Regardless...Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes, then hands out guns to racists nuts that they place in those new homes of which they build on stolen land.
"Regardless...[Palestinians fire rockets into Israeli homes], then hand out guns to racists nuts that they place in those new homes of which they build on stolen land."
Now, where does that leave us?
It's a bit of a lopsided equation, on where the anger is coming from imo.
Of course it's lopsided. That doesn't change the fundamentals of the equation, however. Anger is not the solution to these problems. Anger will only make them worse.
"Regardless...[Palestinians fire rockets into Israeli homes], then hand out guns to racists nuts that they place in those new homes of which they build on stolen land."
Now, where does that leave us?
Of course it's lopsided. That doesn't change the fundamentals of the equation, however. Anger is not the solution to these problems. Anger will only make them worse.
One side claims it is more civilized, knows better on what is to be, and pretends to be the model on how to behave in a modern society, but clearly they are not.
This is why I place unequal amounts of blame on the situation.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
One side claims it is more civilized, knows better on what is to be, and pretends to be the model on how to behave in a modern society, but clearly they are not.
This is why I place unequal amounts of blame on the situation.
how contradictory.
more blame? you place ALL the blame. at least the other side doesnt claim to be a model on how to behave in a modern society. clearly they do not.
One side claims it is more civilized, knows better on what is to be, and pretends to be the model on how to behave in a modern society, but clearly they are not.
Both sides claim all sorts of foolishness. Open your ears.
This is why I place unequal amounts of blame on the situation.
Ok. What blame do you put on the Palestinian side?
Both sides claim all sorts of foolishness. Open your ears.
Well Israel holds a lot of cards to behave the way they do imo. It's like rich people treating poor people like garbage.
Ok. What blame do you put on the Palestinian side?
The Palestinians could be more civilized about it, but they aren't even listened to when they try to be (they are not even viewed as human beings), so I can't say I blame their level of frustration, resentment, and anger, aside from knowing they should know violence only defeats their cause. It's pretty telling when someone is willing to end their own life in an act of violence. This is not a choice, but a consequence they are forced into. Driven to desperation and madness would best describe it all I think.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
So the Israeli claim, if hypocritical, does have some merit?
but they aren't even listened to when they try to be (they are not even viewed as human beings)
Huh? They've been listened to many times. They've also been treated as sub-human many times. To make an absolute out of either is silly.
so I can't say I blame their level of frustration, resentment, and anger, aside from knowing they should know violence only defeats their cause. It's pretty telling when someone is willing to end their own life in an act of violence.
It is telling. Telling of stupidity above all else.
This is not a choice, but a consequence they are forced into. Driven to desperation and madness would best describe it all I think.
See, this is really where the idiocy comes to a head. If they're "forced into" their current situation, how do you explain the countless societies (including the Jews themselves) that have come back from similar and even worse situations??? Furthermore, if they're "forced into" their current situation, aren't the Israelis forced into theirs??? Show me the elements of force. Show me, for each of the numerous failures of the Palestinians, the specific Israeli action that left no alternative for the Palestinians.
So the Israeli claim, if hypocritical, does have some merit?
Huh? They've been listened to many times. They've also been treated as sub-human many times. To make an absolute out of either is silly.
It is telling. Telling of stupidity above all else.
See, this is really where the idiocy comes to a head. If they're "forced into" their current situation, how do you explain the countless societies (including the Jews themselves) that have come back from similar and even worse situations??? Furthermore, if they're "forced into" their current situation, aren't the Israelis forced into theirs??? Show me the elements of force. Show me, for each of the numerous failures of the Palestinians, the specific Israeli action that left no alternative for the Palestinians.
Go kill your neighbors kids, then steal his house and force him to live in poverty in the back yard while you bang his wife in the bedroom window every night for him to see, and let me know why you think he's over reacting when he seems a little pissed at you. Let me know how that all turns out.
The Jews are still living in the oppression of the holocaust? I thought Hitler was defeated, and that analogous hardship has ended. I'm not getting that line of thought at all.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Go kill your neighbors kids, then steal his house and force him to live in poverty in the back yard while you bang his wife in the bedroom window every night for him to see, and let me know why you think he's over reacting when he seems a little pissed at you. Let me know how that all turns out.
