Is God infallible?

deadnothingbetter

DOSW wrote:

If God is infallible and perfect, then why is the world so imperfect?

Simple question, but there is so much to it. We talked about this in philosophy class the other day. I am a man of faith.... religion isn't the purpose of my life, but I do believe in a just and powerful God. This was a very interesting question though. The possible solutions are pretty much

a. God's true purpose can never be understood by our human minds.
b. God is in fact not infallible.
c. God simply doesn't exist, either in traditional terms or at all.

What do you guys think of this? I'd be interested in hearing both sides of the argument.

oooh.... i would've had a great time in the class... i bet i would've stayed long after with the professor challenging him.

but i have to ask do you mean both sides to the argument or all sides to the argument? cause if i were in the class i'd say that it would depend which god you're referring to. if it's any other god depending which religion, i'm sure those beliefs have their way of explaining why this world is chaotic while god still maintaining his "infallibleness" (is that even a word?).

i'm particularly more learned in the biblical god.... the bible explains all these types of things. to make long story short.... god is infallible, by nature. there is so much imperfection because of our own human guilt. of course, there's more detail to it. but i'm too lazy to explain.

deadnothingbetter

Ahnimus wrote:

Absolutely the God of the Christian Bible does not exist.

As far as his fallibility, I think this scripture speaks for it's self.


Genesis 18
Abraham Pleads for Sodom

16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."
20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. [e] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare [f] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [g] of all the earth do right?"

26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."

27 Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"
"If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."

29 Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"
He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."

30 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"
He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."

31 Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?"
He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."

32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"
He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."

33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

oh, ahnimus, great master. please explain how the scriptures emphasize God's infallible nature. cause i believe there is a greater truth than what you are trying to imply in this context, which i revere greatly.

OutOfBreath

If there at all exists an entity we would recognize as and call god, I think any human concept would be irrelevant. That includes morality, good/evil, everything. If such a thing exists, it would be so much beyond us to ever understand and fit into our human minds and worldview.

Peace
Dan

harmless_little_f***

ForestBrain wrote:

^ still garbage. The KJV is the original, the others are...man's interpretation, and that a lousy one.

I am sorry. I am a Christian, but it's ideas like this that make it embarrassing to be one. The King James version is the 'original Bible'? What? OK yeah, if you think that people in Bible times had a British medieval mindset and were concerned with political power and the indoctrination of the British Isles.

To each his own.

cornnifer

DOSW wrote:

Yes, good point, but what my professor was trying to say was....

Why didn't God make us incapable of evil then? Free will is usually the argument, but couldn't God have made us believe that we act freely, while still making us incapable of doing wrong? He is all powerful, after all.

If we were incapable of evil and hatred, we would also be incapable of RIGHTEOUSNESS and LOVE. Its very simple really. Without, at least, the possibility of evil and hatred, love would have absolutely no meaning or value. What does it mean to me to be loved, if it were the only possibility? What would it mean for me to say i love, when i was merely programmed to do so without the possibility of hating instead?
Love and righteousness would not exist as it does, at least it would have absolutely no meaning, value, or power whatsoever, if not for the existence of the opposite, hatred and evil, as well. How can one truly appreciate happiness, if they have absolutely no understanding, absolutely no concept, no experience of sorrow?
i have no idea what stage of life you are in (sounds like you are a traditional college student) try at least to imagine a scenario such as this:

Your loving spouse and children: "DOSW, Daddy/Mommy, I love you."

DOSW: " Uh,... so. You love everybody. Everybody loves everybody. There is no other option. What does love mean anyway. Its not like there was any other possibility"

The way it stands, however, love feels good! It has value and meaning. It feels good inside to know someone truly loves you. It feels good inside to truly love someone else. That wouldn't be possible if hatred and evil weren't alternative possibilities! When you really think about it, it IS perfect!!

kay stewart

DOSW wrote:

If God is infallible and perfect, then why is the world so imperfect?

Simple question, but there is so much to it. We talked about this in philosophy class the other day. I am a man of faith.... religion isn't the purpose of my life, but I do believe in a just and powerful God. This was a very interesting question though. The possible solutions are pretty much

a. God's true purpose can never be understood by our human minds.
b. God is in fact not infallible.
c. God simply doesn't exist, either in traditional terms or at all.

