Breach in the wall made by Palestinians at Gaza

spiral out

NCfan wrote:

Think about this....

Had the Arabs won any of the 5 wars with Israel in the last 60 years, and therefore the positions where switched - do you think they would concede anything to the Jews? Would they be acting any differently than Israel? Any worst?

Wars may be unjust, but it is a reality that strength and fighting determine the order of the world. Should native americans rise up and fight the US government becuase their land was stolen hundreds of years ago? They could, and they would have a point. They realize the past is the past, time has moved on, and that by doing that they stand 0 chance of acheiving anything other than their own demise. We learn from our mistakes and forge on for the sake of a better future. Too bad radical Arabs cannot do that. Too bad they teach this to their children, so the next generation cannot progress beyond the former.

These two factions have been fighting for thousands of years, but I can tell you that the war has been decided. One side just hasn't figured out they should give up yet.

There are 65 UN resolutions against Israel.

I don't see why Palestine should walk away. It's there land and it is being stolen by the Israelis. And helped along by America by way of Billions of dollars in aid each year.

jlew24asu

spiral out wrote:

There are 65 UN resolutions against Israel.

I don't see why Palestine should walk away. It's there land and it is being stolen by the Israelis. And helped along by America by way of Billions of dollars in aid each year.

how is it their land? it has changed hands several times over the last 4000 years. you pretend to be a smart person, look at the history of the land before you start proclaiming one group "owns" it.

farfromglorified

spiral out wrote:

There are 65 UN resolutions against Israel.

Hehe...ummm...the UN made Israel.

I don't see why Palestine should walk away.

Places can't walk anywhere.

It's there land and it is being stolen by the Israelis.

Why is it "there" land?

Kann

farfromglorified wrote:

Hehe...ummm...the UN made Israel.

under rules and conditions that are not being followed

Places can't walk anywhere.

Places no, but nations can disappear

Why is it "their" land?

it's not theirs, as land belongs to no one. but they have nowhere else to go.

NCfan

spiral out wrote:

There are 65 UN resolutions against Israel.

I don't see why Palestine should walk away. It's there land and it is being stolen by the Israelis. And helped along by America by way of Billions of dollars in aid each year.

This is a serious question, and I really want to understand your point of view. Please explain to me why you consider Palenstine "Arab" land.

This might sound harsh, but I challenge you to dispute it. And that is land is only somebody's to their extent to protect it. If somebody else comes along and takes it, there is no higher power that will give it back. History has shown us this since the begining of time, and it continues today all around the world.

The land in question has beeen conqurered and re-conqurered countless times througout history. Please don't act as if Jews have claim to this land, as it is the birthplace of their civilization too. There was a Jewish nation there 2,000 years ago with King David and the whole bit. You know, the Eygptains once enslaved the Jews thousands of years ago - maybe Israel should bomb Cairo for payback.

This may be a hard pill to swallow, but the reason Palestinians should walk away from trying to destroy Israel is becuase they have NO chance of succeeding. The war is over. At this point, Israel is so powerful and is supported by the most powerful nations on Earth that it's demise will not come for many generations to come.

So it's pretty safe to say, that they came out on top. It was a long, bloody struggle, but at this point - the Palestinian issue is just a thorn is Israel's side. It doesn't prohibit their society from progressing or their economy from growing. The same cannot be said for the Palestinians.

That is the tell-tale sign that Palestinians need to give up the pipe dream of a world without Israel and come to the negotiated table for the sake of their children, their children's children, and basically their society as a whole.

At this point, they just keep digging themselves further and further into a hole, and their society just keeps moving backwards. Seriously, now they have a bunch of radical nut jobs running their goverment in Gaza, and the only way they survive is on the good will and aid of other nations.

Quit dragging the whole world down. I know it's a tough pill to swallow, but EVOLVE ALREADY!!!!!

farfromglorified

Kann wrote:

under rules and conditions that are not being followed

What "rules and conditions" are those? It's not as is both sides weren't being actively violent to each other before Resolution 181.

Places no, but nations can disappear

Absolutely! This particular place has had numerous nations within it.

it's not theirs, as land belongs to no one. but they have nowhere else to go.

This statement makes no sense. They just blew up a wall and walked through it. They have many places to go.

jlew24asu

I suspect roland and spiral will put their tails between their legs and not come back. o well

Kann

farfromglorified wrote:

What "rules and conditions" are those? It's not as is both sides weren't being actively violent to each other before Resolution 181.

The rules that were created from 1948 to today. Things change, rules too, the UN thought that if both parties followed the rules they could coexist. They were (and still are) violent to each other but the resolutions should represent a way out of this crappy situation : i'm sure there is one on hamas bombing civilians, but there are also 65 others telling israel to cut their colonization policy.

Absolutely! This particular place has had numerous nations within it.

Maybe, but the people of the palestinian nation were living were the colon town of _______ now rests, and were kicked out to make room for other people. This is how you make a nation disappear. And why should that one in particular go away?

This statement makes no sense. They just blew up a wall and walked through it. They have many places to go.

Ok, these people have nowhere else to live legally and peacefully.

farfromglorified

Kann wrote:

The rules that were created from 1948 to today.

