yeah, I don't get the whole, "yeah, but the 9/11 bombers were all from Saudi Arabia" argument, either.
I don't care where they are from. I don't care if they're from Canada, or New Zealand or flippin' Toledo, Ohio.
Who funded them? Who trained them? Who ordered them?
It wasn't Saudi Arabia. It was OBL, acting as a proxy for the Taliban.
But the Saudi education system helped to create them. The common people of Saudi Arabia are poor and without hope of things getting better. They grow up learning Wahhabism Islam and are taught to hate the west and that the west are responsible for all of their problems.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
its not just the bush family. its every government that has been in place over the past 50 years. saudi is our largest oil supplier. then allow us to put troops in their country. being enemies with them serves no purpose. I would assume it would create even more extremism much like what is happening in parts of Iraq.
I just dont get it. you (and many others) bitch when we are enemies with someone (like saddam) and bitch when we are friends with someone (like saudi)
But the Saudi education system helped to create them. The common people of Saudi Arabia are poor and without hope of things getting better. They grow up learning Wahhabism Islam and are taught to hate the west and that the west are responsible for all of their problems.
your both right. but isn't kind sad? does any other religion develop such hatred over "our presence" ? we showed up there to protect them from saddam in the first place.
I think the root of the problem lies in the extreme interpretation of the koran.
he went to talk peace between Israel/Palastine. he sees Iran as a source of problems for the middle east.
...
While the people of the Middle East sees the United States as the source of the problem.
...
Granted... we all know we need the fucking oil. Fine. How about we just buy the fucking shit from them and quit trying to form their domestic policies?
I mean, Japan buys fucking oil from the Middle East... why aren't JAL Airliners being flown into Tokyo office buildings?
Answer: Japan is just buying the fucking oil from them and not trying to form their domestic policies.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
your both right. but isn't kind sad? does any other religion develop such hatred over "our presence" ? we showed up there to protect them from saddam in the first place.
I think the root of the problem lies in the extreme interpretation of the koran.
The presence part might have something to do with raining bombs all over their capital as nice warm hello.
Not exactly your average "were here to help you" mentality. I think some people were slightly confused to put it lightly.
Let's see....they're here to help us, but their blowing the living sh*t out of us.
I can see how the Koran plays in now....hehe
honestly...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Honestly, the things people say on here as if they're "well-known" facts never fail to astound me.
f-ing straight up...
edit: I thought I was the only one to notice this
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
The presence part might have something to do with raining bombs all over their capital as nice warm hello.
Not exactly your average "were here to help you" mentality. I think some people were slightly confused to put it lightly.
Let's see....they're here to help us, but their blowing the living sh*t out of us.
I can see how the Koran plays in now....hehe
honestly...
you make it sound like we have been carpeting bombing the place daily for 5 years. after the first day, air bombings rarely took place expect for very specific targets. but good job making up your own reality to fit your agenda.
you make it sound like we have been carpeting bombing the place daily for 5 years. after the first day, air bombings rarely took place expect for very specific targets. but good job making up your own reality to fit your agenda.
Shock and Awe is what left that loving first impression.
I mean the nerve of those awful Iraqi's to not enjoy all that explosive love.
ungrateful humans they are.....sigh...
blow up their city, and they get pissed for some reason...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
you make it sound like we have been carpeting bombing the place daily for 5 years. after the first day, air bombings rarely took place expect for very specific targets. but good job making up your own reality to fit your agenda.
and you make it sound as if all we did was bomb the place for 2 weeks and spend the rest of the time "helping" the Iraqis... in fact, you said it:
the mission was to remove saddam and the baath party. that took all of 2 weeks? we stayed to help rebuild the country and fight any foreign elements.
Jlew, I suggest you do some reading... particularly this article: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070730/hedges
It's a bit long, but it'll do you some good. It was written by my friend's sister and it'll help tell the real story of what goes on in Iraq.
Uhh... I have several friends who have been raised and gone to school in Saudi who can say otherwise.
and you make it sound as if all we did was bomb the place for 2 weeks and spend the rest of the time "helping" the Iraqis... in fact, you said it:
Jlew, I suggest you do some reading... particularly this article: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070730/hedges
It's a bit long, but it'll do you some good. It was written by my friend's sister and it'll help tell the real story of what goes on in Iraq.
Looks like a great article but I couldn't get passed the story about the asshole shooting the family's dog. Dont need to get more upset from the harder stories I'm sure are in there. If I witnessed my dog get shot in the face by some occuping soldier, I would be out the next day setting up roadside bombs and IEDs. Hearts and minds right? Fuck this war.
and you make it sound as if all we did was bomb the place for 2 weeks and spend the rest of the time "helping" the Iraqis... in fact, you said it:
no, we spent alot of the time fighting el queda and Iraqis loyal to saddam. but there are many times when we actually helped Iraqis. you choose to only see one side.
