Justification, no ... Acting to destroy Israel will ensure that said occupation doesn't change, though.
Because people armed with stones, and homemade rockets are gonna destroy a country with the worlds 2nd largest fleet of F16's and 250 nuclear warheads, right?
Because people armed with stones, and homemade rockets are gonna destroy a country with the worlds 2nd largest fleet of F16's and 250 nuclear warheads, right?
I was wondering when someone would bring up the stones and such .. Yes, that's right ... They fight with fucking rocks, just like Encino Man. Next thing you know, they'll figure out how to grow wheat.
I was wondering when someone would bring up the stones and such .. Yes, that's right ... They fight with fucking rocks, just like Encino Man. Next thing you know, they'll figure out how to grow wheat.
I'm sure Israeli's are terrified about a Palestinian invasion. Just as soon as the People in Gaza have worked out a way to feed themselves, then I'm sure we'll soon see them all destroying Israel.
I'm sure Israeli's are terrified about a Palestinian invasion. Just as soon as the People in Gaza have worked out a way to feed themselves, then I'm sure we'll soon see them all destroying Israel.
Theres a good reason Israel has such a large and advanced military, along with mandatory service...They are a Jewish state smack in the middle of an Arab/Muslim world. It's no secret the surrounding countries would rather Israel not be there. That being said, leadership in Egypt and Jordan have smartened up and have learned to live in peace with their neighbors.
Remember when Gaza was apart of Egypt and West Bank apart of Jordan? Well, Jordan used to be Transjordan and 'Palestinians' lived there...
Anyway, Israel won a war, captured all that land. Now the people who live in these lands want to be independent and to run their own country, and I couldnt agree with them more. We need a 2-state solution.
Unfortunately, the Palestinians are plagued by horrible leadership, lack of proper help from outside sources (made worse by Arafat stealing a shitload of cash) and an ongoing and bitter dispute with their neighbor Israel.
I remember when Ethiopian Jews were hungry, struggling and being persecuted in their country. The IDF carried 6500 Ethiopian Jews out of their country and flew them to Israel.
Now, what I can't understand of the Arab nations, is why the Palestinian people haven't been helped out to a much greater extent. It's clear Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and others never have and don't want these people, whether they're refugees or not.
The Jews took a relatively empty land (espcially in comparison to now) and developed it into a growing country and healthy economy. No civil fighting, no hunger, good education.
Now whether or not you agree with Israel's tactics, they did accomplish their goal of develping a sustainable country, in a harsh environment.
I think, even when/if Israel pulls back to '67 borders, the Palestinians will need a whole lot more to truly develop themselves into a sustainable nation. Will they get support from other arab countries? I Hope so.
Will there be continued dispute between moderate thinkers and extremists? I hope for everyone's sake the moderates win out. In Lebanon, similar situation happened/is happening...with the nation split between Hezbollah and previous government.
When/If Israel pulls back, will there continue to be fighting and terrorist attacks? Considering the histories of Hamas/Hezbollah, this is likely.
Assuming Palestine becomes fully independent, are Hamas the right leaders to grow and progress the nation into prosperous and safe territory?
Remember when Israel made peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan? I think those are pretty HUGE examples of the fact that Israel is more than capable of peace with Arabs, and shows how Israel isn't out to grab more and more land and ethnically cleanse everyone....Like when Israel gave back Sinai for peace with Egypt. We will see this again with the 'occupied' territories. However, you gotta understand Israel was in a war with Egpyt and Jordan when they won those lands...they weren't fighting the country called Palestine. If Israel lost this war, would there be a country called Palestine today?
Anyway, let me know what you guys think besides the Apartheid/Ethnically cleansing/mass murder BS which we've talked about enough.
I want to hear your inputs on what is in store for the Palestinian people, what is needed moving forward (besides Israeli pullout) and what you think surrounding countries and their own leadership could and have done better to help the situation.
Theres a good reason Israel has such a large and advanced military, along with mandatory service...They are a Jewish state smack in the middle of an Arab/Muslim world. It's no secret the surrounding countries would rather Israel not be there. That being said, leadership in Egypt and Jordan have smartened up and have learned to live in peace with their neighbors.
Remember when Gaza was apart of Egypt and West Bank apart of Jordan? Well, Jordan used to be Transjordan and 'Palestinians' lived there...
Anyway, Israel won a war, captured all that land. Now the people who live in these lands want to be independent and to run their own country, and I couldnt agree with them more. We need a 2-state solution.
Unfortunately, the Palestinians are plagued by horrible leadership, lack of proper help from outside sources (made worse by Arafat stealing a shitload of cash) and an ongoing and bitter dispute with their neighbor Israel.
I remember when Ethiopian Jews were hungry, struggling and being persecuted in their country. The IDF carried 6500 Ethiopian Jews out of their country and flew them to Israel.
Now, what I can't understand of the Arab nations, is why the Palestinian people haven't been helped out to a much greater extent. It's clear Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and others never have and don't want these people, whether they're refugees or not.
The Jews took a relatively empty land (espcially in comparison to now) and developed it into a growing country and healthy economy. No civil fighting, no hunger, good education.
Now whether or not you agree with Israel's tactics, they did accomplish their goal of develping a sustainable country, in a harsh environment.
I think, even when/if Israel pulls back to '67 borders, the Palestinians will need a whole lot more to truly develop themselves into a sustainable nation. Will they get support from other arab countries? I Hope so.