So let me ask you a question. If, tomorrow, the UN creates a new rule that totally sanctions any Israeli aggression, will you be ok with that?

Things change, rules too, the UN thought that if both parties followed the rules they could coexist. They were (and still are) violent to each other but the resolutions should represent a way out of this crappy situation : i'm sure there is one on hamas bombing civilians, but there are also 65 others telling israel to cut their colonization policy.

Why "should" resolutions represent a way out? A resolution is just a bunch of words on a piece of paper, and they're typically written by people who have nothing to do with the situation as it stands at that given point of time.

If anything, the history of this conflict should tell you that the UN is a complete irrelavancy whose actions have done absolutely nothing to help the situation. Do you think a fucking resolution from 6,000 miles away has any relevancy to the IDF agent gunning down a Palestinian kid in "defense" of his cultural homeland or to the suicide bomber sitting on a bus full of Israeli women and children try to "defend" his? Are you serious?

There are two ways out of this situation. The first is the arming of one side to the point that they could completely annihilate the other. The second is for both sides to realize that their actions have been deplorable and nothing short of pathetic and to reach an agreement regarding their individual territories and to fiercely defend that agreement.

Maybe, but the people of the palestinian nation were living were the colon town of _______ now rests, and were kicked out to make room for other people. This is how you make a nation disappear. And why should that one in particular go away?

Why should a nation "go away"? I don't know how to answer that question. However, nations do go away. Nations are dynamic collections of people subjected to power struggles from within and without. They grow, they shrink. They change. You can either accept that fact and seek to protect your people and your culture during those changes, or you can cling on to some point in history and foolishly pretend that it is different from every other point in history.

Ok, these people have nowhere else to live legally and peacefully.

I'm sorry, but the words "legally" and "peacefully" are pretty tough concepts to apply to this population. We're talking about a society that, in and of itself, is very fractured. It is one that has been at war with itself and others for quite some time, and has never been able to construct consistent institutions that could actually form, for them, the concept of "legal". This is not to suggest that Palestinian failures are entirely the fault of Palestinians. They are simply partly at fault, and much blame also lies with the Israelis.

Palestinians who wish for law and order and peace would be wise to go elsewhere. Contrary to popular belief, Palestine has a northern, eastern, and southern border. Many good people are testing those borders now and are seeking good lives elsewhere. Surrounding arab nations and western nations would be wise to put their money where their mouths are and help these people find safe havens.

Israel has every right to protect itself and its borders. However, they have no right to aggressively expand those borders in the name of "peace". Israel needs to stop pushing beyond its territory. The need to wait out as best they can the implosion that is happening within Palestinian society until some kind of unified leadership emerges from this chaos.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

Yeah, that pretty much goes both ways.

You can either sit there and fan the fire, or you can stop buying into the bullshit of one side or the other.

Regardless...Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes, then hands out guns to racists nuts that they place in those new homes of which they build on stolen land.

It's a bit of a lopsided equation, on where the anger is coming from imo.

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Regardless...Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes, then hands out guns to racists nuts that they place in those new homes of which they build on stolen land.

"Regardless...[Palestinians fire rockets into Israeli homes], then hand out guns to racists nuts that they place in those new homes of which they build on stolen land."

Now, where does that leave us?

It's a bit of a lopsided equation, on where the anger is coming from imo.

Of course it's lopsided. That doesn't change the fundamentals of the equation, however. Anger is not the solution to these problems. Anger will only make them worse.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

"Regardless...[Palestinians fire rockets into Israeli homes], then hand out guns to racists nuts that they place in those new homes of which they build on stolen land."

Now, where does that leave us?



Of course it's lopsided. That doesn't change the fundamentals of the equation, however. Anger is not the solution to these problems. Anger will only make them worse.

One side claims it is more civilized, knows better on what is to be, and pretends to be the model on how to behave in a modern society, but clearly they are not.

This is why I place unequal amounts of blame on the situation.

jlew24asu

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

One side claims it is more civilized, knows better on what is to be, and pretends to be the model on how to behave in a modern society, but clearly they are not.

This is why I place unequal amounts of blame on the situation.

how contradictory.


more blame? you place ALL the blame. at least the other side doesnt claim to be a model on how to behave in a modern society. clearly they do not.

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

One side claims it is more civilized, knows better on what is to be, and pretends to be the model on how to behave in a modern society, but clearly they are not.

Both sides claim all sorts of foolishness. Open your ears.

This is why I place unequal amounts of blame on the situation.

Ok. What blame do you put on the Palestinian side?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

Both sides claim all sorts of foolishness. Open your ears.

Well Israel holds a lot of cards to behave the way they do imo. It's like rich people treating poor people like garbage.

Ok. What blame do you put on the Palestinian side?

The Palestinians could be more civilized about it, but they aren't even listened to when they try to be (they are not even viewed as human beings), so I can't say I blame their level of frustration, resentment, and anger, aside from knowing they should know violence only defeats their cause. It's pretty telling when someone is willing to end their own life in an act of violence. This is not a choice, but a consequence they are forced into. Driven to desperation and madness would best describe it all I think.