Jlew, I suggest you do some reading... particularly this article: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070730/hedges
It's a bit long, but it'll do you some good. It was written by my friend's sister and it'll help tell the real story of what goes on in Iraq.
war is horrible. no question about it but you fail to see anything positive coming out of the Iraq situation. the invasion cant be taken back but positive things are happening. (along with man horrible horrible things)
I'm not going to google a bunch of links but its out there if you choose to look.
it's interesting the discussion about iraq and saudi arabia ... iraq is where its at now for one simple reason ... saddam refused to sign the same kind of deals the house of Saud did ... saddam didn't want to give petrodollars to the US to be used for big contracting companies such as halliburton and bechtel ... so, a month after the US invaded Panama and killed thousands of innocent people they went into iraq on a double cross from the US ...
Iraq is the jewel of the middle east as far as the global empire is concerned - it's geographic position and access to both oil and water make it extremely valuable - there is no way the US was going to let Saddam control it ...
if Saddam was prepared to accept the same conditions as the house of Saud - there would be no talk of bringing democracy and helping the iraqis - that bs propaganda doesn't fly anywhere but in parts of the US ... we'd be turning a blind eye to saddam's atrocities just as we do in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Colombia, etc ...
if Saddam was prepared to accept the same conditions as the house of Saud - there would be no talk of bringing democracy and helping the iraqis - that bs propaganda doesn't fly anywhere but in parts of the US ... we'd be turning a blind eye to saddam's atrocities just as we do in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Colombia, etc ...
no country (besides maybe north korea) come close to the atrocities of saddam. although there is probably is some truth in what you say, that fact needs to be pointed out.
no country (besides maybe north korea) come close to the atrocities of saddam. although there is probably is some truth in what you say, that fact needs to be pointed out.
there are way worse countries in this world - you just don't hear about them because the world really doesn't care unless there is something to be gained from it ...
it's all about greed ... just look at cheney ... the guy was secretary of defense when they massacred the panamanians and then went to iraq ... clinton takes over and he goes to work for halliburton and now he's back and here we are again - fighting wars ... all a coincidence?
no country (besides maybe north korea) come close to the atrocities of saddam. although there is probably is some truth in what you say, that fact needs to be pointed out.
Which America supported until he stopped playing ball with them.
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
there are way worse countries in this world - you just don't hear about them because the world really doesn't care unless there is something to be gained from it ...
such as? and as much as you want to blame greed, the need for oil and the value of that particular commodity is vital to the world economy. it just is.
it's all about greed ... just look at cheney ... the guy was secretary of defense when they massacred the panamanians and then went to iraq ... clinton takes over and he goes to work for halliburton and now he's back and here we are again - fighting wars ... all a coincidence?
had 9/11 not happened who knows. but I do think the Iraq war would have happened regardless....sadly.
saddam became more of a genocidal maniac well after we supported him.
Can you provide some actual proof of that?
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
such as? and as much as you want to blame greed, the need for oil and the value of that particular commodity is vital to the world economy. it just is.
pretty much every country in africa ... look up the moi years in kenya, mugabe in zimbabwe, etc ... africa is forever screwed as they have been crippled by the world bank and IMF ... loans they can never hope to repay ... aid that comes in the forms of contracts for foreign companies ...
oil is only vital in so much as you let oil dictate your economy ... your leaders are indebted to oil and so they feed it to you like a drug dealer ... as much as Carter had problems during his admin - he knew it would be best to ween america off oil ... he had solar panels installed at the white house ... then reagan (the ultimate puppet leader) took over and that was it ...
Right and you do know that more Iraqi's died because of the bombing and sanctions that were impossed by the US and it's followers after the Kuwait invasion than Saddam actually killed don't you.
I'm not saying saddam was a nice guy but i think you need to try to get things in history in perspective.
Because i am having a real hard time trying to figure out how you think killing more innocent Iraqi people than saddam ever killed makes everything right.
In my book that is far worse.
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
You know what is both funny and painful at the same time? Saddam Hussein was there to stop the advancement of Iranian influence in the region. He pretty much held Iran in check until we decided that all of a sudden... his 30 year reign of oppression (that we had previously embraced and supported... or simply turned a blind eye to) should end. There's a reason WHY the Saudis (and other Arab coalition countries in the region) didn't want to go into Iraq in 1991 and take part in the coalition of the bribed in 2003. They tolerated Hussein as the gatekeeper and buffer zone from minority Shi'ite/Persian scum from their borders.
