Frontline profiles Jewish Extremeists

MrBrian

reborncareerist wrote:

Alright, cool. If you guys think that a pull-back is needed (versus some kind of magical removal of the Israeli state itself), then we actually agree on more than a person who reads most of these threads might assume.

How far should the pull back be I think is the question now. We also all know that Israel will never agree to anything =

So what can you do?

rebornFixer

MrBrian wrote:

How far should the pull back be I think is the question now. We also all know that Israel will never agree to anything =

So what can you do?

One cannot do anything, assuming that Israel will never agree to a pullback, and assuming that Hamas and rerlated groups continue to launch attacks. The violence will continue.

MrBrian

reborncareerist wrote:

One cannot do anything, assuming that Israel will never agree to a pullback, and assuming that Hamas and rerlated groups continue to launch attacks. The violence will continue.

Yeah you see, look everytime..and I mean everytime the palestinian stop the attacks, Israel will do something to triger more. Maybe they will take more land, shoot a child,bulldoze a home, you know something that will spark the fire.

So you say nothing can be done about it? well think about this, america stopping it's support for Israel. Start with that.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

reborncareerist wrote:

One cannot do anything, assuming that Israel will never agree to a pullback, and assuming that Hamas and rerlated groups continue to launch attacks. The violence will continue.

I believe Hamas has said if Israel gets out of the West Bank, and agrees to stop building illegal settlements there, it will essentially solve the problem.

Not good enough for Israel, because you know they want ALL the land, and a pile of dead Arabs as fertilizer.

sweetpotato

seriously, does the hatred of israel never get tired on this forum?? jesus christ. you guys are so fucking predictable. ooh, what a shock, roland started a thread about jewish extremists. meanwhile, the very title of the thread should be turning on a light in your dim minds. these are extremists they're profiling. i'm not so naive to think that it doesn't represent ALOT of israelis, but not all, and it doesn't represent or explain the struggle AT ALL. because the struggle is TWO-SIDED and your arguments are, without fail, ONE-SIDED. therefore, it is obvious to everyone EXCEPT YOU that you are not interested in any way in actually UNDERSTANDING the struggle, just in choosing sides and picking fights. you bore me. too bad so many people only have the depth of understanding that you do. maybe if there was a bit more compassion and desire to understand and a little less knee-jerk judgement and condemnation, the problems they're having would inch closer to a resolution.

Byrnzie

sweetpotato wrote:

seriously, does the hatred of israel never get tired on this forum?? jesus christ. you guys are so fucking predictable. ooh, what a shock, roland started a thread about jewish extremists. meanwhile, the very title of the thread should be turning on a light in your dim minds. these are extremists they're profiling. i'm not so naive to think that it doesn't represent ALOT of israelis, but not all, and it doesn't represent or explain the struggle AT ALL. because the struggle is TWO-SIDED and your arguments are, without fail, ONE-SIDED. therefore, it is obvious to everyone EXCEPT YOU that you are not interested in any way in actually UNDERSTANDING the struggle, just in choosing sides and picking fights. you bore me. too bad so many people only have the depth of understanding that you do. maybe if there was a bit more compassion and desire to understand and a little less knee-jerk judgement and condemnation, the problems they're having would inch closer to a resolution.

Errm...o.k.
And with YOUR attitude we'd still BE witnessing Apartheid South Africa, Algeria WOULD still be run BY the French, and blacks IN America would still be sitting AT the back OF the bus.

Rhinocerous Surprise

sweetpotato wrote:

seriously, does the hatred of israel never get tired on this forum?? jesus christ. you guys are so fucking predictable. ooh, what a shock, roland started a thread about jewish extremists. meanwhile, the very title of the thread should be turning on a light in your dim minds. these are extremists they're profiling. i'm not so naive to think that it doesn't represent ALOT of israelis, but not all, and it doesn't represent or explain the struggle AT ALL. because the struggle is TWO-SIDED and your arguments are, without fail, ONE-SIDED. therefore, it is obvious to everyone EXCEPT YOU that you are not interested in any way in actually UNDERSTANDING the struggle, just in choosing sides and picking fights. you bore me. too bad so many people only have the depth of understanding that you do. maybe if there was a bit more compassion and desire to understand and a little less knee-jerk judgement and condemnation, the problems they're having would inch closer to a resolution.

