So you’re saying that the person getting his ass kick by a bully and having his property stolen by said bully needs to apologize to the bully for existing before the bully has any obligation to clean up his act?
These analogies are absolutely foolish. You have two bullies here who keep pointing their fingers at each other while begging for more violence.
I expect them to denounce violence. I expect them to stem the civil conflict that is causing their society to collapse even further. I expect them to find a leader not defined by contradiction and hate. I expect them to envision a better life and seek it, rather than wallow in victimization. Desperation is not an excuse for not doing these things. Deperation is a cop-out being used to justify the very things they're denouncing.
It implies that two groups are engaged in an armed conflict, which is exactly what is going on. Palestinians throw rocks, launch rockets and dispatch suicide bombers. They plant explosive devices. They are engaged in war. A war needn't be fair to be a war.
If you knew me, you'd know I have no interest in paying taxes, particularly those that go to Israel. Regardless, however, I'm not saying that you're justifying suicide bombing. I'm simply saying that if you want to justify that, or justify the actions of the Israelis, don't be surprised if they keep happening.
Not at all. I'm asking for the Palestinians to make a step towards peace. I don't care if it's the first or the last. This isn't synchronized swimming.
I expect them to denounce violence. I expect them to stem the civil conflict that is causing their society to collapse even further. I expect them to find a leader not defined by contradiction and hate. I expect them to envision a better life and seek it, rather than wallow in victimization. Desperation is not an excuse for not doing these things. Deperation is a cop-out being used to justify the very things they're denouncing.
Absolutely!
Absolutely, again!
I don't care about "the rest of the world". US zealotry and European idiocy have done more harm than good. This is not our business and we need to treat it as such. This is a challenge that needs to be met by the citizens of both Israel and Palestine and no one esle can do it for them.
Israel is our Business. The US is the reason there is an Israel. How is it not? And not caring or listing the others in the world is exactly why the world in it current messed up situation it is in today.
India was a larger force then the occupying British. Liberia gained its so called independence with the help of the US taxpayers. Though I would not call living under Charles Taylor as independence from anything. I think a better country for your analogy would have been the Philippines gaining its independence from the USA.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
So the guy with the nukes, the F16s, the tanks and all the rest of the military hardware the US gives them for free is also a victim then?
Absolutely. Israel is not "a guy". Israel is a country, filled with people. Its leaders may have nukes, F16s and tanks, but there are plenty of Israeli people sitting on buses and in their homes who have been senselessly killed, just as there have been children sitting on streetcorners and in homes in Palestine that have been senselessly killed. You can either try to make sense of the senseless with false analogies and twisted logic, or you can actually open up your eyes and realize that everything you've damned from one side is being employed by the other.
The US is the reason there is an Israel. How is it not?
Because it was formed by the UN, largely because American and European nations felt a mixture of guilt over the holocaust but had no interest in accepting millions of Jews into their society.
And not caring or listing the others in the world is exactly why the world in it current messed up situation it is in today.
Caring and listening are great things! Meddling and encouraging, however, are another.
India was a larger force then the occupying British. Liberia gained its so called independence with the help of the US taxpayers. Though I would not call living under Charles Taylor as independence from anything. I think a better country for your analogy would have been the Philippines gaining its independence from the USA.
In each case you had a weaker, poorer nation gaining independence by understanding the meaning of independence. The creedo of victimization is its anti-thesis, as it makes your existence completely dependent on the crimes you suffer.
Have you ever heard of India? How about Liberia? How did these nations ever achieve independence, by your logic?
Furthermore, how come our country and Mexico are not constantly at war?
:rolleyes:
You have an excellent title for your op-ed there.
It seems one side conceded, as states of inhumane oppression are no longer occurring in each example.
Have you looked at maps of Isreal's land progression over the years? Do you expect further concessions to take place by the Palestinians?
Like the Palestinians in Gaza routinely say, "they are trying to drive us into the sea". Just looking at he semantics from a map (overhead) perspective alone, this would appear very apparent.
Palestinians have no running water while across the street Israelis frolic in swimming pools and live in air conditioned luxurious homes.
