ok so did we deserve being attacked? is there a sect of extreme Islam that believes all non-believers should be killed? any particular reason why some riot in the streets when someone draws a cartoon of Mohammad?
you say they dont hate us because of our freedoms but it would make sense for those extremist leaders too do exactly that. freedom would mean less power and control. those sheiks and dictators hate freedom.
but their is some truth in what you say, expect you left out support for Israel. that is another reason why they hate us.
no one deserves to die especially innocent civilians ... isn't america the country that burned dixie chicks cds cuz of a comment made at a rock concert? ...
the hate us for our freedoms is just bs propaganda the global elite wants people to believe - they aren't gonna say - hey, look - we want to saddle this country with massive debt so they will forever be slaves to our economic goals ... they have to make up shit people will buy ...
but you're right - the US unilateral support for israel is not thought of favourably amongst muslim nations ...
no one deserves to die especially innocent civilians ... isn't america the country that burned dixie chicks cds cuz of a comment made at a rock concert? ...
the hate us for our freedoms is just bs propaganda the global elite wants people to believe - they aren't gonna say - hey, look - we want to saddle this country with massive debt so they will forever be slaves to our economic goals ... they have to make up shit people will buy ...
but you're right - the US unilateral support for israel is not thought of favourably amongst muslim nations ...
see you still dont get it. extremist leaders do hate our freedoms. maybe not enough to attack us, but the hate is there.
at least you arent blaming america. but you love those fun internet buzz words like "global elite". i mean what the fuck is that.
see you still dont get it. extremist leaders do hate our freedoms. maybe not enough to attack us, but the hate is there.
at least you arent blaming america. but you love those fun internet buzz words like "global elite". i mean what the fuck is that.
agree to disagree
maybe you should read up on it ... ever ask yourself why the US took out Mossadegh in Iran?, Roldos in Ecuador?, Allende in Chile?, Torrijos in Panama? ... all democratically elected leaders and then replaced them with right wing dictators??
ok so did we deserve being attacked? is there a sect of extreme Islam that believes all non-believers should be killed? any particular reason why some riot in the streets when someone draws a cartoon of Mohammad?
you say they dont hate us because of our freedoms but it would make sense for those extremist leaders too do exactly that. freedom would mean less power and control. those sheiks and dictators hate freedom.
but their is some truth in what you say, expect you left out support for Israel. that is another reason why they hate us.
...
Did Iraqis deserve to be attacked because we got attacked? We are not the good guys in white hats anymore. We have lowered our standards to theirs.
...
And that 'Hate us because of our freedom' is a moronic sales pitch that only morons will buy into. You cannot seriously believe that Usama bin Laden hates our Bill of Rights more than our military troops stationed in his homeland.
Shieks and dictators don't hate freedom... they crave power. People can be coerced into relinquishing their freedoms and civil liberties in exchange for many things. We, in the U.S., are willingly caving in on our own civil liberties because we are letting our fears take over. Shieks and dictators use religion... presidents and attorney generals use fear. They don't hate freedom... they just want to be the sole source of decision making.
...
And yes... it would help our cause if we looked at Israel in a realistic light... instead of having our noses planted straight in their assholes. We'd be able to tell them when the things they are doing that are wrong... are WRONG.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Did Iraqis deserve to be attacked because we got attacked? We are not the good guys in white hats anymore. We have lowered our standards to theirs.
And that 'Hate us because of our freedom' is a moronic sales pitch that only morons will buy into. You cannot seriously believe that Usama bin Laden hates our Bill of Rights more than our military troops stationed in his homeland.
not so much bin laden himself. I'm talking about the ideology
Shieks and dictators don't hate freedom... they crave power. People can be coerced into relinquishing their freedoms and civil liberties in exchange for many things. We, in the U.S., are willingly caving in on our own civil liberties because we are letting our fears take over. Shieks and dictators use religion... presidents and attorney generals use fear. They don't hate freedom... they just want to be the sole source of decision making.
that makes no sense. with freedom given to the people, they have no power.
... that makes no sense. with freedom given to the people, they have no power.
...