Yeah, if we all cared a little more, maybe Israel wouldn't be suffering from the illegal occupation it's victim to...

Oh. Wait.

canadajammer

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I believe Hamas has said if Israel gets out of the West Bank, and agrees to stop building illegal settlements there, it will essentially solve the problem.

Not good enough for Israel, because you know they want ALL the land, and a pile of dead Arabs as fertilizer.

They've also said they're commited to the destruction of Israel...

Byrnzie

Colorsblending9 wrote:

They've also said they're commited to the destruction of Israel...

What people say, and what's actually happening are often two different things.
Besides, any Palestinian saying that they wish for the destruction of Israel is no justification for the occupation.

rebornFixer

Byrnzie wrote:

What people say, and what's actually happening are often two different things.
Besides, any Palestinian saying that they wish for the destruction of Israel is no justification for the occupation.

Justification, no ... Acting to destroy Israel will ensure that said occupation doesn't change, though.

Byrnzie

reborncareerist wrote:

Justification, no ... Acting to destroy Israel will ensure that said occupation doesn't change, though.

Because people armed with stones, and homemade rockets are gonna destroy a country with the worlds 2nd largest fleet of F16's and 250 nuclear warheads, right?

rebornFixer

Byrnzie wrote:

Because people armed with stones, and homemade rockets are gonna destroy a country with the worlds 2nd largest fleet of F16's and 250 nuclear warheads, right?

I was wondering when someone would bring up the stones and such .. Yes, that's right ... They fight with fucking rocks, just like Encino Man. Next thing you know, they'll figure out how to grow wheat.

Byrnzie

reborncareerist wrote:

I was wondering when someone would bring up the stones and such .. Yes, that's right ... They fight with fucking rocks, just like Encino Man. Next thing you know, they'll figure out how to grow wheat.

I'm sure Israeli's are terrified about a Palestinian invasion. Just as soon as the People in Gaza have worked out a way to feed themselves, then I'm sure we'll soon see them all destroying Israel.

canadajammer

Byrnzie wrote:

I'm sure Israeli's are terrified about a Palestinian invasion. Just as soon as the People in Gaza have worked out a way to feed themselves, then I'm sure we'll soon see them all destroying Israel.

Theres a good reason Israel has such a large and advanced military, along with mandatory service...They are a Jewish state smack in the middle of an Arab/Muslim world. It's no secret the surrounding countries would rather Israel not be there. That being said, leadership in Egypt and Jordan have smartened up and have learned to live in peace with their neighbors.

Remember when Gaza was apart of Egypt and West Bank apart of Jordan? Well, Jordan used to be Transjordan and 'Palestinians' lived there...

Anyway, Israel won a war, captured all that land. Now the people who live in these lands want to be independent and to run their own country, and I couldnt agree with them more. We need a 2-state solution.

Unfortunately, the Palestinians are plagued by horrible leadership, lack of proper help from outside sources (made worse by Arafat stealing a shitload of cash) and an ongoing and bitter dispute with their neighbor Israel.

I remember when Ethiopian Jews were hungry, struggling and being persecuted in their country. The IDF carried 6500 Ethiopian Jews out of their country and flew them to Israel.

Now, what I can't understand of the Arab nations, is why the Palestinian people haven't been helped out to a much greater extent. It's clear Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and others never have and don't want these people, whether they're refugees or not.

The Jews took a relatively empty land (espcially in comparison to now) and developed it into a growing country and healthy economy. No civil fighting, no hunger, good education.

Now whether or not you agree with Israel's tactics, they did accomplish their goal of develping a sustainable country, in a harsh environment.

I think, even when/if Israel pulls back to '67 borders, the Palestinians will need a whole lot more to truly develop themselves into a sustainable nation. Will they get support from other arab countries? I Hope so.

Will there be continued dispute between moderate thinkers and extremists? I hope for everyone's sake the moderates win out. In Lebanon, similar situation happened/is happening...with the nation split between Hezbollah and previous government.