:rolleyes:
You realize you just justified Israeli violence too, right?
The Jews are still living in the oppression of the holocaust? I thought Hitler was defeated, and that analogous hardship has ended. I'm not getting that line of thought at all.
I'm saying they, and countless other groups, have dealt with worse forms of oppression and come out on the other side. The holocaust ended at about the same time as Israel was born. Do you see Israel dropping bombs on Germany 60 years later, or vice versa? No. Why? Because the Jewish and German people moved past the hate, anger, and conflict. The same thing has to happen here. Both sides need to stop pretending that all their woes are the fault of the other side and start taking responsibility for their own actions. I'm honestly so sick of people apologizing for one side or the other and pretending that they're victims as they aggress against their so-called "oppressors". It's childish and ridiculous. Unfortunately, lots of people on the inside and outside buy into the bullshit, so it continues.
You realize you just justified Israeli violence too, right?
I'm saying they, and countless other groups, have dealt with worse forms of oppression and come out on the other side. The holocaust ended at about the same time as Israel was born. Do you see Israel dropping bombs on Germany 60 years later, or vice versa? No. Why? Because the Jewish and German people moved past the hate, anger, and conflict. The same thing has to happen here. Both sides need to stop pretending that all their woes are the fault of the other side and start taking responsibility for their own actions. I'm honestly so sick of people apologizing for one side or the other and pretending that they're victims as they aggress against their so-called "oppressors". It's childish and ridiculous. Unfortunately, lots of people on the inside and outside buy into the bullshit, so it continues.
I didn't Justify Israeli violence. I did no such thing other than to describe exactly what they are doing.
Israel isn't dropping bombs on Germany, but they are on the Palestinians. You would think they would have learned something.
They have the Palestinians in a strangle hold, to the point of hopelessness and desperation. They Palestinians are oppressed beyond belief....it's literally beyond human. It's one gigantic prison camp that used to be their homeland. They are stripped of their dignity on a daily basis, often several times a day. So, I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to point out.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I didn't Justify Israeli violence. I did no such thing other than to describe exactly what they are doing.
You're excusing Palestinian violence because of Israeli violence without realizing, in that same sentiment, that you're excusing Israeli violence. In other words, you're pretending that Palestinian violence is an inevitable effect of Israeli violence while claiming that Israeli violence is not an also an effect of Palestinian violence. It's a foolish double-standard.
Israel isn't dropping bombs on Germany, but they are on the Palestinians. You would think they would have learned something.
I would think that. Same goes for the Palestinians, yes?
They have the Palestinians in a strangle hold, to the point of hopelessness and desperation. They Palestinians are oppressed beyond belief....it's literally beyond human. It's one gigantic prison camp that used to be their homeland. They are stripped of their dignity on a daily basis, often several times a day. So, I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to point out.
I'm pointing out that Palestine, while currently a human sinkhole, still has and has had the potential to be a unified nation that can act like one. And you, and others, are excusing every one of their failures based on silly, contradictory principles.
You're excusing Palestinian violence because of Israeli violence without realizing, in that same sentiment, that you're excusing Israeli violence. In other words, you're pretending that Palestinian violence is an inevitable effect of Israeli violence while claiming that Israeli violence is not an also an effect of Palestinian violence. It's a foolish double-standard.
I would think that. Same goes for the Palestinians, yes?
I'm pointing out that Palestine, while currently a human sinkhole, still has and has had the potential to be a unified nation that can act like one. And you, and others, are excusing every one of their failures based on silly, contradictory principles.
It's not a double standard because it's not a balanced equation. It's like cornering an animal on and wondering why it attacked.
That is simple as an analogy as it gets.
Israel could actually help (I mean really help instead of pretending to), but they don't. The Palestinians have jack shit, and are expected to bend over until they are absorbed.
It's called ethnic cleansing.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
It's not a double standard because it's not a balanced equation. It's like cornering an animal on and wondering why it attacked.
That is simple as an analogy as it gets.
