Breach in the wall made by Palestinians at Gaza

RolandTD20KdrummerRolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
edited January 2008 in A Moving Train
What Israel does to the Palestinians is thoroughly sickening. Destroying people's houses and physically forcing them from their land with violence and death....the very definition of terrorism itself.

pic:
http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/MIDEAST_ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS-4.sff_AXLP101_20080123031259.jpg

vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TocjkugWEEc

,
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.

http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

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Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • What Israel does to the Palestinians is thoroughly sickening. Destroying people's houses and physically forcing them from their land with violence and death....the very definition of terrorism itself.

    pic:
    http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/MIDEAST_ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS-4.sff_AXLP101_20080123031259.jpg

    vid:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TocjkugWEEc

    ,

    Some one jump in and prove me wrong,
    but i'm gonna go out on a limb and take a wild guess this wasn't reported on the american nightly news?

    Got sad and wanted to turn this off by the time the guys were haulin' the cement.

    The hypocratic righteousness of the Western moral authority is nauseating.

    :( :( :(

    Then I SAW THIS.
    - Gaza City was plunged into darkness Sunday after Israel blocked the shipment of fuel that powers its only electrical plant in retaliation for persistent rocket attacks by Gaza militants.

    The power cut forced already beleaguered Gazans to stock up on food and batteries in anticipation of dark, cold days ahead. Gaza officials warned the move would cause a health catastrophe while a U.N. agency and human rights groups condemned Israel.

    "We have the choice to either cut electricity on babies in the maternity ward or heart surgery patients or stop operating rooms," Gaza Health Ministry official Dr. Moaiya Hassanain said.

    :sigh:

    Real civilized response Israel.
    :( :(
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    What Israel does to the Palestinians is thoroughly sickening. Destroying people's houses and physically forcing them from their land with violence and death....the very definition of terrorism itself.

    pic:
    http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/MIDEAST_ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS-4.sff_AXLP101_20080123031259.jpg

    vid:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TocjkugWEEc

    ,

    all of which could be avoided if hamas stopped firing missiles into Israel
  • jlew24asu wrote:
    all of which could be avoided if hamas stopped firing missiles into Israel

    Of course...make everyone suffer.

    Nice deduction.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
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  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Of course...make everyone suffer.

    Nice deduction.

    Israel certainly overacts, theres no question. but my statement holds true. stop firing rockets, these problems go away.
  • jlew24asu wrote:
    Israel certainly overacts, theres no question. but my statement holds true. stop firing rockets, these problems go away.

    That's a very naive viewpoint. It's much bigger than that. The words" god's chosen people" and "apartheid" come to mind.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • why do they have a wall with egypt?
  • NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
    That's a very naive viewpoint. It's much bigger than that. The words" god's chosen people" and "apartheid" come to mind.

    What a hypocritical thing to say when the stated goal of Hamas is the destruction of the Israeli nation. It's not the jews who can't live next to arabs, it's the fundamentalist Arabs, such as Hamas that cannot live with jews.

    The phrase that comes to mind for me is "know when to hold'em and know when to fold'em." There is 0 probability that Hamas will be able to acheive their stated position, save the use of nucelar weapons.

    The position of Hamas keeps them from the negotiating table. So they wage a futile gureila war, picking off Israeli's here and there, with no real chance of acheiving anything. All the while, screaming injustice as Israel acts to mitigate this threat.

    It's also ironic that you talk about Israel attacking Hamas and hurting the citizens of Gaza in the process. Can't the same be said of Hamas? If they would forfiet their pipe dream of destroying Israel, maybe they could stop the suffering of their own people.
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    MrSmith wrote:
    why do they have a wall with egypt?

    well, there was that little war a few years back.


    ________________________________________________


    basically the problem here is fundamentalists on both sides of the issue. Both are hell bent on destruction or starvation. It's a long war of attrition.

    The regular folks see it differently depending on which side they might be on, but in general this has been over the same issues since the beginning of civilization. They are fighting over semantics. Most people are just tired of the whole thing. Live and let live geez. Stop building walls and bulldozing houses, stop firing freaking rockets and blowing shit up. Allah dosen't care anymore. Let it freaking go. Call it Isralistine and get over the religion and the landmarks....no group is in the right.

    Basically they need Martin Luther King....squared.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • NCfan wrote:
    What a hypocritical thing to say when the stated goal of Hamas is the destruction of the Israeli nation. It's not the jews who can't live next to arabs, it's the fundamentalist Arabs, such as Hamas that cannot live with jews.