Will there be continued dispute between moderate thinkers and extremists? I hope for everyone's sake the moderates win out. In Lebanon, similar situation happened/is happening...with the nation split between Hezbollah and previous government.
When/If Israel pulls back, will there continue to be fighting and terrorist attacks? Considering the histories of Hamas/Hezbollah, this is likely.
Assuming Palestine becomes fully independent, are Hamas the right leaders to grow and progress the nation into prosperous and safe territory?
Remember when Israel made peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan? I think those are pretty HUGE examples of the fact that Israel is more than capable of peace with Arabs, and shows how Israel isn't out to grab more and more land and ethnically cleanse everyone....Like when Israel gave back Sinai for peace with Egypt. We will see this again with the 'occupied' territories. However, you gotta understand Israel was in a war with Egpyt and Jordan when they won those lands...they weren't fighting the country called Palestine. If Israel lost this war, would there be a country called Palestine today?
Anyway, let me know what you guys think besides the Apartheid/Ethnically cleansing/mass murder BS which we've talked about enough.
I want to hear your inputs on what is in store for the Palestinian people, what is needed moving forward (besides Israeli pullout) and what you think surrounding countries and their own leadership could and have done better to help the situation.
- cheers
Few people mention that Jordan waged a war on the Palestinians, refusing to aid them and basically treating them like dogs. The Arab world at large is content to toss out the occasional UN resolution but is otherwise uninterested in getting involved.
Few people mention that Jordan waged a war on the Palestinians, refusing to aid them and basically treating them like dogs. The Arab world at large is content to toss out the occasional UN resolution but is otherwise uninterested in getting involved.
I don't think anyone here is defending the Arab world as being a superior, highly moral, and compassionate culture.
We are just saying that at least they don't put forth the pretense of such, unlike the Zionists (as differentiated from the jews and Israeli citizens that do wish for peace, and do speak out against their own government).
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I don't think anyone here is defending the Arab world as being a superior, highly moral, and compassionate culture.
We are just saying that at least they don't put forth the pretense of such, unlike the Zionists (as differentiated from the jews and Israeli citizens that do wish for peace, and do speak out against their own government).
I don't think anyone here is defending the Arab world as being a superior, highly moral, and compassionate culture.
We are just saying that at least they don't put forth the pretense of such, unlike the Zionists (as differentiated from the jews and Israeli citizens that do wish for peace, and do speak out against their own government).
Noone should feel they are superior. If that's the pretense you detect, then that's a shame, and a poor quality of some Zionists. But please, you don't think the arab world feels they're superior? You don't think americans feel they're superior....the list goes on. Just about every culture is ethnocentric...
Morality? Compassionate? I guess that needs further definition. But a few things are for sure: Israel is democratic, Israel has free press, Israel has gay rights, Israel allows every one to vote regardless of religion, Israel has killed a lot of people but it could be way worse (especially if the Israelis targeted Palestinians like the Americans target Iraqis)... The list goes on.
There is a conflict of course, there is struggling.
But it seems most people here support the type of Society that exists in Israel. Democratic, free speech, freedom to do whatever.
So as you said, if the Arab world isn't highly compassionate, moral etc
why is almost every single middle east thread on this board an attack on Israel? Either people are choosing to single out Israel/Jews (for reasons I won't go into), or they truly don't believe in all the good things Israel is about (democracy, free press, gay rights, medical innovations, etc).
But a few things are for sure: Israel is democratic, Israel has free press, Israel has gay rights, Israel allows every one to vote regardless of religion.
But it seems most people here support the type of Society that exists in Israel. Democratic, free speech, freedom to do whatever.
Free? Errm...yeah, sure. Tell that to Mordechai Vanunu, and Norman Finkelstein.
A Double Standard for Israel? http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,925561,00.html
'Now some American journalists are beginning to complain that Israeli censorship is sometimes broadened to include politically sensitive reportage, particularly on subjects that might affect support for Israel among U.S. audiences.'
'The American academic Norman Finkelstein has been arrested and ordered deported from Israel. Finkelstein arrived in Tel Aviv earlier today on his way to the Occupied Territories. He was immediately detained and told he is banned from Israel for ten years. He’s expected to be deported tomorrow. Finkelstein is known one of the most prominent academic critics of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.
JERUSALEM, May 23: The US political author and critic of Israel Norman Finkelstein was denied entry to the Jewish state on Friday, his lawyer said.
Finkelstein landed at Ben Gurion international airport near Tel Aviv in the early morning and was told by a representative of the ministry of interior that he would not be allowed into the country on ’security’ grounds, attorney Michael Sfard told dpa.
‘This usually means a 10-year ban on entry,’ Sfard added.
Finkelstein, who is Jewish and the son of Holocaust survivors, has written critical books on Israeli policies in the Palestinian territories and on what he called ‘exploitation’ of the Jewish tragedy during World War II.'
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/987465.html
'...the right to enter Israel is not guaranteed to noncitizens, but the right of Israeli citizens to hear unusual views is one that should be fought for. It is not for the government to decide which views should be heard here and which ones should not.'
Unfortunately, the Palestinians are plagued by horrible leadership, lack of proper help from outside sources (made worse by Arafat stealing a shitload of cash) and an ongoing and bitter dispute with their neighbor Israel.
There's no evidence that Arafat stole a shitload of cash, as I demonstrated earlier in another thread.
Now, what I can't understand of the Arab nations, is why the Palestinian people haven't been helped out to a much greater extent. It's clear Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and others never have and don't want these people, whether they're refugees or not.