What do you guys think of this? I'd be interested in hearing both sides of the argument.

Here's an analogy to ponder : A man goes into a barber shop to get a hair cut & shave, and all-the-while having conversation with the barber. When the subject turned to GOD the barber stated that he doesn't 'believe in GOD'..."if there were a GOD why is there so much pain & suffering in the world?" The man didn't want to 'argue' with the barber on the issue. As the man left the barbershop, clean shaven & trimmed hair, he noticed a man standing near with long dirty hair and a wholly beard...an 'appearence' of unkept & dirty. The man went back into the barber shop & proclaimed "BARBERS DO NOT EXIST!" The barber looked at the man with total bewilderment & said,"What are you talking about?! I'm HERE & I just worked on you!" The man replied, "BUT if you existed WHY is that man outside with the long dirty hair & wholly beard?!" The barber smurked and said, "That's because he CHOOSES not to 'come to me'. " With that the man exclaimed, "EXACTLY!! GOD DOES EXIST!! People CHOOSE not to go to HIM!" -PRAYERS - PATIENCE - PEACE

jlew24asu

all these god threads bug me. cant everyone just keep their beliefs to themselves. damn I just figured out world peace!!!

OutOfBreath

kay stewart wrote:

Here's an analogy to ponder : A man goes into a barber shop to get a hair cut & shave, and all-the-while having conversation with the barber. When the subject turned to GOD the barber stated that he doesn't 'believe in GOD'..."if there were a GOD why is there so much pain & suffering in the world?" The man didn't want to 'argue' with the barber on the issue. As the man left the barbershop, clean shaven & trimmed hair, he noticed a man standing near with long dirty hair and a wholly beard...an 'appearence' of unkept & dirty. The man went back into the barber shop & proclaimed "BARBERS DO NOT EXIST!" The barber looked at the man with total bewilderment & said,"What are you talking about?! I'm HERE & I just worked on you!" The man replied, "BUT if you existed WHY is that man outside with the long dirty hair & wholly beard?!" The barber smurked and said, "That's because he CHOOSES not to 'come to me'. " With that the man exclaimed, "EXACTLY!! GOD DOES EXIST!! People CHOOSE not to go to HIM!" -PRAYERS - PATIENCE - PEACE

Weak. Because stuff exist, so do god? I also think the old pain and suffering argument is weak as well mind.

Peace
Dan

Uncle Leo

ForestBrain wrote:

The world is imperfect because the world does not do what God wants them to do.

So god truely is vengeful. SOmehting like hurricane Katrina would not have happened if people acted appropriately. Fred Phelps was probably right--the I-35 bridge probably collapsed because of Minneapolis' cavalier treatment of gay sinners.

gue_barium

DOSW wrote:

If God is infallible and perfect, then why is the world so imperfect?

Simple question, but there is so much to it. We talked about this in philosophy class the other day. I am a man of faith.... religion isn't the purpose of my life, but I do believe in a just and powerful God. This was a very interesting question though. The possible solutions are pretty much

a. God's true purpose can never be understood by our human minds.
b. God is in fact not infallible.
c. God simply doesn't exist, either in traditional terms or at all.

What do you guys think of this? I'd be interested in hearing both sides of the argument.

God is infallibly fictitious.

kay stewart

DOSW wrote:

If God is infallible and perfect, then why is the world so imperfect?

Simple question, but there is so much to it. We talked about this in philosophy class the other day. I am a man of faith.... religion isn't the purpose of my life, but I do believe in a just and powerful God. This was a very interesting question though. The possible solutions are pretty much

a. God's true purpose can never be understood by our human minds.
b. God is in fact not infallible.
c. God simply doesn't exist, either in traditional terms or at all.

What do you guys think of this? I'd be interested in hearing both sides of the argument.