Both animals perceive themselves as cornered. See, this is what you're doing. You're making up justifications in your head for why one group of people are just mindless reactors (the Palestinians) and why the other are wicked overlords (the Israelis), and pretending that reality matches your analogy. It doesn't. Both sides are attacking each other for precisely the same reason: they believe the crimes of the other side justifies their own. So stop encouraging or sanctioning their stupidity.
Israel could actually help (I mean really help instead of pretending to), but they don't.
So could the Palestinians!
The Palestinians have jack shit
Jack shit??? They have 4 million minds and bodies. They get billions of dollars in foreign aid. They have access to and the support of nations with trillions of dollars in oil revenue. This isn't sub-saharan Africa.
and are expected to bend over until they are absorbed.
And many of them demand the exact same thing of Israel.
It's called ethnic cleansing.
:rolleyes:
Israel has the capability to ethnically cleanse Palestine in a day. You're talking about only 10,000 square miles here. Israel itself has over 1,000,000 Arabs living in their own borders who are part of Israeli society and not directly persecuted by the Israeli government. To toss the claim of "ethnic cleansing" is absolutely ridiculous. This is and always has been a war over territory.
Both animals perceive themselves as cornered. See, this is what you're doing. You're making up justifications in your head for why one group of people are just mindless reactors (the Palestinians) and why the other are wicked overlords (the Israelis), and pretending that reality matches your analogy. It doesn't. Both sides are attacking each other for precisely the same reason: they believe the crimes of the other side justifies their own. So stop encouraging or sanctioning their stupidity.
So could the Palestinians!
Jack shit??? They have 4 million minds and bodies. They get billions of dollars in foreign aid. They have access to and the support of nations with trillions of dollars in oil revenue. This isn't sub-saharan Africa.
And many of them demand the exact same thing of Israel.
:rolleyes:
Israel has the capability to ethnically cleanse Palestine in a day. You're talking about only 10,000 square miles here. Israel itself has over 1,000,000 Arabs living in their own borders who are part of Israeli society and not directly persecuted by the Israeli government. To toss the claim of "ethnic cleansing" is absolutely ridiculous. This is and always has been a war over territory.
So you see the Palestinians as equal to Israeli's in finances and living conditions
You're the first person I've ever heard that from.
That's just not the case at all.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
So you see the Palestinians as equal to Israeli's in finances and living conditions
Absolutely not. I simply don't see the Palestinians as a people with so little that there is no hope for development or peace. You're claiming that Palestine has "jack shit", when foreign aid alone would give to each Palestinian 100 times the amount of annual income as someone living in improverished areas in Africa.
Absolutely not. I simply don't see the Palestinians as a people with so little that there is no hope for development or peace. You're claiming that Palestine has "jack shit", when foreign aid alone would give to each Palestinian 100 times the amount of annual income as someone living in improverished areas in Africa.
I wonder how yassar arafat died with a net worth of 500 million dollars?
Absolutely not. I simply don't see the Palestinians as a people with so little that there is no hope for development or peace. You're claiming that Palestine has "jack shit", when foreign aid alone would give to each Palestinian 100 times the amount of annual income as someone living in improverished areas in Africa.
So you see the Palestinians having the same living conditions and financial situation as the Israelis was the question.
Because I'm saying the circumstances are not balanced, and that much is strikingly apparent, but somehow you seem to think everything is equal.
You see what you're saying now don't you?
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
So you see the Palestinians having the same living conditions and financial situation as the Israelis was the question.
And "absolutely not" was my answer.
Because I'm saying the circumstances are not balanced, and that much is strikingly apparent, but somehow you seem to think everything is equal.
I don't think "everything is equal". I simply don't think that when a poorer man is hit by a richer man that the poorer man is somehow automatically justified to do whatever he wants to do.
What is equal here are the moral consequences of murder and violence. Israeli violence is not morally excusable because they are Westernized. Palestinian violence is not morally excusable because they are poor or oppressed. Neither side can claim to be solely oppressed by the other and neither side can claim their woes are solely the fault of the other. So you can either recongize this and drop the hate and anger and work towards a solution, or you can continue to cheer on one side as it lobs ordinance at the other. Which is it going to be?