Okay then... who hates our freedom? And what freedoms do we have that they hate? A hatred so intense... that they are willing to die, crashing planes into us at work. What freedom do we possess that drives them to that extreme?
It's NOT just their leaders who hate us... it's regular people. And they don't hate you or me personally... they hate us collectively because of things that our country does in our names.
...
What doesn't make sense is people believing that they hate us because of... what?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Okay then... who hates our freedom? And what freedoms do we have that they hate? A hatred so intense... that they are willing to die, crashing planes into us at work. What freedom do we possess that drives them to that extreme?
It's NOT just their leaders who hate us... it's regular people. And they don't hate you or me personally... they hate us collectively because of things that our country does in our names.
...
What doesn't make sense is people believing that they hate us because of... what?
the avg ignorant american response to that question you ask would be--- they killed themselves to get virgins.
---
Cosmo, it's so much easier than all that "foreign policy" stuff you keep talking about.
---
the avg ignorant american response to that question you ask would be--- they killed themselves to get virgins.
---
Cosmo, it's so much easier than all that "foreign policy" stuff you keep talking about.
---
...
Yeah... I don't understand how come it is so hard to figure. All you have to do is imagine what it would be like if the shoe was on the other foot... the gun in the other hand... and what you would do.
If... the U.S. was being influenced to change towards a more Fundamentalist Islamic ideology for 6 decades... having to fulfill all of the tennents of Islam... obey religious law... all that religious crap. Tell me that their way was the right way to my happiness. I'd rebel. And I'd probably try to figure out how to go over there and blow up that big square thing in Mecca they all walk around during Ramadan so they'd leave us to decide what we want. Or... I'd at least cheer when some other Americans go over there and blows it up.
I wouldn't hate the Muslims for believing all that Islam stuff... I would hate them for coming all the way across the ocean and cramming that shit down my throat.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Okay then... who hates our freedom? And what freedoms do we have that they hate? A hatred so intense... that they are willing to die, crashing planes into us at work. What freedom do we possess that drives them to that extreme?
It's NOT just their leaders who hate us... it's regular people. And they don't hate you or me personally... they hate us collectively because of things that our country does in our names.
...
What doesn't make sense is people believing that they hate us because of... what?
I'm not saying they hate our freedoms per say. they hate the "western" way of freedom and democracy. there is no religious tolerance, no freedom of speech, no freedom of expression. thats what these extremist leaders hate.
you say they dont hate us because of our freedoms but it would make sense for those extremist leaders too do exactly that. freedom would mean less power and control. those sheiks and dictators hate freedom.
This is the most ego driven idea I have ever even heard come out of someone's mouth, are seen on a forum in this case.
Are you that full of yourself that you believe another human being would actually kill themselves because your life is so great? And you really believe that?
I'm not saying they hate our freedoms per say. they hate the "western" way of freedom and democracy. there is no religious tolerance, no freedom of speech, no freedom of expression. thats what these extremist leaders hate.
...
I agree.
So, the solution should seem simple... quit trying to make them conform to Western Ways. If they CHOOSE to live in their societies under western type democracies, instead of Islamic Religious law, then THEY should be the ones to decide that... not us. We need to QUIT trying to tell them our way is best.
And it's not just extremist leaders. Many of their moderate religious and political leaders, (as well as average Joe's) believe we are a cesspool of decadence. And can you blame them? I mean, look at our worship of money... our pre-occupation of sex. And hell, even the religious ones here only go to church once a week.
But, you know what? That's NOT their call to make. I like porn and sex and I don't give a fuck what any religious needle dick thinks about that. Just as I don't want THEM telling me how to live... I shouldn't be the one to tell them how to live. If they believe I'm going to Hell... fine... they should let me go to Hell. And if they want to adhere to religious tennents... I'm fine with that.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
I agree.
So, the solution should seem simple... quit trying to make them conform to Western Ways. If they CHOOSE to live in their societies under western type democracies, instead of Islamic Religious law, then THEY should be the ones to decide that... not us. We need to QUIT trying to tell them our way is best.
