Mindless Sheep? Enlighten Me.....

decides2dream

cutback wrote:

i agree with you that some of the obama's supporters blind love for the guy without questioning anything he has or might do.....it's scary

but you what else is scary....deeply religious people forcing those beliefs upon the populous....that just isn't american....this country was founded to escape this very thing yet today we have powerful, well funded, untaxed churches funding legislation (which by the way is a tax violation) to take away people's rights....

and that makes me angry....now you may not see it, but not allowing a certain segment of our citizens the right to marry is equal to not allowing women to vote or considering black people "three fifths of all other Persons"...it's discrimination plain and simple

as for bush....he was a terrible leader and i believe to be a puppet of the right wing....

obsessive blind love and adoration is always a dangerous thing, no matter who or what you are discussing.

Strangest Tribe

I just read an article that polled MENSA members that showed 73% +\-3 support Obama.

So much for calling us "mindless"
I kinda like the sheep part though.

Ms. Haiku

nathanastin wrote:

By the way, I started this thread to get my number of posts up. Haven't posted much lately.

Ohmygawd! I was about to post how quickly this thread is moving. I was going to remark that you have incredible customer service talent as you respond to everyone. I guess you had other motives, eh?

Ms. Haiku

nathanastin wrote:

My mind has been changed on some points; I will continue to debate with myself and others and hope for the best. Have a good night assholes

Maria, my name is Maria.

OffHeGoes29

Ohhhhh shit, now you've done it.

Anon

nathanastin wrote:

**Please no hate-filled rants and propaganda; just an honest debate and discussion wanted**

I hear a lot from the left and most on here that those on the religious side are mindless sheep. Yet, I have never seen such mindless following as with Messiah Obama. People weep over this man that has done nothing in his political career but spout "change." That is just rhetoric and will amount to nothing over his term. If you think he will immediately pull the troops out you're crazy. The economy will take a long time to fix itself. The only change I see coming is socialism.

I understand Bush has been a failure, but what has Obama done? He got into politics through a corrupt ploy. He is a one term senator that knows how to speak. He took a billion dollars in pork for Illinois in only a couple years (I consider pork to be the epitome of corruption and disgusting political maneuvering; and I know both sides do it).

I need enlightened on why so many people are so enamored over this figurehead. I see it as indoctrination in the schools and especially universities, considering that 95% or so of professors are extremely liberal.

I can understand that you hate Bush and you are happy that he is gone, but complete messianic worship for a politician, and that is what he is is sad. Obama got lucky that the economy tanked at the right time. Only 9% of voters said terrorism was their top priority, which shows to me that Bush has done some good by slowing the tide.

Obama has surrounded himself with terrorists (Ayers, Khalidi) and hate-filled and racist spiritual leader (Wright). What makes you think he will have better judgment?

I could go on and on, but am just wanting some help here. I do want to honestly understand.

You lost me at the mindless sheep. Hardly a way to encourage people to want to participate in discussion. Whatever. I'm sure others will be happy to play along with you.

JaneNY

nathanastin wrote:

If I offended anyone I am sorry; I guess my original post may have sounded a little harsh. Just wanted to ask some questions from the post-Bush world. My reasons are, like most of you I want to feel hopeful; yet, I don't and do not like Obama and see so many that do. I want to get reasons for liking him, so I can enjoy America with everyone.

Despite the fact that in a later post you appear to have signed off by calling everyone assholes I'll chime in with what I like about Obama. The man is EDUCATED. Intelligent. LISTENS to people. Brings in advisors to assist him. Willing to learn when he doesn't know something. Thoughtful. He will be a better and safer pilot of the ship S.S. United States than the person who's been at the helm for the last 8 years. While Bush I'm sure had the best interests of Americans at heart, his abilities simply were not there. I may not agree with everything Obama says (we disagree on the death penalty), but I think I can trust him, and he will follow the constitution and the rule of law, and do his best, and his best will be way better than Bush's best, even if he stumbles at times. Okay there. That's my answer, take it or leave it.

blondieblue227

Hehehehe!

I think I know what happened. I just got off the phone with my guy.

He had been watching ESPN all day. He sounded just like the OP.
I said
Turn the channel, stop watching those uneducated black athletes run off at the mouth just like they do with everything else.

melodyman22

So none of you, Obama supporters on here. Answered the questions. About Obamas asscioation with, Ayers. Rev.Wright ? You guys are all talking about change. The people this guy asscioates with, is a joke. Cant believe he got away with it.

