If God is infallible and perfect, then why is the world so imperfect?
Simple question, but there is so much to it. We talked about this in philosophy class the other day. I am a man of faith.... religion isn't the purpose of my life, but I do believe in a just and powerful God. This was a very interesting question though. The possible solutions are pretty much
a. God's true purpose can never be understood by our human minds.
b. God is in fact not infallible.
c. God simply doesn't exist, either in traditional terms or at all.
What do you guys think of this? I'd be interested in hearing both sides of the argument.
Here's an analogy to ponder : A man goes into a barber shop to get a hair cut & shave, and all-the-while having conversation with the barber. When the subject turned to GOD the barber stated that he doesn't 'believe in GOD'..."if there were a GOD why is there so much pain & suffering in the world?" The man didn't want to 'argue' with the barber on the issue. As the man left the barbershop, clean shaven & trimmed hair, he noticed a man standing near with long dirty hair and a wholly beard...an 'appearence' of unkept & dirty. The man went back into the barber shop & proclaimed "BARBERS DO NOT EXIST!" The barber looked at the man with total bewilderment & said,"What are you talking about?! I'm HERE & I just worked on you!" The man replied, "BUT if you existed WHY is that man outside with the long dirty hair & wholly beard?!" The barber smurked and said, "That's because he CHOOSES not to 'come to me'. " With that the man exclaimed, "EXACTLY!! GOD DOES EXIST!! People CHOOSE not to go to HIM!" (You might ask 'Why allow a choice?' ...Because love is GIVEN NOT TAKEN-)PRAYERS - PATIENCE - PEACE
If we were incapable of evil and hatred, we would also be incapable of RIGHTEOUSNESS and LOVE. Its very simple really. Without, at least, the possibility of evil and hatred, love would have absolutely no meaning or value. What does it mean to me to be loved, if it were the only possibility? What would it mean for me to say i love, when i was merely programmed to do so without the possibility of hating instead?
Love and righteousness would not exist as it does, at least it would have absolutely no meaning, value, or power whatsoever, if not for the existence of the opposite, hatred and evil, as well. How can one truly appreciate happiness, if they have absolutely no understanding, absolutely no concept, no experience of sorrow?
i have no idea what stage of life you are in (sounds like you are a traditional college student) try at least to imagine a scenario such as this:
Your loving spouse and children: "DOSW, Daddy/Mommy, I love you."
DOSW: " Uh,... so. You love everybody. Everybody loves everybody. There is no other option. What does love mean anyway. Its not like there was any other possibility"
The way it stands, however, love feels good! It has value and meaning. It feels good inside to know someone truly loves you. It feels good inside to truly love someone else. That wouldn't be possible if hatred and evil weren't alternative possibilities! When you really think about it, it IS perfect!!
Couldn't God have made it so that we can only feel either neutral or happy though, WITHOUT diminishing the effect of happiness? If he can do ANYTHING, he could do that.
If he can't do that, then he's by definition not all-powerful. You see what I'm saying?
It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
Who said the world was imperfect? If God is who created it, then perhaps it is perfect in God's eyes....?
You can't judge God based upon human logic. I can't understand why so many people fail to see that.
you're missing a lot of biblical concepts here....
18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Romans 8:18-22
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
If God is infallible and perfect, then why is the world so imperfect?
Simple question, but there is so much to it. We talked about this in philosophy class the other day. I am a man of faith.... religion isn't the purpose of my life, but I do believe in a just and powerful God. This was a very interesting question though. The possible solutions are pretty much
a. God's true purpose can never be understood by our human minds.
b. God is in fact not infallible.
c. God simply doesn't exist, either in traditional terms or at all.
What do you guys think of this? I'd be interested in hearing both sides of the argument.
A. is my choice. I don't think a gnat can really comprehend what I am, or know what I know, but I'm sure that little fly knows more about me than I know about God.
you're missing a lot of biblical concepts here....