When/If Israel pulls back, will there continue to be fighting and terrorist attacks? Considering the histories of Hamas/Hezbollah, this is likely.


Assuming Palestine becomes fully independent, are Hamas the right leaders to grow and progress the nation into prosperous and safe territory?



Remember when Israel made peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan? I think those are pretty HUGE examples of the fact that Israel is more than capable of peace with Arabs, and shows how Israel isn't out to grab more and more land and ethnically cleanse everyone....Like when Israel gave back Sinai for peace with Egypt. We will see this again with the 'occupied' territories. However, you gotta understand Israel was in a war with Egpyt and Jordan when they won those lands...they weren't fighting the country called Palestine. If Israel lost this war, would there be a country called Palestine today?


Anyway, let me know what you guys think besides the Apartheid/Ethnically cleansing/mass murder BS which we've talked about enough.

I want to hear your inputs on what is in store for the Palestinian people, what is needed moving forward (besides Israeli pullout) and what you think surrounding countries and their own leadership could and have done better to help the situation.

- cheers

rebornFixer

Colorsblending9 wrote:

Theres a good reason Israel has such a large and advanced military, along with mandatory service...They are a Jewish state smack in the middle of an Arab/Muslim world. It's no secret the surrounding countries would rather Israel not be there. That being said, leadership in Egypt and Jordan have smartened up and have learned to live in peace with their neighbors.

Remember when Gaza was apart of Egypt and West Bank apart of Jordan? Well, Jordan used to be Transjordan and 'Palestinians' lived there...

Anyway, Israel won a war, captured all that land. Now the people who live in these lands want to be independent and to run their own country, and I couldnt agree with them more. We need a 2-state solution.

Unfortunately, the Palestinians are plagued by horrible leadership, lack of proper help from outside sources (made worse by Arafat stealing a shitload of cash) and an ongoing and bitter dispute with their neighbor Israel.

I remember when Ethiopian Jews were hungry, struggling and being persecuted in their country. The IDF carried 6500 Ethiopian Jews out of their country and flew them to Israel.

Now, what I can't understand of the Arab nations, is why the Palestinian people haven't been helped out to a much greater extent. It's clear Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and others never have and don't want these people, whether they're refugees or not.

The Jews took a relatively empty land (espcially in comparison to now) and developed it into a growing country and healthy economy. No civil fighting, no hunger, good education.

Now whether or not you agree with Israel's tactics, they did accomplish their goal of develping a sustainable country, in a harsh environment.

I think, even when/if Israel pulls back to '67 borders, the Palestinians will need a whole lot more to truly develop themselves into a sustainable nation. Will they get support from other arab countries? I Hope so.

Will there be continued dispute between moderate thinkers and extremists? I hope for everyone's sake the moderates win out. In Lebanon, similar situation happened/is happening...with the nation split between Hezbollah and previous government.


When/If Israel pulls back, will there continue to be fighting and terrorist attacks? Considering the histories of Hamas/Hezbollah, this is likely.


Assuming Palestine becomes fully independent, are Hamas the right leaders to grow and progress the nation into prosperous and safe territory?



Remember when Israel made peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan? I think those are pretty HUGE examples of the fact that Israel is more than capable of peace with Arabs, and shows how Israel isn't out to grab more and more land and ethnically cleanse everyone....Like when Israel gave back Sinai for peace with Egypt. We will see this again with the 'occupied' territories. However, you gotta understand Israel was in a war with Egpyt and Jordan when they won those lands...they weren't fighting the country called Palestine. If Israel lost this war, would there be a country called Palestine today?


Anyway, let me know what you guys think besides the Apartheid/Ethnically cleansing/mass murder BS which we've talked about enough.

I want to hear your inputs on what is in store for the Palestinian people, what is needed moving forward (besides Israeli pullout) and what you think surrounding countries and their own leadership could and have done better to help the situation.

- cheers

Few people mention that Jordan waged a war on the Palestinians, refusing to aid them and basically treating them like dogs. The Arab world at large is content to toss out the occasional UN resolution but is otherwise uninterested in getting involved.