The Jews took a relatively empty land (espcially in comparison to now) and developed it into a growing country and healthy economy. No civil fighting, no hunger, good education.
This is a lie. The Zionists invaded a country of approx 2 million Arabs and proceeded to turn it into a war zone from which it's never recovered.
Remember when Israel made peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan? I think those are pretty HUGE examples of the fact that Israel is more than capable of peace with Arabs, and shows how Israel isn't out to grab more and more land and ethnically cleanse everyone....Like when Israel gave back Sinai for peace with Egypt. We will see this again with the 'occupied' territories. However, you gotta understand Israel was in a war with Egpyt and Jordan when they won those lands...they weren't fighting the country called Palestine. If Israel lost this war, would there be a country called Palestine today?
Egypt had a powerful army and was backed by Russia. Maybe that's why the Israeli's backed off?
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine is a fact.
'For anyone who possesses a strong stomach and an equally strong desire to know the truth, I strongly recommend Israeli historian Ilan Pappe's new book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine", which makes painstakingly and painfully clear the extent to which the expulsion of the great majority of Palestinians from their homes and homeland between 1947 and 1949 (an expulsion absolutely essential to create a "Jewish state" in a country where, in 1947, the population was still 70% Muslim and Christian and these non-Jews still owned 94% of the land) was meticulously planned, programmed and documented, ruthlessly carried out and, thereafter, efficiently covered up, sanitized, erased from minds and memories and, to the extent necessary, denied. Pappe also makes clear that the cleansing spirit and cleansing practices have continued ever since, with public discussion in Israel of the "demographic threat" posed by those Palestinians still remaining in Palestine never more openly conducted and with a recent poll showing 68% of Israeli Jews in favor of expelling all Palestinian citizens of Israel...'
http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851684670 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine' by Ilan Pappe
From a readers review:
'Pappe, an Israeli historian and a senior lecturer at Haifa University, has written a superb account of the Israeli expulsion of the Palestinians from their land in 1948. He quotes David Ben Gurion, leader of the Zionist movement from the mid-1920 until the 1960s, who wrote in his diary in 1938, "I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it." This contradicts the Zionists' public claim that they were seizing a land without a people.
Pappe writes of the Israelis' March 1948 plan for evicting the Palestinians, "The orders came with a detailed description of the methods to be employed to forcibly evict the people: large-scale intimidation; laying siege to and bombarding villages and population centres; setting fire to homes, properties and goods; expulsion; demolition; and, finally, planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled inhabitants from returning."
Between 30 March and 15 May 1948, i.e. before any Arab government intervened, Israeli forces seized 200 villages and expelled 250,000 Palestinians. The Israeli leadership stated, "The principal objective of the operation is the destruction of Arab villages ... the eviction of the villagers." On 9 April, Israeli forces massacred 93 people, including 30 babies, at Deir Yassin. In Haifa, the Israeli commander ordered, "Kill any Arab you encounter."
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Free? Errm...yeah, sure. Tell that to Mordechai Vanunu, and Norman Finkelstein.
A Double Standard for Israel? http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,925561,00.html
'Now some American journalists are beginning to complain that Israeli censorship is sometimes broadened to include politically sensitive reportage, particularly on subjects that might affect support for Israel among U.S. audiences.'
'The American academic Norman Finkelstein has been arrested and ordered deported from Israel. Finkelstein arrived in Tel Aviv earlier today on his way to the Occupied Territories. He was immediately detained and told he is banned from Israel for ten years. He’s expected to be deported tomorrow. Finkelstein is known one of the most prominent academic critics of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.
JERUSALEM, May 23: The US political author and critic of Israel Norman Finkelstein was denied entry to the Jewish state on Friday, his lawyer said.
Finkelstein landed at Ben Gurion international airport near Tel Aviv in the early morning and was told by a representative of the ministry of interior that he would not be allowed into the country on ’security’ grounds, attorney Michael Sfard told dpa.
‘This usually means a 10-year ban on entry,’ Sfard added.
Finkelstein, who is Jewish and the son of Holocaust survivors, has written critical books on Israeli policies in the Palestinian territories and on what he called ‘exploitation’ of the Jewish tragedy during World War II.'
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/987465.html
'...the right to enter Israel is not guaranteed to noncitizens, but the right of Israeli citizens to hear unusual views is one that should be fought for. It is not for the government to decide which views should be heard here and which ones should not.'
Norman Finkelstien...he is one man. Don't use his opinion as gospel. He wasn't arrested for bashing Israel (half the country would the be detained), he was arrested for his connection with Hezbollah. Either way, he shouldn't have been locked up...but his situation doesn't deter from Israel's policies of free speech, free press and freedom to vote.
I never spoke about US media in my posts anyway, I spoke about Israeli media. There is no censorship in Israeli media.
(unlike surrounding arab states).
I mean you would sound completely uninformed if you were to suggest censorship and no free press in Israel when comparing them to the arab countries around them.
There's no evidence that Arafat stole a shitload of cash, as I demonstrated earlier in another thread.
Are you kidding me?
So you support the ethnic cleansing of Palestine?
When have I ever said that? Do you support the 'ethnically cleansing' of Jews?
This is a lie. The Zionists invaded a country of approx 2 million Arabs and proceeded to turn it into a war zone from which it's never recovered.