18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Romans 8:18-22
And that was going to be my second point - that what if the earth wasn't even supposed to be perfect. What if the perfection comes from heaven?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I want to point out that people who seem to have no power, whether working people, people of color, or women -- once they organize and protest and create movements -- have a voice no government can suppress. Howard Zinn
Actually, the world is perfectly perfect, atleast if you listen to what Cosmologists like Stephen Hawking are saying. But then if you listen to science, then you probably wouldn't believe in God anyway. The initial configuration of the universe must have been such that it couldn't have been any other way, or they may be only a few possible configurations that would allow for the emergence of intelligent life, since most configurations would recollapse on themselves within a nanosecond. From the point of the configurations that work, everything evolves systematically with the laws of science, including humans, and our evolution is not a free enterprise, we move with the universe, we cannot move otherwise.
But from what i have read Stephen Hawkings believes in God. I could be wrong but I thought i remembered reading that.
Seeing visions of falling up somehow.
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Here's an analogy to ponder : A man goes into a barber shop to get a hair cut & shave, and all-the-while having conversation with the barber. When the subject turned to GOD the barber stated that he doesn't 'believe in GOD'..."if there were a GOD why is there so much pain & suffering in the world?" The man didn't want to 'argue' with the barber on the issue. As the man left the barbershop, clean shaven & trimmed hair, he noticed a man standing near with long dirty hair and a wholly beard...an 'appearence' of unkept & dirty. The man went back into the barber shop & proclaimed "BARBERS DO NOT EXIST!" The barber looked at the man with total bewilderment & said,"What are you talking about?! I'm HERE & I just worked on you!" The man replied, "BUT if you existed WHY is that man outside with the long dirty hair & wholly beard?!" The barber smurked and said, "That's because he CHOOSES not to 'come to me'. " With that the man exclaimed, "EXACTLY!! GOD DOES EXIST!! People CHOOSE not to go to HIM!" (You might ask 'Why allow a choice?' ...Because love is GIVEN NOT TAKEN-)PRAYERS - PATIENCE - PEACE
First, there is still pain and suffering to those who choose to go to God(Christians, perhaps), from moral to natural evil.
Just playing Devil's advocate here, but this analogy doesn't really do justice to the problem of evil (POE). Your are correct: the existence of a shaggy guy does not mean there are no barbers. However, the POE (maybe in more carefully thought out versions) would say that it is not simply the existence of evil that disproves God's existence, but that evil in the world combined with the attributes of God (omnipotence, omnibenevolence, etc.) leads to incosistency. Such as for example, if God omnipotent, he should be able to prevent/stop suffering. But there is still suffering. Does that mean God doesn't want to prevent suffering (thus he is not benevolent?) Perhaps maybe God is benevolent, but can't prevent suffering, thus he is not omnipotent. Well you see where this is going (read Hume)...
Anyway, like I said, I'm just playing devil's advocate. Personally, I don't think there is an incosistency, but that is traditionally the jist of the argument. I strongly reccomend reading Alvin Plantinga, who frequently discusses in detail the POE, if you're interested....
But from what i have read Stephen Hawkings believes in God. I could be wrong but I thought i remembered reading that.
In A Brief History of Time Hawking uses the term God "for lack of a better word" to describe the creator, if such a creator is required for the universe to exist.
In the following interview on Israeli television Hawking states:
The basic assumption of science is scientific determinism. The laws of science determine the evolution of the universe, given it's state at one time. These laws may or may not have been decreed by God, but he cannot intervene to break the laws, or they would not be laws. That leaves God with the freedom to choose the initial state of the universe, but even here it seems there may be laws. So God would have no freedom at all.
The idea I get from reading his work is this; God may or may not exist. If God does exist then God's only role was to initially configure the universe, and even then may not have had any freedom. Hawking gave a presentation at the Vatican proposing a boundryless model of space-time, which eliminates any need for a creator. It would seem to me that Hawking is more of a scientist in this regard than most. There is not sufficient evidence to believe God does or does not exist, however, it's obvious that such a God exercises no intervention in the deterministic progression of the universe.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
The world is imperfect because the world does not do what God wants them to do.
