I don't think it would bring peace to the region because I think at this point "resistance" has become a goal among many Palestinians so that they will continue to violently "resist" even once the occupation is over. It's like Hezbollah in Lebanon. Once Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000 Hezbollah simply found a new justification for continuing to fight. For them it is the Shebaa Farms, which is a tiny territory they claim is a part of Lebanon still under occupation. In fact the land is recognized by the UN to have been part of Syria before 67', but that doesn't really matter to Hezbollah because all they are looking for is a pretext to keep fighting. The reason Israel should pull back is demographic and moral. Israel has no right to rule over the Palestinians against their will, and if Israel is to remain both a democracy and a Jewish state is must cease occupying nearly 3 million Palestinians. I don't think Israel should pull back entirely to the 67' line, which was never a border anyways, only an armistice line, because they need to make very slight alterations to the line for security reasons (ie controlling the heights overlooking the only international airport in the country so that someone can't easily close down the country with a shoulder mounted missile). This would be an addition to Israel of about 3% of the West Bank, which they could compensate the Palestinians for with land that is now part of Israel.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I don't care if people disagree with me. That is there right and the more power to them. All I'm saying is that we should strive to discuss issues in a constructive and positive manner without immediately throwing out terms meant to alienate and infuriate those with whom we disagree.
See, this is where our opinion is what is making you angry. No matter how infuriated it makes you, many of us believe Israel engages in terrorist activities...out there in the open for all to see often times. It's not personal...you are not Israel, so I would advise you not to get so upset when people have negative things to say about the stuff Israel has been doing for years.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I don't care if people disagree with me. That is there right and the more power to them. All I'm saying is that we should strive to discuss issues in a constructive and positive manner without immediately throwing out terms meant to alienate and infuriate those with whom we disagree.
Alienation and infuriation are the things to be constructively, or at least objectively, avoided. I have no problem with the lead post. If you are objective, and honest, you shouldn't have any problem with it either.
All I'm saying is that we should strive to discuss issues in a constructive and positive manner without immediately throwing out terms meant to alienate and infuriate those with whom we disagree.
u will never get that with the people of the moving train, dont bother trying, it doesnt work, trust me
Ron: I just don't feel like going out tonight
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
Alienation and infuriation are the things to be constructively, or at least objectively, avoided. I have no problem with the lead post. If you are objective, and honest, you shouldn't have any problem with it either.
So what you're saying is that if I'm objective and honest then I will immediately agree that Israel is a terrorist state?!!! Forgive me, but just because you believe yourself to be right it doesn't mean that I have to agree. I could just as easily say that if you were objective and honest you would see what is wrong with the lead post.
See, this is where our opinion is what is making you angry. No matter how infuriated it makes you, many of us believe Israel engages in terrorist activities...out there in the open for all to see often times. It's not personal...you are not Israel, so I would advise you not to get so upset when people have negative things to say about the stuff Israel has been doing for years.
And what I'm saying is that if you want to calmly and rationally, without unneccessary invective, discuss specific instances where you believe Israel has acted wrongly, that would be great. Throwing out general slurs about "Israeli terror" is not how civilized discussions are begun.
So what you're saying is that if I'm objective and honest then I will immediately agree that Israel is a terrorist state?!!! Forgive me, but just because you believe yourself to be right it doesn't mean that I have to agree. I could just as easily say that if you were objective and honest you would see what is wrong with the lead post.
As thee only nuclear superpower in the Middle East, why must Israel resort to pre-emptive annihilation of it's enemies? It's ridiculous, just as it's ridiculous for America to do the same in Iraq. It is terrorism, plain and simple.
As thee only nuclear superpower in the Middle East, why must Israel resort to pre-emptive annihilation of it's enemies? It's ridiculous, just as it's ridiculous for America to do the same in Iraq. It is terrorism, plain and simple.
I'm not sure what you're talking about with regard to Israel, and I don't want to go anywhere near the issue of Iraq. Not with a ten foot pole.
As thee only nuclear superpower in the Middle East, why must Israel resort to pre-emptive annihilation of it's enemies? It's ridiculous, just as it's ridiculous for America to do the same in Iraq. It is terrorism, plain and simple.
for israel being nuclear is a paper tiger. they can't really do anything to their immediate neighbours without cutting off their own foot. are they gonna nuke someone when it could in all likelihood result in the destruction of their own state by their own actions? or are they gonna build one of those big arse walls around themselves to protect from that radioactive cloud?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
The general collapse of government functions in the Gaza Strip Tuesday urged several senior Palestinian figures to seriously contemplate Professor Ali Jarbawi's advice to disband the Palestinian Authority.