A country? Which country? Egypt?...Britain? Jordan? I don't remember what country you are referring to. Did they attack the Palestinians in Transjordan, I mean Jordan? I believe Jews gained their land with the help of the British government (who controlled the entire territory). I think the British had some sorta plan, a paritition plan maybe, where some of the land was given to Jews and some to Palestinians. Obviously this wasn't good enough, so bad in fact that Israel was invaded and attacked from all sides the day after they declared independence in 1948.
Anyway, if the Jews lost, there wouldn't be a country. (even if they went back to pre 1967 borders! lol)
Egypt had a powerful army and was backed by Russia. Maybe that's why the Israeli's backed off?
I think Egypt's President said enough is enough and couldn't take all the killing and fighting. So he signed a peace treaty with Israel in exchange for the return of Sinai. Maybe Egypt realized Israel wasn't going anywhere, and fighting them, and calling for their destruction (for no good reason) was not worth it to his people. Maybe those brilliant minds in Hamas can figure this one out...
'For anyone who possesses a strong stomach and an equally strong desire to know the truth, I strongly recommend Israeli historian Ilan Pappe's new book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine", which makes painstakingly and painfully clear the extent to which the expulsion of the great majority of Palestinians from their homes and homeland between 1947 and 1949 (an expulsion absolutely essential to create a "Jewish state" in a country where, in 1947, the population was still 70% Muslim and Christian and these non-Jews still owned 94% of the land) was meticulously planned, programmed and documented, ruthlessly carried out and, thereafter, efficiently covered up, sanitized, erased from minds and memories and, to the extent necessary, denied. Pappe also makes clear that the cleansing spirit and cleansing practices have continued ever since, with public discussion in Israel of the "demographic threat" posed by those Palestinians still remaining in Palestine never more openly conducted and with a recent poll showing 68% of Israeli Jews in favor of expelling all Palestinian citizens of Israel...'
http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851684670 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine' by Ilan Pappe
From a readers review:
'Pappe, an Israeli historian and a senior lecturer at Haifa University, has written a superb account of the Israeli expulsion of the Palestinians from their land in 1948. He quotes David Ben Gurion, leader of the Zionist movement from the mid-1920 until the 1960s, who wrote in his diary in 1938, "I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it." This contradicts the Zionists' public claim that they were seizing a land without a people.
Pappe writes of the Israelis' March 1948 plan for evicting the Palestinians, "The orders came with a detailed description of the methods to be employed to forcibly evict the people: large-scale intimidation; laying siege to and bombarding villages and population centres; setting fire to homes, properties and goods; expulsion; demolition; and, finally, planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled inhabitants from returning."
Between 30 March and 15 May 1948, i.e. before any Arab government intervened, Israeli forces seized 200 villages and expelled 250,000 Palestinians. The Israeli leadership stated, "The principal objective of the operation is the destruction of Arab villages ... the eviction of the villagers." On 9 April, Israeli forces massacred 93 people, including 30 babies, at Deir Yassin. In Haifa, the Israeli commander ordered, "Kill any Arab you encounter."
It's a fact because he said so? What about all the authors who say it isn't a fact.
And btw, Deir Yassin was horrible and it was Israel's worst actions. It is not something Israelis are proud of, and its an unspeakable act...
It's not bullshit. And you are in no position to decide whether anyone on this message board should continue, or cease, talking about it.[/quote
All I wanted was for you to discuss on what needs to happen in the future besides Israel's pullout. Use your minds people and think about how Palestine can develop into a healthy state, kinda like Israel has become...
Yeah, if we all cared a little more, maybe Israel wouldn't be suffering from the illegal occupation it's victim to...
Oh. Wait.
:rolleyes:
it's not about not caring, and you fucking know it. it's about not having tunnel vision when looking at this situation- from the OUTSIDE, btw- and assuming you are in any position to lay all the blame at either party's feet. you're so blinded by your hatred you can't even see what asses you make of yourselves over this issue. and that kind of one-sided vision is NOT going to stop ANYTHING, it just perpetuates it.
"Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
Theres a good reason Israel has such a large and advanced military, along with mandatory service...They are a Jewish state smack in the middle of an Arab/Muslim world. It's no secret the surrounding countries would rather Israel not be there. That being said, leadership in Egypt and Jordan have smartened up and have learned to live in peace with their neighbors.
Remember when Gaza was apart of Egypt and West Bank apart of Jordan? Well, Jordan used to be Transjordan and 'Palestinians' lived there...
Anyway, Israel won a war, captured all that land. Now the people who live in these lands want to be independent and to run their own country, and I couldnt agree with them more. We need a 2-state solution.
Unfortunately, the Palestinians are plagued by horrible leadership, lack of proper help from outside sources (made worse by Arafat stealing a shitload of cash) and an ongoing and bitter dispute with their neighbor Israel.
I remember when Ethiopian Jews were hungry, struggling and being persecuted in their country. The IDF carried 6500 Ethiopian Jews out of their country and flew them to Israel.
Now, what I can't understand of the Arab nations, is why the Palestinian people haven't been helped out to a much greater extent. It's clear Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and others never have and don't want these people, whether they're refugees or not.
The Jews took a relatively empty land (espcially in comparison to now) and developed it into a growing country and healthy economy. No civil fighting, no hunger, good education.
Now whether or not you agree with Israel's tactics, they did accomplish their goal of develping a sustainable country, in a harsh environment.
I think, even when/if Israel pulls back to '67 borders, the Palestinians will need a whole lot more to truly develop themselves into a sustainable nation. Will they get support from other arab countries? I Hope so.
