Breach in the wall made by Palestinians at Gaza

farfromglorified

theroachman wrote:

So you’re saying that the person getting his ass kick by a bully and having his property stolen by said bully needs to apologize to the bully for existing before the bully has any obligation to clean up his act?

These analogies are absolutely foolish. You have two bullies here who keep pointing their fingers at each other while begging for more violence.

jlew24asu

farfromglorified wrote:

I expect them to denounce violence. I expect them to stem the civil conflict that is causing their society to collapse even further. I expect them to find a leader not defined by contradiction and hate. I expect them to envision a better life and seek it, rather than wallow in victimization. Desperation is not an excuse for not doing these things. Deperation is a cop-out being used to justify the very things they're denouncing.

I wish others would expect the same.

theroachman

farfromglorified wrote:

It implies that two groups are engaged in an armed conflict, which is exactly what is going on. Palestinians throw rocks, launch rockets and dispatch suicide bombers. They plant explosive devices. They are engaged in war. A war needn't be fair to be a war.



If you knew me, you'd know I have no interest in paying taxes, particularly those that go to Israel. Regardless, however, I'm not saying that you're justifying suicide bombing. I'm simply saying that if you want to justify that, or justify the actions of the Israelis, don't be surprised if they keep happening.



Not at all. I'm asking for the Palestinians to make a step towards peace. I don't care if it's the first or the last. This isn't synchronized swimming.



I expect them to denounce violence. I expect them to stem the civil conflict that is causing their society to collapse even further. I expect them to find a leader not defined by contradiction and hate. I expect them to envision a better life and seek it, rather than wallow in victimization. Desperation is not an excuse for not doing these things. Deperation is a cop-out being used to justify the very things they're denouncing.



Absolutely!



Absolutely, again!



I don't care about "the rest of the world". US zealotry and European idiocy have done more harm than good. This is not our business and we need to treat it as such. This is a challenge that needs to be met by the citizens of both Israel and Palestine and no one esle can do it for them.

Israel is our Business. The US is the reason there is an Israel. How is it not? And not caring or listing the others in the world is exactly why the world in it current messed up situation it is in today.

India was a larger force then the occupying British. Liberia gained its so called independence with the help of the US taxpayers. Though I would not call living under Charles Taylor as independence from anything. I think a better country for your analogy would have been the Philippines gaining its independence from the USA.

theroachman

farfromglorified wrote:

These analogies are absolutely foolish. You have two bullies here who keep pointing their fingers at each other while begging for more violence.

So the guy with the nukes, the F16s, the tanks and all the rest of the military hardware the US gives them for free is also a victim then?

farfromglorified

theroachman wrote:

So the guy with the nukes, the F16s, the tanks and all the rest of the military hardware the US gives them for free is also a victim then?

Absolutely. Israel is not "a guy". Israel is a country, filled with people. Its leaders may have nukes, F16s and tanks, but there are plenty of Israeli people sitting on buses and in their homes who have been senselessly killed, just as there have been children sitting on streetcorners and in homes in Palestine that have been senselessly killed. You can either try to make sense of the senseless with false analogies and twisted logic, or you can actually open up your eyes and realize that everything you've damned from one side is being employed by the other.

farfromglorified

theroachman wrote:

Israel is our Business.

No it isn't. Israel is Israel's business.

The US is the reason there is an Israel. How is it not?

Because it was formed by the UN, largely because American and European nations felt a mixture of guilt over the holocaust but had no interest in accepting millions of Jews into their society.

And not caring or listing the others in the world is exactly why the world in it current messed up situation it is in today.

Caring and listening are great things! Meddling and encouraging, however, are another.

India was a larger force then the occupying British. Liberia gained its so called independence with the help of the US taxpayers. Though I would not call living under Charles Taylor as independence from anything. I think a better country for your analogy would have been the Philippines gaining its independence from the USA.

In each case you had a weaker, poorer nation gaining independence by understanding the meaning of independence. The creedo of victimization is its anti-thesis, as it makes your existence completely dependent on the crimes you suffer.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

Have you ever heard of India? How about Liberia? How did these nations ever achieve independence, by your logic?

Furthermore, how come our country and Mexico are not constantly at war?



:rolleyes:

You have an excellent title for your op-ed there.

It seems one side conceded, as states of inhumane oppression are no longer occurring in each example.

Have you looked at maps of Isreal's land progression over the years? Do you expect further concessions to take place by the Palestinians?

Like the Palestinians in Gaza routinely say, "they are trying to drive us into the sea". Just looking at he semantics from a map (overhead) perspective alone, this would appear very apparent.

Palestinians have no running water while across the street Israelis frolic in swimming pools and live in air conditioned luxurious homes.

Does that seem likely or at all realistic to you?

Conceding lower than dirt, is to be underneath it, as in dead.

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

It seems one side conceded, as states of inhumane oppression are no longer occurring in each example.