Even before the civil war which Hamas and Fatah are starting in the Strip, Professor Jarbawi of Bir Zeit University maintained that the Palestinian Authority was a mere illusion of power: occupation under the guise of self government, and therefore useless.
On Tuesday, a Palestinian journalist likened the Palestinian Authority to a smoke-belching car wreck, adding that it was time to toss the keys to the Israelis. His view is shared by many Palestinian civilians in Gaza, who in recent days have told the media that they are fed up. "We've had enough, we should be so lucky as to see the return of the Israeli occupation."
(me again)
It's tragic that the situation has gotten so bad that people actually want to be occupied again. It brings up a strange issue though. I oppose the occupation on moral and strategic grounds, but morally speaking what would be better, to stand back and let the Palestinians keep killing each other, or to step in as an occupier again and put a stop to it. I can't bring myself to say that Israel should re-occupy Gaza, but it's an interesting dilemma.
Big enough to get the job done. I've had no complaints.
lol...you really didn't have to answer that...
but thanks for playing along
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
And what I'm saying is that if you want to calmly and rationally, without unneccessary invective, discuss specific instances where you believe Israel has acted wrongly, that would be great. Throwing out general slurs about "Israeli terror" is not how civilized discussions are begun.
I'm calm and rational as can be.
Are you saying that using the term terrorism where I see fit is somehow uncivil?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
The electrical system I can't speak to. As for ambulances, there have been repeated well documented instances of Palestinian terrorists using ambulances and other "protected" vehicles to transport weapons and attackers. Just yesterday an Israeli army post was attacked by militants using a jeep with TV markings on it.
there have also been documented instances of the idf beating and throwing tear gasat non violent protestors when they protested their olive trees getting torn down...then the same idf throwing tear gas into the ambulance after it loads injured ppl into it...
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
If I entertain this line of thought any further, paperplates will be along soon to pin one on me
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Are you saying that using the term terrorism where I see fit is somehow uncivil?
I'm saying that regardless of what you believe you should be able to come to a discussion with enough of an understanding of what other people believe to not immediately start throwing around terms which you know (or should know) will start a fight. Civility speaks to the tone of interactions between people. You can believe whatever you wish, but when you begin discussions with a hostile tone then, no, you are not being civil.
there have also been documented instances of the idf beating and throwing tear gasat non violent protestors when they protested their olive trees getting torn down...then the same idf throwing tear gas into the ambulance after it loads injured ppl into it...
That's possible. And that would be wrong. It is also not official Israeli policy, nor is it the norm in practice.
for israel being nuclear is a paper tiger. they can't really do anything to thier immediate neighbours without cutting off their own foot. are they gonna nuke someone when it could in all likelihood result in the destruction of their own state by their own actions? or are they gonna build one of those big are walls around themselves to protect from that radioactive cloud?
Well, this isn't what I'm talking about. I mean, think of it this way: how is it that there are still apologists for the Bush administration, to this day, in the wake of what pretty much everyone knows now? It is because the conception today is that nuclear weaponry, and the ownership of such, casts a very long shadow over the psyche of a politic, of a people. It has been ingrained upon the mentality of the world this mushroom cloud image birthed in Japan 60 some years ago. That's the high card of all high cards, and it is the Evil of all Evils.
And so that is the way it is played. People tend to forget the fact that Japan is now a thriving, prosperous democracy in spite of getting blown to smithereens by a couple of Atomic bombs in 1945.
It isn't nuclear weapons so much that is at play in the Middle East, it is the perception that is conveyed by the ownership of nuclear weapons.
In any case, there is a big "fuck you" to Israel, and America coming not only from the middle east, but all over the world for being told that it isn't right for anyone but them to own such arsenal, and the perception game that is played with that sort of power. The world is saying "fuck you" to the perception, of the hypocrisy.
The idea is that everyone disarm. Only the masters of war are making this a game of nuclear weaponry. Nukes aren't really anything in this.
