Is God infallible?

135

Comments

  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    gue_barium wrote:
    Sensually, yes.
    In what manner? Couldn't someone say that they "sense" God too? A sense is something that is individually percieved, not what's real. In reality, does such a thing as darkness and coldness actually exist and how are they measured?
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    PJPOWER wrote:
    In what manner?
    Sensually, the senses.
    PJPOWER wrote:
    Couldn't someone say that they "sense" God too?
    They can say whatever they want.
    PJPOWER wrote:
    A sense is something that is individually percieved, not what's real. In reality, does such a thing as darkness and coldness actually exist and how are they measured?

    I'd have to pretty much disagree with where you're going with that. If it's dark outside, I think everyone who is outside is going to be aware that it is dark.

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  • gue_barium wrote:
    Sensually, the senses.


    They can say whatever they want.



    I'd have to pretty much disagree with where you're going with that. If it's dark outside, I think everyone who is outside is going to be aware that it is dark.



    Unless someone is blind, then it's pretty much dark all of the time, but may still very much sence GOD's presence, or the coldness of someone's attitude without SEEING their face. PRAYERS - PATIENCE - PEACE
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Unless someone is blind, then it's pretty much dark all of the time, but may still very much sence GOD's presence, or the coldness of someone's attitude without SEEING their face. PRAYERS - PATIENCE - PEACE

    Well, now you're just getting fancy with the language. I think the question referred to actual Dark and Cold. Or Light and Heat, etc....

    He was trying to pull the smarter than the atheist professor routine.

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  • gue_barium wrote:
    Well, now you're just getting fancy with the language. I think the question referred to actual Dark and Cold. Or Light and Heat, etc....

    He was trying to pull the smarter than the atheist professor routine.


    Trying to explain (not convince) about the belief in GOD & faith to a devout non-believer is about like explaining 'colors' to the blind; or the sounds of a bird singing or a baby laughing to someone who is deaf. I could go further with the "dumb" part (tee-hee), but I won't! PRAYERS - PATIENCE - PEACE
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Trying to explain (not convince) about the belief in GOD & faith to a devout non-believer is about like explaining 'colors' to the blind; or the sounds of a bird singing or a baby laughing to someone who is deaf. I could go further with the "dumb" part (tee-hee), but I won't! PRAYERS - PATIENCE - PEACE

    I'm not to certain of what you are getting at in this reply to me, but it is something akin to the English language. Teehee.

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  • elmerelmer Posts: 1,683
    God???? you cannot ever comprehend what a "God" is !

    religion is myth and truths passed down through the ages, converted into story by long forgotten geniuses.
  • Vedd HeddVedd Hedd Posts: 4,606
    My #2 pencil just darkened the circle for "C".
    Turn this anger into
    Nuclear fission
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    gue_barium wrote:
    Well, now you're just getting fancy with the language. I think the question referred to actual Dark and Cold. Or Light and Heat, etc....

    He was trying to pull the smarter than the atheist professor routine.
    I realize that it may have sounded like that, but that was not my intentions at all. I wanted to find out how people interpret things like evil, cold, dark, good, bad, life, death, etc. Many times one is often refered to the opposite of another, when most of the time they are only human semantics. Would "evil" even exist outside of human definitions? I wonder if animals have any concept of "evil"...Technically, "evil" couldn't even happen without there being a "God".........isn't that where the word came from? Shouldn't it instead be in terms of detremental and helpful, instead of evil and good if you take "God" out of the equasion?
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    Vedd Hedd wrote:
    My #2 pencil just darkened the circle for "C".
    Or is the "C" now just reflecting less "light" :)
  • Uncle LeoUncle Leo Posts: 1,059
    If God is infallible, how come I beat him in a game of HORSE last night?
    I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    lgt wrote:
    Uh, I think Thomas Aquinas may disagree with you! :)

    And so, Augustine, Pascal, and even Kant...