A cage is a cage no matter how much gold the bars are made from.
Here is an interesting perspective from someone who has been to Palestine. The article is a few years old but after reading it I feel it is still relevant today.
I don't think "everything is equal". I simply don't think that when a poorer man is hit by a richer man that the poorer man is somehow automatically justified to do whatever he wants to do.
What is equal here are the moral consequences of murder and violence. Israeli violence is not morally excusable because they are Westernized. Palestinian violence is not morally excusable because they are poor or oppressed. Neither side can claim to be solely oppressed by the other and neither side can claim their woes are solely the fault of the other. So you can either recongize this and drop the hate and anger and work towards a solution, or you can continue to cheer on one side as it lobs ordinance at the other. Which is it going to be?
That's true, however the place is run like a jail and the Palestinians are the prisoners.
It's essentially a hardcore police state run by the haves against the have nots. You would think they would expect some reprisal for such a hard headed cynical approach.
They even have checkpoints on roads in Palestinian territory that do not even cross into Israeli settlements. What does that tell you? I know what message it sends to the Palestinians who have to endure it constantly. This builds up and accumulates in even the most peaceful of minds.
It's a little bit beyond just Israeli defense, and I think pretty much everyone knows it.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
That's true, however the place is run like a jail and the Palestinians are the prisoners.
No, it's not. The place is run like a warzone because that's exactly what it is.
It's essentially a hardcore police state run by the haves against the have nots. You would think they would expect some reprisal for such a hard headed cynical approach.
I would think that, yes. And you would think the Palestinians would expect what they get for their infighting, terrorism and complete inability to form the basics of a functioning state.
They even have checkpoints on roads in Palestinian territory that do not even cross into Israeli settlements. What does that tell you? I know what message it sends to the Palestinians who have to endure it constantly. This builds up and accumulates in even the most peaceful of minds.
It's a little bit beyond just Israeli defense, and I think pretty much everyone knows it.
Of course it's a bit beyond defense! It's way beyond defense. Now, if people like you try applying that logic to the other side, maybe we'll get somewhere.
This might sound harsh, but I challenge you to dispute it. And that is land is only somebody's to their extent to protect it. If somebody else comes along and takes it, there is no higher power that will give it back. History has shown us this since the begining of time, and it continues today all around the world.
Not to cut your talk short, but.........why was Israel created if this above is not one of the big parts of the answer?????!!!
Chosen people, sacred land, hard done by, yadda, yadda, yadda.
Of course it's a bit beyond defense! It's way beyond defense. Now, if people like you try applying that logic to the other side, maybe we'll get somewhere.[/quote]
You really need to read up and visit with people who actually have lived under the Israeli occupation or are doing so now.
It is a police state thus it is a prison.
edit to add
sorry the response was to farfromglorified seemed have messed up my quoting
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
You really need to read up and visit with people who actually have lived under the Israeli occupation or are doing so now.
*sigh*
I'm not justifying Israeli actions nor am I claiming that Israel does not occupy Palestine nor am I saying that Israel is not partly responsible for the conditions of Palestine. I'm not saying that life for average, peaceful Palestinians is not awful. It is awful. It is a terrible existence.
Coddling the Palestinian people and treating them like complete victims, however, is idiotic. We already did this with the Israelis 60 years ago, and look where it got us.
If you want to justify Palestinian suicide bombings and rocket attacks, knock yourself out. If you want to justify Israeli incursions or bombings, ditto. Just don't be surprised when you get more of them.
No, it's not. The place is run like a warzone because that's exactly what it is.
I would think that, yes. And you would think the Palestinians would expect what they get for their infighting, terrorism and complete inability to form the basics of a functioning state.
Of course it's a bit beyond defense! It's way beyond defense. Now, if people like you try applying that logic to the other side, maybe we'll get somewhere.
It just won't work until both sides have equal opportunity of circumstance in their surroundings.
One side is master, the other the slave. Locked together in conflict.
Master likes the slave to be the slave. Slave is tired.
