I understand why he does. cuz he is hard headed like me and feels very passionately that Israel is a terrorist state and have no legitimacy until they return to the 1967 borders. thats it. anything else you say is wrong. you and I will disagree with his stance, but thats allowed. byrzine, i'm not knockin ya buddy. I feel the same way, except its on opposite side of the argument. I enjoy sparin with ya. I think ultimately we all want peace.
Actually I just love sparring with ya because I'm fascinated with the seemingly endless variations of my name that you can manage to produce! So, the latest version is 'byrzine'! Cool!
I have a good question here. What Muslim could gain a thing by dropping a nuke on Israel? Everything that is sacred and cherished to Muslims historically, in Israel, particualrly Jerusalem, is sacred to Jews as well...I mean...what would be the point then, of turning all those religious and historical monuments to dust?
The reason Israel should pull back is demographic and moral. Israel has no right to rule over the Palestinians against their will, and if Israel is to remain both a democracy and a Jewish state is must cease occupying nearly 3 million Palestinians. I don't think Israel should pull back entirely to the 67' line, which was never a border anyways, only an armistice line, because they need to make very slight alterations to the line for security reasons (ie controlling the heights overlooking the only international airport in the country so that someone can't easily close down the country with a shoulder mounted missile). This would be an addition to Israel of about 3% of the West Bank, which they could compensate the Palestinians for with land that is now part of Israel.
I'm glad we've arrived at a consensus here. The only problem I still have is with your belief that Israel should control the Golan heights. This is where the water in the area comes from. And as we all know, if you control the water then you pretty much control everything. Does Israel really need the Golan heights for security reasons? I'm not so sure.
didnt take a crazy man to drop the last two, did it? thats what i think about.
and you're right, politics is a game of perceptions. but to me when those doing the demonising are hypocrites, then they lose me. thats if they even had me to begins with.
I'll admit to playing a demonizing groupie to the Bush facade the past few years. All in all though, if the policy is bad, the policy is bad, no?
I have a good question here. What Muslim could gain a thing by dropping a nuke on Israel? Everything that is sacred and cherished to Muslims historically, in Israel, particualrly Jerusalem, is sacred to Jews as well...I mean...what would be the point then, of turning all those religious and historical monuments to dust?
oh gue, you are asking a question thinking that the person whose decision it will be to wipe israel off the map is sane enough to think of such things. or even gives a shit. remember where mecca is. they'll still have that. pilgrimages can still be taken.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
alright, then could you please explain to me how talking about "Israeli terror" is a constructive way to begin a discussion. Saying that Israel practices state terror is not an answer.
I believe it's a constructive way to begin a discussion because it immediately tilts the board of inbuilt bias common in many people who are exposed to the mainstream media in the west that Israel is defending itself against terrorists.
The truth, as we all know, is somewhat different. So I used the phrase 'Israeli terror' as a way of attempting to create a more level, and honest playing field upon which to encourage a debate.
oh gue, you are asking a question thinking that the person whose decision it will be to wipe israel off the map is sane enough to think of such things. or even gives a shit. remember where mecca is. they'll still have that. pilgrimages can still be taken.
Islam and Judaism are both the children of Abraham.
So what you're saying is that if I'm objective and honest then I will immediately agree that Israel is a terrorist state?!!! Forgive me, but just because you believe yourself to be right it doesn't mean that I have to agree. I could just as easily say that if you were objective and honest you would see what is wrong with the lead post.
O.k then. Please explain how you think that Israel does not, and never has, engaged in terrorism.
In fact, whilst keeping at the forefront of your mind the fact that Israel is still currently engaged in a brutal 40 year military occupation, please explain how you think that Israel is exempt from being labeled a terrorist state.
The general collapse of government functions in the Gaza Strip Tuesday urged several senior Palestinian figures to seriously contemplate Professor Ali Jarbawi's advice to disband the Palestinian Authority.