    And they are wrong. The "First Mover" is a non sequitor.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • This thread started out with the question : Is GOD Infallible?
    (This is a good one!)

    The inventor of the Harley-Davidson motorcycle, Arthur Davidson, died and went to heaven. At the gates, St. Peter told Arthur, "Since you've been such a good man and your motorcycles have changed the world, your reward is, you can hang out with anyone you want to in heaven."

    Arthur thought for a minute and then said, "I want to hang out with God."

    St. Peter took Arthur to the Throne Room, and introduced him to God.

    God recognized Arthur and said, "Okay, so you were the one who invented the Harley-Davidson motorcycle?"

    Arthur said, "Yeah, that's me ..." God commented : "Well, what's the big deal in inventing something that's pretty unstable, makes noise and pollutuon and can't run without a road?"

    Arthur was somewhat embarrassed, but finally spoke, "Excuse me, but aren't you the inventor of woman?"

    God said, "Ah, yes." "Well", said Arthur, "professional to professional, you have some major design FLAWS in your invention :

    1. There's too much inconsistency in the front-end protrusion

    2. It chatters constantly at high speeds

    3. Most rear ends are too soft and wobble too much

    4. The intake is placed way too close to the exhaust

    5. The maintenance costs are outrageous!!!!

    "Hmmmm, you may have some good points there," replied God ..."hold on."

    God went to His Celestial supercomputer, typed in a few words and waited for the results.

    When the printout was complete, God read it ...

    "Well, it may be true that my invention is FLAWED, but according to these numbers, more men are riding my invention than yours." PRAYERS - PATIENCE - PEACE
  • Vedd HeddVedd Hedd Posts: 4,606
    PJPOWER wrote:
    Or is the "C" now just reflecting less "light" :)

    Only if it was a number 3. They never worked for SCANTRON tests.
    Turn this anger into
    Nuclear fission
  • deadnotedeadnote Posts: 1,678
    bla i think what happens is god puts you through a bunch of stuff it thinks is smart just to see your true spirit but in fact our true self can only be seen when we are happy therefore rendering all of this world stupid and meaningless

    the bible is so iqish that it just isnt nothing but toilet paper even if the person you love most gave it to you
    set your laughter free

    dreamer in my dream

    we got the guns

    i love you,but im..............callin out.........callin out
  • lgtlgt Posts: 720
    Ahnimus wrote:
    And they are wrong. The "First Mover" is a non sequitor.

    Not sure how you rebuked their argument, considering that the Aristotelian Prime Mover, which Aquinas and the Medieval Scholastic then interpreted as God, is posited as the cause for all else. In other words, everything else is originated from it, but by definition the Prime Mover is not originated to start with (Non Sequitur means that it does not follow in Latin).

    So, how does that prove them wrong?!
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    lgt wrote:
    Not sure how you rebuked their argument, considering that the Aristotelian Prime Mover, which Aquinas and the Medieval Scholastic then interpreted as God, is posited as the cause for all else. In other words, everything else is originated from it, but by definition the Prime Mover is not originated to start with (Non Sequitur means that it does not follow in Latin).

    So, how does that prove them wrong?!

    It was also once believed that the earth was flat. In which case, the surface of the earth might be considered to have a beginning. It begins at, say, the east edge and ends at the west edge. But, that is not the case, and in-fact, there is no beginning or end to the surface of the earth. Stephen Hawking proposed a boundryless model of the universe to the Vatican in the 1980s. The non sequitor is that the universe must have a beginning for it to exist at all. I understand their distaste for infinite regression, but it does not follow that there must therefor be a self-sufficient first cause. Both are equally as distasteful. However, with the argument of God as the first mover, we must extend the argument to God and ask what moves God. Additionally, as we have become aware, "intelligence" arises in humans from a highly complex interaction of nerve cells. Human intelligence is not self-sufficient, it requires underlying causes. So therefor, one must explain how God's intelligence is self-sufficient. Any attempt to insert God into the creation of the universe opens up a can of questions about the origins of God.

