Breach in the wall made by Palestinians at Gaza

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

You're excusing Palestinian violence because of Israeli violence without realizing, in that same sentiment, that you're excusing Israeli violence. In other words, you're pretending that Palestinian violence is an inevitable effect of Israeli violence while claiming that Israeli violence is not an also an effect of Palestinian violence. It's a foolish double-standard.



I would think that. Same goes for the Palestinians, yes?



I'm pointing out that Palestine, while currently a human sinkhole, still has and has had the potential to be a unified nation that can act like one. And you, and others, are excusing every one of their failures based on silly, contradictory principles.

It's not a double standard because it's not a balanced equation. It's like cornering an animal on and wondering why it attacked.

That is simple as an analogy as it gets.

Israel could actually help (I mean really help instead of pretending to), but they don't. The Palestinians have jack shit, and are expected to bend over until they are absorbed.

It's called ethnic cleansing.

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

It's not a double standard because it's not a balanced equation. It's like cornering an animal on and wondering why it attacked.

That is simple as an analogy as it gets.

Both animals perceive themselves as cornered. See, this is what you're doing. You're making up justifications in your head for why one group of people are just mindless reactors (the Palestinians) and why the other are wicked overlords (the Israelis), and pretending that reality matches your analogy. It doesn't. Both sides are attacking each other for precisely the same reason: they believe the crimes of the other side justifies their own. So stop encouraging or sanctioning their stupidity.

Israel could actually help (I mean really help instead of pretending to), but they don't.

So could the Palestinians!

The Palestinians have jack shit

Jack shit??? They have 4 million minds and bodies. They get billions of dollars in foreign aid. They have access to and the support of nations with trillions of dollars in oil revenue. This isn't sub-saharan Africa.

and are expected to bend over until they are absorbed.

And many of them demand the exact same thing of Israel.

It's called ethnic cleansing.

:rolleyes:

Israel has the capability to ethnically cleanse Palestine in a day. You're talking about only 10,000 square miles here. Israel itself has over 1,000,000 Arabs living in their own borders who are part of Israeli society and not directly persecuted by the Israeli government. To toss the claim of "ethnic cleansing" is absolutely ridiculous. This is and always has been a war over territory.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

Both animals perceive themselves as cornered. See, this is what you're doing. You're making up justifications in your head for why one group of people are just mindless reactors (the Palestinians) and why the other are wicked overlords (the Israelis), and pretending that reality matches your analogy. It doesn't. Both sides are attacking each other for precisely the same reason: they believe the crimes of the other side justifies their own. So stop encouraging or sanctioning their stupidity.



So could the Palestinians!



Jack shit??? They have 4 million minds and bodies. They get billions of dollars in foreign aid. They have access to and the support of nations with trillions of dollars in oil revenue. This isn't sub-saharan Africa.



And many of them demand the exact same thing of Israel.



:rolleyes:

Israel has the capability to ethnically cleanse Palestine in a day. You're talking about only 10,000 square miles here. Israel itself has over 1,000,000 Arabs living in their own borders who are part of Israeli society and not directly persecuted by the Israeli government. To toss the claim of "ethnic cleansing" is absolutely ridiculous. This is and always has been a war over territory.

So you see the Palestinians as equal to Israeli's in finances and living conditions

You're the first person I've ever heard that from.

That's just not the case at all.

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

So you see the Palestinians as equal to Israeli's in finances and living conditions

Absolutely not. I simply don't see the Palestinians as a people with so little that there is no hope for development or peace. You're claiming that Palestine has "jack shit", when foreign aid alone would give to each Palestinian 100 times the amount of annual income as someone living in improverished areas in Africa.

jlew24asu

farfromglorified wrote:

Absolutely not. I simply don't see the Palestinians as a people with so little that there is no hope for development or peace. You're claiming that Palestine has "jack shit", when foreign aid alone would give to each Palestinian 100 times the amount of annual income as someone living in improverished areas in Africa.

I wonder how yassar arafat died with a net worth of 500 million dollars?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

Absolutely not. I simply don't see the Palestinians as a people with so little that there is no hope for development or peace. You're claiming that Palestine has "jack shit", when foreign aid alone would give to each Palestinian 100 times the amount of annual income as someone living in improverished areas in Africa.

So you see the Palestinians having the same living conditions and financial situation as the Israelis was the question.

Because I'm saying the circumstances are not balanced, and that much is strikingly apparent, but somehow you seem to think everything is equal.

You see what you're saying now don't you?

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

So you see the Palestinians having the same living conditions and financial situation as the Israelis was the question.

And "absolutely not" was my answer.

Because I'm saying the circumstances are not balanced, and that much is strikingly apparent, but somehow you seem to think everything is equal.

I don't think "everything is equal". I simply don't think that when a poorer man is hit by a richer man that the poorer man is somehow automatically justified to do whatever he wants to do.