DriftingByTheStorm

reborncareerist wrote:

Few people mention that Jordan waged a war on the Palestinians, refusing to aid them and basically treating them like dogs. The Arab world at large is content to toss out the occasional UN resolution but is otherwise uninterested in getting involved.

I don't think anyone here is defending the Arab world as being a superior, highly moral, and compassionate culture.

We are just saying that at least they don't put forth the pretense of such, unlike the Zionists (as differentiated from the jews and Israeli citizens that do wish for peace, and do speak out against their own government).

rebornFixer

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

I don't think anyone here is defending the Arab world as being a superior, highly moral, and compassionate culture.

We are just saying that at least they don't put forth the pretense of such, unlike the Zionists (as differentiated from the jews and Israeli citizens that do wish for peace, and do speak out against their own government).

Fair enough.

canadajammer

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

I don't think anyone here is defending the Arab world as being a superior, highly moral, and compassionate culture.

We are just saying that at least they don't put forth the pretense of such, unlike the Zionists (as differentiated from the jews and Israeli citizens that do wish for peace, and do speak out against their own government).

Noone should feel they are superior. If that's the pretense you detect, then that's a shame, and a poor quality of some Zionists. But please, you don't think the arab world feels they're superior? You don't think americans feel they're superior....the list goes on. Just about every culture is ethnocentric...

Morality? Compassionate? I guess that needs further definition. But a few things are for sure: Israel is democratic, Israel has free press, Israel has gay rights, Israel allows every one to vote regardless of religion, Israel has killed a lot of people but it could be way worse (especially if the Israelis targeted Palestinians like the Americans target Iraqis)... The list goes on.


There is a conflict of course, there is struggling.

But it seems most people here support the type of Society that exists in Israel. Democratic, free speech, freedom to do whatever.


So as you said, if the Arab world isn't highly compassionate, moral etc
why is almost every single middle east thread on this board an attack on Israel? Either people are choosing to single out Israel/Jews (for reasons I won't go into), or they truly don't believe in all the good things Israel is about (democracy, free press, gay rights, medical innovations, etc).

Byrnzie

Colorsblending9 wrote:

But a few things are for sure: Israel is democratic, Israel has free press, Israel has gay rights, Israel allows every one to vote regardless of religion.

But it seems most people here support the type of Society that exists in Israel. Democratic, free speech, freedom to do whatever.

Free? Errm...yeah, sure. Tell that to Mordechai Vanunu, and Norman Finkelstein.

A Double Standard for Israel?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,925561,00.html
'Now some American journalists are beginning to complain that Israeli censorship is sometimes broadened to include politically sensitive reportage, particularly on subjects that might affect support for Israel among U.S. audiences.'


http://www.brasscheck.com/videos/middleeast/me5.html
Cutting through Israel's propaganda war in the US
Four short clips of things Americans never see on TV

http://www.iraq-war.ru/article/165371
Norman Finkelstein arrested in Israel
DesertPeace 24 maggio 2008


'The American academic Norman Finkelstein has been arrested and ordered deported from Israel. Finkelstein arrived in Tel Aviv earlier today on his way to the Occupied Territories. He was immediately detained and told he is banned from Israel for ten years. He’s expected to be deported tomorrow. Finkelstein is known one of the most prominent academic critics of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.


JERUSALEM, May 23: The US political author and critic of Israel Norman Finkelstein was denied entry to the Jewish state on Friday, his lawyer said.

Finkelstein landed at Ben Gurion international airport near Tel Aviv in the early morning and was told by a representative of the ministry of interior that he would not be allowed into the country on ’security’ grounds, attorney Michael Sfard told dpa.

‘This usually means a 10-year ban on entry,’ Sfard added.

Finkelstein, who is Jewish and the son of Holocaust survivors, has written critical books on Israeli policies in the Palestinian territories and on what he called ‘exploitation’ of the Jewish tragedy during World War II.'

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/987465.html
'...the right to enter Israel is not guaranteed to noncitizens, but the right of Israeli citizens to hear unusual views is one that should be fought for. It is not for the government to decide which views should be heard here and which ones should not.'