So, the funny/painful part is by removing Hussein, we've empowered Iran. We've opened the floodgates that the Ayatollah Khomeini could only dream of doing. The secular tyrant, with his Western supported decadent oppulance, standing in the doorway to the Islamic Revolution for the 60% Shi'ite populous of Iraq was taken out by the 'Great Satan' (the United States), himself. Talk about fucking irony.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
You know what is both funny and painful at the same time? Saddam Hussein was there to stop the advancement of Iranian influence in the region. He pretty much held Iran in check until we decided that all of a sudden... his 30 year reign of oppression (that we had previously embraced and supported... or simply turned a blind eye to) should end. There's a reason WHY the Saudis (and other Arab coalition countries in the region) didn't want to go into Iraq in 1991 and take part in the coalition of the bribed in 2003. They tolerated Hussein as the gatekeeper and buffer zone from minority Shi'ite/Persian scum from their borders.
So, the funny/painful part is by removing Hussein, we've empowered Iran. We've opened the floodgates that the Ayatollah Khomeini could only dream of doing. The secular tyrant, with his Western supported decadent oppulance, standing in the doorway to the Islamic Revolution for the 60% Shi'ite populous of Iraq was taken out by the 'Great Satan' (the United States), himself. Talk about fucking irony.
well ... iran may not be a problem if they didn't despose of mossadegh ... so, really, everything always circles back to US imperialism/foreign policy ...
well ... iran may not be a problem if they didn't despose of mossadegh ... so, really, everything always circles back to US imperialism/foreign policy ...
...
Anyone who really believes the 'Terrorists' hate us because of our 'freedom' is dillusional. They hate us because of our (Western Civilizations) constant meddling in their internal affairs. It's what we DO... not who we are.
Had our foriegn policy been structured to benefit THEIR best interests, instead of ours... I believe they wouldn't have flown those planes into our buildings.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Anyone who really believes the 'Terrorists' hate us because of our 'freedom' is dillusional. They hate us because of our (Western Civilizations) constant meddling in their internal affairs. It's what we DO... not who we are.
Had our foriegn policy been structured to benefit THEIR best interests, instead of ours... I believe they wouldn't have flown those planes into our buildings.
exactly ... but everytime you mention this - people then say you think america "deserved" to be attacked and that you are a sick person ...
they never consider what america has done in the name of corporate interests
...
Anyone who really believes the 'Terrorists' hate us because of our 'freedom' is dillusional. They hate us because of our (Western Civilizations) constant meddling in their internal affairs. It's what we DO... not who we are.
Had our foriegn policy been structured to benefit THEIR best interests, instead of ours... I believe they wouldn't have flown those planes into our buildings.
ok so did we deserve being attacked? is there a sect of extreme Islam that believes all non-believers should be killed? any particular reason why some riot in the streets when someone draws a cartoon of Mohammad?
you say they dont hate us because of our freedoms but it would make sense for those extremist leaders too do exactly that. freedom would mean less power and control. those sheiks and dictators hate freedom.
but their is some truth in what you say, expect you left out support for Israel. that is another reason why they hate us.
Comments
aight... I see...
But the Saudi education system helped to create them. The common people of Saudi Arabia are poor and without hope of things getting better. They grow up learning Wahhabism Islam and are taught to hate the west and that the west are responsible for all of their problems.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
What's causing extremisim is our presense.
your both right. but isn't kind sad? does any other religion develop such hatred over "our presence" ? we showed up there to protect them from saddam in the first place.
I think the root of the problem lies in the extreme interpretation of the koran.
While the people of the Middle East sees the United States as the source of the problem.
...
Granted... we all know we need the fucking oil. Fine. How about we just buy the fucking shit from them and quit trying to form their domestic policies?
I mean, Japan buys fucking oil from the Middle East... why aren't JAL Airliners being flown into Tokyo office buildings?
Answer: Japan is just buying the fucking oil from them and not trying to form their domestic policies.
Hail, Hail!!!
The presence part might have something to do with raining bombs all over their capital as nice warm hello.
Not exactly your average "were here to help you" mentality. I think some people were slightly confused to put it lightly.
Let's see....they're here to help us, but their blowing the living sh*t out of us.
I can see how the Koran plays in now....hehe
honestly...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Who the fuck made that a fact, all of a sudden? US Media? The government? Or are they one in the same?
Honestly, the things people say on here as if they're "well-known" facts never fail to astound me.
f-ing straight up...
edit: I thought I was the only one to notice this
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
you make it sound like we have been carpeting bombing the place daily for 5 years. after the first day, air bombings rarely took place expect for very specific targets. but good job making up your own reality to fit your agenda.
um those are well known facts. do some research
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/analyses/wahhabism.html
Shock and Awe is what left that loving first impression.