What is equal here are the moral consequences of murder and violence. Israeli violence is not morally excusable because they are Westernized. Palestinian violence is not morally excusable because they are poor or oppressed. Neither side can claim to be solely oppressed by the other and neither side can claim their woes are solely the fault of the other. So you can either recongize this and drop the hate and anger and work towards a solution, or you can continue to cheer on one side as it lobs ordinance at the other. Which is it going to be?

theroachman

A cage is a cage no matter how much gold the bars are made from.

Here is an interesting perspective from someone who has been to Palestine. The article is a few years old but after reading it I feel it is still relevant today.


http://georgie.ripserve.com/

and here is a another with interesting set of pictures of a settlement

http://www.thinkandask.com/news/jenkajourney.html

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

And "absolutely not" was my answer.



I don't think "everything is equal". I simply don't think that when a poorer man is hit by a richer man that the poorer man is somehow automatically justified to do whatever he wants to do.

What is equal here are the moral consequences of murder and violence. Israeli violence is not morally excusable because they are Westernized. Palestinian violence is not morally excusable because they are poor or oppressed. Neither side can claim to be solely oppressed by the other and neither side can claim their woes are solely the fault of the other. So you can either recongize this and drop the hate and anger and work towards a solution, or you can continue to cheer on one side as it lobs ordinance at the other. Which is it going to be?

That's true, however the place is run like a jail and the Palestinians are the prisoners.

It's essentially a hardcore police state run by the haves against the have nots. You would think they would expect some reprisal for such a hard headed cynical approach.

They even have checkpoints on roads in Palestinian territory that do not even cross into Israeli settlements. What does that tell you? I know what message it sends to the Palestinians who have to endure it constantly. This builds up and accumulates in even the most peaceful of minds.

It's a little bit beyond just Israeli defense, and I think pretty much everyone knows it.

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

That's true, however the place is run like a jail and the Palestinians are the prisoners.

No, it's not. The place is run like a warzone because that's exactly what it is.

It's essentially a hardcore police state run by the haves against the have nots. You would think they would expect some reprisal for such a hard headed cynical approach.

I would think that, yes. And you would think the Palestinians would expect what they get for their infighting, terrorism and complete inability to form the basics of a functioning state.

They even have checkpoints on roads in Palestinian territory that do not even cross into Israeli settlements. What does that tell you? I know what message it sends to the Palestinians who have to endure it constantly. This builds up and accumulates in even the most peaceful of minds.

It's a little bit beyond just Israeli defense, and I think pretty much everyone knows it.

Of course it's a bit beyond defense! It's way beyond defense. Now, if people like you try applying that logic to the other side, maybe we'll get somewhere.

even flow?

NCfan wrote:

This might sound harsh, but I challenge you to dispute it. And that is land is only somebody's to their extent to protect it. If somebody else comes along and takes it, there is no higher power that will give it back. History has shown us this since the begining of time, and it continues today all around the world.

Not to cut your talk short, but.........why was Israel created if this above is not one of the big parts of the answer?????!!!

Chosen people, sacred land, hard done by, yadda, yadda, yadda.

I guess they got really, really, lucky eh?

theroachman

Of course it's a bit beyond defense! It's way beyond defense. Now, if people like you try applying that logic to the other side, maybe we'll get somewhere.[/quote]


You really need to read up and visit with people who actually have lived under the Israeli occupation or are doing so now.

It is a police state thus it is a prison.


edit to add

sorry the response was to farfromglorified seemed have messed up my quoting

farfromglorified

You really need to read up and visit with people who actually have lived under the Israeli occupation or are doing so now.

*sigh*

I'm not justifying Israeli actions nor am I claiming that Israel does not occupy Palestine nor am I saying that Israel is not partly responsible for the conditions of Palestine. I'm not saying that life for average, peaceful Palestinians is not awful. It is awful. It is a terrible existence.

Coddling the Palestinian people and treating them like complete victims, however, is idiotic. We already did this with the Israelis 60 years ago, and look where it got us.

If you want to justify Palestinian suicide bombings and rocket attacks, knock yourself out. If you want to justify Israeli incursions or bombings, ditto. Just don't be surprised when you get more of them.

It is a police state thus it is a prison.

No, it is a warzone thus it is a hell hole.

farfromglorified

even flow? wrote:

Not to cut your talk short, but.........why was Israel created if this above is not one of the big parts of the answer?????!!!

Israel was created because foolish people bought into guilt regarding the victimization of its people. Sound familiar?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

No, it's not. The place is run like a warzone because that's exactly what it is.



I would think that, yes. And you would think the Palestinians would expect what they get for their infighting, terrorism and complete inability to form the basics of a functioning state.



Of course it's a bit beyond defense! It's way beyond defense. Now, if people like you try applying that logic to the other side, maybe we'll get somewhere.

It just won't work until both sides have equal opportunity of circumstance in their surroundings.

One side is master, the other the slave. Locked together in conflict.

Master likes the slave to be the slave. Slave is tired.