Furthermore, both sides were not defined by "equality of opportunity in their environment", as you claimed they would have to be.

Have you looked at maps of Isreal's land progression over the years?

Absolutely.

Do you expect further concessions to take place by the Palestinians?

Futher concessions? They haven't conceded them. They've lost them, and they're demanding them back. They should get them back. And I certainly don't expect the Palestinians to concede anything to the Israelis other than the fact that each Israeli has the same right to exist as each Palestinian.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

Furthermore, both sides were not defined by "equality of opportunity in their environment", as you claimed they would have to be.



Absolutely.



Futher concessions? They haven't conceded them. They've lost them, and they're demanding them back. They should get them back. And I certainly don't expect the Palestinians to concede anything to the Israelis other than the fact that each Israeli has the same right to exist as each Palestinian.

The Israeli's have peppered the entire area with settlements. This was not only a huge mistake but intentional and very telling.

If it was isolation or to be left alone they (Israelis) were seeking, they have failed miserably and purposefully by their own hand.

I doubt the true intentions of what the Israeli govt has to say, and they've etched it out in concrete and soil as living proof to that effect, and continue to do so.

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

The Israeli's have peppered the entire area with settlements. This was not only a huge mistake but intentional and very telling.

Why do you keep telling me things about the Israelis as if I support them? I don't. Every one of those settlements should be removed. But nothing about a settlement makes me feel an ounce of sympathy for the Palestinian people.

If it was isolation or to be left alone they (Israelis) were seeking, they have failed miserably and purposefully by their own hand.

Absolutely! And if it was independence and peace the Palestinians were seeking, they have failed miserably and purposfully by their own hand.

I doubt the true intentions of what the Israeli govt has to say, and they've etched it out in concrete and soil as living proof to that effect, and continue to do so.

You can doubt whatever you'd like. Doubt is not your problem. Your belief in the snakeoil salesmen and guilt peddlers on the other side of the border is your problem.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

Why do you keep telling me things about the Israelis as if I support them? I don't. Every one of those settlements should be removed. But nothing about a settlement makes me feel an ounce of sympathy for the Palestinian people.



Absolutely! And if it was independence and peace the Palestinians were seeking, they have failed miserably and purposfully by their own hand.



You can doubt whatever you'd like. Doubt is not your problem. Your belief in the snakeoil salesmen and guilt peddlers on the other side of the border is your problem.

It's a David v.s. Goliath scenario. I still don't see how you keep inserting equality in perception of the circumstances of the struggle. It's just not there. It's a perfect case scenario and sounds good on paper, but it's just not realistic in this scenario.

Actions will always speak louder than words from what I can see. And if Israel's cohesive land project lends any indication to the judgment of their actions then, it's all right there.

Big guy v.s. the little guy held up against the wall by the throat.

there's no snakeoil. Just evidence etched out in 3 dimensions across a land mass.

bootlegger10

I'm going to compare Palestinians to dogs. If you give a dog some people food, they are just going to want more and more and more.

Everytime Israel makes concessions, Palestine wants more and more and more. And the rocket attacks never stop.

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

It's a David v.s. Goliath scenario.

Hehe...quite literally, except in that story the Jew was weaker and, quite ironically, he killed the Philistine with a stone.

I still don't see how you keep inserting equality in perception of the circumstances of the struggle. It's just not there. It's a perfect case scenario and sounds good on paper, but it's just not realistic in this scenario.

I'm not inserting equality of means or equality of environment. I'm inserting a moral equality. Murder is murder. And you can't make a contradiction a reality.

Actions will always speak louder than words from what I can see.

Hehe...apparently only in the context of the Israelis.

And if Israel's cohesive land project lends any indication to the judgment of their actions then, it's all right there.

Absolutely! Again, why do you keep telling me things about the Israelis as if I support them? I don't.

Big guy v.s. the little guy held up against the wall by the throat.

Keep embracing the lamest liberal argument that exists -- that the little guy is never wrong.

there's no snakeoil. Just evidence etched out in 3 dimensions across a land mass.

You're "evidence" is conveniently selected and marked more by deliberate ignorance than it is by objective reasoning.

Cosmo

In my opinion... BOTH sides are assholes. Both sides are to blame and both sides are responsible for the bullshit that goes on over there. As long as assholes are dealing with assholes... the same ol' shit is going to happen.
My solution... "Hey... assholes!!! Quit being ASSHOLES!!!"
...
Problem solved.

farfromglorified

bootlegger10 wrote:

I'm going to compare Palestinians to dogs.

I'm going to compare dogs to cats....doesn't work that well.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

Hehe...quite literally, except in that story the Jew was weaker and, quite ironically, he killed the Philistine with a stone.



I'm not inserting equality of means or equality of environment. I'm inserting a moral equality. Murder is murder. And you can't make a contradiction a reality.



Hehe...apparently only in the context of the Israelis.