    The phrase that comes to mind for me is "know when to hold'em and know when to fold'em." There is 0 probability that Hamas will be able to acheive their stated position, save the use of nucelar weapons.

    The position of Hamas keeps them from the negotiating table. So they wage a futile gureila war, picking off Israeli's here and there, with no real chance of acheiving anything. All the while, screaming injustice as Israel acts to mitigate this threat.

    It's also ironic that you talk about Israel attacking Hamas and hurting the citizens of Gaza in the process. Can't the same be said of Hamas? If they would forfiet their pipe dream of destroying Israel, maybe they could stop the suffering of their own people.

    So you blame the Palestinians?

    Bulldozing houses and stealing land is nice...

    Cutting off electricity to hospitals is also nice.

    Nice colored lens.

    You must also be one of Gods chosen people.

    What parts of apartheid did you miss?
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    So you blame the Palestinians?

    Bulldozing houses and stealing land is nice...

    Cutting off electricity to hospitals is also nice.

    Nice colored lens.

    You must also be one of Gods chosen people.

    What parts of apartheid did you miss?

    he's blaming Hamas.

    sad you dont see them as part of the problem. a closed mind is never sees the big picture.
  • jlew24asu wrote:

    sad you dont see them as part of the problem. a closed mind is never sees the big picture.

    Oh you're going to talk again now?

    haha ok

    speaking of big picture and hypocrisy..

    how ironic indeed...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Oh you're going to talk again now?

    haha ok

    speaking of big picture and hypocrisy..

    how ironic indeed...

    I blame Israel and Hamas for the problems there. you only blame one side. you are becoming more irrelevant by the day, must be the meds.
  • spiral outspiral out Posts: 1,052
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I blame Israel and Hamas for the problems there. you only blame one side. you are becoming more irrelevant by the day, must be the meds.

    Tell me jlew how did it all start?
    Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!

    The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
  • NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
    So you blame the Palestinians?

    Bulldozing houses and stealing land is nice...

    Cutting off electricity to hospitals is also nice.

    Nice colored lens.

    You must also be one of Gods chosen people.

    What parts of apartheid did you miss?


    No, I don't blame the Palestinians - I blame fundamentalist Arabs who refuse to allow the existence of Israel, and fight and plot everyday to that end. Unfortunatly, the leadership in Gaza right now are exactly those Arabs.

    Let's have an honest discussion here. Israel holds blame too, no doubt. Many of there policies have only enflamed the problem.

    But my point is that no viable solution can be acheived as long as the Palestinian leadership (Gaza's Hamas for now) is hell bent on destroying Israel. So we can bicker all day long about suicde bombs and rocket attacks, or shutting down borers and cutting off electricity, but that is pointless. These things are only symptoms of a larger problem.

    Israel has made many concesions recently, and their leadership and citizens are primed to hammer out peace in the not too distant future. But that will never be acheived until radical Arabs reconcile that they must coexist with a Jewish nation.

    So I don't condone what Israel does in the short term, but I do place the blame on Palestinian leadership. The onus is on them to determine the future of the region. If they want to keep fighting, then the war will last indefinetly. Only when they want to find peace with Israel will the door open for that to become reality.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    spiral out wrote:
    Tell me jlew how did it all start?

    sometime between 2000-1800 BC


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Jerusalem
  • NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
    spiral out wrote:
    Tell me jlew how did it all start?


    Irrelevant...
  • spiral outspiral out Posts: 1,052
    NCfan wrote:
    Irrelevant...

    To you maybe, but this is not an equal fight by any means. And if you care to look at the situation with some clarity in other words read up on the conflict from sources other than the biased rubbish media, you would understand why people are not that much impressed with Israel.
    Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!

    The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
  • NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
    spiral out wrote:
    Tell me jlew how did it all start?


    Think about this....

    Had the Arabs won any of the 5 wars with Israel in the last 60 years, and therefore the positions where switched - do you think they would concede anything to the Jews? Would they be acting any differently than Israel? Any worst?

    Wars may be unjust, but it is a reality that strength and fighting determine the order of the world. Should native americans rise up and fight the US government becuase their land was stolen hundreds of years ago? They could, and they would have a point. They realize the past is the past, time has moved on, and that by doing that they stand 0 chance of acheiving anything other than their own demise. We learn from our mistakes and forge on for the sake of a better future. Too bad radical Arabs cannot do that. Too bad they teach this to their children, so the next generation cannot progress beyond the former.