Even before the civil war which Hamas and Fatah are starting in the Strip, Professor Jarbawi of Bir Zeit University maintained that the Palestinian Authority was a mere illusion of power: occupation under the guise of self government, and therefore useless.
On Tuesday, a Palestinian journalist likened the Palestinian Authority to a smoke-belching car wreck, adding that it was time to toss the keys to the Israelis. His view is shared by many Palestinian civilians in Gaza, who in recent days have told the media that they are fed up. "We've had enough, we should be so lucky as to see the return of the Israeli occupation."
(me again)
It's tragic that the situation has gotten so bad that people actually want to be occupied again. It brings up a strange issue though. I oppose the occupation on moral and strategic grounds, but morally speaking what would be better, to stand back and let the Palestinians keep killing each other, or to step in as an occupier again and put a stop to it. I can't bring myself to say that Israel should re-occupy Gaza, but it's an interesting dilemma.
Divide and conquer is not a new tactic. The Israelis have learn't, and applied, the lesson well.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
pity you dont stay in bed more days....your ranting and raving and professing to have all the correct answers to the problems in the middle east is quite laughable. particularly coming from a westerner.
pity you dont stay in bed more days....your ranting and raving and professing to have all the correct answers to the problems in the middle east is quite laughable. particularly coming from a westerner.
oxymoron comes to mind.
Laugh on Bubba. Coz I ain't going anywhere!
Edit: And as for me being a Westerner...Errm..I don't get your point. Please enlighten me.
pity you dont stay in bed more days....your ranting and raving and professing to have all the correct answers to the problems in the middle east is quite laughable. particularly coming from a westerner.
oxymoron comes to mind.
Pity that there are no 'correct' answers. I don't see anyone professing to that but you.
I have a good question here. What Muslim could gain a thing by dropping a nuke on Israel? Everything that is sacred and cherished to Muslims historically, in Israel, particualrly Jerusalem, is sacred to Jews as well...I mean...what would be the point then, of turning all those religious and historical monuments to dust?
There is nothing sacred to Muslims in Tel Aviv. If they nuked Tel Aviv it would pretty much be the end of Israel and they wouldn't be destroying any of their holy sites.
I'm glad we've arrived at a consensus here. The only problem I still have is with your belief that Israel should control the Golan heights. This is where the water in the area comes from. And as we all know, if you control the water then you pretty much control everything. Does Israel really need the Golan heights for security reasons? I'm not so sure.
Sorry, I didn't mean the Golan heights. I meant the heights that lie right next to the Green Line in the West Bank. Although I happen not to think that Israel should give back the Golan, again for a number of reasons which for now I'll refrain from getting into.
There is nothing sacred to Muslims in Tel Aviv. If they nuked Tel Aviv it would pretty much be the end of Israel and they wouldn't be destroying any of their holy sites.
dropping a NUKE on tel aviv would pretty much affect the entire nation, as it's really a very small country. muslims aren't retarded and wouldn't do that.
I believe it's a constructive way to begin a discussion because it immediately tilts the board of inbuilt bias common in many people who are exposed to the mainstream media in the west that Israel is defending itself against terrorists.
The truth, as we all know, is somewhat different. So I used the phrase 'Israeli terror' as a way of attempting to create a more level, and honest playing field upon which to encourage a debate.
I'm sorry for putting it like this, but your statement is patently ridiculous. You may believe that the media is biased in favor of Israel, but I for example happen to believe just the opposite. Leaving that aside, it is not honest to premise a debate on the "fact" of Israeli terror, since that is the very issue being debated. A honest and fair place to start would be with an entirely clean slate.
dropping a NUKE on tel aviv would pretty much affect the entire nation, as it's really a very small country. muslims aren't retarded and wouldn't do that.
Perhaps, but then again I think it is undeniable that a certain breed of Islamic extremist has no problem killing himself and others to achieve his goal and do what he percieves to be his religious duty, so who knows?