According to the Bible...if you don't do what God says, you get cursed.
I hate it when people blame God for the state of the world. They need to look at themselves instead.
Ahnimus, AT Least, please, use the real Bible, not that phony crap you just typed in. Thanks.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Yes, good point, but what my professor was trying to say was....
Why didn't God make us incapable of evil then? Free will is usually the argument, but couldn't God have made us believe that we act freely, while still making us incapable of doing wrong? He is all powerful, after all.
Because, God being perfect, gives us a choice, instead of forcing us to be a certain way. And the whole reason for being on the earth is to make that choice. God doesn't want people who don't truly love him in heaven. And love, if you read the Bible, is keeping his commandments. NOT the lovey-dovey God-loves-you-no-matter-what-you-do.
BTW, Ahnimus thinks I'm ignorant and myopic because I don't believe what he believes. He's very objective (said with extreme sarcasm).
When life gives you lemons, throw them at somebody.
So god truely is vengeful. SOmehting like hurricane Katrina would not have happened if people acted appropriately. Fred Phelps was probably right--the I-35 bridge probably collapsed because of Minneapolis' cavalier treatment of gay sinners.
Yes, God is vengeful. Read the Bible. It says it plainly in there:
Romans 12:19:
"...for it is written: Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
Here's another one:
Nahum 1:3
"The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet."
Whatta know, God has his way with the whirlwind and the storm. What does that tell you?
I have a concordance, and whirlwind means "hurricane". If you don't believe the Bible, and I don't think you do, according to what you say, then there is no point in even paying attention to what I am writing.
When life gives you lemons, throw them at somebody.
Because, God being perfect, gives us a choice, instead of forcing us to be a certain way. And the whole reason for being on the earth is to make that choice. God doesn't want people who don't truly love him in heaven. And love, if you read the Bible, is keeping his commandments. NOT the lovey-dovey God-loves-you-no-matter-what-you-do.
BTW, Ahnimus thinks I'm ignorant and myopic because I don't believe what he believes. He's very objective (said with extreme sarcasm).
Oh yeah. The "Bible" is the ultimate truth... shya right!
You don't have the kind of choice that the "Bible" requires you to have. That's a fact.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Ahnimus, I don't believe what you believe. Okay? I'm not going to go on and on about the stuff you believe and how ignorant and myopic you sound to me.
You think I'm close-minded, but you are. I don't care what you believe. You can believe whatever you wish to believe. That's YOUR choice. You don't believe in God and I do. What is the point in arguing?
When life gives you lemons, throw them at somebody.
Ahnimus, I don't believe what you believe. Okay? I'm not going to go on and on about the stuff you believe and how ignorant and myopic you sound to me.
You think I'm close-minded, but you are. I don't care what you believe. You can believe whatever you wish to believe. That's YOUR choice. You don't believe in God and I do. What is the point in arguing?
And this brings you to the debate, why?
If you want to just have your beliefs and don't want any criticism of them, then don't come to a debate.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
There is a difference between debating and insulting. You don't debate, you insult. All of the time. You THINK I am unlearned and ignorant, but I have done a lot of research. I don't often feel like writing HUGE posts, and so I keep them short.
When life gives you lemons, throw them at somebody.
There is a difference between debating and insulting. You don't debate, you insult. All of the time. You THINK I am unlearned and ignorant, but I have done a lot of research. I don't often feel like writing HUGE posts, and so I keep them short.
No, you just quote the bible.
I said you are myopic, your sights are set on your God and proving it exists. If you expanded your knowledge beyond scripture, you might find out God likely doesn't exist at all and that book is a work of fiction.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Couldn't God have made it so that we can only feel either neutral or happy though, WITHOUT diminishing the effect of happiness? If he can do ANYTHING, he could do that.
If he can't do that, then he's by definition not all-powerful. You see what I'm saying?