Does that seem likely or at all realistic to you?
Conceding lower than dirt, is to be underneath it, as in dead.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
It seems one side conceded, as states of inhumane oppression are no longer occurring in each example.
Furthermore, both sides were not defined by "equality of opportunity in their environment", as you claimed they would have to be.
Have you looked at maps of Isreal's land progression over the years?
Absolutely.
Do you expect further concessions to take place by the Palestinians?
Futher concessions? They haven't conceded them. They've lost them, and they're demanding them back. They should get them back. And I certainly don't expect the Palestinians to concede anything to the Israelis other than the fact that each Israeli has the same right to exist as each Palestinian.
Furthermore, both sides were not defined by "equality of opportunity in their environment", as you claimed they would have to be.
Absolutely.
Futher concessions? They haven't conceded them. They've lost them, and they're demanding them back. They should get them back. And I certainly don't expect the Palestinians to concede anything to the Israelis other than the fact that each Israeli has the same right to exist as each Palestinian.
The Israeli's have peppered the entire area with settlements. This was not only a huge mistake but intentional and very telling.
If it was isolation or to be left alone they (Israelis) were seeking, they have failed miserably and purposefully by their own hand.
I doubt the true intentions of what the Israeli govt has to say, and they've etched it out in concrete and soil as living proof to that effect, and continue to do so.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
The Israeli's have peppered the entire area with settlements. This was not only a huge mistake but intentional and very telling.
Why do you keep telling me things about the Israelis as if I support them? I don't. Every one of those settlements should be removed. But nothing about a settlement makes me feel an ounce of sympathy for the Palestinian people.
If it was isolation or to be left alone they (Israelis) were seeking, they have failed miserably and purposefully by their own hand.
Absolutely! And if it was independence and peace the Palestinians were seeking, they have failed miserably and purposfully by their own hand.
I doubt the true intentions of what the Israeli govt has to say, and they've etched it out in concrete and soil as living proof to that effect, and continue to do so.
You can doubt whatever you'd like. Doubt is not your problem. Your belief in the snakeoil salesmen and guilt peddlers on the other side of the border is your problem.
Why do you keep telling me things about the Israelis as if I support them? I don't. Every one of those settlements should be removed. But nothing about a settlement makes me feel an ounce of sympathy for the Palestinian people.
Absolutely! And if it was independence and peace the Palestinians were seeking, they have failed miserably and purposfully by their own hand.
You can doubt whatever you'd like. Doubt is not your problem. Your belief in the snakeoil salesmen and guilt peddlers on the other side of the border is your problem.
It's a David v.s. Goliath scenario. I still don't see how you keep inserting equality in perception of the circumstances of the struggle. It's just not there. It's a perfect case scenario and sounds good on paper, but it's just not realistic in this scenario.
Actions will always speak louder than words from what I can see. And if Israel's cohesive land project lends any indication to the judgment of their actions then, it's all right there.
Big guy v.s. the little guy held up against the wall by the throat.
there's no snakeoil. Just evidence etched out in 3 dimensions across a land mass.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Hehe...quite literally, except in that story the Jew was weaker and, quite ironically, he killed the Philistine with a stone.
I still don't see how you keep inserting equality in perception of the circumstances of the struggle. It's just not there. It's a perfect case scenario and sounds good on paper, but it's just not realistic in this scenario.
I'm not inserting equality of means or equality of environment. I'm inserting a moral equality. Murder is murder. And you can't make a contradiction a reality.
Actions will always speak louder than words from what I can see.
Hehe...apparently only in the context of the Israelis.
And if Israel's cohesive land project lends any indication to the judgment of their actions then, it's all right there.
Absolutely! Again, why do you keep telling me things about the Israelis as if I support them? I don't.
Big guy v.s. the little guy held up against the wall by the throat.
Keep embracing the lamest liberal argument that exists -- that the little guy is never wrong.
there's no snakeoil. Just evidence etched out in 3 dimensions across a land mass.
You're "evidence" is conveniently selected and marked more by deliberate ignorance than it is by objective reasoning.