Absolutely! Again, why do you keep telling me things about the Israelis as if I support them? I don't.



Keep embracing the lamest liberal argument that exists -- that the little guy is never wrong.



You're "evidence" is conveniently selected and marked more by deliberate ignorance than it is by objective reasoning.

My argument can be interpreted as is deliberate or one sided only if the circumstances are perceived as perfectly equal on both sides. They are definitely not equal in this situation.

That is as simple as I can state it, and of which it is readily observed by the most casual glance into the issue.

Lopsided equations get ubalanced results using the same variables (murder being the variable) regardless of what people would like to think and justify.

You describe a perfect case scenario using balanced criteria with equality existing on both sides. Although valid in theory, it is not a perfect case scenario that exists.

Quite the opposite in fact. Therefore the logic fails. If the sides are not equal, then one side is more antagonistic by default, there is no way around the fact.

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

My argument can be interpreted as is deliberate or one sided only if the circumstances are perceived as perfectly equal on both sides. They are definitely not equal in this situation.

Your argument pretends that Palestinians have a claim to this land, but that Israelis don't. Yet both claim the land based on the same logic.

Your argument pretends that Paletinian violence is "defensive" while Israeli violence is "aggressive", despite the fact that both have a vast history of aggression.

Your argument pretends that morality is relative to one's living conditions.

Your argument pretends that an Israeli settlement on Palestinian land is an aggression, but that a Palestinian suicide bombing on Israeli land is an act of defense.

Your argument pretends that Israeli actions that differ from their words is hypocrisy, but make no mention of similar actions by the Palestinians.

Your argument pretends that Israel wishes to "ethnically cleanse" Palestine, but make no mention of Palestinian actions that beg the same interpretation.

Your argument pretends that Israelis are completely in control of their violence, but that Palestinian violence is simply an inevitable reaction to Israeli agression.

Each of these contradictions you believe to be explained by "inequalities of circumstance". This must mean that you have a formula that computes the moral measure of an action relative to a conditional. Can you please provide that formula?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

Your argument pretends that Palestinians have a claim to this land, but that Israelis don't. Yet both claim the land based on the same logic.

Your argument pretends that Paletinian violence is "defensive" while Israeli violence is "aggressive", despite the fact that both have a vast history of aggression.

Your argument pretends that morality is relative to one's living conditions.

Your argument pretends that an Israeli settlement on Palestinian land is an aggression, but that a Palestinian suicide bombing on Israeli land is an act of defense.

Your argument pretends that Israeli actions that differ from their words is hypocrisy, but make no mention of similar actions by the Palestinians.

Your argument pretends that Israel wishes to "ethnically cleanse" Palestine, but make no mention of Palestinian actions that beg the same interpretation.

Your argument pretends that Israelis are completely in control of their violence, but that Palestinian violence is simply an inevitable reaction to Israeli agression.

Each of these contradictions you believe to be explained by "inequalities of circumstance". This must mean that you have a formula that computes the moral measure of an action relative to a conditional. Can you please provide that formula?

I'm just talking about what's happening right now by observing what's actually taking place, and weighing out what each side's daily life experience is like, and formulating how this causes people to act respond the way they do.

It's really more about human psychology than anything.

Until I see some Palestinian run checkpoints interrogating Israeli's and some Israeli homes and crops getting bulldozed by Palestinians I might see it closer towards the middle or where the problem is originating from.

Until then...no way it's just not even there to argue about. It doesn't exist as a balanced argument.

The logistics of it simply fall flat.

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I'm just talking about what's happening right now by observing what's actually taking place, and weighing out what each side's daily life experience is like, and formulating how this causes people to act respond the way they do.

No you're not. Your fixating on the things that support your bias and ignoring everything else, just like the Israeli apologists do.

It's really more about human psychology than anything.

Hehe...yes it is, but probably not in the way you mean.

Until I see some Palestinian run checkpoints interrogating Israeli's and some Israeli homes and crops getting bulldozed by Palestinians I might see it closer towards the middle or where the problem is originating from.

Until then...no way it's just not even there to argue about. It doesn't exist as a balanced argument.

The logistics of it simply fall flat.

Sigh...well, I guess we're not going to get anywhere then. Keep cheering on your chosen killers, and keep pretending that senseless violence is going to bring about peace. There just might be an opening in the Bush administration for you before it's over.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

No you're not. Your fixating on the things that support your bias and ignoring everything else, just like the Israeli apologists do.



Hehe...yes it is, but probably not in the way you mean.



Sigh...well, I guess we're not going to get anywhere then. Keep cheering on your chosen killers, and keep pretending that senseless violence is going to bring about peace. There just might be an opening in the Bush administration for you before it's over.

Well if the fight was fair I'd see it in the middle. I'm not seeing that.

Killing is wrong regardless, but one side is making the other side a little more desperate in the head, and to deny that is to not see the situation clearly.