched I would think.
I believe the 11 million figure includes the Russians, ethnic Polish, Slavics, disabled and gay Germans, and Jehovah's Witnesses. Many of then where executed and slaughtered by the thousands.
it was exaggerated
:rolleyes:
I don't understand. I don't think people should be jailed or killed for believing they're the chosen people either. I think all religions at some level are goofy. But they didn't deserve to be rounded up and exterminated. So I'm not sure what your point is.
then please by all means steve, share your thoughts.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I think it does matter. I think the truth matters. You said you're sure some of the events and numbers were exaggerated. And you're ok with that as long as the message is conveyed? Well, I'm sorry but I don't agree with that at all.
I think we should strive for objective, factual information and not settle for half-truths. If we knowingly allow mistakes, half-truths and lies into our history, then how can we ever trust that history? Where and how do you draw the line?
Is it ok to say the bombings on Nagasaki and Hiroshima killed 500.000 people or even 2 million people? Or is it ok to say 'only' 800 people died on 9/11 as long as we stress it was a heinous act?
We agree that the heinous acts of the nazis were indeed deliberate and merciless. And I also agree that the difference between starvation as a method to kill or gassing people is not as important as the fact that they were killed deliberately and systematically.
I just think it's important that we know the truth, whatever it is. I think it's important that we don't compromise on history and truth because the issue is a sensitive one.
naděje umírá poslední
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Exactly
naděje umírá poslední
I agree knowing the truth is important but it is one of those subjects that throws up a wall as many have here. But the fact is the half truths and propaganda have taken a hold and no one will let go of those ideas they have now formulated.
I think it is important to know how all these people died, whether by disease, starvation or gassing and also i would like to know the true numbers of people who died.
I remember reading that the number of jews who died was closer 4 million than 6 million. What of all the other people who died in those camps why do they not get mentioned half as much.
Has anyone here looked at the red cross reports of the nazi camps?
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
The statistical difference is how many people died via gas chamber vs disease or starvation. Most historians agree that between 5.1 million to 5.9 million Jews where killed during the Holocaust. There is no debating that stat. To me it doesn't really matter in the manner which they where killed all that matters, and should matter, is that they where. Sitting here debating the manner in which they died is not trying to uncover some hidden truth, it's a means to try to revise history to support your agenda. I agree that we should never settle for the status quo but strive to for more. We should never blindly trust what is thrust in our face and accept that as truth but when it comes to the holocaust many of the details are supported by mountains of documentation. Armies of historians have spent a life time gathering information from all sources to pain an accurate picture. The exact number of Jews killed will never be known but the estimates they do have are certainly damn close. So it is really necessary to debate wether 5.1 or 5.9 millions Jews where killed? I think not.
making soap out of people by the NAZI's
psst...that is what is known as an exaggeration.
I reserve the right to ask questions about history and NOT be vilified.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
we are talking about the systematic murder of millions of people... not soap
exactly right
Actually I am talking about exaggerations, and I just pointed one out.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
you don't understand whole concepts.. its a lost cause with you
he doesn't understand these things. or what the main point of a post is
you continue to ispire me...
inspire me to have nothing to say post after post after post after post
Come on dying from disease really is not the same as people being led to a gas chamber everyday.
One is wilful intent the other is not. So if indeed millions were not gassed then i think it is important.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
letting someone die of disease is not willful intent? you might be worse then roland.
Are you kidding me. These people where purposely placed in deplorable living conditions with insuffecient food, clothing, and medicine. Forced to work past the point of exhaustion left in their barracks to die once diseases and infection set in and that is not willfull intent.
These people where singled out because of their ethnic/religious difference. Stripped of everything and thrown into camps to die by what ever means best suited the Nazi's be it hanging, firing squad, gas chamber, disease or starvation. The means by which these people met their end is not as important as the fact that they where intentionally killed.
It would certainly matter in the legal sense in a hearing, as to who served what time by doing what, and by giving and upholding orders. In that sense, according to the laws of society it would matter.
In the Karmic sense, a life is a life.
I'm of the mind that it is far easier to do nothing and let people ay (dying) in barracks, than to physically hoist up, shove, yell at, and corral people all day specifically to their demise.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Fair point, i was looking at it from the point of view of leading people to a gas chamber to intentionally kill them, as a posed to people dying from disease due to not having the right medicine.
Did you ever read the red cross reports?
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
Not in it's entirety.
Or to beat them to death, hang them, gas them, force them into the Polish winter with insufficient clothing so that they freeze to death, or force them to work in the scorching heat of summer with no access to water so that they die of heat-stroke or exhaustion specifically to their demise, e.t.c, e.t.c.
Come on man, they were deliberately exterminated in their millions, whatever way you wanna look at it. Splitting hairs over the minutaie of the holocaust doesn't change the overall picture.
It does cast light on identifying what kind of people we are talking about when it comes to what happened.
I think it matters to understand it as thoroughly and truthfully as possible.
I think thats is all anyone can ask.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
My agenda? What are you talking about?
Anyway, I've heard 4 million were killed and I've heard 6 million were killed. That's a huge difference. But does the difference matter? Not really. But why would you not want to give the most accurate number?
You say the consensus is the number was between 5.1 and 5.9 million. I'd say that's very reasonable, we'll never know the exact number.
What I'm trying to say is, why wouldn't we want to present accurate information? If the nazis let more than half starve to death, why say they gassed most of them (this is just an example, not something I believe)?
Maybe you're satisfied with only knowing half of the story (that they were killed). But I'm also interested in how they were killed. I'm interested in history. I think it's relevant information, and that doesn't mean I have some agenda.
naděje umírá poslední
You're right, it doesn't change the overall picture. So why would anyone have a problem with it if someone wants to know if most of them were killed by Zyklon B or by starvation or gun shots?
Like you said, it doesn't change the overall picture. The stress is still on the fact that they systematically and deliberately killed millions.
naděje umírá poslední
I get what you're saying... but, let's suppose that 60 years from now... future revisionists look back at September 11, 2001 and say...
"Well, only 800 people died as a direct cause of the al Qaeda members. That is, 800 people died from the direct cause of the planes, crashing into the buildings.
Some people actually killed themselves by jumping out the windows... and fire fighters and police officers... who weren't there when the plance actually crashed into the buildings, rather, they arrived afterwards and died rushing into the building or were crushed when the buildings collapsed."
...
Even if that were true... al Qaeda and those hi-jackers need to be held responsible for all 2,900 of those lives they took. And the attacks of September 11, 2001 would remain as a terrible act that demonstrates the horrible nature Man can reveal himself to be... right?
Hail, Hail!!!