Israel will need to concede here, it's the only direction that will solve the puzzle.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I'm not justifying Israeli actions nor am I claiming that Israel does not occupy Palestine nor am I saying that Israel is not partly responsible for the conditions of Palestine. I'm not saying that life for average, peaceful Palestinians is not awful. It is awful. It is a terrible existence.
Coddling the Palestinian people and treating them like complete victims, however, is idiotic. We already did this with the Israelis 60 years ago, and look where it got us.
If you want to justify Palestinian suicide bombings and rocket attacks, knock yourself out. If you want to justify Israeli incursions or bombings, ditto. Just don't be surprised when you get more of them.
No, it is a warzone thus it is a hell hole.
A war zone implies that there is a real way the Palestinians can fight back.
Reading up and talking with people who have lived there is somehow a way I would justify a suicide bombing? A bit of projection on your part. And since you implied just that, does it makes it ok for me to say that you are happy the Israelis can bomb innocent people with US taxpayer paid F16s ?
Your asking for the Palestinians to make the first step towards peace? How do you expect the Palestinians to take the first step when they are living under a more and more desperate situation?
It is not like the Israelis have a good reputation as a fair and even handed democratic nation. US paid for cluster bombs are still killing people in Lebanon.
Trust must be earned and neither side in this conflict has done much to help. It will take the more powerful nation to make the first move and show people they can be trusted. Currently the Israeli government can be trusted as much as George Bush. That is just the way most of the world sees it.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
It just won't work until both sides have equal opportunity of circumstance in their surroundings.
One side is master, the other the slave. Locked together in conflict.
Master likes the slave to be the slave. Slave is tired.
Israel will need to concede here, it's the only direction that will solve the puzzle.
LOL, why in the world would Israel concede? They are the ones who are prospering, while the Palestinians are the ones who are suffering.
I will never take the Palestinians seriously until they have leadership that denounces violence and comes to the negotiating table willing to hammer out an agreement where two states coexist.
Wake me when that happens. Until then, the Palestinians are just digging themselves farther into the past.
Let me just add here, that we all know why that can't happen. If a leader where to emerge in Palestine that wanted to unite the people there and solidify a nation that coexisted with Israel - he would be assisinated by his own people. The Palestinians are their own worst enemy - not Israel.
LOL, why in the world would Israel concede? They are the ones who are prospering, while the Palestinians are the ones who are suffering.
I will never take the Palestinians seriously until they have leadership that denounces violence and comes to the negotiating table willing to hammer out an agreement where two states coexist.
Wake me when that happens. Until then, the Palestinians are just digging themselves farther into the past.
So you’re saying that the person getting his ass kick by a bully and having his property stolen by said bully needs to apologize to the bully for existing before the bully has any obligation to clean up his act?
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
A war zone implies that there is a real way the Palestinians can fight back.
It implies that two groups are engaged in an armed conflict, which is exactly what is going on. Palestinians throw rocks, launch rockets and dispatch suicide bombers. They plant explosive devices. They are engaged in war. A war needn't be fair to be a war.
Reading up and talking with people who have lived there is somehow a way I would justify a suicide bombing? A bit of projection on your part. And since you implied just that, does it makes it ok for me to say that you are happy the Israelis can bomb innocent people with US taxpayer paid F16s ?
If you knew me, you'd know I have no interest in paying taxes, particularly those that go to Israel. Regardless, however, I'm not saying that you're justifying suicide bombing. I'm simply saying that if you want to justify that, or justify the actions of the Israelis, don't be surprised if they keep happening.
Your asking for the Palestinians to make the first step towards peace?
Not at all. I'm asking for the Palestinians to make a step towards peace. I don't care if it's the first or the last. This isn't synchronized swimming.
How do you expect the Palestinians to take the first step when they are living under a more and more desperate situation?
I expect them to denounce violence. I expect them to stem the civil conflict that is causing their society to collapse even further. I expect them to find a leader not defined by contradiction and hate. I expect them to envision a better life and seek it, rather than wallow in victimization. Desperation is not an excuse for not doing these things. Deperation is a cop-out being used to justify the very things they're denouncing.
It is not like the Israelis have a good reputation as a fair and even handed democratic nation.
Absolutely!
US paid for cluster bombs are still killing people in Lebanon.