In my opinion... BOTH sides are assholes. Both sides are to blame and both sides are responsible for the bullshit that goes on over there. As long as assholes are dealing with assholes... the same ol' shit is going to happen.
My solution... "Hey... assholes!!! Quit being ASSHOLES!!!"
...
Problem solved.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Hehe...quite literally, except in that story the Jew was weaker and, quite ironically, he killed the Philistine with a stone.
I'm not inserting equality of means or equality of environment. I'm inserting a moral equality. Murder is murder. And you can't make a contradiction a reality.
Hehe...apparently only in the context of the Israelis.
Absolutely! Again, why do you keep telling me things about the Israelis as if I support them? I don't.
Keep embracing the lamest liberal argument that exists -- that the little guy is never wrong.
You're "evidence" is conveniently selected and marked more by deliberate ignorance than it is by objective reasoning.
My argument can be interpreted as is deliberate or one sided only if the circumstances are perceived as perfectly equal on both sides. They are definitely not equal in this situation.
That is as simple as I can state it, and of which it is readily observed by the most casual glance into the issue.
Lopsided equations get ubalanced results using the same variables (murder being the variable) regardless of what people would like to think and justify.
You describe a perfect case scenario using balanced criteria with equality existing on both sides. Although valid in theory, it is not a perfect case scenario that exists.
Quite the opposite in fact. Therefore the logic fails. If the sides are not equal, then one side is more antagonistic by default, there is no way around the fact.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
My argument can be interpreted as is deliberate or one sided only if the circumstances are perceived as perfectly equal on both sides. They are definitely not equal in this situation.
Your argument pretends that Palestinians have a claim to this land, but that Israelis don't. Yet both claim the land based on the same logic.
Your argument pretends that Paletinian violence is "defensive" while Israeli violence is "aggressive", despite the fact that both have a vast history of aggression.
Your argument pretends that morality is relative to one's living conditions.
Your argument pretends that an Israeli settlement on Palestinian land is an aggression, but that a Palestinian suicide bombing on Israeli land is an act of defense.
Your argument pretends that Israeli actions that differ from their words is hypocrisy, but make no mention of similar actions by the Palestinians.
Your argument pretends that Israel wishes to "ethnically cleanse" Palestine, but make no mention of Palestinian actions that beg the same interpretation.
Your argument pretends that Israelis are completely in control of their violence, but that Palestinian violence is simply an inevitable reaction to Israeli agression.
Each of these contradictions you believe to be explained by "inequalities of circumstance". This must mean that you have a formula that computes the moral measure of an action relative to a conditional. Can you please provide that formula?
Your argument pretends that Palestinians have a claim to this land, but that Israelis don't. Yet both claim the land based on the same logic.
Your argument pretends that Paletinian violence is "defensive" while Israeli violence is "aggressive", despite the fact that both have a vast history of aggression.
Your argument pretends that morality is relative to one's living conditions.
Your argument pretends that an Israeli settlement on Palestinian land is an aggression, but that a Palestinian suicide bombing on Israeli land is an act of defense.
Your argument pretends that Israeli actions that differ from their words is hypocrisy, but make no mention of similar actions by the Palestinians.
Your argument pretends that Israel wishes to "ethnically cleanse" Palestine, but make no mention of Palestinian actions that beg the same interpretation.
Your argument pretends that Israelis are completely in control of their violence, but that Palestinian violence is simply an inevitable reaction to Israeli agression.
Each of these contradictions you believe to be explained by "inequalities of circumstance". This must mean that you have a formula that computes the moral measure of an action relative to a conditional. Can you please provide that formula?
I'm just talking about what's happening right now by observing what's actually taking place, and weighing out what each side's daily life experience is like, and formulating how this causes people to act respond the way they do.
It's really more about human psychology than anything.
Until I see some Palestinian run checkpoints interrogating Israeli's and some Israeli homes and crops getting bulldozed by Palestinians I might see it closer towards the middle or where the problem is originating from.
Until then...no way it's just not even there to argue about. It doesn't exist as a balanced argument.