Will there be continued dispute between moderate thinkers and extremists? I hope for everyone's sake the moderates win out. In Lebanon, similar situation happened/is happening...with the nation split between Hezbollah and previous government.
When/If Israel pulls back, will there continue to be fighting and terrorist attacks? Considering the histories of Hamas/Hezbollah, this is likely.
Assuming Palestine becomes fully independent, are Hamas the right leaders to grow and progress the nation into prosperous and safe territory?
Remember when Israel made peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan? I think those are pretty HUGE examples of the fact that Israel is more than capable of peace with Arabs, and shows how Israel isn't out to grab more and more land and ethnically cleanse everyone....Like when Israel gave back Sinai for peace with Egypt. We will see this again with the 'occupied' territories. However, you gotta understand Israel was in a war with Egpyt and Jordan when they won those lands...they weren't fighting the country called Palestine. If Israel lost this war, would there be a country called Palestine today?
Anyway, let me know what you guys think besides the Apartheid/Ethnically cleansing/mass murder BS which we've talked about enough.
I want to hear your inputs on what is in store for the Palestinian people, what is needed moving forward (besides Israeli pullout) and what you think surrounding countries and their own leadership could and have done better to help the situation.
- cheers
all good points. unfortunately, it's like using sign language to communicate with the blind.
"Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
it's not about not caring, and you fucking know it. it's about not having tunnel vision when looking at this situation- from the OUTSIDE, btw- and assuming you are in any position to lay all the blame at either party's feet. you're so blinded by your hatred you can't even see what asses you make of yourselves over this issue. and that kind of one-sided vision is NOT going to stop ANYTHING, it just perpetuates it.
Okay, I'll tell you what. Just for fun, let's have Israel pull back to the 67 borders, and then, if Palestine keeps attacking, I'll start an anti-Palestine thread.
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
Okay, I'll tell you what. Just for fun, let's have Israel pull back to the 67 borders, and then, if Palestine keeps attacking, I'll start an anti-Palestine thread.
because you wouldn't be you if you didn't have some underdog cause you think couldn't resolve itself without your analysis and input. on a rock band's message board. in fact, i'll bet the leaders of hamas visit the mt every day, just to see if you're still on their side.
"Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
because you wouldn't be you if you didn't have some underdog cause you think couldn't resolve itself without your analysis and input. on a rock band's message board. in fact, i'll bet the leaders of hamas visit the mt every day, just to see if you're still on their side.
So because I'm not directly involved in the situation, my opinion is worthless? Or is it because you disagree with me?
Hypothetically, if I sympathise with someone who gets shot in New York, am I just supporting some underdog cause? After all, it's not like he or she will be reading this message board to see if I'm on their side.
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
Norman Finkelstien...he is one man. Don't use his opinion as gospel. He wasn't arrested for bashing Israel (half the country would the be detained), he was arrested for his connection with Hezbollah. Either way, he shouldn't have been locked up...but his situation doesn't deter from Israel's policies of free speech, free press and freedom to vote.
I never spoke about US media in my posts anyway, I spoke about Israeli media. There is no censorship in Israeli media.
(unlike surrounding arab states).
I mean you would sound completely uninformed if you were to suggest censorship and no free press in Israel when comparing them to the arab countries around them.
Please explain what Norman Finkelstein's 'connection' with Hezbollah is?
And as far as Israeli censorship is concerned, I anwered that question above. Maybe you'd like to read it.
Israel bans reporting of use of "unique" weapons in Lebanon
By Redress Information & Analysis
25 July 2006
'Israel has issued new censorship guidelines banning reporting of the "use of unique kinds of ammunition and weaponry" in Lebanon. This comes amid reports that Israel is using chemical weapons against civilians in Lebanon. Below is the text of the guidelines, sent to international and local news organizations by the chief Israeli military censor, Colonel Sima Vaknin-Gil, on 23 July.'
http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/3439
'The impression that Hizbullah is using civilians as human shields has been reinforced, according to HRW, by official Israeli statements that have "blurred the distinction between civilians and combatants, arguing that only people associated with Hezbollah remain in southern Lebanon, so all are legitimate targets of attack...
...So if Israeli officials have been deceiving us about what has been occurring inside Lebanon, have they also been misleading us about Hizbullah's rocket attacks on Israel? Should we take at face value government and army statements that Hizbullah's strikes into Israel are targeting civilians indiscriminately, or do they need more serious investigation?
Although we should not romanticise Hizbullah, equally we should not be quick to demonise it either -- unless there is convincing evidence suggesting it has been firing on civilian targets. The problem is that Israel has been abusing very successfully its military censorship rules governing both its domestic media and the reporting of visiting foreign journalists to prevent meaningful discussion of what Hizbullah has been trying to hit inside Israel.'
it's not about not caring, and you fucking know it. it's about not having tunnel vision when looking at this situation- from the OUTSIDE, btw- and assuming you are in any position to lay all the blame at either party's feet. you're so blinded by your hatred you can't even see what asses you make of yourselves over this issue. and that kind of one-sided vision is NOT going to stop ANYTHING, it just perpetuates it.
I APOLOGIZE for the fact that i haven't UNDERSTOOD your superior logic ON this issue, and I WISH that i could stop BEING so blinded by MY hatred of jews and learn to SEE the big picture and realise that EVERYONE is to blame for the illegal Israeli occupaTION!!
Okay, I'll tell you what. Just for fun, let's have Israel pull back to the 67 borders, and then, if Palestine keeps attacking, I'll start an anti-Palestine thread.