Absolutely, again!
Trust must be earned and neither side in this conflict has done much to help. It will take the more powerful nation to make the first move and show people they can be trusted. Currently the Israeli government can be trusted as much as George Bush. That is just the way most of the world sees it.
I don't care about "the rest of the world". US zealotry and European idiocy have done more harm than good. This is not our business and we need to treat it as such. This is a challenge that needs to be met by the citizens of both Israel and Palestine and no one esle can do it for them.
Comments
"Regardless...[Palestinians fire rockets into Israeli homes], then hand out guns to racists nuts that they place in those new homes of which they build on stolen land."
Now, where does that leave us?
Of course it's lopsided. That doesn't change the fundamentals of the equation, however. Anger is not the solution to these problems. Anger will only make them worse.
One side claims it is more civilized, knows better on what is to be, and pretends to be the model on how to behave in a modern society, but clearly they are not.
This is why I place unequal amounts of blame on the situation.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
how contradictory.
more blame? you place ALL the blame. at least the other side doesnt claim to be a model on how to behave in a modern society. clearly they do not.
Both sides claim all sorts of foolishness. Open your ears.
Ok. What blame do you put on the Palestinian side?
The Palestinians could be more civilized about it, but they aren't even listened to when they try to be (they are not even viewed as human beings), so I can't say I blame their level of frustration, resentment, and anger, aside from knowing they should know violence only defeats their cause. It's pretty telling when someone is willing to end their own life in an act of violence. This is not a choice, but a consequence they are forced into. Driven to desperation and madness would best describe it all I think.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
So the Israeli claim, if hypocritical, does have some merit?
Huh? They've been listened to many times. They've also been treated as sub-human many times. To make an absolute out of either is silly.
It is telling. Telling of stupidity above all else.
See, this is really where the idiocy comes to a head. If they're "forced into" their current situation, how do you explain the countless societies (including the Jews themselves) that have come back from similar and even worse situations??? Furthermore, if they're "forced into" their current situation, aren't the Israelis forced into theirs??? Show me the elements of force. Show me, for each of the numerous failures of the Palestinians, the specific Israeli action that left no alternative for the Palestinians.
Go kill your neighbors kids, then steal his house and force him to live in poverty in the back yard while you bang his wife in the bedroom window every night for him to see, and let me know why you think he's over reacting when he seems a little pissed at you. Let me know how that all turns out.
The Jews are still living in the oppression of the holocaust? I thought Hitler was defeated, and that analogous hardship has ended. I'm not getting that line of thought at all.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
:rolleyes:
You realize you just justified Israeli violence too, right?
I'm saying they, and countless other groups, have dealt with worse forms of oppression and come out on the other side. The holocaust ended at about the same time as Israel was born. Do you see Israel dropping bombs on Germany 60 years later, or vice versa? No. Why? Because the Jewish and German people moved past the hate, anger, and conflict. The same thing has to happen here. Both sides need to stop pretending that all their woes are the fault of the other side and start taking responsibility for their own actions. I'm honestly so sick of people apologizing for one side or the other and pretending that they're victims as they aggress against their so-called "oppressors". It's childish and ridiculous. Unfortunately, lots of people on the inside and outside buy into the bullshit, so it continues.
I didn't Justify Israeli violence. I did no such thing other than to describe exactly what they are doing.
Israel isn't dropping bombs on Germany, but they are on the Palestinians. You would think they would have learned something.
They have the Palestinians in a strangle hold, to the point of hopelessness and desperation. They Palestinians are oppressed beyond belief....it's literally beyond human. It's one gigantic prison camp that used to be their homeland. They are stripped of their dignity on a daily basis, often several times a day. So, I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to point out.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
You're excusing Palestinian violence because of Israeli violence without realizing, in that same sentiment, that you're excusing Israeli violence. In other words, you're pretending that Palestinian violence is an inevitable effect of Israeli violence while claiming that Israeli violence is not an also an effect of Palestinian violence. It's a foolish double-standard.
I would think that. Same goes for the Palestinians, yes?
I'm pointing out that Palestine, while currently a human sinkhole, still has and has had the potential to be a unified nation that can act like one. And you, and others, are excusing every one of their failures based on silly, contradictory principles.