The logistics of it simply fall flat.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I'm just talking about what's happening right now by observing what's actually taking place, and weighing out what each side's daily life experience is like, and formulating how this causes people to act respond the way they do.
No you're not. Your fixating on the things that support your bias and ignoring everything else, just like the Israeli apologists do.
It's really more about human psychology than anything.
Hehe...yes it is, but probably not in the way you mean.
Until I see some Palestinian run checkpoints interrogating Israeli's and some Israeli homes and crops getting bulldozed by Palestinians I might see it closer towards the middle or where the problem is originating from.
Until then...no way it's just not even there to argue about. It doesn't exist as a balanced argument.
The logistics of it simply fall flat.
Sigh...well, I guess we're not going to get anywhere then. Keep cheering on your chosen killers, and keep pretending that senseless violence is going to bring about peace. There just might be an opening in the Bush administration for you before it's over.
No you're not. Your fixating on the things that support your bias and ignoring everything else, just like the Israeli apologists do.
Hehe...yes it is, but probably not in the way you mean.
Sigh...well, I guess we're not going to get anywhere then. Keep cheering on your chosen killers, and keep pretending that senseless violence is going to bring about peace. There just might be an opening in the Bush administration for you before it's over.
Well if the fight was fair I'd see it in the middle. I'm not seeing that.
Killing is wrong regardless, but one side is making the other side a little more desperate in the head, and to deny that is to not see the situation clearly.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Israel was created because foolish people bought into guilt regarding the victimization of its people. Sound familiar?
I never thought this is what I would read from you.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander. I guess the Jews need to realize they aren't, weren't and won't be the only people on this planet who are, were or about to be hard done by and get things for free. So they should be the first to get a grip on building walls around other forms of human lives.
Nice lets punish the children so the adults can prove they are right. And have you taken the time yet to actual read anything from the people who are currently living in hell?
The Catholic priest in Hamas-controlled Gaza has described the situation in his parish as “almost as bad as hell” and condemned what he called “punishment until death”.
Mgr Manawel Musallam, speaking exclusively to The Universe on Wednesday, said: “Gaza is dying.
“This is not punishment for salvation. This is punishment for extermination. It is the punishment of a nation.”
The priest explained how thousands of people had escaped Palestine into Egypt when gunmen blew up part of the border wall at the Rafah crossing overnight on Tuesday. The exodus has taken place as a result of an ongoing Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip to combat rocket attacks on its territory.
Mgr Musallam explained: “People have gone to find food and employment [in Egypt]. There is no food here, no employment here. We have a lack of water and electricity.
“The situation is critical. Streets are covered with sewerage. I see the sick crying and dying.
“Our hospitals need electricity and medication but out of 3,700 parcels of supplies only nine were allowed in.”
Mgr Musallam said children in the Holy Family Catholic School had to walk to school as there was no fuel for transport. Pupils and teachers arrive dirty because they cannot wash as water has to be pumped into buildings using electricity.
“In our school canteen, we have to feed 700 pupils but have only enough food for 30 or 40,” he added. “The cook cannot find anything to give them to eat. With no electricity and no water there is very little you can cook. You cannot even make a loaf of bread.
“I see children crying in huge distress all day long. Two pupils in the school, aged nine and six, were wounded in the bombings. They are afraid and traumatised because of the bombardments and of the darkness at night.
“They cannot even go to the toilet at night. They wet their beds but there is no water to wash afterwards. People come here to ask for water and electricity because we have a generator. They come to cook and they come for a shower.”
The heads of churches in Jerusalem and the Holy Land have issued a strongly- worded statement urging the Israeli authorities to end the current blockade.
They condemned the situation as “illegal collective punishment, an immoral act in violation of the basic human and natural laws as well as international law that cannot be tolerated anymore”.
“The siege over Gaza should end now,” they added. “One-and-a-half million people are imprisoned and without proper food or medicine, 800,000 are without electricity.
“In the name of God, we urge the international community, President Bush and the leaders of Israel, to put an end to this suffering and call upon Israel to activate Prime Minister Salam Fayyad’s initiative for Palestinian responsibility of the borders, thus ensuring sufficient normal flow of medicine, food, fuel and goods to Gaza.”