I mean the nerve of those awful Iraqi's to not enjoy all that explosive love.
ungrateful humans they are.....sigh...
blow up their city, and they get pissed for some reason...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Uhh... I have several friends who have been raised and gone to school in Saudi who can say otherwise.
and you make it sound as if all we did was bomb the place for 2 weeks and spend the rest of the time "helping" the Iraqis... in fact, you said it:
Jlew, I suggest you do some reading... particularly this article: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070730/hedges
It's a bit long, but it'll do you some good. It was written by my friend's sister and it'll help tell the real story of what goes on in Iraq.
Looks like a great article but I couldn't get passed the story about the asshole shooting the family's dog. Dont need to get more upset from the harder stories I'm sure are in there. If I witnessed my dog get shot in the face by some occuping soldier, I would be out the next day setting up roadside bombs and IEDs. Hearts and minds right? Fuck this war.
no, we spent alot of the time fighting el queda and Iraqis loyal to saddam. but there are many times when we actually helped Iraqis. you choose to only see one side.
war is horrible. no question about it but you fail to see anything positive coming out of the Iraq situation. the invasion cant be taken back but positive things are happening. (along with man horrible horrible things)
I'm not going to google a bunch of links but its out there if you choose to look.
Iraq is the jewel of the middle east as far as the global empire is concerned - it's geographic position and access to both oil and water make it extremely valuable - there is no way the US was going to let Saddam control it ...
if Saddam was prepared to accept the same conditions as the house of Saud - there would be no talk of bringing democracy and helping the iraqis - that bs propaganda doesn't fly anywhere but in parts of the US ... we'd be turning a blind eye to saddam's atrocities just as we do in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Colombia, etc ...
no country (besides maybe north korea) come close to the atrocities of saddam. although there is probably is some truth in what you say, that fact needs to be pointed out.
there are way worse countries in this world - you just don't hear about them because the world really doesn't care unless there is something to be gained from it ...
it's all about greed ... just look at cheney ... the guy was secretary of defense when they massacred the panamanians and then went to iraq ... clinton takes over and he goes to work for halliburton and now he's back and here we are again - fighting wars ... all a coincidence?
Which America supported until he stopped playing ball with them.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
had 9/11 not happened who knows. but I do think the Iraq war would have happened regardless....sadly.
saddam became more of a genocidal maniac well after we supported him.
Can you provide some actual proof of that?
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
pretty much every country in africa ... look up the moi years in kenya, mugabe in zimbabwe, etc ... africa is forever screwed as they have been crippled by the world bank and IMF ... loans they can never hope to repay ... aid that comes in the forms of contracts for foreign companies ...
oil is only vital in so much as you let oil dictate your economy ... your leaders are indebted to oil and so they feed it to you like a drug dealer ... as much as Carter had problems during his admin - he knew it would be best to ween america off oil ... he had solar panels installed at the white house ... then reagan (the ultimate puppet leader) took over and that was it ...
you're probably right there ... which is truly sad ...
gasing of the kurds? kuwait invasion? look it up
Right and you do know that more Iraqi's died because of the bombing and sanctions that were impossed by the US and it's followers after the Kuwait invasion than Saddam actually killed don't you.
I'm not saying saddam was a nice guy but i think you need to try to get things in history in perspective.
Because i am having a real hard time trying to figure out how you think killing more innocent Iraqi people than saddam ever killed makes everything right.
In my book that is far worse.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
Hopefully they will be swayed by the human rights violations argument :rolleyes:
So, the funny/painful part is by removing Hussein, we've empowered Iran. We've opened the floodgates that the Ayatollah Khomeini could only dream of doing. The secular tyrant, with his Western supported decadent oppulance, standing in the doorway to the Islamic Revolution for the 60% Shi'ite populous of Iraq was taken out by the 'Great Satan' (the United States), himself. Talk about fucking irony.
Hail, Hail!!!
well ... iran may not be a problem if they didn't despose of mossadegh ... so, really, everything always circles back to US imperialism/foreign policy ...
Anyone who really believes the 'Terrorists' hate us because of our 'freedom' is dillusional. They hate us because of our (Western Civilizations) constant meddling in their internal affairs. It's what we DO... not who we are.
Had our foriegn policy been structured to benefit THEIR best interests, instead of ours... I believe they wouldn't have flown those planes into our buildings.
Hail, Hail!!!
exactly ... but everytime you mention this - people then say you think america "deserved" to be attacked and that you are a sick person ...
they never consider what america has done in the name of corporate interests
ok so did we deserve being attacked? is there a sect of extreme Islam that believes all non-believers should be killed? any particular reason why some riot in the streets when someone draws a cartoon of Mohammad?
you say they dont hate us because of our freedoms but it would make sense for those extremist leaders too do exactly that. freedom would mean less power and control. those sheiks and dictators hate freedom.
but their is some truth in what you say, expect you left out support for Israel. that is another reason why they hate us.