    These two factions have been fighting for thousands of years, but I can tell you that the war has been decided. One side just hasn't figured out they should give up yet.
  • NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
    spiral out wrote:
    To you maybe, but this is not an equal fight by any means. And if you care to look at the situation with some clarity in other words read up on the conflict from sources other than the biased rubbish media, you would understand why people are not that much impressed with Israel.


    I've laid out many points, and you refuse to address any of them directly. So maybe it's a bit pre-mature to imply I don't have any "clarity" on the situation.

    Acutally, most of the world is extrememly impressed with Israel. They have one the most progressive societies and strongest economies in the world. All despite being located in a hostile region of the world with an unforgiving, dessert climate.
  • What Israel does to the Palestinians is thoroughly sickening. Destroying people's houses and physically forcing them from their land with violence and death....the very definition of terrorism itself.

    Yeah, that pretty much goes both ways.

    You can either sit there and fan the fire, or you can stop buying into the bullshit of one side or the other.
  • spiral outspiral out Posts: 1,052
    NCfan wrote:
    Think about this....

    Had the Arabs won any of the 5 wars with Israel in the last 60 years, and therefore the positions where switched - do you think they would concede anything to the Jews? Would they be acting any differently than Israel? Any worst?

    Wars may be unjust, but it is a reality that strength and fighting determine the order of the world. Should native americans rise up and fight the US government becuase their land was stolen hundreds of years ago? They could, and they would have a point. They realize the past is the past, time has moved on, and that by doing that they stand 0 chance of acheiving anything other than their own demise. We learn from our mistakes and forge on for the sake of a better future. Too bad radical Arabs cannot do that. Too bad they teach this to their children, so the next generation cannot progress beyond the former.

    These two factions have been fighting for thousands of years, but I can tell you that the war has been decided. One side just hasn't figured out they should give up yet.

    There are 65 UN resolutions against Israel.

    I don't see why Palestine should walk away. It's there land and it is being stolen by the Israelis. And helped along by America by way of Billions of dollars in aid each year.
    Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!

    The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    spiral out wrote:
    There are 65 UN resolutions against Israel.

    I don't see why Palestine should walk away. It's there land and it is being stolen by the Israelis. And helped along by America by way of Billions of dollars in aid each year.

    how is it their land? it has changed hands several times over the last 4000 years. you pretend to be a smart person, look at the history of the land before you start proclaiming one group "owns" it.
  • spiral out wrote:
    There are 65 UN resolutions against Israel.

    Hehe...ummm...the UN made Israel.
    I don't see why Palestine should walk away.

    Places can't walk anywhere.
    It's there land and it is being stolen by the Israelis.

    Why is it "there" land?
  • KannKann Posts: 1,146
    Hehe...ummm...the UN made Israel.
    under rules and conditions that are not being followed
    Places can't walk anywhere.
    Places no, but nations can disappear
    Why is it "their" land?
    it's not theirs, as land belongs to no one. but they have nowhere else to go.
  • NCfanNCfan Posts: 945
    spiral out wrote:
    There are 65 UN resolutions against Israel.

    I don't see why Palestine should walk away. It's there land and it is being stolen by the Israelis. And helped along by America by way of Billions of dollars in aid each year.


    This is a serious question, and I really want to understand your point of view. Please explain to me why you consider Palenstine "Arab" land.

    This might sound harsh, but I challenge you to dispute it. And that is land is only somebody's to their extent to protect it. If somebody else comes along and takes it, there is no higher power that will give it back. History has shown us this since the begining of time, and it continues today all around the world.

    The land in question has beeen conqurered and re-conqurered countless times througout history. Please don't act as if Jews have claim to this land, as it is the birthplace of their civilization too. There was a Jewish nation there 2,000 years ago with King David and the whole bit. You know, the Eygptains once enslaved the Jews thousands of years ago - maybe Israel should bomb Cairo for payback.

    This may be a hard pill to swallow, but the reason Palestinians should walk away from trying to destroy Israel is becuase they have NO chance of succeeding. The war is over. At this point, Israel is so powerful and is supported by the most powerful nations on Earth that it's demise will not come for many generations to come.

    So it's pretty safe to say, that they came out on top. It was a long, bloody struggle, but at this point - the Palestinian issue is just a thorn is Israel's side. It doesn't prohibit their society from progressing or their economy from growing. The same cannot be said for the Palestinians.

    That is the tell-tale sign that Palestinians need to give up the pipe dream of a world without Israel and come to the negotiated table for the sake of their children, their children's children, and basically their society as a whole.

    At this point, they just keep digging themselves further and further into a hole, and their society just keeps moving backwards. Seriously, now they have a bunch of radical nut jobs running their goverment in Gaza, and the only way they survive is on the good will and aid of other nations.