He probably COULD, but why? We wouldn't be able to appreciate it! Furthermore it would have absolutely no value! None. What value would rigtheousness have if its counterpoint, wickedness was not a possibility? It would have absolutely no value at all, in fact it couldn't even exist! Righteousness, by definition and conotation, is behavior that is "right" and "good", rather than that is "wrong" or "bad". If there is no such thing as "wrong" or "bad"...
What value would it have for someone to say of you " Wow, that DOSW is a cool guy/gal. He/she is always willing to go out of the way to help someone out, always doing the 'right thing'", if thats was the only possibility? What would that really say of your character? NOTHING! What value would the love i have for my wife and children have it was the only feeling and emotion available to me? NONE! What VALUE would joy have if there wasn't even the potential for despair? A world without the POTENTIAL for evil, hatred, sorrow and grief, might be more peaceful, but it wouldn't be any happier. It couldn't be. The possibility of hatred and sadness is exactly what makes love and happiness so beautiful!
Certainly God COULD have created wind-up, tin toys instead of human beings, but, there wouldn't be much point to that.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Yes, God is vengeful. Read the Bible. It says it plainly in there:
.....
To be more precise, you should say "read the Old Testament".
God description in the New Testament is quite different from the one in the Old Testament, less vengeaful, vindictive and cruel.
And that's what Jesus' teachings were all about, right?
Comments
Here's an analogy to ponder : A man goes into a barber shop to get a hair cut & shave, and all-the-while having conversation with the barber. When the subject turned to GOD the barber stated that he doesn't 'believe in GOD'..."if there were a GOD why is there so much pain & suffering in the world?" The man didn't want to 'argue' with the barber on the issue. As the man left the barbershop, clean shaven & trimmed hair, he noticed a man standing near with long dirty hair and a wholly beard...an 'appearence' of unkept & dirty. The man went back into the barber shop & proclaimed "BARBERS DO NOT EXIST!" The barber looked at the man with total bewilderment & said,"What are you talking about?! I'm HERE & I just worked on you!" The man replied, "BUT if you existed WHY is that man outside with the long dirty hair & wholly beard?!" The barber smurked and said, "That's because he CHOOSES not to 'come to me'. " With that the man exclaimed, "EXACTLY!! GOD DOES EXIST!! People CHOOSE not to go to HIM!" (You might ask 'Why allow a choice?' ...Because love is GIVEN NOT TAKEN-)PRAYERS - PATIENCE - PEACE
Couldn't God have made it so that we can only feel either neutral or happy though, WITHOUT diminishing the effect of happiness? If he can do ANYTHING, he could do that.
If he can't do that, then he's by definition not all-powerful. You see what I'm saying?
That really added a lot, thanks.
Who said the world was imperfect? If God is who created it, then perhaps it is perfect in God's eyes....?
You can't judge God based upon human logic. I can't understand why so many people fail to see that.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Romans 8:18-22
My pleasure.
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thinking you pretty much nailed it....end of discussion.
A. is my choice. I don't think a gnat can really comprehend what I am, or know what I know, but I'm sure that little fly knows more about me than I know about God.
And that was going to be my second point - that what if the earth wasn't even supposed to be perfect. What if the perfection comes from heaven?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Agreed, a most amazing thing!!!
But from what i have read Stephen Hawkings believes in God. I could be wrong but I thought i remembered reading that.
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First, there is still pain and suffering to those who choose to go to God(Christians, perhaps), from moral to natural evil.
Just playing Devil's advocate here, but this analogy doesn't really do justice to the problem of evil (POE). Your are correct: the existence of a shaggy guy does not mean there are no barbers. However, the POE (maybe in more carefully thought out versions) would say that it is not simply the existence of evil that disproves God's existence, but that evil in the world combined with the attributes of God (omnipotence, omnibenevolence, etc.) leads to incosistency. Such as for example, if God omnipotent, he should be able to prevent/stop suffering. But there is still suffering. Does that mean God doesn't want to prevent suffering (thus he is not benevolent?) Perhaps maybe God is benevolent, but can't prevent suffering, thus he is not omnipotent. Well you see where this is going (read Hume)...