Perhaps, but then again I think it is undeniable that a certain breed of Islamic extremist has no problem killing himself and others to achieve his goal and do what he percieves to be his religious duty, so who knows?
People need to stop living in fear as to what someone 'might' do and own up to their own actions on both sides. Just because one side is committing wrongs, it still doesn't excuse you to go on making more wrongs in their place and calling it justified.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I'm not sure I want to get into an argument over the opinions you assert as fact.
sorry dude. not opinions. they're facts. all i stated were death tolls and number of innocent people in jails given from sources like bbcnews, etc.
Suffice it to say that I don't think that you can decide on the justice of a situation solely based on numbers since they entirely ignore intent.
...it's not solely based on numbers. it's based on history of israeli treatment of the palestinian people. and ignore intent? PLEEEEASE. what? the israelis just happened to 'accidently' kill 6000 innocent people and 'accidently' threw thousands of innocent people in jail?
come on. you can't be that ignorant.
I would also say that (and here I don't know who you are so forgive me if I'm wrong) I assume that you have never been to Israel and the Palestinian territories, but having lived there extensively myself the situation is much more complicated then you allow for.
most people haven't been there, so i understand you assuming I haven't. unfortunately for you though, i have been there and seen things through my own eyes. it is more complicated. i wasn't really trying to simplify it, but at the same time people still do make it more complicated than it already is (sorry if that doesnt make sense. it does in my head but i just dont know how to say it correctly.) still though, when you see the difference between israel and palestine, you can really see the difference and see for yourself who is really being oppressed.
Finally I don't think it really matters who is more justified (although I have my own opinion). What matters is that people are able to find some day to day security. Once we get there we can start talking about peace.
well, true. peace does need to be talked about, but how can that happen when you have israeli supporters running about complaining of things like "palestine teaches its kids how to die for allah!!" and suicide bombings and such (which is all filled with pure propaganda) and at the same time want peace? and not only that but they completely ignore the fact that palestinians are the ones being oppressed.
you see the media all the time. you saw this video with george galloway. he proved to you just how biased the media is. the media helps control people's minds and alter's people's opinions in the US. how are the people in the US supposed to want peace between the two people when the media just shows palestinian suicide bombers all the time but never israeli attacks on palestinians?
Comments
Actually I just love sparring with ya because I'm fascinated with the seemingly endless variations of my name that you can manage to produce! So, the latest version is 'byrzine'! Cool!
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I've heard "moshe" means "9" in superancient hebrew.
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thats a GOOD question. and my answer would be, muslims dont drop nukes on anyone, islamic extremists and terrorists do.
I'm glad we've arrived at a consensus here. The only problem I still have is with your belief that Israel should control the Golan heights. This is where the water in the area comes from. And as we all know, if you control the water then you pretty much control everything. Does Israel really need the Golan heights for security reasons? I'm not so sure.
I'll admit to playing a demonizing groupie to the Bush facade the past few years. All in all though, if the policy is bad, the policy is bad, no?
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oh gue, you are asking a question thinking that the person whose decision it will be to wipe israel off the map is sane enough to think of such things. or even gives a shit. remember where mecca is. they'll still have that. pilgrimages can still be taken.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I believe it's a constructive way to begin a discussion because it immediately tilts the board of inbuilt bias common in many people who are exposed to the mainstream media in the west that Israel is defending itself against terrorists.
The truth, as we all know, is somewhat different. So I used the phrase 'Israeli terror' as a way of attempting to create a more level, and honest playing field upon which to encourage a debate.
Maybe. Maybe.
It hasn't even come close to happening yet, though, so, I would check that attitude.
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Islam and Judaism are both the children of Abraham.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
O.k then. Please explain how you think that Israel does not, and never has, engaged in terrorism.
In fact, whilst keeping at the forefront of your mind the fact that Israel is still currently engaged in a brutal 40 year military occupation, please explain how you think that Israel is exempt from being labeled a terrorist state.
