Is God infallible?
DOSW
Posts: 2,014
If God is infallible and perfect, then why is the world so imperfect?
Simple question, but there is so much to it. We talked about this in philosophy class the other day. I am a man of faith.... religion isn't the purpose of my life, but I do believe in a just and powerful God. This was a very interesting question though. The possible solutions are pretty much
a. God's true purpose can never be understood by our human minds.
b. God is in fact not infallible.
c. God simply doesn't exist, either in traditional terms or at all.
What do you guys think of this? I'd be interested in hearing both sides of the argument.
Simple question, but there is so much to it. We talked about this in philosophy class the other day. I am a man of faith.... religion isn't the purpose of my life, but I do believe in a just and powerful God. This was a very interesting question though. The possible solutions are pretty much
a. God's true purpose can never be understood by our human minds.
b. God is in fact not infallible.
c. God simply doesn't exist, either in traditional terms or at all.
What do you guys think of this? I'd be interested in hearing both sides of the argument.
It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
Comments
that's the only one that makes any rational sense
angels share laughter
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
As far as his fallibility, I think this scripture speaks for it's self.
Genesis 18
Abraham Pleads for Sodom
16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."
20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. [e] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare [f] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [g] of all the earth do right?"
26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."
27 Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"
"If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."
29 Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"
He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."
30 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"
He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."
31 Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?"
He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."
32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"
He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."
33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
According to the Bible...if you don't do what God says, you get cursed.
I hate it when people blame God for the state of the world. They need to look at themselves instead.
Ahnimus, AT Least, please, use the real Bible, not that phony crap you just typed in. Thanks.
New King James Version
16 Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way. 17 And the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, 18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice, that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.” 20 And the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD. 23 And Abraham came near and said, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it? 25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
26 So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.”
27 Then Abraham answered and said, “Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: 28 Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous; would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?”
So He said, “If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it.”
29 And he spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose there should be forty found there?”
So He said, “I will not do it for the sake of forty.”
30 Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?”
So He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
31 And he said, “Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?”
So He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty.”
32 Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?”
And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.” 33 So the LORD went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.
Actually, the world is perfectly perfect, atleast if you listen to what Cosmologists like Stephen Hawking are saying. But then if you listen to science, then you probably wouldn't believe in God anyway. The initial configuration of the universe must have been such that it couldn't have been any other way, or they may be only a few possible configurations that would allow for the emergence of intelligent life, since most configurations would recollapse on themselves within a nanosecond. From the point of the configurations that work, everything evolves systematically with the laws of science, including humans, and our evolution is not a free enterprise, we move with the universe, we cannot move otherwise.
actually the kjv isn't the original; the bible was written in greek and hebrew so the KJV was the original english translation, but newer translations (NIV, NASB etc...) use the original texts to translate.
1.618
And quoting Ecclesiastes: 2 "Meaningless! Meaningless! says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless".
I like to think we have an intelligent creator but I won't pigeon-hole my belief into one tidy little cubbyhole labeled "Christian" or "Protestant" or "Buddhist" or what have you.
I personally feel that whatever created us left us alone to do what we will with this gift called Earth, or the Universe, and that what we make of it and what we do with it is not overseen from day to day. Whether it's judged at the end of our lifetime, I cannot say. I haven't died yet. But I don't go around preaching beliefs and trying to save souls in the hopes that this "God" or creator will judge me less harshly when I die. I don't act in the hopes I'll be rewarded in heaven when my number is up.
I just sit back in awe over the fact that we each have our own unique fingerprint, and that every snowflake is just as unique. And I try to honor the gift-giver that made this all happen, by not deliberately harming another being. Sometimes, of course, I get angry and lash out verbally, but I'm not one for physical violence and I'm certainly not a warmonger. I get angry at injustices and sometimes want to claim an eye for an eye, but I usually regret that instinct, once I cool down.
When the LORD went after Sodom and all that, I feel the LORD was being really harsh and cruel. This makes it hard for me to reconcile the LORD with the teachings of Jesus when he made his Sermon on the Mount, and even harder for me to reconcile the LORD with the teachings of Buddha. "Right and just", my ass. Sometimes the LORD comes off as being a real asshole, in my view.
I guess I'd make a really shitty preacher. But at least I'm able to believe that this world is a really cool place, assholes aside.
The story is the same either way. Abraham bargained with God to do the "righteous" thing. This would not be necessary if God were infallible, and if Abraham himself believed God was infallible, he wouldn't have questioned God.
KJV
22And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes:
28Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
Yes, good point, but what my professor was trying to say was....
Why didn't God make us incapable of evil then? Free will is usually the argument, but couldn't God have made us believe that we act freely, while still making us incapable of doing wrong? He is all powerful, after all.
If there is a God, she's succeeded in making us believe we are free, while in-fact we are not.