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
could be hype...mabye not. In any even, it would be a huge development if it did happen.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
You're either not listening to what I've said or don't understand it. I'm not justifying or attempting to justify the current Palestinian situation.
Sorry but your not reading what you are posting. You are expecting the Palestinians to just roll over. Such as when you imply Israeli settlements are not really acts of aggression. Destroying then paving over of a families farm is an act of war no different then a F16 carpet bombing a city in Lebanon. I really do not understand why you can not see the difference of scale or the desperation of the people of Palestine.
Peace can happen
It would be easy thing to do if the Israeli government were to have any recent history to show they can be honest negotiates. That is not going to happen as long a GW or any other Republican is president. Yes the US is the only county that can negotiate a peace even if you think it is not our problem.
But since we will never see this issue eye to eye then that is the way it will end
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
could be hype...mabye not. In any even, it would be a huge development if it did happen.
Your welcome
It is my opinion that people in the US have not seen what really is going on in the world outside of the safety of their homes. Till people here in the US, even those that understand the problem but still insist that the Palestinians are just as must to blame we will never see peace.
I also believe that if the US can actually do some good in this one corner of the world many of the other problems of the world will become more solvable even with out the help of the US. So really it is the responsibility of the US to do what is right. Demand the Government of Israel to go back to the negotiating table. Stop all transfer of US made arms to Israel. And start getting the medicine, food and water back into the occupied territories.
And I am not even going to go into the conspiracies about a peacefull Isreal and the end of the world jokes. Those are by sick folks who revel in war and death
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
You can't just bulldoze peoples houses and forcefully evict people from their land.
Bad idea right there. Thats where the leg you stand on gets lost.
"chosen people" only highways? They'll kill you for driving on them..
Insane. All credibility gets lost on that one too.
Blowback?...yeah definitely.
expect it.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
It is my opinion that people in the US have not seen what really is going on in the world outside of the safety of their homes. Till people here in the US, even those that understand the problem but still insist that the Palestinians are just as must to blame we will never see peace.
I also believe that if the US can actually do some good in this one corner of the world many of the other problems of the world will become more solvable even with out the help of the US. So really it is the responsibility of the US to do what is right. Demand the Government of Israel to go back to the negotiating table. Stop all transfer of US made arms to Israel. And start getting the medicine, food and water back into the occupied territories.
And I am not even going to go into the conspiracies about a peacefull Isreal and the end of the world jokes. Those are by sick folks who revel in war and death
Apparently the Palestinians are terrorists...so many terrorists it seems.
Israel is not though. Bit of a double standard.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
there's a lot of apologists for Israel in this thread.
The palestinians are justifiably angered. Israel kills 3 palestinians for every Israeli that dies. Who struck first is irrelevent at this point (though you'll recal Israel didn't exist pre-1946, thats telling). Even more criminal is the coverage if the war. NBC, CBS, and ABC all have a very one-sided view of the situation, portraying Israel as the innocent, reporting on their deaths 185% of the time (they run multiple stories on the same casualties) while only reporting 50% of palestinian casualties. Add the dirt poor situation palestinians have found themselves in -thanks to Israeli tanks and bulldozers (happily supplied by US corporations)-to the situation and palestinians are justifiable angered.
And no one seems to remember the times that Israel has invaded Lebanon, thousands dead, mostily civilian. And weekly there are Israeli forays into Palestinian territories, tanks and special ops units, often unprovoked. It's slaughter on a large scale. This is what people are resisting, Israeli agression.
Comments
These analogies are absolutely foolish. You have two bullies here who keep pointing their fingers at each other while begging for more violence.
I wish others would expect the same.
Israel is our Business. The US is the reason there is an Israel. How is it not? And not caring or listing the others in the world is exactly why the world in it current messed up situation it is in today.
India was a larger force then the occupying British. Liberia gained its so called independence with the help of the US taxpayers. Though I would not call living under Charles Taylor as independence from anything. I think a better country for your analogy would have been the Philippines gaining its independence from the USA.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
The Tie-Dye Lady is HOT!!!