JaneNY

melodyman22 wrote:

So none of you, Obama supporters on here. Answered the questions. About Obamas asscioation with, Ayers. Rev.Wright ? .

It doesn't matter. The 'associations' as some people put it, were tenuous to being with, and he's not associating with them now. Next.

PJ_Saluki

nathanastin wrote:

All anyone has done is attacked me when all I did was simply ask some questions. I have only seen what I thought and have got no answers form anyone. Is that because there are none and my observations are correct?

I guess some of my wording was harsh and for that I am sorry.

Is the cross tough to bear? Do the nail punctures in your hands hurt? Does the mix of your crown of thorns and sweat sting?

You can't play the unfairly crucified role when you insult people.

If you want to ask questions, fine, ask them. If you want to ask loaded questions tinged by a judgmental attitude you can't expect a free flow of ideas. The responses you get will be defensive and combative.

PJ_Saluki

nathanastin wrote:

**Please no hate-filled rants and propaganda; just an honest debate and discussion wanted**

I hear a lot from the left and most on here that those on the religious side are mindless sheep. Yet, I have never seen such mindless following as with Messiah Obama.

Is it the Obama stigmata found on all the millions who voted for the President-elect? Maybe the car and suicide bombers who made their voices for Obama heard? The sharia or witch trials for non-Obama supporters? Obama's history of division and the promise of eternal salvation? No, none of these. You were on the other side of the election and you're smarting because of the loss. I'll address the following later.

nathanastin wrote:

People weep over this man that has done nothing in his political career but spout "change."

Here's some of his legislative record. Also, plenty of people who wept at his election were doing so because they saw the election of a black man as evidence that there has been a shift in this country in the last 50 years. Just think, Obama couldn't have even eaten at a "white's only" lunch counter under de facto segregation and now he's the POTUS. People who took beatings in the Civil Rights movement have seen part of their dream for a more equal America come to fruition with the election of this man. He's done more than spout change in this instance; in this instance he was an agent of change. Now comes the hard part: governing.

nathanastin wrote:

That is just rhetoric and will amount to nothing over his term.

You can't see into the future of his administration. He's got at least two years with a majority in both houses of Congress. His first order of business, on which he began work today with 17 economic advisors, is the economy. He'll have a chance, starting with his first budget, to lay the groundwork for his platform. Until then, the jury is out on exactly what President-elect Obama can achieve.

nathanastin wrote:

If you think he will immediately pull the troops out you're crazy.

President-elect Obama's staged troop withdrawal timeline is 16 months. It's not getting troops out "immediately," but it's also not a plan to stay in Iraq for 100 years, as Sen. McCain proposed early in the campaign.

nathanastin wrote:

The economy will take a long time to fix itself.

So, if you believe the economy will take a long time to fix, and it takes the Obama White House and Congress a long time to fix it, it's somehow Obama's fault? And the economy won't "fix itself"; I think this mess proved that self regulation isn't the answer.

nathanastin wrote:

The only change I see coming is socialism.

If the U.S. isn't a total socialist country after FDR's massive government work programs, Social Security, TR's graduated income tax, and welfare, it's hard to imagine a 3.6-percent increase on incomes above $200,000 is going to be the final straw. All governments have social aspects. The U.S. is no different. Also, there are checks and balances with the Legislative and Judicial branches of the government. Anything too crazy would get shot down. Pretty sure hardcore capitalists wouldn't go down without a fight.

nathanastin wrote:

I understand Bush has been a failure, but what has Obama done?

Aside from being the first African-American president of the Harvard Law review, a community organizer, a lawyer, a state senator for seven years, a constitutional law professor for 12 years, a best-selling author, and a U.S. Senator, as well as becoming the 44th POTUS, I guess nothing.

nathanastin wrote:

He got into politics through a corrupt ploy.

He got into politics when the state legislator in his district, Alice Palmer, decided to run for U.S. House. Obama became a candidate, she decided to drop her candidacy, and Obama beat her out for her spot. If by corrupt you mean that he accepted campaign donations, then yes, he was corrupt. The Rezko association was questionable, but apparently he had ties to everyone. Obama gave back campaign contributions from Rezko.

nathanastin wrote:

He is a one term senator that knows how to speak.

