Bush takes anti-Iran push to Saudis

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  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    meme wrote:
    And not anywhere close to the President. "free speech zone" anyone?
    exactly

    ANd they spent $10-12 million keeping areas protest free zones.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Commy wrote:
    Not during the republican primaries or during the presidential elections when it matters most.
    I admit I dont know the rules about this... but what the rules should be is an entirely different discussion.

    Commy wrote:
    what now?

    do you feel that any of the american presidential candidates are at risk of death when they are campaigning? comparatively to say Iranian, pakistani, egyptian candidates during their campaigns.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I agree with this. but there still is that part inside me that says its morally wrong to not allow people to live in freedom. freedom is something that is very rare in the middle east.
    ...
    I'm on the same page. I support the right of the individual... but, I also support the constraints of living within a society. This is why I support the woman's right to choose... the freedom of religion (including the freedom FROM religion) and other facets that keeps us from becoming a (Christian) theocracy.
    Regarding the Middle East... The question we have to ask is... how do we know? How do we know what they want? Maybe a Theocracy works for them. Maybe they like it. Maybe they feel fulfilled and closer to God in a Theocracy, rather than a Democracy.
    My guess... if you give them the freedom to choose... they will choose a Theocracy. Look at Afghanistan. We claim democracy this and freedom that... yet, it is punishible by death to convert from Islam. That is the law they chose. I have a feeling that Iraq's Democracy will choose similar fundamentalist Islamic laws as law of the land. The Shi'ite majority seems to like that kind of shit.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    Looks like this happened...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/01/12/wbush412.xml

    meddle meddle meddle...

    they hate us for our freedoms...

    *cough* religious war...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    I'm on the same page. I support the right of the individual... but, I also support the constraints of living within a society. This is why I support the woman's right to choose... the freedom of religion (including the freedom FROM religion) and other facets that keeps us from becoming a (Christian) theocracy.
    cool

    Cosmo wrote:
    Regarding the Middle East... The question we have to ask is... how do we know? How do we know what they want? Maybe a Theocracy works for them. Maybe they like it. Maybe they feel fulfilled and closer to God in a Theocracy, rather than a Democracy.
    My guess... if you give them the freedom to choose... they will choose a Theocracy. Look at Afghanistan. We claim democracy this and freedom that... yet, it is punishible by death to convert from Islam. That is the law they chose. I have a feeling that Iraq's Democracy will choose similar fundamentalist Islamic laws as law of the land. The Shi'ite majority seems to like that kind of shit.

    you and I both agree that basic individual freedom is the right thing to do. just because you are accepting the fact they are choose not to allow it, doesnt make it ok. they are brainwashed to think like that.
  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I admit I dont know the rules about this... but what the rules should be is an entirely different discussion.

    During times of importance...war, elections, that is when our right to free speech is MOST important. That is when there should be no restrictions on this principle of our democracy. That is when freedom is needed more than ever, to remind this government that they serve us, they are there because WE put them there, and to show them that as a group, the people of the United States are stronger than any corporation, stronger than any security force, stronger than any army.

    The next time I hear about a no-protest zone in a march I'm heading straight for it, and with enough protesters we will show them who is in charge.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Commy wrote:
    During times of importance...war, elections, that is when our right to free speech is MOST important. That is when there should be no restrictions on this principle of our democracy. That is when freedom is needed more than ever, to remind this government that they serve us, they are there because WE put them there, and to show them that as a group, the people of the United States are stronger than any corporation, stronger than any security force, stronger than any army.

    The next time I hear about a no-protest zone in a march I'm heading straight for it, and with enough protesters we will show them who is in charge.

    do you know the exact laws as it pertains to protesting during the times you mentioned?
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    polaris wrote:
    agree to disagree

    maybe you should read up on it ... ever ask yourself why the US took out Mossadegh in Iran?, Roldos in Ecuador?, Allende in Chile?, Torrijos in Panama? ... all democratically elected leaders and then replaced them with right wing dictators??

    answer that question

    answer these questions and you will see the reason why there are wars fought all around this world mostly in developing countries ...

    in many of these places - they HAD freedom and the US took it away ...
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    polaris wrote:
    answer these questions and you will see the reason why there are wars fought all around this world mostly in developing countries ...

    in many of these places - they HAD freedom and the US took it away ...

    next your going to tell me saddam was a democratically elected president.....and the taliban too?
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    jlew24asu wrote:
    next your going to tell me saddam was a democratically elected president.....and the taliban too?

    are you gonna answer the question?
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    polaris wrote:
    agree to disagree

    maybe you should read up on it ... ever ask yourself why the US took out Mossadegh in Iran?


    the UK did that one. The United States was led to believe by the British that Mossadegh was increasingly turning towards communism and was moving Iran towards the Soviet sphere at a time of high Cold War fears

    polaris wrote:
    Roldos in Ecuador?