Sounds good to me ... A withdrawal to pre-1967 borders needs to be tried. My hunch is that a good many Palestinians would get on with their lives, while a few bad apples would continue with the "resistence".
I don't actually recall you having communicated anything to do with this issue.
But by all means, if you have something to say then say it.
Don't hold your breath...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Sounds good to me ... A withdrawal to pre-1967 borders needs to be tried. My hunch is that a good many Palestinians would get on with their lives, while a few bad apples would continue with the "resistence".
And at that point, I'll have no problem with condemning unprovoked attacks against Israel as blatant terrorism. I presume Byrnzie would feel similarly. But until then, I feel it's justified to lay most of the blame at Israel's feet. You occupy land that isn't yours, and you get what you asked for, in terms of retaliation.
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
Hamas has basically agreed to chill out if Israel keeps out of the West bank (if I've read correctly). Israel, however appears to be full steam ahead, and keen on building and bulldozing the West bank.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds as close to a solution if there is ever going to be one. If I were Israel, I would probably chill out on the illegal settlement building for a while, or at least make some kind of announcement in good faith.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
You occupy land that isn't yours, and you get what you asked for, in terms of retaliation.
Some people fail to see this. I'll forever wonder what happens in the brain for some to make it a living and ongoing reality. Maybe too much potatoes in the diet....I dunno....exposure to drugs and alcohol in the womb...or perhaps a combination thereof.
The whole "gods chosen people"...a built in racist mindset. I can;t imagine any nationality being able to build racist colonies anywhere inthe world, yet some people even support. It's frightening what some people manage to perpetually rationalize.
There's probably a reason why china shop owners don't keep pet bulls roaming the aisles...I've always thought.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
nice brainless cherry pick.... care to address the rest?
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
nice brainless cherry pick.... care to address the rest?
Its a direct response to your potatoes remark. If that's all you got, you don't merit an intelligent response. Personal attacks like that are a sign of frustration, you should consider a new topic. Truthfully, people have addressed your points many, many times over, and its not sinking in.
Comments
Because people armed with stones, and homemade rockets are gonna destroy a country with the worlds 2nd largest fleet of F16's and 250 nuclear warheads, right?
I was wondering when someone would bring up the stones and such .. Yes, that's right ... They fight with fucking rocks, just like Encino Man. Next thing you know, they'll figure out how to grow wheat.
I'm sure Israeli's are terrified about a Palestinian invasion. Just as soon as the People in Gaza have worked out a way to feed themselves, then I'm sure we'll soon see them all destroying Israel.
Theres a good reason Israel has such a large and advanced military, along with mandatory service...They are a Jewish state smack in the middle of an Arab/Muslim world. It's no secret the surrounding countries would rather Israel not be there. That being said, leadership in Egypt and Jordan have smartened up and have learned to live in peace with their neighbors.
Remember when Gaza was apart of Egypt and West Bank apart of Jordan? Well, Jordan used to be Transjordan and 'Palestinians' lived there...
Anyway, Israel won a war, captured all that land. Now the people who live in these lands want to be independent and to run their own country, and I couldnt agree with them more. We need a 2-state solution.
Unfortunately, the Palestinians are plagued by horrible leadership, lack of proper help from outside sources (made worse by Arafat stealing a shitload of cash) and an ongoing and bitter dispute with their neighbor Israel.
I remember when Ethiopian Jews were hungry, struggling and being persecuted in their country. The IDF carried 6500 Ethiopian Jews out of their country and flew them to Israel.
Now, what I can't understand of the Arab nations, is why the Palestinian people haven't been helped out to a much greater extent. It's clear Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and others never have and don't want these people, whether they're refugees or not.
The Jews took a relatively empty land (espcially in comparison to now) and developed it into a growing country and healthy economy. No civil fighting, no hunger, good education.
Now whether or not you agree with Israel's tactics, they did accomplish their goal of develping a sustainable country, in a harsh environment.
I think, even when/if Israel pulls back to '67 borders, the Palestinians will need a whole lot more to truly develop themselves into a sustainable nation. Will they get support from other arab countries? I Hope so.
Will there be continued dispute between moderate thinkers and extremists? I hope for everyone's sake the moderates win out. In Lebanon, similar situation happened/is happening...with the nation split between Hezbollah and previous government.
When/If Israel pulls back, will there continue to be fighting and terrorist attacks? Considering the histories of Hamas/Hezbollah, this is likely.
Assuming Palestine becomes fully independent, are Hamas the right leaders to grow and progress the nation into prosperous and safe territory?
Remember when Israel made peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan? I think those are pretty HUGE examples of the fact that Israel is more than capable of peace with Arabs, and shows how Israel isn't out to grab more and more land and ethnically cleanse everyone....Like when Israel gave back Sinai for peace with Egypt. We will see this again with the 'occupied' territories. However, you gotta understand Israel was in a war with Egpyt and Jordan when they won those lands...they weren't fighting the country called Palestine. If Israel lost this war, would there be a country called Palestine today?
Anyway, let me know what you guys think besides the Apartheid/Ethnically cleansing/mass murder BS which we've talked about enough.
I want to hear your inputs on what is in store for the Palestinian people, what is needed moving forward (besides Israeli pullout) and what you think surrounding countries and their own leadership could and have done better to help the situation.
- cheers
Few people mention that Jordan waged a war on the Palestinians, refusing to aid them and basically treating them like dogs. The Arab world at large is content to toss out the occasional UN resolution but is otherwise uninterested in getting involved.