Might be a little hyperbolic (and oxymoronic in "little hyperbolic"), but: See Lincoln, Abraham, a state legislator and failed U.S. Senate candidate for an idea of what an intelligent, steady, motivated and ambitious man who speaks well can accomplish as POTUS.

nathanastin wrote:

He took a billion dollars in pork for Illinois in only a couple years (I consider pork to be the epitome of corruption and disgusting political maneuvering; and I know both sides do it).

Need to seem some citations for this claim.

nathanastin wrote:

I need enlightened on why so many people are so enamored over this figurehead.

It's three days after a hard-fought election. Candidates do not get elected without hardcore believers. Obama supporters are still in celebration mode. I guess history doesn't deserve a couple days? See previous answer to why people are enamored over this figureheard, which is an incorrect use of that word since POTUS does have just a little power.

nathanastin wrote:

I see it as indoctrination in the schools and especially universities, considering that 95% or so of professors are extremely liberal.

I don't have the numbers on that, but I'm sure you do. One thing, though: It seems to me that most people who get into teaching, and who possess graduate degrees or higher, are more centrist-liberal. When viewed against hardcore conservatives, who isn't a liberal?

nathanastin wrote:

I can understand that you hate Bush and you are happy that he is gone, but complete messianic worship for a politician, and that is what he is is sad.

It was a Presidential race. It just ended. People are still jacked up. it takes believers to win an election. Maybe if the Republicans wouldn't have been so tepid towards Sen. McCain's candidacy he would have an inauguration on Jan. 20. And let's not forget how Pres. Regan should have risen from the grave three days after his birth with the way conservatives drink his holy water.

nathanastin wrote:

Obama got lucky that the economy tanked at the right time.

I'm sure he wakes up every morning and thinks to himself: "Man, I sure am glad I inherited a shit economy. it worked so well for President Carter. Maybe I too can be a one-term President." A certain amount of love for one's country compels people to run for office. I doubt President-elect Obama views scores of thousands of newly unemployed Americans in the last month as a stroke of luck. That's a pretty callous, self-serving way to look at an economic implosion. Is there something about Obama that leads you to believe he sees people losing their homes and is happy that the economy tanked to make his ascension to the White House easier? Also, the economy tanking didn't help him nearly as much as McCain saying the fundamentals of the economy were sound on the same day, Sept. 15, that everything went into the crapper.

nathanastin wrote:

Only 9% of voters said terrorism was their top priority, which shows to me that Bush has done some good by slowing the tide.

We haven't had an attack on U.S. soil since 9/11. We also have the Patriot Act, unfinished business in Afghanistan and a coffers-draining war of choice in Iraq. Sept. 11 was a terrible event, but using it to ram greater executive power down the throats of Americans is using terror to achieve political goals in this country. "Most people want security in this world, not liberty." ~H.L. Mencken, Minority Report, 1956

nathanastin wrote:

Obama has surrounded himself with terrorists (Ayers, Khalidi) and hate-filled and racist spiritual leader (Wright). What makes you think he will have better judgment?

Apparently Colin Powell, Warren Buffett, Douglas Wilder, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and Gen. Wesley Clark (former Supreme Allied Commander Europe of NATO), among hundreds of other politicians and military leaders, don't see it as a problem. He was on the Annenberg Challenge board with Ayers, who was named Chicago's Citizen of the Year for his work on education. Ayers hosted a fundraising coffee for Obama and donated to his campaign. Also, does Obama control what his preacher says from the pulpit? It's not like the Right doesn't court religious leaders with extreme views. Remember when Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson said 9/11 was God's punishment? McCain called them "agents of intolerance" in 2000, then changed his tune, going so far as speaking at Falwell's Liberty University (now there's an ironic name) commencement address. At some point Obama may come into contact with Iran or the PLO; will you accuse him of hanging out with terrorists? He's not a member of Wright's church; Wright is retired; I don't think Obama was standing up and screaming "Amen!" at those services. Also, just another reason why religion and politics are a bad mix.

nathanastin wrote:

I could go on and on, but am just wanting some help here. I do want to honestly understand.

Maybe that will help you understand.

Obama isn't Jesus Christ, and he's not the greatest President ever, but he also hasn't had one day in office. I think I'll wait and see what happens before I rip him or suck his cock. If that makes me a sheep, so be it.

There are some answers to your questions.