And it's not just extremist leaders. Many of their moderate religious and political leaders, (as well as average Joe's) believe we are a cesspool of decadence. And can you blame them? I mean, look at our worship of money... our pre-occupation of sex. And hell, even the religious ones here only go to church once a week.
But, you know what? That's NOT their call to make. I like porn and sex and I don't give a fuck what any religious needle dick thinks about that. Just as I don't want THEM telling me how to live... I shouldn't be the one to tell them how to live. If they believe I'm going to Hell... fine... they should let me go to Hell. And if they want to adhere to religious tennents... I'm fine with that.
I agree with this. but there still is that part inside me that says its morally wrong to not allow people to live in freedom. freedom is something that is very rare in the middle east.
I agree with this. but there still is that part inside me that says its morally wrong to not allow people to live in freedom. freedom is something that is very rare in the middle east.
Freedom is rare in the United States man what are you talking about.
This is the most ego driven idea I have ever even heard come out of someone's mouth, are seen on a forum in this case.
Are you that full of yourself that you believe another human being would actually kill themselves because your life is so great? And you really believe that?
no, in some cases, these religious extremists brainwash children and adults into believing "western way of life" is evil. and yes there are people willing to die.
I agree with cosmo that our foreign policy has alot to do with why they feel this way. America is not innocent.
no, in some cases, these religious extremists brainwash children and adults into believing "western way of life" is evil. and yes there are people willing to die.
I agree with cosmo that our foreign policy has alot to do with why they feel this way. America is not innocent.
They are no more brainwashed than people in the United States...less so actually. If someone disagrees with gov't they can make them dissappear or torture them, which they do. Here dissidents are allowed a voice, and a stick won't work to silence them. So our opinions are controlled, since force is theoretically illegal.
do you feel that any of the american presidential candidates are at risk of death when they are campaigning? comparatively to say Iranian, pakistani, egyptian candidates during their campaigns.
I agree with this. but there still is that part inside me that says its morally wrong to not allow people to live in freedom. freedom is something that is very rare in the middle east.
...
I'm on the same page. I support the right of the individual... but, I also support the constraints of living within a society. This is why I support the woman's right to choose... the freedom of religion (including the freedom FROM religion) and other facets that keeps us from becoming a (Christian) theocracy.
Regarding the Middle East... The question we have to ask is... how do we know? How do we know what they want? Maybe a Theocracy works for them. Maybe they like it. Maybe they feel fulfilled and closer to God in a Theocracy, rather than a Democracy.
My guess... if you give them the freedom to choose... they will choose a Theocracy. Look at Afghanistan. We claim democracy this and freedom that... yet, it is punishible by death to convert from Islam. That is the law they chose. I have a feeling that Iraq's Democracy will choose similar fundamentalist Islamic laws as law of the land. The Shi'ite majority seems to like that kind of shit.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
...
I'm on the same page. I support the right of the individual... but, I also support the constraints of living within a society. This is why I support the woman's right to choose... the freedom of religion (including the freedom FROM religion) and other facets that keeps us from becoming a (Christian) theocracy.
Regarding the Middle East... The question we have to ask is... how do we know? How do we know what they want? Maybe a Theocracy works for them. Maybe they like it. Maybe they feel fulfilled and closer to God in a Theocracy, rather than a Democracy.
My guess... if you give them the freedom to choose... they will choose a Theocracy. Look at Afghanistan. We claim democracy this and freedom that... yet, it is punishible by death to convert from Islam. That is the law they chose. I have a feeling that Iraq's Democracy will choose similar fundamentalist Islamic laws as law of the land. The Shi'ite majority seems to like that kind of shit.
you and I both agree that basic individual freedom is the right thing to do. just because you are accepting the fact they are choose not to allow it, doesnt make it ok. they are brainwashed to think like that.
I admit I dont know the rules about this... but what the rules should be is an entirely different discussion.
During times of importance...war, elections, that is when our right to free speech is MOST important. That is when there should be no restrictions on this principle of our democracy. That is when freedom is needed more than ever, to remind this government that they serve us, they are there because WE put them there, and to show them that as a group, the people of the United States are stronger than any corporation, stronger than any security force, stronger than any army.