I'm saying that regardless of what you believe you should be able to come to a discussion with enough of an understanding of what other people believe to not immediately start throwing around terms which you know (or should know) will start a fight. Civility speaks to the tone of interactions between people. You can believe whatever you wish, but when you begin discussions with a hostile tone then, no, you are not being civil.
Since some people here view Israels actions as indeed terrorism, I just don't see the opening post as being uncivil.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Well, this isn't what I'm talking about. I mean, think of it this way: how is it that there are still apologists for the Bush administration, to this day, in the wake of what pretty much everyone knows now? It is because the conception today is that nuclear weaponry, and the ownership of such, casts a very long shadow over the psyche of a politic, of a people. It has been ingrained upon the mentality of the world this mushroom cloud image birthed in Japan 60 some years ago. That's the high card of all high cards, and it is the Evil of all Evils.
And so that is the way it is played. People tend to forget the fact that Japan is now a thriving, prosperous democracy in spite of getting blown to smithereens by a couple of Atomic bombs in 1945.
It isn't nuclear weapons so much that is at play in the Middle East, it is the perception that is conveyed by the ownership of nuclear weapons.
In any case, there is a big "fuck you" to Israel, and America coming not only from the middle east, but all over the world for being told that it isn't right for anyone but them to own such arsenal, and the perception game that is played with that sort of power. The world is saying "fuck you" to the perception, of the hypocrisy.
The idea is that everyone disarm. Only the masters of war are making this a game of nuclear weaponry. Nukes aren't really anything in this.
the majority of people are not that sophisticated. they believe what they are told because they have never had any real reason not to. even when the lies are shown to them they are peepared to give the government the benefit of a very big doubt. the government inflates these evildoers and most people dont have the vision to get their information elsewhere. they have no sense of history and no motivation to find out. if soemone in power tells them so then so be it.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
the majority of people are not that sophisticated. they believe what they are told because they have never had any real reason not to. even when the lies are shown to them they are peepared to give the government the benefit of a very big doubt. the government inflates these evildoers and most people dont have the vision to get their information elsewhere. they have no sense of history and no motivation to find out. if soemone in power tells them so then so be it.
I think the perception evolves, and becomes what it is. Even I kind of shudder to think of the crazy man with a few nuclear bombs. But, the reality is, is this (politics) is a war of perceptions, and the way it always seems to play out is in who can demonize the enemy greater than the enemy demonizes thee. At least when it comes to militant politics, and the actions that follow.
I think the perception evolves, and becomes what it is. Even I kind of shudder to think of the crazy man with a few nuclear bombs. But, the reality is, is this (politics) is a war of perceptions, and the way it always seems to play out is in who can demonize the enemy greater than the enemy demonizes thee. At least when it comes to militant politics, and the actions that follow.
didnt take a crazy man to drop the last two, did it? thats what i think about.
and you're right, politics is a game of perceptions. but to me when those doing the demonising are hypocrites, then they lose me. thats if they even had me to begins with.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Comments
yeah...down there...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
See, this is where our opinion is what is making you angry. No matter how infuriated it makes you, many of us believe Israel engages in terrorist activities...out there in the open for all to see often times. It's not personal...you are not Israel, so I would advise you not to get so upset when people have negative things to say about the stuff Israel has been doing for years.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Alienation and infuriation are the things to be constructively, or at least objectively, avoided. I have no problem with the lead post. If you are objective, and honest, you shouldn't have any problem with it either.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
So what you're saying is that if I'm objective and honest then I will immediately agree that Israel is a terrorist state?!!! Forgive me, but just because you believe yourself to be right it doesn't mean that I have to agree. I could just as easily say that if you were objective and honest you would see what is wrong with the lead post.
And what I'm saying is that if you want to calmly and rationally, without unneccessary invective, discuss specific instances where you believe Israel has acted wrongly, that would be great. Throwing out general slurs about "Israeli terror" is not how civilized discussions are begun.
As thee only nuclear superpower in the Middle East, why must Israel resort to pre-emptive annihilation of it's enemies? It's ridiculous, just as it's ridiculous for America to do the same in Iraq. It is terrorism, plain and simple.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I'm not sure what you're talking about with regard to Israel, and I don't want to go anywhere near the issue of Iraq. Not with a ten foot pole.
for israel being nuclear is a paper tiger. they can't really do anything to their immediate neighbours without cutting off their own foot. are they gonna nuke someone when it could in all likelihood result in the destruction of their own state by their own actions? or are they gonna build one of those big arse walls around themselves to protect from that radioactive cloud?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Big enough to get the job done. I've had no complaints.