Byrnzie

Colorsblending9 wrote:

Unfortunately, the Palestinians are plagued by horrible leadership, lack of proper help from outside sources (made worse by Arafat stealing a shitload of cash) and an ongoing and bitter dispute with their neighbor Israel.

There's no evidence that Arafat stole a shitload of cash, as I demonstrated earlier in another thread.

Colorsblending9 wrote:

Now, what I can't understand of the Arab nations, is why the Palestinian people haven't been helped out to a much greater extent. It's clear Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and others never have and don't want these people, whether they're refugees or not.

So you support the ethnic cleansing of Palestine?

Colorsblending9 wrote:

The Jews took a relatively empty land (espcially in comparison to now) and developed it into a growing country and healthy economy. No civil fighting, no hunger, good education.

This is a lie. The Zionists invaded a country of approx 2 million Arabs and proceeded to turn it into a war zone from which it's never recovered.

Colorsblending9 wrote:

Remember when Israel made peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan? I think those are pretty HUGE examples of the fact that Israel is more than capable of peace with Arabs, and shows how Israel isn't out to grab more and more land and ethnically cleanse everyone....Like when Israel gave back Sinai for peace with Egypt. We will see this again with the 'occupied' territories. However, you gotta understand Israel was in a war with Egpyt and Jordan when they won those lands...they weren't fighting the country called Palestine. If Israel lost this war, would there be a country called Palestine today?

Egypt had a powerful army and was backed by Russia. Maybe that's why the Israeli's backed off?
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine is a fact.

http://www.counterpunch.org/whitbeck01272007.html
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
By JOHN WHITBECK

'For anyone who possesses a strong stomach and an equally strong desire to know the truth, I strongly recommend Israeli historian Ilan Pappe's new book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine", which makes painstakingly and painfully clear the extent to which the expulsion of the great majority of Palestinians from their homes and homeland between 1947 and 1949 (an expulsion absolutely essential to create a "Jewish state" in a country where, in 1947, the population was still 70% Muslim and Christian and these non-Jews still owned 94% of the land) was meticulously planned, programmed and documented, ruthlessly carried out and, thereafter, efficiently covered up, sanitized, erased from minds and memories and, to the extent necessary, denied. Pappe also makes clear that the cleansing spirit and cleansing practices have continued ever since, with public discussion in Israel of the "demographic threat" posed by those Palestinians still remaining in Palestine never more openly conducted and with a recent poll showing 68% of Israeli Jews in favor of expelling all Palestinian citizens of Israel...'

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/General/Story1903.html
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine: George Galloway Interviews Israeli Historian Ilan Pappe

http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851684670
'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine' by Ilan Pappe
From a readers review:
'Pappe, an Israeli historian and a senior lecturer at Haifa University, has written a superb account of the Israeli expulsion of the Palestinians from their land in 1948. He quotes David Ben Gurion, leader of the Zionist movement from the mid-1920 until the 1960s, who wrote in his diary in 1938, "I am for compulsory transfer; I do not see anything immoral in it." This contradicts the Zionists' public claim that they were seizing a land without a people.

Pappe writes of the Israelis' March 1948 plan for evicting the Palestinians, "The orders came with a detailed description of the methods to be employed to forcibly evict the people: large-scale intimidation; laying siege to and bombarding villages and population centres; setting fire to homes, properties and goods; expulsion; demolition; and, finally, planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled inhabitants from returning."

Between 30 March and 15 May 1948, i.e. before any Arab government intervened, Israeli forces seized 200 villages and expelled 250,000 Palestinians. The Israeli leadership stated, "The principal objective of the operation is the destruction of Arab villages ... the eviction of the villagers." On 9 April, Israeli forces massacred 93 people, including 30 babies, at Deir Yassin. In Haifa, the Israeli commander ordered, "Kill any Arab you encounter."

Colorsblending9 wrote:

Anyway, let me know what you guys think besides the Apartheid/Ethnically cleansing/mass murder BS which we've talked about enough.

It's not bullshit. And you are in no position to decide whether anyone on this message board should continue, or cease, talking about it.