The next time I hear about a no-protest zone in a march I'm heading straight for it, and with enough protesters we will show them who is in charge.
During times of importance...war, elections, that is when our right to free speech is MOST important. That is when there should be no restrictions on this principle of our democracy. That is when freedom is needed more than ever, to remind this government that they serve us, they are there because WE put them there, and to show them that as a group, the people of the United States are stronger than any corporation, stronger than any security force, stronger than any army.
The next time I hear about a no-protest zone in a march I'm heading straight for it, and with enough protesters we will show them who is in charge.
do you know the exact laws as it pertains to protesting during the times you mentioned?
maybe you should read up on it ... ever ask yourself why the US took out Mossadegh in Iran?, Roldos in Ecuador?, Allende in Chile?, Torrijos in Panama? ... all democratically elected leaders and then replaced them with right wing dictators??
answer that question
answer these questions and you will see the reason why there are wars fought all around this world mostly in developing countries ...
in many of these places - they HAD freedom and the US took it away ...
Comments
why is that so difficult to understand?
its not. but people tend to only want to blame america. its kinda trendy nowadays I guess.
no one deserves to die especially innocent civilians ... isn't america the country that burned dixie chicks cds cuz of a comment made at a rock concert? ...
the hate us for our freedoms is just bs propaganda the global elite wants people to believe - they aren't gonna say - hey, look - we want to saddle this country with massive debt so they will forever be slaves to our economic goals ... they have to make up shit people will buy ...
but you're right - the US unilateral support for israel is not thought of favourably amongst muslim nations ...
see you still dont get it. extremist leaders do hate our freedoms. maybe not enough to attack us, but the hate is there.
at least you arent blaming america. but you love those fun internet buzz words like "global elite". i mean what the fuck is that.
agree to disagree
maybe you should read up on it ... ever ask yourself why the US took out Mossadegh in Iran?, Roldos in Ecuador?, Allende in Chile?, Torrijos in Panama? ... all democratically elected leaders and then replaced them with right wing dictators??
answer that question
Did Iraqis deserve to be attacked because we got attacked? We are not the good guys in white hats anymore. We have lowered our standards to theirs.
...
And that 'Hate us because of our freedom' is a moronic sales pitch that only morons will buy into. You cannot seriously believe that Usama bin Laden hates our Bill of Rights more than our military troops stationed in his homeland.
Shieks and dictators don't hate freedom... they crave power. People can be coerced into relinquishing their freedoms and civil liberties in exchange for many things. We, in the U.S., are willingly caving in on our own civil liberties because we are letting our fears take over. Shieks and dictators use religion... presidents and attorney generals use fear. They don't hate freedom... they just want to be the sole source of decision making.
...
And yes... it would help our cause if we looked at Israel in a realistic light... instead of having our noses planted straight in their assholes. We'd be able to tell them when the things they are doing that are wrong... are WRONG.
Hail, Hail!!!
... not so much bin laden himself. I'm talking about the ideology
that makes no sense. with freedom given to the people, they have no power.
Okay then... who hates our freedom? And what freedoms do we have that they hate? A hatred so intense... that they are willing to die, crashing planes into us at work. What freedom do we possess that drives them to that extreme?
It's NOT just their leaders who hate us... it's regular people. And they don't hate you or me personally... they hate us collectively because of things that our country does in our names.
...
What doesn't make sense is people believing that they hate us because of... what?
Hail, Hail!!!
the avg ignorant american response to that question you ask would be--- they killed themselves to get virgins.
---
Cosmo, it's so much easier than all that "foreign policy" stuff you keep talking about.
---
Yeah... I don't understand how come it is so hard to figure. All you have to do is imagine what it would be like if the shoe was on the other foot... the gun in the other hand... and what you would do.
If... the U.S. was being influenced to change towards a more Fundamentalist Islamic ideology for 6 decades... having to fulfill all of the tennents of Islam... obey religious law... all that religious crap. Tell me that their way was the right way to my happiness. I'd rebel. And I'd probably try to figure out how to go over there and blow up that big square thing in Mecca they all walk around during Ramadan so they'd leave us to decide what we want. Or... I'd at least cheer when some other Americans go over there and blows it up.