    Quit dragging the whole world down. I know it's a tough pill to swallow, but EVOLVE ALREADY!!!!!
  • Kann wrote:
    under rules and conditions that are not being followed

    What "rules and conditions" are those? It's not as is both sides weren't being actively violent to each other before Resolution 181.
    Places no, but nations can disappear

    Absolutely! This particular place has had numerous nations within it.
    it's not theirs, as land belongs to no one. but they have nowhere else to go.

    This statement makes no sense. They just blew up a wall and walked through it. They have many places to go.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    I suspect roland and spiral will put their tails between their legs and not come back. o well
  • KannKann Posts: 1,146
    What "rules and conditions" are those? It's not as is both sides weren't being actively violent to each other before Resolution 181.
    The rules that were created from 1948 to today. Things change, rules too, the UN thought that if both parties followed the rules they could coexist. They were (and still are) violent to each other but the resolutions should represent a way out of this crappy situation : i'm sure there is one on hamas bombing civilians, but there are also 65 others telling israel to cut their colonization policy.
    Absolutely! This particular place has had numerous nations within it.
    Maybe, but the people of the palestinian nation were living were the colon town of _______ now rests, and were kicked out to make room for other people. This is how you make a nation disappear. And why should that one in particular go away?
    This statement makes no sense. They just blew up a wall and walked through it. They have many places to go.
    Ok, these people have nowhere else to live legally and peacefully.
  • Kann wrote:
    The rules that were created from 1948 to today.

    So let me ask you a question. If, tomorrow, the UN creates a new rule that totally sanctions any Israeli aggression, will you be ok with that?
    Things change, rules too, the UN thought that if both parties followed the rules they could coexist. They were (and still are) violent to each other but the resolutions should represent a way out of this crappy situation : i'm sure there is one on hamas bombing civilians, but there are also 65 others telling israel to cut their colonization policy.

    Why "should" resolutions represent a way out? A resolution is just a bunch of words on a piece of paper, and they're typically written by people who have nothing to do with the situation as it stands at that given point of time.

    If anything, the history of this conflict should tell you that the UN is a complete irrelavancy whose actions have done absolutely nothing to help the situation. Do you think a fucking resolution from 6,000 miles away has any relevancy to the IDF agent gunning down a Palestinian kid in "defense" of his cultural homeland or to the suicide bomber sitting on a bus full of Israeli women and children try to "defend" his? Are you serious?

    There are two ways out of this situation. The first is the arming of one side to the point that they could completely annihilate the other. The second is for both sides to realize that their actions have been deplorable and nothing short of pathetic and to reach an agreement regarding their individual territories and to fiercely defend that agreement.
    Maybe, but the people of the palestinian nation were living were the colon town of _______ now rests, and were kicked out to make room for other people. This is how you make a nation disappear. And why should that one in particular go away?

    Why should a nation "go away"? I don't know how to answer that question. However, nations do go away. Nations are dynamic collections of people subjected to power struggles from within and without. They grow, they shrink. They change. You can either accept that fact and seek to protect your people and your culture during those changes, or you can cling on to some point in history and foolishly pretend that it is different from every other point in history.
    Ok, these people have nowhere else to live legally and peacefully.

    I'm sorry, but the words "legally" and "peacefully" are pretty tough concepts to apply to this population. We're talking about a society that, in and of itself, is very fractured. It is one that has been at war with itself and others for quite some time, and has never been able to construct consistent institutions that could actually form, for them, the concept of "legal". This is not to suggest that Palestinian failures are entirely the fault of Palestinians. They are simply partly at fault, and much blame also lies with the Israelis.

    Palestinians who wish for law and order and peace would be wise to go elsewhere. Contrary to popular belief, Palestine has a northern, eastern, and southern border. Many good people are testing those borders now and are seeking good lives elsewhere. Surrounding arab nations and western nations would be wise to put their money where their mouths are and help these people find safe havens.

    Israel has every right to protect itself and its borders. However, they have no right to aggressively expand those borders in the name of "peace". Israel needs to stop pushing beyond its territory. The need to wait out as best they can the implosion that is happening within Palestinian society until some kind of unified leadership emerges from this chaos.
  • Yeah, that pretty much goes both ways.

    You can either sit there and fan the fire, or you can stop buying into the bullshit of one side or the other.

    Regardless...Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes, then hands out guns to racists nuts that they place in those new homes of which they build on stolen land.

    It's a bit of a lopsided equation, on where the anger is coming from imo.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
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