Here's an analogy to ponder : A man goes into a barber shop to get a hair cut & shave, and all-the-while having conversation with the barber. When the subject turned to GOD the barber stated that he doesn't 'believe in GOD'..."if there were a GOD why is there so much pain & suffering in the world?" The man didn't want to 'argue' with the barber on the issue. As the man left the barbershop, clean shaven & trimmed hair, he noticed a man standing near with long dirty hair and a wholly beard...an 'appearence' of unkept & dirty. The man went back into the barber shop & proclaimed "BARBERS DO NOT EXIST!" The barber looked at the man with total bewilderment & said,"What are you talking about?! I'm HERE & I just worked on you!" The man replied, "BUT if you existed WHY is that man outside with the long dirty hair & wholly beard?!" The barber smurked and said, "That's because he CHOOSES not to 'come to me'. " With that the man exclaimed, "EXACTLY!! GOD DOES EXIST!! People CHOOSE not to go to HIM!" (You might ask 'Why allow a choice?' ...Because love is GIVEN NOT TAKEN-)PRAYERS - PATIENCE - PEACE

DOSW

cornnifer wrote:

If we were incapable of evil and hatred, we would also be incapable of RIGHTEOUSNESS and LOVE. Its very simple really. Without, at least, the possibility of evil and hatred, love would have absolutely no meaning or value. What does it mean to me to be loved, if it were the only possibility? What would it mean for me to say i love, when i was merely programmed to do so without the possibility of hating instead?
Love and righteousness would not exist as it does, at least it would have absolutely no meaning, value, or power whatsoever, if not for the existence of the opposite, hatred and evil, as well. How can one truly appreciate happiness, if they have absolutely no understanding, absolutely no concept, no experience of sorrow?
i have no idea what stage of life you are in (sounds like you are a traditional college student) try at least to imagine a scenario such as this:

Your loving spouse and children: "DOSW, Daddy/Mommy, I love you."

DOSW: " Uh,... so. You love everybody. Everybody loves everybody. There is no other option. What does love mean anyway. Its not like there was any other possibility"

The way it stands, however, love feels good! It has value and meaning. It feels good inside to know someone truly loves you. It feels good inside to truly love someone else. That wouldn't be possible if hatred and evil weren't alternative possibilities! When you really think about it, it IS perfect!!

Couldn't God have made it so that we can only feel either neutral or happy though, WITHOUT diminishing the effect of happiness? If he can do ANYTHING, he could do that.

If he can't do that, then he's by definition not all-powerful. You see what I'm saying?

DOSW

gue_barium wrote:

God is infallibly fictitious.

That really added a lot, thanks.

know1

I believe God is infallible.

Who said the world was imperfect? If God is who created it, then perhaps it is perfect in God's eyes....?

You can't judge God based upon human logic. I can't understand why so many people fail to see that.

deadnothingbetter

know1 wrote:

I believe God is infallible.

Who said the world was imperfect? If God is who created it, then perhaps it is perfect in God's eyes....?

You can't judge God based upon human logic. I can't understand why so many people fail to see that.

you're missing a lot of biblical concepts here....


18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Romans 8:18-22

gue_barium

DOSW wrote:

That really added a lot, thanks.

I knew someone here would appreciate the truth.

My pleasure.

callen

gue_barium wrote:

I knew someone here would appreciate the truth.

My pleasure.

thinking you pretty much nailed it....end of discussion.

VINNY GOOMBA

DOSW wrote:

If God is infallible and perfect, then why is the world so imperfect?

Simple question, but there is so much to it. We talked about this in philosophy class the other day. I am a man of faith.... religion isn't the purpose of my life, but I do believe in a just and powerful God. This was a very interesting question though. The possible solutions are pretty much

a. God's true purpose can never be understood by our human minds.
b. God is in fact not infallible.
c. God simply doesn't exist, either in traditional terms or at all.

What do you guys think of this? I'd be interested in hearing both sides of the argument.

A. is my choice. I don't think a gnat can really comprehend what I am, or know what I know, but I'm sure that little fly knows more about me than I know about God.

know1

deadnothingbetter wrote:

you're missing a lot of biblical concepts here....


18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Romans 8:18-22

And that was going to be my second point - that what if the earth wasn't even supposed to be perfect. What if the perfection comes from heaven?

deadnothingbetter

know1 wrote:

And that was going to be my second point - that what if the earth wasn't even supposed to be perfect. What if the perfection comes from heaven?

well, yeah. but originally, in bibilical context, the world was perfect.