The general collapse of government functions in the Gaza Strip Tuesday urged several senior Palestinian figures to seriously contemplate Professor Ali Jarbawi's advice to disband the Palestinian Authority.
Even before the civil war which Hamas and Fatah are starting in the Strip, Professor Jarbawi of Bir Zeit University maintained that the Palestinian Authority was a mere illusion of power: occupation under the guise of self government, and therefore useless.
On Tuesday, a Palestinian journalist likened the Palestinian Authority to a smoke-belching car wreck, adding that it was time to toss the keys to the Israelis. His view is shared by many Palestinian civilians in Gaza, who in recent days have told the media that they are fed up. "We've had enough, we should be so lucky as to see the return of the Israeli occupation."
(me again)
It's tragic that the situation has gotten so bad that people actually want to be occupied again. It brings up a strange issue though. I oppose the occupation on moral and strategic grounds, but morally speaking what would be better, to stand back and let the Palestinians keep killing each other, or to step in as an occupier again and put a stop to it. I can't bring myself to say that Israel should re-occupy Gaza, but it's an interesting dilemma.
lol...you really didn't have to answer that...
but thanks for playing along
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
No problem.
http://www.wrapped-in-the-flag.com/images/360_The-Decider2.jpg
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I'm calm and rational as can be.
Are you saying that using the term terrorism where I see fit is somehow uncivil?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Is this a budding romance on the MT?
oh come on roland. you know you wanted to know.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I would have just said it's fantastic....lol
ok I'm done...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
there have also been documented instances of the idf beating and throwing tear gasat non violent protestors when they protested their olive trees getting torn down...then the same idf throwing tear gas into the ambulance after it loads injured ppl into it...
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
If I entertain this line of thought any further, paperplates will be along soon to pin one on me
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I'm saying that regardless of what you believe you should be able to come to a discussion with enough of an understanding of what other people believe to not immediately start throwing around terms which you know (or should know) will start a fight. Civility speaks to the tone of interactions between people. You can believe whatever you wish, but when you begin discussions with a hostile tone then, no, you are not being civil.
That's possible. And that would be wrong. It is also not official Israeli policy, nor is it the norm in practice.
Well, this isn't what I'm talking about. I mean, think of it this way: how is it that there are still apologists for the Bush administration, to this day, in the wake of what pretty much everyone knows now? It is because the conception today is that nuclear weaponry, and the ownership of such, casts a very long shadow over the psyche of a politic, of a people. It has been ingrained upon the mentality of the world this mushroom cloud image birthed in Japan 60 some years ago. That's the high card of all high cards, and it is the Evil of all Evils.
And so that is the way it is played. People tend to forget the fact that Japan is now a thriving, prosperous democracy in spite of getting blown to smithereens by a couple of Atomic bombs in 1945.
It isn't nuclear weapons so much that is at play in the Middle East, it is the perception that is conveyed by the ownership of nuclear weapons.
In any case, there is a big "fuck you" to Israel, and America coming not only from the middle east, but all over the world for being told that it isn't right for anyone but them to own such arsenal, and the perception game that is played with that sort of power. The world is saying "fuck you" to the perception, of the hypocrisy.
The idea is that everyone disarm. Only the masters of war are making this a game of nuclear weaponry. Nukes aren't really anything in this.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
as civil as gaza my friend.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Since some people here view Israels actions as indeed terrorism, I just don't see the opening post as being uncivil.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
the majority of people are not that sophisticated. they believe what they are told because they have never had any real reason not to. even when the lies are shown to them they are peepared to give the government the benefit of a very big doubt. the government inflates these evildoers and most people dont have the vision to get their information elsewhere. they have no sense of history and no motivation to find out. if soemone in power tells them so then so be it.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I think the perception evolves, and becomes what it is. Even I kind of shudder to think of the crazy man with a few nuclear bombs. But, the reality is, is this (politics) is a war of perceptions, and the way it always seems to play out is in who can demonize the enemy greater than the enemy demonizes thee. At least when it comes to militant politics, and the actions that follow.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
didnt take a crazy man to drop the last two, did it? thats what i think about.
and you're right, politics is a game of perceptions. but to me when those doing the demonising are hypocrites, then they lose me. thats if they even had me to begins with.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say