    He died in an airplane crash later in 1981 (no it was not shot down by the US)

    polaris wrote:
    Allende in Chile?
    hmmmm a maxists leader. here's a winner.

    in 1973 General Carlos Prats was made Minister of Defense but this decision proved so unpopular with the military that, on August 22, he was forced to resign. in September 1973, the Chilean military staged a coup against Allende.

    US did this how exactly?

    polaris wrote:
    Torrijos in Panama?

    General Torrijos died with several others when his aircraft exploded during its flight.

    on a side note, Torrijos was extremely intolerant of political opposition. Many opponents were imprisoned, exiled, killed, or "disappeared".

    what a nice guy.
    polaris wrote:
    answer that question

    anything else?

    polaris wrote:
    ... all democratically elected leaders and then replaced them with right wing dictators??
    its fun making shit up in yoru own head to fit your agenda eh?
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    jlew24asu wrote:
    the UK did that one. The United States was led to believe by the British that Mossadegh was increasingly turning towards communism and was moving Iran towards the Soviet sphere at a time of high Cold War fears




    He died in an airplane crash later in 1981 (no it was not shot down by the US)


    hmmmm a maxists leader. here's a winner.

    in 1973 General Carlos Prats was made Minister of Defense but this decision proved so unpopular with the military that, on August 22, he was forced to resign. in September 1973, the Chilean military staged a coup against Allende.

    US did this how exactly?




    General Torrijos died with several others when his aircraft exploded during its flight.

    on a side note, Torrijos was extremely intolerant of political opposition. Many opponents were imprisoned, exiled, killed, or "disappeared".

    what a nice guy.



    anything else?


    its fun making shit up in yoru own head to fit your agenda eh?

    really dude - you keep accusing me of making stuff up - but when i call you on it - you never back it up ... sad ...

    anyways the US knew mossadegh was not a communist - he even specifically went to the liberty bell after he gave a speech in the UN to proclaim his admiration for the US ...

    roldos, torrijos and allende were all cia coups ... this is widely known ... what they all had in common was that they all wanted to use their resources for their own people ... all replaced by right wing dictators except for torrijos - who was replace by noriega and when noriega refused to comply to us pressure - the US invaded panama and killed thousands of innocent civilians ... these are the reasons why the US is hated everywhere ...
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    polaris wrote:
    really dude - you keep accusing me of making stuff up - but when i call you on it - you never back it up ... sad ...

    anyways the US knew mossadegh was not a communist - he even specifically went to the liberty bell after he gave a speech in the UN to proclaim his admiration for the US ...

    roldos, torrijos and allende were all cia coups ... this is widely known ... what they all had in common was that they all wanted to use their resources for their own people ... all replaced by right wing dictators except for torrijos - who was replace by noriega and when noriega refused to comply to us pressure - the US invaded panama and killed thousands of innocent civilians ... these are the reasons why the US is hated everywhere ...

    I never back it up????

    this is your backup.....

    polaris wrote:
    this is widely known
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I never back it up????

    this is your backup.....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossadegh

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Torrijos - read the part on his death, roldos is in there too ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

    US intervention in Chilean politics and support to Allende's opposition has been recognized, especially with the declassification in 1998 of documents concerning the Project FUBELT operations, although its exact nature is still controversial. General Augusto Pinochet took over and established an anti-communist military dictatorship which lasted until 1990.

    you don't have to believe wikipedia - but it's fairly obvious its not some theory made up on the spot ...
  • MrBrian
    MrBrian Posts: 2,672
    On iran.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=AtgoxuVPcwY
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    jlew24asu wrote:
    ... you and I both agree that basic individual freedom is the right thing to do. just because you are accepting the fact they are choose not to allow it, doesnt make it ok. they are brainwashed to think like that.
    ...
    I'm not saying it's okay or not. It is relative. I am not accepting that it is right... I'm simply stating that that's the way it is.
    Just like religion or history... it all depends on where you stand. Example; I'm pretty sure history books in Saudi Arabia tell a completely different story regarding the crusades than the history books in Western classrooms. Both may describe actual events in the factual light, but the end message comes out differently.
    So, I don't know if they are being 'brainwashed'. If that were the case, we are being brainwashed into thinking our way is the best way.
    If we really wanted to solve this... I think we should SHOW them that we are NOT decadent monsters who are puppets to Israel. We can start by telling Israel they are being assholes when they are being assholes and quit making up excuses for their actions. We can still support Israel when they are right... we need to quit sucking their asses when they are wrong.
    We should also help the people of the Middle East by giving them what they want... not what their Monarchs and dictators want. Help them build mosques and schools instead of more Westernized businesses.
    Maybe if they saw that we are descent people who care... they would question that whole 'Great Satan/Death To America' bullshit they are being fed. I'd rather see my foriegn aid tax dollars spent on building materials for a mosques than going into the already rich coffers of the House of Saud.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    MrBrian wrote:
    On iran.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=AtgoxuVPcwY

    and this is happening all over the world ... only when people realize who really is driving decisions - can we move past it ...
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    MrBrian wrote:
    On iran.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=AtgoxuVPcwY

    From 1987...nice find...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")

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