It's not a double standard because it's not a balanced equation. It's like cornering an animal on and wondering why it attacked.
That is simple as an analogy as it gets.
Israel could actually help (I mean really help instead of pretending to), but they don't. The Palestinians have jack shit, and are expected to bend over until they are absorbed.
It's called ethnic cleansing.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Both animals perceive themselves as cornered. See, this is what you're doing. You're making up justifications in your head for why one group of people are just mindless reactors (the Palestinians) and why the other are wicked overlords (the Israelis), and pretending that reality matches your analogy. It doesn't. Both sides are attacking each other for precisely the same reason: they believe the crimes of the other side justifies their own. So stop encouraging or sanctioning their stupidity.
So could the Palestinians!
Jack shit??? They have 4 million minds and bodies. They get billions of dollars in foreign aid. They have access to and the support of nations with trillions of dollars in oil revenue. This isn't sub-saharan Africa.
And many of them demand the exact same thing of Israel.
:rolleyes:
Israel has the capability to ethnically cleanse Palestine in a day. You're talking about only 10,000 square miles here. Israel itself has over 1,000,000 Arabs living in their own borders who are part of Israeli society and not directly persecuted by the Israeli government. To toss the claim of "ethnic cleansing" is absolutely ridiculous. This is and always has been a war over territory.
So you see the Palestinians as equal to Israeli's in finances and living conditions
You're the first person I've ever heard that from.
That's just not the case at all.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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Absolutely not. I simply don't see the Palestinians as a people with so little that there is no hope for development or peace. You're claiming that Palestine has "jack shit", when foreign aid alone would give to each Palestinian 100 times the amount of annual income as someone living in improverished areas in Africa.
I wonder how yassar arafat died with a net worth of 500 million dollars?
So you see the Palestinians having the same living conditions and financial situation as the Israelis was the question.
Because I'm saying the circumstances are not balanced, and that much is strikingly apparent, but somehow you seem to think everything is equal.
You see what you're saying now don't you?
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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And "absolutely not" was my answer.
I don't think "everything is equal". I simply don't think that when a poorer man is hit by a richer man that the poorer man is somehow automatically justified to do whatever he wants to do.
What is equal here are the moral consequences of murder and violence. Israeli violence is not morally excusable because they are Westernized. Palestinian violence is not morally excusable because they are poor or oppressed. Neither side can claim to be solely oppressed by the other and neither side can claim their woes are solely the fault of the other. So you can either recongize this and drop the hate and anger and work towards a solution, or you can continue to cheer on one side as it lobs ordinance at the other. Which is it going to be?
Here is an interesting perspective from someone who has been to Palestine. The article is a few years old but after reading it I feel it is still relevant today.
http://georgie.ripserve.com/
and here is a another with interesting set of pictures of a settlement
http://www.thinkandask.com/news/jenkajourney.html
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
The Tie-Dye Lady is HOT!!!
That's true, however the place is run like a jail and the Palestinians are the prisoners.
It's essentially a hardcore police state run by the haves against the have nots. You would think they would expect some reprisal for such a hard headed cynical approach.
They even have checkpoints on roads in Palestinian territory that do not even cross into Israeli settlements. What does that tell you? I know what message it sends to the Palestinians who have to endure it constantly. This builds up and accumulates in even the most peaceful of minds.
It's a little bit beyond just Israeli defense, and I think pretty much everyone knows it.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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No, it's not. The place is run like a warzone because that's exactly what it is.
I would think that, yes. And you would think the Palestinians would expect what they get for their infighting, terrorism and complete inability to form the basics of a functioning state.
Of course it's a bit beyond defense! It's way beyond defense. Now, if people like you try applying that logic to the other side, maybe we'll get somewhere.
Not to cut your talk short, but.........why was Israel created if this above is not one of the big parts of the answer?????!!!
Chosen people, sacred land, hard done by, yadda, yadda, yadda.
I guess they got really, really, lucky eh?
You really need to read up and visit with people who actually have lived under the Israeli occupation or are doing so now.