Divide and conquer is not a new tactic. The Israelis have learn't, and applied, the lesson well.
The theory is that if you turn mecca into a sheet of glass the Muslims will lose all faith in Allah the almighty and fall apart.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162795,00.html
Tancredo...
http://tancredo.house.gov/default.aspx
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Really? When?
religion as history. *shakes her head* i know i know. through ishmael to muhammed and through isaac the other way.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
oxymoron comes to mind.
I guess, in a very simple way, what we have here is a case of sibling rivalry run amok.
Abraham must have been a musician.
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Laugh on Bubba. Coz I ain't going anywhere!
Edit: And as for me being a Westerner...Errm..I don't get your point. Please enlighten me.
Pity that there are no 'correct' answers. I don't see anyone professing to that but you.
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read the last 10 pages of this thread and all there is is you and your monkey brother byrnzie chest poking each other about whos right and wrong.
ya both just a pair of wankers.
That is hardly the case. I only got on this thread tonight.
And, I dont' go for the right or wrong approach. Yet. There must be good or bad.
Ed's never said anything more true.
What have you contributed? Other than being a bystander?
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I have contributed the deepest, most well thought out post in the thread by calling you and byrnzie wankers.
Flattery will get you nowhere!
There is nothing sacred to Muslims in Tel Aviv. If they nuked Tel Aviv it would pretty much be the end of Israel and they wouldn't be destroying any of their holy sites.
Sorry, I didn't mean the Golan heights. I meant the heights that lie right next to the Green Line in the West Bank. Although I happen not to think that Israel should give back the Golan, again for a number of reasons which for now I'll refrain from getting into.
dropping a NUKE on tel aviv would pretty much affect the entire nation, as it's really a very small country. muslims aren't retarded and wouldn't do that.
I'm sorry for putting it like this, but your statement is patently ridiculous. You may believe that the media is biased in favor of Israel, but I for example happen to believe just the opposite. Leaving that aside, it is not honest to premise a debate on the "fact" of Israeli terror, since that is the very issue being debated. A honest and fair place to start would be with an entirely clean slate.
Perhaps, but then again I think it is undeniable that a certain breed of Islamic extremist has no problem killing himself and others to achieve his goal and do what he percieves to be his religious duty, so who knows?
People need to stop living in fear as to what someone 'might' do and own up to their own actions on both sides. Just because one side is committing wrongs, it still doesn't excuse you to go on making more wrongs in their place and calling it justified.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
sorry dude. not opinions. they're facts. all i stated were death tolls and number of innocent people in jails given from sources like bbcnews, etc.
...it's not solely based on numbers. it's based on history of israeli treatment of the palestinian people. and ignore intent? PLEEEEASE. what? the israelis just happened to 'accidently' kill 6000 innocent people and 'accidently' threw thousands of innocent people in jail?
come on. you can't be that ignorant.
most people haven't been there, so i understand you assuming I haven't. unfortunately for you though, i have been there and seen things through my own eyes. it is more complicated. i wasn't really trying to simplify it, but at the same time people still do make it more complicated than it already is (sorry if that doesnt make sense. it does in my head but i just dont know how to say it correctly.) still though, when you see the difference between israel and palestine, you can really see the difference and see for yourself who is really being oppressed.
well, true. peace does need to be talked about, but how can that happen when you have israeli supporters running about complaining of things like "palestine teaches its kids how to die for allah!!" and suicide bombings and such (which is all filled with pure propaganda) and at the same time want peace? and not only that but they completely ignore the fact that palestinians are the ones being oppressed.
you see the media all the time. you saw this video with george galloway. he proved to you just how biased the media is. the media helps control people's minds and alter's people's opinions in the US. how are the people in the US supposed to want peace between the two people when the media just shows palestinian suicide bombers all the time but never israeli attacks on palestinians?