So the guy with the nukes, the F16s, the tanks and all the rest of the military hardware the US gives them for free is also a victim then?
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
The Tie-Dye Lady is HOT!!!
Absolutely. Israel is not "a guy". Israel is a country, filled with people. Its leaders may have nukes, F16s and tanks, but there are plenty of Israeli people sitting on buses and in their homes who have been senselessly killed, just as there have been children sitting on streetcorners and in homes in Palestine that have been senselessly killed. You can either try to make sense of the senseless with false analogies and twisted logic, or you can actually open up your eyes and realize that everything you've damned from one side is being employed by the other.
No it isn't. Israel is Israel's business.
Because it was formed by the UN, largely because American and European nations felt a mixture of guilt over the holocaust but had no interest in accepting millions of Jews into their society.
Caring and listening are great things! Meddling and encouraging, however, are another.
In each case you had a weaker, poorer nation gaining independence by understanding the meaning of independence. The creedo of victimization is its anti-thesis, as it makes your existence completely dependent on the crimes you suffer.
It seems one side conceded, as states of inhumane oppression are no longer occurring in each example.
Have you looked at maps of Isreal's land progression over the years? Do you expect further concessions to take place by the Palestinians?
Like the Palestinians in Gaza routinely say, "they are trying to drive us into the sea". Just looking at he semantics from a map (overhead) perspective alone, this would appear very apparent.
Palestinians have no running water while across the street Israelis frolic in swimming pools and live in air conditioned luxurious homes.
Does that seem likely or at all realistic to you?
Conceding lower than dirt, is to be underneath it, as in dead.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Furthermore, both sides were not defined by "equality of opportunity in their environment", as you claimed they would have to be.
Absolutely.
Futher concessions? They haven't conceded them. They've lost them, and they're demanding them back. They should get them back. And I certainly don't expect the Palestinians to concede anything to the Israelis other than the fact that each Israeli has the same right to exist as each Palestinian.
The Israeli's have peppered the entire area with settlements. This was not only a huge mistake but intentional and very telling.
If it was isolation or to be left alone they (Israelis) were seeking, they have failed miserably and purposefully by their own hand.
I doubt the true intentions of what the Israeli govt has to say, and they've etched it out in concrete and soil as living proof to that effect, and continue to do so.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Why do you keep telling me things about the Israelis as if I support them? I don't. Every one of those settlements should be removed. But nothing about a settlement makes me feel an ounce of sympathy for the Palestinian people.
Absolutely! And if it was independence and peace the Palestinians were seeking, they have failed miserably and purposfully by their own hand.
You can doubt whatever you'd like. Doubt is not your problem. Your belief in the snakeoil salesmen and guilt peddlers on the other side of the border is your problem.
It's a David v.s. Goliath scenario. I still don't see how you keep inserting equality in perception of the circumstances of the struggle. It's just not there. It's a perfect case scenario and sounds good on paper, but it's just not realistic in this scenario.
Actions will always speak louder than words from what I can see. And if Israel's cohesive land project lends any indication to the judgment of their actions then, it's all right there.
Big guy v.s. the little guy held up against the wall by the throat.
there's no snakeoil. Just evidence etched out in 3 dimensions across a land mass.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Everytime Israel makes concessions, Palestine wants more and more and more. And the rocket attacks never stop.
Hehe...quite literally, except in that story the Jew was weaker and, quite ironically, he killed the Philistine with a stone.
I'm not inserting equality of means or equality of environment. I'm inserting a moral equality. Murder is murder. And you can't make a contradiction a reality.
Hehe...apparently only in the context of the Israelis.
Absolutely! Again, why do you keep telling me things about the Israelis as if I support them? I don't.
Keep embracing the lamest liberal argument that exists -- that the little guy is never wrong.
You're "evidence" is conveniently selected and marked more by deliberate ignorance than it is by objective reasoning.
My solution... "Hey... assholes!!! Quit being ASSHOLES!!!"
...
Problem solved.