Israel will need to concede here, it's the only direction that will solve the puzzle.

theroachman

farfromglorified wrote:

*sigh*

I'm not justifying Israeli actions nor am I claiming that Israel does not occupy Palestine nor am I saying that Israel is not partly responsible for the conditions of Palestine. I'm not saying that life for average, peaceful Palestinians is not awful. It is awful. It is a terrible existence.

Coddling the Palestinian people and treating them like complete victims, however, is idiotic. We already did this with the Israelis 60 years ago, and look where it got us.

If you want to justify Palestinian suicide bombings and rocket attacks, knock yourself out. If you want to justify Israeli incursions or bombings, ditto. Just don't be surprised when you get more of them.



No, it is a warzone thus it is a hell hole.

A war zone implies that there is a real way the Palestinians can fight back.

Reading up and talking with people who have lived there is somehow a way I would justify a suicide bombing? A bit of projection on your part. And since you implied just that, does it makes it ok for me to say that you are happy the Israelis can bomb innocent people with US taxpayer paid F16s ?


Your asking for the Palestinians to make the first step towards peace? How do you expect the Palestinians to take the first step when they are living under a more and more desperate situation?

It is not like the Israelis have a good reputation as a fair and even handed democratic nation. US paid for cluster bombs are still killing people in Lebanon.



Trust must be earned and neither side in this conflict has done much to help. It will take the more powerful nation to make the first move and show people they can be trusted. Currently the Israeli government can be trusted as much as George Bush. That is just the way most of the world sees it.

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

It just won't work until both sides have equal opportunity of circumstance in their surroundings.

Have you ever heard of India? How about Liberia? How did these nations ever achieve independence, by your logic?

Furthermore, how come our country and Mexico are not constantly at war?

One side is master, the other the slave. Locked together in conflict.

:rolleyes:

You have an excellent title for your op-ed there.

NCfan

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

It just won't work until both sides have equal opportunity of circumstance in their surroundings.

One side is master, the other the slave. Locked together in conflict.

Master likes the slave to be the slave. Slave is tired.

Israel will need to concede here, it's the only direction that will solve the puzzle.

LOL, why in the world would Israel concede? They are the ones who are prospering, while the Palestinians are the ones who are suffering.

I will never take the Palestinians seriously until they have leadership that denounces violence and comes to the negotiating table willing to hammer out an agreement where two states coexist.

Wake me when that happens. Until then, the Palestinians are just digging themselves farther into the past.

Let me just add here, that we all know why that can't happen. If a leader where to emerge in Palestine that wanted to unite the people there and solidify a nation that coexisted with Israel - he would be assisinated by his own people. The Palestinians are their own worst enemy - not Israel.

theroachman

NCfan wrote:

LOL, why in the world would Israel concede? They are the ones who are prospering, while the Palestinians are the ones who are suffering.

I will never take the Palestinians seriously until they have leadership that denounces violence and comes to the negotiating table willing to hammer out an agreement where two states coexist.

Wake me when that happens. Until then, the Palestinians are just digging themselves farther into the past.

So you’re saying that the person getting his ass kick by a bully and having his property stolen by said bully needs to apologize to the bully for existing before the bully has any obligation to clean up his act?

farfromglorified

theroachman wrote:

A war zone implies that there is a real way the Palestinians can fight back.

It implies that two groups are engaged in an armed conflict, which is exactly what is going on. Palestinians throw rocks, launch rockets and dispatch suicide bombers. They plant explosive devices. They are engaged in war. A war needn't be fair to be a war.

Reading up and talking with people who have lived there is somehow a way I would justify a suicide bombing? A bit of projection on your part. And since you implied just that, does it makes it ok for me to say that you are happy the Israelis can bomb innocent people with US taxpayer paid F16s ?

If you knew me, you'd know I have no interest in paying taxes, particularly those that go to Israel. Regardless, however, I'm not saying that you're justifying suicide bombing. I'm simply saying that if you want to justify that, or justify the actions of the Israelis, don't be surprised if they keep happening.

Your asking for the Palestinians to make the first step towards peace?

Not at all. I'm asking for the Palestinians to make a step towards peace. I don't care if it's the first or the last. This isn't synchronized swimming.

How do you expect the Palestinians to take the first step when they are living under a more and more desperate situation?

I expect them to denounce violence. I expect them to stem the civil conflict that is causing their society to collapse even further. I expect them to find a leader not defined by contradiction and hate. I expect them to envision a better life and seek it, rather than wallow in victimization. Desperation is not an excuse for not doing these things. Deperation is a cop-out being used to justify the very things they're denouncing.

It is not like the Israelis have a good reputation as a fair and even handed democratic nation.

Absolutely!

US paid for cluster bombs are still killing people in Lebanon.

Absolutely, again!

Trust must be earned and neither side in this conflict has done much to help. It will take the more powerful nation to make the first move and show people they can be trusted. Currently the Israeli government can be trusted as much as George Bush. That is just the way most of the world sees it.

I don't care about "the rest of the world". US zealotry and European idiocy have done more harm than good. This is not our business and we need to treat it as such. This is a challenge that needs to be met by the citizens of both Israel and Palestine and no one esle can do it for them.