I believe he was powerful enough to make unique fingerprints....but I don't believe he was powerful enough to make us incapable of doing wrong. I mean, look at Bush, for example.
All kidding aside, though: In Genesis, God told Adam and Eve they could do anything, but he said "Do not partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil". Some people like to think that he was talking about an apple, and more enlightened people think the tree of knowledge of good and evil was our conscience.
What if it goes a little further than that? What if God didn't want us to know good and evil because then we would have the power to JUDGE?
Is the power to judge worth all the suffering in the world though?
I'm just repeating my professor's arguments.... devil's advocate. I wanna hear what you guys think.
I don't know about you, but I myself would SURE as shit not want to be the judge of everyone else. I quake at the thought of serving jury duty on a murder case, for one. I read some of the posts here, and some of the comments on other blogs, and I judge some people as being complete assholes....until I realize that my own posts could have ME judged as being the same.
Who in the hell would want to judge others? I do it when I'm pissed off, and I instantly regret it. To each his own, after all. Live and let live.
When the LORD took down an entire city because of some illicit deals going down, did he feel guilty afterwards? I certainly hope so.
Oh, I think I misunderstood what you said before about judging.
I tend to ramble. Sometimes my main point gets lost in the mix.
Why you might ask? We don't know the end. Imagine if you will that the history of man in book form. We have no idea if this current time is the beginning, middle, or end of that book.
People throughout history have predicted the end times are near. And every time, EVERY TIME they have been wrong. Why? Because they can only think in the present tense.
I believe we will live on as a species for a long long time. All the while people will wonder when the end is coming, and it wont come until we least (although 'we' as in the people alive now will be long long long looooooooooooooooooong dead) expect it.
That is the nature of things, dare I say it, the nature of god. That is if I could assign any sort of trait to god. Being an insignificant human in the grand scheme of things I know how silly it is to try and place anything on 'God'
Anyway! thats what I think! At least, thats what I think after having a few drinks!
obviously God is not infalliable. he created man afterall.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
but i have to ask do you mean both sides to the argument or all sides to the argument? cause if i were in the class i'd say that it would depend which god you're referring to. if it's any other god depending which religion, i'm sure those beliefs have their way of explaining why this world is chaotic while god still maintaining his "infallibleness" (is that even a word?).
i'm particularly more learned in the biblical god.... the bible explains all these types of things. to make long story short.... god is infallible, by nature. there is so much imperfection because of our own human guilt. of course, there's more detail to it. but i'm too lazy to explain.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I am sorry. I am a Christian, but it's ideas like this that make it embarrassing to be one. The King James version is the 'original Bible'? What? OK yeah, if you think that people in Bible times had a British medieval mindset and were concerned with political power and the indoctrination of the British Isles.
To each his own.
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
If we were incapable of evil and hatred, we would also be incapable of RIGHTEOUSNESS and LOVE. Its very simple really. Without, at least, the possibility of evil and hatred, love would have absolutely no meaning or value. What does it mean to me to be loved, if it were the only possibility? What would it mean for me to say i love, when i was merely programmed to do so without the possibility of hating instead?
Love and righteousness would not exist as it does, at least it would have absolutely no meaning, value, or power whatsoever, if not for the existence of the opposite, hatred and evil, as well. How can one truly appreciate happiness, if they have absolutely no understanding, absolutely no concept, no experience of sorrow?
i have no idea what stage of life you are in (sounds like you are a traditional college student) try at least to imagine a scenario such as this:
Your loving spouse and children: "DOSW, Daddy/Mommy, I love you."
DOSW: " Uh,... so. You love everybody. Everybody loves everybody. There is no other option. What does love mean anyway. Its not like there was any other possibility"
The way it stands, however, love feels good! It has value and meaning. It feels good inside to know someone truly loves you. It feels good inside to truly love someone else. That wouldn't be possible if hatred and evil weren't alternative possibilities! When you really think about it, it IS perfect!!
Here's an analogy to ponder : A man goes into a barber shop to get a hair cut & shave, and all-the-while having conversation with the barber. When the subject turned to GOD the barber stated that he doesn't 'believe in GOD'..."if there were a GOD why is there so much pain & suffering in the world?" The man didn't want to 'argue' with the barber on the issue. As the man left the barbershop, clean shaven & trimmed hair, he noticed a man standing near with long dirty hair and a wholly beard...an 'appearence' of unkept & dirty. The man went back into the barber shop & proclaimed "BARBERS DO NOT EXIST!" The barber looked at the man with total bewilderment & said,"What are you talking about?! I'm HERE & I just worked on you!" The man replied, "BUT if you existed WHY is that man outside with the long dirty hair & wholly beard?!" The barber smurked and said, "That's because he CHOOSES not to 'come to me'. " With that the man exclaimed, "EXACTLY!! GOD DOES EXIST!! People CHOOSE not to go to HIM!" -PRAYERS - PATIENCE - PEACE
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.