I wouldn't hate the Muslims for believing all that Islam stuff... I would hate them for coming all the way across the ocean and cramming that shit down my throat.
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm not saying they hate our freedoms per say. they hate the "western" way of freedom and democracy. there is no religious tolerance, no freedom of speech, no freedom of expression. thats what these extremist leaders hate.
This is the most ego driven idea I have ever even heard come out of someone's mouth, are seen on a forum in this case.
Are you that full of yourself that you believe another human being would actually kill themselves because your life is so great? And you really believe that?
I agree.
So, the solution should seem simple... quit trying to make them conform to Western Ways. If they CHOOSE to live in their societies under western type democracies, instead of Islamic Religious law, then THEY should be the ones to decide that... not us. We need to QUIT trying to tell them our way is best.
And it's not just extremist leaders. Many of their moderate religious and political leaders, (as well as average Joe's) believe we are a cesspool of decadence. And can you blame them? I mean, look at our worship of money... our pre-occupation of sex. And hell, even the religious ones here only go to church once a week.
But, you know what? That's NOT their call to make. I like porn and sex and I don't give a fuck what any religious needle dick thinks about that. Just as I don't want THEM telling me how to live... I shouldn't be the one to tell them how to live. If they believe I'm going to Hell... fine... they should let me go to Hell. And if they want to adhere to religious tennents... I'm fine with that.
Hail, Hail!!!
I agree with this. but there still is that part inside me that says its morally wrong to not allow people to live in freedom. freedom is something that is very rare in the middle east.
no, in some cases, these religious extremists brainwash children and adults into believing "western way of life" is evil. and yes there are people willing to die.
I agree with cosmo that our foreign policy has alot to do with why they feel this way. America is not innocent.
anwser me this.
can I stand in the dead center of downtown chicago, or new york, or washington dc and do this??
http://www.javno.com/slike/slike_3/r1/g2007/m01/x31130790993398898.jpg
I think we all just saw when you lobby for freedom and democracy in pakistan right?
what now?
And not anywhere close to the President. "free speech zone" anyone?
ANd they spent $10-12 million keeping areas protest free zones.
do you feel that any of the american presidential candidates are at risk of death when they are campaigning? comparatively to say Iranian, pakistani, egyptian candidates during their campaigns.
I'm on the same page. I support the right of the individual... but, I also support the constraints of living within a society. This is why I support the woman's right to choose... the freedom of religion (including the freedom FROM religion) and other facets that keeps us from becoming a (Christian) theocracy.
Regarding the Middle East... The question we have to ask is... how do we know? How do we know what they want? Maybe a Theocracy works for them. Maybe they like it. Maybe they feel fulfilled and closer to God in a Theocracy, rather than a Democracy.
My guess... if you give them the freedom to choose... they will choose a Theocracy. Look at Afghanistan. We claim democracy this and freedom that... yet, it is punishible by death to convert from Islam. That is the law they chose. I have a feeling that Iraq's Democracy will choose similar fundamentalist Islamic laws as law of the land. The Shi'ite majority seems to like that kind of shit.
Hail, Hail!!!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/01/12/wbush412.xml
meddle meddle meddle...
they hate us for our freedoms...
*cough* religious war...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
you and I both agree that basic individual freedom is the right thing to do. just because you are accepting the fact they are choose not to allow it, doesnt make it ok. they are brainwashed to think like that.
During times of importance...war, elections, that is when our right to free speech is MOST important. That is when there should be no restrictions on this principle of our democracy. That is when freedom is needed more than ever, to remind this government that they serve us, they are there because WE put them there, and to show them that as a group, the people of the United States are stronger than any corporation, stronger than any security force, stronger than any army.
The next time I hear about a no-protest zone in a march I'm heading straight for it, and with enough protesters we will show them who is in charge.
do you know the exact laws as it pertains to protesting during the times you mentioned?
answer these questions and you will see the reason why there are wars fought all around this world mostly in developing countries ...
in many of these places - they HAD freedom and the US took it away ...
next your going to tell me saddam was a democratically elected president.....and the taliban too?
are you gonna answer the question?