    There may or may not be a God of sorts that preceeded the creation of the universe, or the universe it's self may be self-sufficient. The point is, we don't know and none of those philosopher's were able to tip the scales in their favor. They may have convinced themselves and others who shared their ideology, but in an objective sense, it's all rubbish. There are other possibilities that are far more plausible. The desire to anthropomorphize everything is a human fallacy. It's even more likely that the so-called "Big Bang" was the result of a benign and unintelligent force. A result of quantum fluctuations, by chance, giving rise to a system that works. As cosmologists like Hawking have shown, if the universe were in but a few configurations it would recollapse within seconds of the Big Bang. Therefor any Creator's hands would be strapped to do it one of a few ways. From that point on the evolution of the universe would strictly follow the laws we observe today. There is no room for any freedom of human or divine will and thus the Christian God is a false God.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    Vedd Hedd wrote:
    Only if it was a number 3. They never worked for SCANTRON tests.
    I wish I would have been able to surf the net while taking a SCANTRON test, lol
  • Uncle LeoUncle Leo Posts: 1,059
    PJPOWER wrote:
    I wish I would have been able to surf the net while taking a SCANTRON test, lol

    Do not fold, bend, spindle or mutilate.
    I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
  • Vedd HeddVedd Hedd Posts: 4,606
    Uncle Leo wrote:
    Do not fold, bend, spindle or mutilate.


    Do not begin this test.

    Wait for your instructor.


    I honestly cant remember the last SCANTRON test I took, but I remember them so well.
    Turn this anger into
    Nuclear fission
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    PJPOWER wrote:
    I realize that it may have sounded like that, but that was not my intentions at all. I wanted to find out how people interpret things like evil, cold, dark, good, bad, life, death, etc. Many times one is often refered to the opposite of another, when most of the time they are only human semantics. Would "evil" even exist outside of human definitions? I wonder if animals have any concept of "evil"...Technically, "evil" couldn't even happen without there being a "God".........isn't that where the word came from? Shouldn't it instead be in terms of detremental and helpful, instead of evil and good if you take "God" out of the equasion?

    If you ride a Harley I see there's someone on this thread who might be interested in that kind of jibberish.

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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    It was also once believed that the earth was flat. In which case, the surface of the earth might be considered to have a beginning. It begins at, say, the east edge and ends at the west edge. But, that is not the case, and in-fact, there is no beginning or end to the surface of the earth. Stephen Hawking proposed a boundryless model of the universe to the Vatican in the 1980s. The non sequitor is that the universe must have a beginning for it to exist at all. I understand their distaste for infinite regression, but it does not follow that there must therefor be a self-sufficient first cause. Both are equally as distasteful. However, with the argument of God as the first mover, we must extend the argument to God and ask what moves God. Additionally, as we have become aware, "intelligence" arises in humans from a highly complex interaction of nerve cells. Human intelligence is not self-sufficient, it requires underlying causes. So therefor, one must explain how God's intelligence is self-sufficient. Any attempt to insert God into the creation of the universe opens up a can of questions about the origins of God.

    There may or may not be a God of sorts that preceeded the creation of the universe, or the universe it's self may be self-sufficient. The point is, we don't know and none of those philosopher's were able to tip the scales in their favor. They may have convinced themselves and others who shared their ideology, but in an objective sense, it's all rubbish. There are other possibilities that are far more plausible. The desire to anthropomorphize everything is a human fallacy. It's even more likely that the so-called "Big Bang" was the result of a benign and unintelligent force. A result of quantum fluctuations, by chance, giving rise to a system that works. As cosmologists like Hawking have shown, if the universe were in but a few configurations it would recollapse within seconds of the Big Bang. Therefor any Creator's hands would be strapped to do it one of a few ways. From that point on the evolution of the universe would strictly follow the laws we observe today. There is no room for any freedom of human or divine will and thus the Christian God is a false God.