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm going to compare dogs to cats....doesn't work that well.
My argument can be interpreted as is deliberate or one sided only if the circumstances are perceived as perfectly equal on both sides. They are definitely not equal in this situation.
That is as simple as I can state it, and of which it is readily observed by the most casual glance into the issue.
Lopsided equations get ubalanced results using the same variables (murder being the variable) regardless of what people would like to think and justify.
You describe a perfect case scenario using balanced criteria with equality existing on both sides. Although valid in theory, it is not a perfect case scenario that exists.
Quite the opposite in fact. Therefore the logic fails. If the sides are not equal, then one side is more antagonistic by default, there is no way around the fact.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Your argument pretends that Palestinians have a claim to this land, but that Israelis don't. Yet both claim the land based on the same logic.
Your argument pretends that Paletinian violence is "defensive" while Israeli violence is "aggressive", despite the fact that both have a vast history of aggression.
Your argument pretends that morality is relative to one's living conditions.
Your argument pretends that an Israeli settlement on Palestinian land is an aggression, but that a Palestinian suicide bombing on Israeli land is an act of defense.
Your argument pretends that Israeli actions that differ from their words is hypocrisy, but make no mention of similar actions by the Palestinians.
Your argument pretends that Israel wishes to "ethnically cleanse" Palestine, but make no mention of Palestinian actions that beg the same interpretation.
Your argument pretends that Israelis are completely in control of their violence, but that Palestinian violence is simply an inevitable reaction to Israeli agression.
Each of these contradictions you believe to be explained by "inequalities of circumstance". This must mean that you have a formula that computes the moral measure of an action relative to a conditional. Can you please provide that formula?
I'm just talking about what's happening right now by observing what's actually taking place, and weighing out what each side's daily life experience is like, and formulating how this causes people to act respond the way they do.
It's really more about human psychology than anything.
Until I see some Palestinian run checkpoints interrogating Israeli's and some Israeli homes and crops getting bulldozed by Palestinians I might see it closer towards the middle or where the problem is originating from.
Until then...no way it's just not even there to argue about. It doesn't exist as a balanced argument.
The logistics of it simply fall flat.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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No you're not. Your fixating on the things that support your bias and ignoring everything else, just like the Israeli apologists do.
Hehe...yes it is, but probably not in the way you mean.
Sigh...well, I guess we're not going to get anywhere then. Keep cheering on your chosen killers, and keep pretending that senseless violence is going to bring about peace. There just might be an opening in the Bush administration for you before it's over.
Well if the fight was fair I'd see it in the middle. I'm not seeing that.
Killing is wrong regardless, but one side is making the other side a little more desperate in the head, and to deny that is to not see the situation clearly.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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I never thought this is what I would read from you.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander. I guess the Jews need to realize they aren't, weren't and won't be the only people on this planet who are, were or about to be hard done by and get things for free. So they should be the first to get a grip on building walls around other forms of human lives.
Nice lets punish the children so the adults can prove they are right. And have you taken the time yet to actual read anything from the people who are currently living in hell?
http://www.totalcatholic.com/pages/news_pages/2401gazablockade.html
Gaza priest decries Israeli blockade
The Catholic priest in Hamas-controlled Gaza has described the situation in his parish as “almost as bad as hell” and condemned what he called “punishment until death”.
Mgr Manawel Musallam, speaking exclusively to The Universe on Wednesday, said: “Gaza is dying.
“This is not punishment for salvation. This is punishment for extermination. It is the punishment of a nation.”
The priest explained how thousands of people had escaped Palestine into Egypt when gunmen blew up part of the border wall at the Rafah crossing overnight on Tuesday. The exodus has taken place as a result of an ongoing Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip to combat rocket attacks on its territory.
Mgr Musallam explained: “People have gone to find food and employment [in Egypt]. There is no food here, no employment here. We have a lack of water and electricity.
“The situation is critical. Streets are covered with sewerage. I see the sick crying and dying.
“Our hospitals need electricity and medication but out of 3,700 parcels of supplies only nine were allowed in.”