I don't think anyone here is defending the Arab world as being a superior, highly moral, and compassionate culture.
We are just saying that at least they don't put forth the pretense of such, unlike the Zionists (as differentiated from the jews and Israeli citizens that do wish for peace, and do speak out against their own government).
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Fair enough.
Noone should feel they are superior. If that's the pretense you detect, then that's a shame, and a poor quality of some Zionists. But please, you don't think the arab world feels they're superior? You don't think americans feel they're superior....the list goes on. Just about every culture is ethnocentric...
Morality? Compassionate? I guess that needs further definition. But a few things are for sure: Israel is democratic, Israel has free press, Israel has gay rights, Israel allows every one to vote regardless of religion, Israel has killed a lot of people but it could be way worse (especially if the Israelis targeted Palestinians like the Americans target Iraqis)... The list goes on.
There is a conflict of course, there is struggling.
But it seems most people here support the type of Society that exists in Israel. Democratic, free speech, freedom to do whatever.
So as you said, if the Arab world isn't highly compassionate, moral etc
why is almost every single middle east thread on this board an attack on Israel? Either people are choosing to single out Israel/Jews (for reasons I won't go into), or they truly don't believe in all the good things Israel is about (democracy, free press, gay rights, medical innovations, etc).
Free? Errm...yeah, sure. Tell that to Mordechai Vanunu, and Norman Finkelstein.
A Double Standard for Israel?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,925561,00.html
'Now some American journalists are beginning to complain that Israeli censorship is sometimes broadened to include politically sensitive reportage, particularly on subjects that might affect support for Israel among U.S. audiences.'
http://www.brasscheck.com/videos/middleeast/me5.html
Cutting through Israel's propaganda war in the US
Four short clips of things Americans never see on TV
http://www.iraq-war.ru/article/165371
Norman Finkelstein arrested in Israel
DesertPeace 24 maggio 2008
'The American academic Norman Finkelstein has been arrested and ordered deported from Israel. Finkelstein arrived in Tel Aviv earlier today on his way to the Occupied Territories. He was immediately detained and told he is banned from Israel for ten years. He’s expected to be deported tomorrow. Finkelstein is known one of the most prominent academic critics of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.
JERUSALEM, May 23: The US political author and critic of Israel Norman Finkelstein was denied entry to the Jewish state on Friday, his lawyer said.
Finkelstein landed at Ben Gurion international airport near Tel Aviv in the early morning and was told by a representative of the ministry of interior that he would not be allowed into the country on ’security’ grounds, attorney Michael Sfard told dpa.
‘This usually means a 10-year ban on entry,’ Sfard added.
Finkelstein, who is Jewish and the son of Holocaust survivors, has written critical books on Israeli policies in the Palestinian territories and on what he called ‘exploitation’ of the Jewish tragedy during World War II.'
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/987465.html
'...the right to enter Israel is not guaranteed to noncitizens, but the right of Israeli citizens to hear unusual views is one that should be fought for. It is not for the government to decide which views should be heard here and which ones should not.'
There's no evidence that Arafat stole a shitload of cash, as I demonstrated earlier in another thread.
So you support the ethnic cleansing of Palestine?
This is a lie. The Zionists invaded a country of approx 2 million Arabs and proceeded to turn it into a war zone from which it's never recovered.
Egypt had a powerful army and was backed by Russia. Maybe that's why the Israeli's backed off?
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine is a fact.
http://www.counterpunch.org/whitbeck01272007.html
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
By JOHN WHITBECK
'For anyone who possesses a strong stomach and an equally strong desire to know the truth, I strongly recommend Israeli historian Ilan Pappe's new book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine", which makes painstakingly and painfully clear the extent to which the expulsion of the great majority of Palestinians from their homes and homeland between 1947 and 1949 (an expulsion absolutely essential to create a "Jewish state" in a country where, in 1947, the population was still 70% Muslim and Christian and these non-Jews still owned 94% of the land) was meticulously planned, programmed and documented, ruthlessly carried out and, thereafter, efficiently covered up, sanitized, erased from minds and memories and, to the extent necessary, denied. Pappe also makes clear that the cleansing spirit and cleansing practices have continued ever since, with public discussion in Israel of the "demographic threat" posed by those Palestinians still remaining in Palestine never more openly conducted and with a recent poll showing 68% of Israeli Jews in favor of expelling all Palestinian citizens of Israel...'
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/General/Story1903.html
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine: George Galloway Interviews Israeli Historian Ilan Pappe
http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851684670
'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine' by Ilan Pappe
From a readers review:
'Pappe, an Israeli historian and a senior lecturer at Haifa University, has written a superb account of the Israeli expulsion of the Palestinians from their land in 1948. He quotes David Ben Gurion, leader of the Zionist movement from the mid-1920 until the 1960s, who wrote in his diary in 1938, "I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it." This contradicts the Zionists' public claim that they were seizing a land without a people.
Pappe writes of the Israelis' March 1948 plan for evicting the Palestinians, "The orders came with a detailed description of the methods to be employed to forcibly evict the people: large-scale intimidation; laying siege to and bombarding villages and population centres; setting fire to homes, properties and goods; expulsion; demolition; and, finally, planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled inhabitants from returning."
Between 30 March and 15 May 1948, i.e. before any Arab government intervened, Israeli forces seized 200 villages and expelled 250,000 Palestinians. The Israeli leadership stated, "The principal objective of the operation is the destruction of Arab villages ... the eviction of the villagers." On 9 April, Israeli forces massacred 93 people, including 30 babies, at Deir Yassin. In Haifa, the Israeli commander ordered, "Kill any Arab you encounter."