Cosmo

nathanastin wrote:

**Please no hate-filled rants and propaganda; just an honest debate and discussion wanted**

I hear a lot from the left and most on here that those on the religious side are mindless sheep. Yet, I have never seen such mindless following as with Messiah Obama. People weep over this man that has done nothing in his political career but spout "change." That is just rhetoric and will amount to nothing over his term. If you think he will immediately pull the troops out you're crazy. The economy will take a long time to fix itself. The only change I see coming is socialism.

I understand Bush has been a failure, but what has Obama done? He got into politics through a corrupt ploy. He is a one term senator that knows how to speak. He took a billion dollars in pork for Illinois in only a couple years (I consider pork to be the epitome of corruption and disgusting political maneuvering; and I know both sides do it).

I need enlightened on why so many people are so enamored over this figurehead. I see it as indoctrination in the schools and especially universities, considering that 95% or so of professors are extremely liberal.

I can understand that you hate Bush and you are happy that he is gone, but complete messianic worship for a politician, and that is what he is is sad. Obama got lucky that the economy tanked at the right time. Only 9% of voters said terrorism was their top priority, which shows to me that Bush has done some good by slowing the tide.

Obama has surrounded himself with terrorists (Ayers, Khalidi) and hate-filled and racist spiritual leader (Wright). What makes you think he will have better judgment?

I could go on and on, but am just wanting some help here. I do want to honestly understand.

...
Your overall assumption that anyone who voted for Barack Obama worships him as if he were a Messiah. Obama is a man who has won an election... Religion is a completely different thing. That assumption is completely incorrect. Yes, people wept at his election win and I can't answer for them... I have never been a young black male and I will never to pretend I know what it is like to be one.
Moreover, I can only speak for myself when I say I will hold Obama accountable for his upcoming decisions... offer praise and support when I believe he does what is good for America and offer harsh criticism when I believe he is doing us wrong.
I also believe in personal character and understand that just because some of your acquaintances have questionable pasts, does not make you possess those same characteristics. It's like saying if you have friends that are alcoholics... you are an alcoholic. I know this is not the truth. The same goes for things such as intolerance, indifference and hatred. If someone you know makes racist statement... does that mean you are a racist, too?
I am not judging Obama on his past... but on his present. I don't know where he will take this nation and when that time comes, I will offer up my opinions. I know I have felt differnt in a vast array of issues, but feel differently today. Would you judge me on who I was... or who I am?
...
Now... that being said, I have a couple of questions for you.
If, in some parallel Universe, Obama was in the White House for the past 8 years... would you be defending his actions? The decision to go to War in Iraq... the response to Hurrican Katrina... the indecision to recognize and do something about the current economic mess we are in? Would you be saying the same things in support of Obama, as you are saying for Bush?

gimmesometruth27

nathanastin wrote:

I actually do not follow the GOP and have only pointed out what I have learned from a variety of sources all across the spectrum.

i may not be 100% correct here, but the only person i have heard refer to obama as "the messiah" is fat ass rush limbaugh and you have asked several of the questions he has presented on his show the last few days. why don't you ask rush your questions because it seems he is the only one that will give you the answers you seem to be seeking.

McJuicy

nathanastin wrote:

But the pure hatred towards Bush and the Reps is ridiculous. I have never seen such malicious behavior and degradation toward our country than the vitriol spilled towards them.

how conveniently you forget all the hatred spewed at democrats in '02-'04-'06, hate tactics used specifically to insinuate fear and divide the country

PJ_Saluki

McJuicy wrote:

how conveniently you forget all the hatred spewed at democrats in '02-'04-'06, hate tactics used specifically to insinuate fear and divide the country

Yes, but you forget that those were righteous hate spewings.

blondieblue227

PJ_Saluki wrote:

Yes, but you forget that those were righteous hate spewings.

zing!

NOCODE#1

nathanastin wrote:

I love how you call it the Reich; the epitome of hate-speech and ironic considering the German Reich was socialistic. As I have pointed out, Obama has said it more than to Joe the plumber. I guess I need a sheering because you can't pull that wool over my eyes

so you dont think the REICH has been redistributing to the top 10% the last 8 years. but that was ok the president was stupid and white. that helped you sleep right?

NOCODE#1

nathanastin wrote:

What does that even mean? I am against unfair taxation. x.

then move, because in case you haven't noticed we have something called tax brackets.

NOCODE#1

nathanastin wrote:

Nice name calling. Didn't gay weddings just get voted down?

in one state