    Intelligence doesn't "arise." Nor does it need an underlying cause.

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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    Intelligence doesn't "arise." Nor does it need an underlying cause.

    Bullshit.

    Why don't you offer up some further explanation, genius.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Bullshit.

    Why don't you offer up some further explanation, genius.

    Explanation for what? I gave an opinion. Don't call me genius.

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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    Explanation for what? I gave an opinion. Don't call me genius.

    You can't make a statement like you did without providing an explanatory model. How does "Intelligence" exist without cause?

    If you think you are intelligent without your brain, just try to get rid of your brain, while you are at it, try meeting some mentally retarted people and ask them why they aren't intelligent.

    All you did was post rhetoric to advance your ignorant ideological views.

    Send me your cerebellum and we'll see if you can even sit at your computer desk and post a message.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    You can't make a statement like you did without providing an explanatory model. How does "Intelligence" exist without cause?

    If you think you are intelligent without your brain, just try to get rid of your brain, while you are at it, try meeting some mentally retarted people and ask them why they aren't intelligent.

    All you did was post rhetoric to advance your ignorant ideological views.

    Send me your cerebellum and we'll see if you can even sit at your computer desk and post a message.

    "How does "Intelligence" exist without cause?"

    I'm not here to make answers for you.

    Don't call me ignorant.

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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    "How does "Intelligence" exist without cause?"

    I'm not here to make answers for you.

    Don't call me ignorant.

    You don't have an answer. You are just spitting nonsense. I find it quite annoying that you make statements you can't back up. If you want to have an opinion, you should have some knowledge backing it up.

    Here is a lesson:

    Mental Retardation is caused by:

    Down syndrome, fetal alcohol syndrome and Fragile X syndrome are the three most common inborn causes. However, doctors have found many other causes. The most common are:

    Genetic conditions. Sometimes disability is caused by abnormal genes inherited from parents, errors when genes combine, or other reasons. Examples of genetic conditions include Down syndrome, Fragile X syndrome, Phelan-McDermid syndrome (22q13del), Mowat-Wilson syndrome and phenylketonuria (PKU).
    Problems during pregnancy. Mental disability can result when the fetus does not develop inside the mother properly. For example, there may be a problem with the way the fetus's cells divide as it grows. A woman who drinks alcohol (see fetal alcohol syndrome) or gets an infection like rubella during pregnancy may also have a baby with mental disability.
    Problems at birth. If a baby has problems during labor and birth, such as not getting enough oxygen, he or she may have developmental disability due to brain damage.
    Health problems. Diseases like whooping cough, measles, or meningitis can cause mental disability. It can also be caused by not getting enough medical care, or by being exposed to poisons like lead or mercury.
    Iodine deficiency, affecting approximately 2 billion people worldwide, is the leading preventable cause of mental disability in areas of the developing world where iodine deficiency is endemic. Iodine deficiency also causes goiter, an enlargement of the thyroid gland. More common than full-fledged cretinism, as retardation caused by severe iodine deficiency is called, is mild impairment of intelligence. Certain areas of the world due to natural deficiency and governmental inaction are severely affected. India is the most outstanding, with 500 million suffering from deficiency, 54 million from goiter, and 2 million from cretinism. Among other nations affected by iodine deficiency, China and Kazakhstan have begun taking action, while Russia has not. [5]
    Malnutrition is a common cause of reduced intelligence in parts of the world affected by famine, such as Ethiopia. [6]
    The use of forceps during birth can lead to mental retardation in an otherwise normal child. They can fracture the skull and cause brain damage.
    Institutionalisation at a young age can cause mental retardation in normal children.
    Sensory deprivation in the form of severe environmental restrictions (such as being locked in a basement or under a staircase), prolonged isolation, or severe atypical parent-child interactions.
    Psycho-social disadvantage. Contributing factors are lack of reading material, use of a language not common in that community, poor diet, poor health practices, and poor housing.

    What do all these things have in common? They affect the normal development of the brain!