It is a police state thus it is a prison.
edit to add
sorry the response was to farfromglorified seemed have messed up my quoting
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
The Tie-Dye Lady is HOT!!!
*sigh*
I'm not justifying Israeli actions nor am I claiming that Israel does not occupy Palestine nor am I saying that Israel is not partly responsible for the conditions of Palestine. I'm not saying that life for average, peaceful Palestinians is not awful. It is awful. It is a terrible existence.
Coddling the Palestinian people and treating them like complete victims, however, is idiotic. We already did this with the Israelis 60 years ago, and look where it got us.
If you want to justify Palestinian suicide bombings and rocket attacks, knock yourself out. If you want to justify Israeli incursions or bombings, ditto. Just don't be surprised when you get more of them.
No, it is a warzone thus it is a hell hole.
Israel was created because foolish people bought into guilt regarding the victimization of its people. Sound familiar?
It just won't work until both sides have equal opportunity of circumstance in their surroundings.
One side is master, the other the slave. Locked together in conflict.
Master likes the slave to be the slave. Slave is tired.
Israel will need to concede here, it's the only direction that will solve the puzzle.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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( o.O)
(")_(")
A war zone implies that there is a real way the Palestinians can fight back.
Reading up and talking with people who have lived there is somehow a way I would justify a suicide bombing? A bit of projection on your part. And since you implied just that, does it makes it ok for me to say that you are happy the Israelis can bomb innocent people with US taxpayer paid F16s ?
Your asking for the Palestinians to make the first step towards peace? How do you expect the Palestinians to take the first step when they are living under a more and more desperate situation?
It is not like the Israelis have a good reputation as a fair and even handed democratic nation. US paid for cluster bombs are still killing people in Lebanon.
Trust must be earned and neither side in this conflict has done much to help. It will take the more powerful nation to make the first move and show people they can be trusted. Currently the Israeli government can be trusted as much as George Bush. That is just the way most of the world sees it.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
The Tie-Dye Lady is HOT!!!
Have you ever heard of India? How about Liberia? How did these nations ever achieve independence, by your logic?
Furthermore, how come our country and Mexico are not constantly at war?
:rolleyes:
You have an excellent title for your op-ed there.
LOL, why in the world would Israel concede? They are the ones who are prospering, while the Palestinians are the ones who are suffering.
I will never take the Palestinians seriously until they have leadership that denounces violence and comes to the negotiating table willing to hammer out an agreement where two states coexist.
Wake me when that happens. Until then, the Palestinians are just digging themselves farther into the past.
Let me just add here, that we all know why that can't happen. If a leader where to emerge in Palestine that wanted to unite the people there and solidify a nation that coexisted with Israel - he would be assisinated by his own people. The Palestinians are their own worst enemy - not Israel.
So you’re saying that the person getting his ass kick by a bully and having his property stolen by said bully needs to apologize to the bully for existing before the bully has any obligation to clean up his act?
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
The Tie-Dye Lady is HOT!!!
It implies that two groups are engaged in an armed conflict, which is exactly what is going on. Palestinians throw rocks, launch rockets and dispatch suicide bombers. They plant explosive devices. They are engaged in war. A war needn't be fair to be a war.
If you knew me, you'd know I have no interest in paying taxes, particularly those that go to Israel. Regardless, however, I'm not saying that you're justifying suicide bombing. I'm simply saying that if you want to justify that, or justify the actions of the Israelis, don't be surprised if they keep happening.
Not at all. I'm asking for the Palestinians to make a step towards peace. I don't care if it's the first or the last. This isn't synchronized swimming.
I expect them to denounce violence. I expect them to stem the civil conflict that is causing their society to collapse even further. I expect them to find a leader not defined by contradiction and hate. I expect them to envision a better life and seek it, rather than wallow in victimization. Desperation is not an excuse for not doing these things. Deperation is a cop-out being used to justify the very things they're denouncing.
Absolutely!
Absolutely, again!
I don't care about "the rest of the world". US zealotry and European idiocy have done more harm than good. This is not our business and we need to treat it as such. This is a challenge that needs to be met by the citizens of both Israel and Palestine and no one esle can do it for them.