Mgr Musallam said children in the Holy Family Catholic School had to walk to school as there was no fuel for transport. Pupils and teachers arrive dirty because they cannot wash as water has to be pumped into buildings using electricity.
“In our school canteen, we have to feed 700 pupils but have only enough food for 30 or 40,” he added. “The cook cannot find anything to give them to eat. With no electricity and no water there is very little you can cook. You cannot even make a loaf of bread.
“I see children crying in huge distress all day long. Two pupils in the school, aged nine and six, were wounded in the bombings. They are afraid and traumatised because of the bombardments and of the darkness at night.
“They cannot even go to the toilet at night. They wet their beds but there is no water to wash afterwards. People come here to ask for water and electricity because we have a generator. They come to cook and they come for a shower.”
The heads of churches in Jerusalem and the Holy Land have issued a strongly- worded statement urging the Israeli authorities to end the current blockade.
They condemned the situation as “illegal collective punishment, an immoral act in violation of the basic human and natural laws as well as international law that cannot be tolerated anymore”.
“The siege over Gaza should end now,” they added. “One-and-a-half million people are imprisoned and without proper food or medicine, 800,000 are without electricity.
“In the name of God, we urge the international community, President Bush and the leaders of Israel, to put an end to this suffering and call upon Israel to activate Prime Minister Salam Fayyad’s initiative for Palestinian responsibility of the borders, thus ensuring sufficient normal flow of medicine, food, fuel and goods to Gaza.”
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
The Tie-Dye Lady is HOT!!!
Why?
The sum of two crimes is never justice.
You're either not listening to what I've said or don't understand it. I'm not justifying or attempting to justify the current Palestinian situation.
update: 500,000 may flood into Israel.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23111166-2703,00.html
could be hype...mabye not. In any even, it would be a huge development if it did happen.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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Peace can happen
It would be easy thing to do if the Israeli government were to have any recent history to show they can be honest negotiates. That is not going to happen as long a GW or any other Republican is president. Yes the US is the only county that can negotiate a peace even if you think it is not our problem.
But since we will never see this issue eye to eye then that is the way it will end
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
The Tie-Dye Lady is HOT!!!
Your welcome
It is my opinion that people in the US have not seen what really is going on in the world outside of the safety of their homes. Till people here in the US, even those that understand the problem but still insist that the Palestinians are just as must to blame we will never see peace.
I also believe that if the US can actually do some good in this one corner of the world many of the other problems of the world will become more solvable even with out the help of the US. So really it is the responsibility of the US to do what is right. Demand the Government of Israel to go back to the negotiating table. Stop all transfer of US made arms to Israel. And start getting the medicine, food and water back into the occupied territories.
And I am not even going to go into the conspiracies about a peacefull Isreal and the end of the world jokes. Those are by sick folks who revel in war and death
~Ralph Waldo Emerson~
The Tie-Dye Lady is HOT!!!
Bad idea right there. Thats where the leg you stand on gets lost.
"chosen people" only highways? They'll kill you for driving on them..
Insane. All credibility gets lost on that one too.
Blowback?...yeah definitely.
expect it.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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Apparently the Palestinians are terrorists...so many terrorists it seems.
Israel is not though. Bit of a double standard.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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( o.O)
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The palestinians are justifiably angered. Israel kills 3 palestinians for every Israeli that dies. Who struck first is irrelevent at this point (though you'll recal Israel didn't exist pre-1946, thats telling). Even more criminal is the coverage if the war. NBC, CBS, and ABC all have a very one-sided view of the situation, portraying Israel as the innocent, reporting on their deaths 185% of the time (they run multiple stories on the same casualties) while only reporting 50% of palestinian casualties. Add the dirt poor situation palestinians have found themselves in -thanks to Israeli tanks and bulldozers (happily supplied by US corporations)-to the situation and palestinians are justifiable angered.
And no one seems to remember the times that Israel has invaded Lebanon, thousands dead, mostily civilian. And weekly there are Israeli forays into Palestinian territories, tanks and special ops units, often unprovoked. It's slaughter on a large scale. This is what people are resisting, Israeli agression.