    The BRAIN is the underlying cause of intelligence.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus wrote:
    It was also once believed that the earth was flat. In which case, the surface of the earth might be considered to have a beginning. It begins at, say, the east edge and ends at the west edge. But, that is not the case, and in-fact, there is no beginning or end to the surface of the earth. Stephen Hawking proposed a boundryless model of the universe to the Vatican in the 1980s. The non sequitor is that the universe must have a beginning for it to exist at all. I understand their distaste for infinite regression, but it does not follow that there must therefor be a self-sufficient first cause. Both are equally as distasteful. However, with the argument of God as the first mover, we must extend the argument to God and ask what moves God. Additionally, as we have become aware, "intelligence" arises in humans from a highly complex interaction of nerve cells. Human intelligence is not self-sufficient, it requires underlying causes. So therefor, one must explain how God's intelligence is self-sufficient. Any attempt to insert God into the creation of the universe opens up a can of questions about the origins of God.

    There may or may not be a God of sorts that preceeded the creation of the universe, or the universe it's self may be self-sufficient. The point is, we don't know and none of those philosopher's were able to tip the scales in their favor. They may have convinced themselves and others who shared their ideology, but in an objective sense, it's all rubbish. There are other possibilities that are far more plausible. The desire to anthropomorphize everything is a human fallacy. It's even more likely that the so-called "Big Bang" was the result of a benign and unintelligent force. A result of quantum fluctuations, by chance, giving rise to a system that works. As cosmologists like Hawking have shown, if the universe were in but a few configurations it would recollapse within seconds of the Big Bang. Therefor any Creator's hands would be strapped to do it one of a few ways. From that point on the evolution of the universe would strictly follow the laws we observe today. There is no room for any freedom of human or divine will and thus the Christian God is a false God.

    You make some good points and i have thought about this many times but I always come back to thinking that if God was the Creator of the Big Bang and then why would it matter if the "Creator's hands would be strapped to do it in one of a few ways"? If a Creator was able to make something like this happen I believe the Creator would have known what the outcome was going to be. I personally have no problem thinking that God created the Big Bang and everything after was Gods intention, including the laws we observe today.
    Seeing visions of falling up somehow.

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  • Bu2Bu2 Posts: 1,693
    You make some good points and i have thought about this many times but I always come back to thinking that if God was the Creator of the Big Bang and then why would it matter if the "Creator's hands would be strapped to do it in one of a few ways"? If a Creator was able to make something like this happen I believe the Creator would have known what the outcome was going to be. I personally have no problem thinking that God created the Big Bang and everything after was Gods intention, including the laws we observe today.

    I believed that God created the big bang. But that still leads one to question, who was God, to have been able to do that? Was he a scientist? Was he from another planet with wisdom far deeper than our own? And when creating that big bang, did he know the outcome, or did he sit down on a chair in his lab and say "Holy Shit!" once he saw what his big bang created?

    Did he watch as beings grew from the dirt or did he make man on the 7000th day of life? Did he hope we'd all behave ourselves and be nice and not kill one another or eat meat on Friday's, or did he have a Rabbi sitting next to him dictating the stone tablets that Moses carried down from the mountain? Did he impregnate Mary in his lab while she was sleeping and then send her back down to earth to give the "happy news" to Joseph?

    All these questions ran through my head, for most of my life (which explains my beer belly and forehead wrinkles) and I finally gave up seeking the answers and asking the questions and just said, "Whatever....let's just be nice to one another and the planet we were lucky enough to be born on."

    Much simpler.
    Feels Good Inc.
  • FinsburyParkCarrotsFinsburyParkCarrots Seattle, WA Posts: 12,223
    We could never know if God was infallible, since the language we use, to describe concepts of infallibility, is inherently unstable: that is, language is not infallible. We might ask, but what about beyond language? Could we perceive infallibility in an extra-linguistic sense? Er, no, sorry. We're fooked on that score.
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