It's not bullshit. And you are in no position to decide whether anyone on this message board should continue, or cease, talking about it.
http://i29.tinypic.com/10dik36.jpg
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Norman Finkelstien...he is one man. Don't use his opinion as gospel. He wasn't arrested for bashing Israel (half the country would the be detained), he was arrested for his connection with Hezbollah. Either way, he shouldn't have been locked up...but his situation doesn't deter from Israel's policies of free speech, free press and freedom to vote.
I never spoke about US media in my posts anyway, I spoke about Israeli media. There is no censorship in Israeli media.
(unlike surrounding arab states).
I mean you would sound completely uninformed if you were to suggest censorship and no free press in Israel when comparing them to the arab countries around them.
:rolleyes:
it's not about not caring, and you fucking know it. it's about not having tunnel vision when looking at this situation- from the OUTSIDE, btw- and assuming you are in any position to lay all the blame at either party's feet. you're so blinded by your hatred you can't even see what asses you make of yourselves over this issue. and that kind of one-sided vision is NOT going to stop ANYTHING, it just perpetuates it.
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
all good points. unfortunately, it's like using sign language to communicate with the blind.
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
Okay, I'll tell you what. Just for fun, let's have Israel pull back to the 67 borders, and then, if Palestine keeps attacking, I'll start an anti-Palestine thread.
because you wouldn't be you if you didn't have some underdog cause you think couldn't resolve itself without your analysis and input. on a rock band's message board. in fact, i'll bet the leaders of hamas visit the mt every day, just to see if you're still on their side.
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
So because I'm not directly involved in the situation, my opinion is worthless? Or is it because you disagree with me?
Hypothetically, if I sympathise with someone who gets shot in New York, am I just supporting some underdog cause? After all, it's not like he or she will be reading this message board to see if I'm on their side.
'The Israel You Don’t See on the News'
http://tvnewslies.org/html/the_israel_you_don_t_see_on_th.html
Please explain what Norman Finkelstein's 'connection' with Hezbollah is?
And as far as Israeli censorship is concerned, I anwered that question above. Maybe you'd like to read it.
Israel bans reporting of use of "unique" weapons in Lebanon
By Redress Information & Analysis
25 July 2006
'Israel has issued new censorship guidelines banning reporting of the "use of unique kinds of ammunition and weaponry" in Lebanon. This comes amid reports that Israel is using chemical weapons against civilians in Lebanon. Below is the text of the guidelines, sent to international and local news organizations by the chief Israeli military censor, Colonel Sima Vaknin-Gil, on 23 July.'
http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/3439
'The impression that Hizbullah is using civilians as human shields has been reinforced, according to HRW, by official Israeli statements that have "blurred the distinction between civilians and combatants, arguing that only people associated with Hezbollah remain in southern Lebanon, so all are legitimate targets of attack...
...So if Israeli officials have been deceiving us about what has been occurring inside Lebanon, have they also been misleading us about Hizbullah's rocket attacks on Israel? Should we take at face value government and army statements that Hizbullah's strikes into Israel are targeting civilians indiscriminately, or do they need more serious investigation?
Although we should not romanticise Hizbullah, equally we should not be quick to demonise it either -- unless there is convincing evidence suggesting it has been firing on civilian targets. The problem is that Israel has been abusing very successfully its military censorship rules governing both its domestic media and the reporting of visiting foreign journalists to prevent meaningful discussion of what Hizbullah has been trying to hit inside Israel.'
I don't actually recall you having communicated anything to do with this issue.
But by all means, if you have something to say then say it.
I APOLOGIZE for the fact that i haven't UNDERSTOOD your superior logic ON this issue, and I WISH that i could stop BEING so blinded by MY hatred of jews and learn to SEE the big picture and realise that EVERYONE is to blame for the illegal Israeli occupaTION!!
Sounds good to me ... A withdrawal to pre-1967 borders needs to be tried. My hunch is that a good many Palestinians would get on with their lives, while a few bad apples would continue with the "resistence".
Don't hold your breath...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
And at that point, I'll have no problem with condemning unprovoked attacks against Israel as blatant terrorism. I presume Byrnzie would feel similarly. But until then, I feel it's justified to lay most of the blame at Israel's feet. You occupy land that isn't yours, and you get what you asked for, in terms of retaliation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds as close to a solution if there is ever going to be one. If I were Israel, I would probably chill out on the illegal settlement building for a while, or at least make some kind of announcement in good faith.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Some people fail to see this. I'll forever wonder what happens in the brain for some to make it a living and ongoing reality. Maybe too much potatoes in the diet....I dunno....exposure to drugs and alcohol in the womb...or perhaps a combination thereof.
The whole "gods chosen people"...a built in racist mindset. I can;t imagine any nationality being able to build racist colonies anywhere inthe world, yet some people even support. It's frightening what some people manage to perpetually rationalize.
There's probably a reason why china shop owners don't keep pet bulls roaming the aisles...I've always thought.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Speaking from personal experience?
1948, and up until 67...the whole world viewed Israel as the underdog.
They won the war, and public perceptions quickly changed.
nice brainless cherry pick.... care to address the rest?
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Its a direct response to your potatoes remark. If that's all you got, you don't merit an intelligent response. Personal attacks like that are a sign of frustration, you should consider a new topic. Truthfully, people have addressed your points many, many times over, and its not sinking in.