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

The Palestinians could be more civilized about it

So the Israeli claim, if hypocritical, does have some merit?

but they aren't even listened to when they try to be (they are not even viewed as human beings)

Huh? They've been listened to many times. They've also been treated as sub-human many times. To make an absolute out of either is silly.

so I can't say I blame their level of frustration, resentment, and anger, aside from knowing they should know violence only defeats their cause. It's pretty telling when someone is willing to end their own life in an act of violence.

It is telling. Telling of stupidity above all else.

This is not a choice, but a consequence they are forced into. Driven to desperation and madness would best describe it all I think.

See, this is really where the idiocy comes to a head. If they're "forced into" their current situation, how do you explain the countless societies (including the Jews themselves) that have come back from similar and even worse situations??? Furthermore, if they're "forced into" their current situation, aren't the Israelis forced into theirs??? Show me the elements of force. Show me, for each of the numerous failures of the Palestinians, the specific Israeli action that left no alternative for the Palestinians.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

So the Israeli claim, if hypocritical, does have some merit?



Huh? They've been listened to many times. They've also been treated as sub-human many times. To make an absolute out of either is silly.



It is telling. Telling of stupidity above all else.



See, this is really where the idiocy comes to a head. If they're "forced into" their current situation, how do you explain the countless societies (including the Jews themselves) that have come back from similar and even worse situations??? Furthermore, if they're "forced into" their current situation, aren't the Israelis forced into theirs??? Show me the elements of force. Show me, for each of the numerous failures of the Palestinians, the specific Israeli action that left no alternative for the Palestinians.

Go kill your neighbors kids, then steal his house and force him to live in poverty in the back yard while you bang his wife in the bedroom window every night for him to see, and let me know why you think he's over reacting when he seems a little pissed at you. Let me know how that all turns out.

The Jews are still living in the oppression of the holocaust? I thought Hitler was defeated, and that analogous hardship has ended. I'm not getting that line of thought at all.

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Go kill your neighbors kids, then steal his house and force him to live in poverty in the back yard while you bang his wife in the bedroom window every night for him to see, and let me know why you think he's over reacting when he seems a little pissed at you. Let me know how that all turns out.

:rolleyes:

You realize you just justified Israeli violence too, right?

The Jews are still living in the oppression of the holocaust? I thought Hitler was defeated, and that analogous hardship has ended. I'm not getting that line of thought at all.

I'm saying they, and countless other groups, have dealt with worse forms of oppression and come out on the other side. The holocaust ended at about the same time as Israel was born. Do you see Israel dropping bombs on Germany 60 years later, or vice versa? No. Why? Because the Jewish and German people moved past the hate, anger, and conflict. The same thing has to happen here. Both sides need to stop pretending that all their woes are the fault of the other side and start taking responsibility for their own actions. I'm honestly so sick of people apologizing for one side or the other and pretending that they're victims as they aggress against their so-called "oppressors". It's childish and ridiculous. Unfortunately, lots of people on the inside and outside buy into the bullshit, so it continues.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

:rolleyes:

You realize you just justified Israeli violence too, right?



I'm saying they, and countless other groups, have dealt with worse forms of oppression and come out on the other side. The holocaust ended at about the same time as Israel was born. Do you see Israel dropping bombs on Germany 60 years later, or vice versa? No. Why? Because the Jewish and German people moved past the hate, anger, and conflict. The same thing has to happen here. Both sides need to stop pretending that all their woes are the fault of the other side and start taking responsibility for their own actions. I'm honestly so sick of people apologizing for one side or the other and pretending that they're victims as they aggress against their so-called "oppressors". It's childish and ridiculous. Unfortunately, lots of people on the inside and outside buy into the bullshit, so it continues.

I didn't Justify Israeli violence. I did no such thing other than to describe exactly what they are doing.

Israel isn't dropping bombs on Germany, but they are on the Palestinians. You would think they would have learned something.

They have the Palestinians in a strangle hold, to the point of hopelessness and desperation. They Palestinians are oppressed beyond belief....it's literally beyond human. It's one gigantic prison camp that used to be their homeland. They are stripped of their dignity on a daily basis, often several times a day. So, I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to point out.

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I didn't Justify Israeli violence. I did no such thing other than to describe exactly what they are doing.

You're excusing Palestinian violence because of Israeli violence without realizing, in that same sentiment, that you're excusing Israeli violence. In other words, you're pretending that Palestinian violence is an inevitable effect of Israeli violence while claiming that Israeli violence is not an also an effect of Palestinian violence. It's a foolish double-standard.

Israel isn't dropping bombs on Germany, but they are on the Palestinians. You would think they would have learned something.

I would think that. Same goes for the Palestinians, yes?

They have the Palestinians in a strangle hold, to the point of hopelessness and desperation. They Palestinians are oppressed beyond belief....it's literally beyond human. It's one gigantic prison camp that used to be their homeland. They are stripped of their dignity on a daily basis, often several times a day. So, I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to point out.

I'm pointing out that Palestine, while currently a human sinkhole, still has and has had the potential to be a unified nation that can act like one. And you, and others, are excusing every one of their failures based on silly, contradictory principles.