Anyway, like I said, I'm just playing devil's advocate. Personally, I don't think there is an incosistency, but that is traditionally the jist of the argument. I strongly reccomend reading Alvin Plantinga, who frequently discusses in detail the POE, if you're interested....
Peace
In A Brief History of Time Hawking uses the term God "for lack of a better word" to describe the creator, if such a creator is required for the universe to exist.
In the following interview on Israeli television Hawking states:
The basic assumption of science is scientific determinism. The laws of science determine the evolution of the universe, given it's state at one time. These laws may or may not have been decreed by God, but he cannot intervene to break the laws, or they would not be laws. That leaves God with the freedom to choose the initial state of the universe, but even here it seems there may be laws. So God would have no freedom at all.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mUaiPw6xuPE
The idea I get from reading his work is this; God may or may not exist. If God does exist then God's only role was to initially configure the universe, and even then may not have had any freedom. Hawking gave a presentation at the Vatican proposing a boundryless model of space-time, which eliminates any need for a creator. It would seem to me that Hawking is more of a scientist in this regard than most. There is not sufficient evidence to believe God does or does not exist, however, it's obvious that such a God exercises no intervention in the deterministic progression of the universe.
I agree.
And so is anyone who agrees with her.
BTW, Ahnimus thinks I'm ignorant and myopic because I don't believe what he believes. He's very objective (said with extreme sarcasm).
Romans 12:19:
"...for it is written: Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
Here's another one:
Nahum 1:3
"The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet."
Whatta know, God has his way with the whirlwind and the storm. What does that tell you?
I have a concordance, and whirlwind means "hurricane". If you don't believe the Bible, and I don't think you do, according to what you say, then there is no point in even paying attention to what I am writing.
Oh yeah. The "Bible" is the ultimate truth... shya right!
You don't have the kind of choice that the "Bible" requires you to have. That's a fact.
You think I'm close-minded, but you are. I don't care what you believe. You can believe whatever you wish to believe. That's YOUR choice. You don't believe in God and I do. What is the point in arguing?
And this brings you to the debate, why?
If you want to just have your beliefs and don't want any criticism of them, then don't come to a debate.
No, you just quote the bible.
I said you are myopic, your sights are set on your God and proving it exists. If you expanded your knowledge beyond scripture, you might find out God likely doesn't exist at all and that book is a work of fiction.
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and her mouth is shaped like an O
He probably COULD, but why? We wouldn't be able to appreciate it! Furthermore it would have absolutely no value! None. What value would rigtheousness have if its counterpoint, wickedness was not a possibility? It would have absolutely no value at all, in fact it couldn't even exist! Righteousness, by definition and conotation, is behavior that is "right" and "good", rather than that is "wrong" or "bad". If there is no such thing as "wrong" or "bad"...
What value would it have for someone to say of you " Wow, that DOSW is a cool guy/gal. He/she is always willing to go out of the way to help someone out, always doing the 'right thing'", if thats was the only possibility? What would that really say of your character? NOTHING! What value would the love i have for my wife and children have it was the only feeling and emotion available to me? NONE! What VALUE would joy have if there wasn't even the potential for despair? A world without the POTENTIAL for evil, hatred, sorrow and grief, might be more peaceful, but it wouldn't be any happier. It couldn't be. The possibility of hatred and sadness is exactly what makes love and happiness so beautiful!
Certainly God COULD have created wind-up, tin toys instead of human beings, but, there wouldn't be much point to that.
Uh, I think Thomas Aquinas may disagree with you!
And so, Augustine, Pascal, and even Kant...
To be more precise, you should say "read the Old Testament".
God description in the New Testament is quite different from the one in the Old Testament, less vengeaful, vindictive and cruel.
And that's what Jesus' teachings were all about, right?
And this is sunday school 101, I believe.
Sensually, yes.
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