Epigenetics

baraka

Ahnimus wrote:

Thanks, I'll take a look at them. I found this diagram particularly discouraging

http://www.colby.edu/chemistry/BC368/metabolism.jpg

Ha ha, I think you'll find my links much more understandable. I couldn't even zoom in enough to read, let alone, comprehend that cascade link!

Here's something from Wiki..........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipogenesis

Jeanie

Can you guys please keep this discussion going coz I'm busting to participate. I've just been so eh :( the last couple of days that I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it and I've got stuff on so can't be here today.

Deni, I'll be back. Just know that I have a very good understanding of PCOS coz it's been messing with me for a very long time, along with some other crap that really makes things difficult, so I don't know exactly what you're going through but I've got a pretty good idea girl. I've read some really good books on the subject and I'll post some links and stuff later. Oh plus, my Mum did her thesis ( or whatever it was. Don't ask me I can't keep up with her ) on obesity related health so she has a lot of really cool information and studies on it too. I'll see what I can rustle up later.

Ahnimus

Syndrome X was discussed in the HHMI lecture, but I don't recall PCOS being mentioned. It sounds common, I thought PWS was the most common occuring 1 in 12,000 to 15,000 people.

Marbles

Deni wrote:

....And I have wondered if the exploding instances of children diagnosed on the Autism Spectrum recently is due at least in part to something we are exposing our children to, and that this exposure is turning off genes or turning on redundant genes causing the Autism.

Well, when I was a kid, there was autism. Now, there is autism spectrum disorder, PDD and lots of other made up bullshit. Real autism is a REAL problem. Not being 85% social, 15% intellectual doesn't make you "on the spectrum", it makes you an engineer! I've seen both. People are freaking label crazy now, and people who don't really have certain diseases or disorders now get diagnosed with all sorts of rot, and of course get to take all sorts of drugs for them. Sometimes, miracle of miracles, these people who never had these diseases or disorders in the first place get "cured" with whatever drug. Then the drug is listed as working for a disease that the person didn't even have, making it hard to actually find what works for the people who actually DO have the disease or disorder. Any kid who is not speaking at 18 months now gets the big red A on their records, despite of the fact that the DSM IV criterion require far more than just a speech delay. For the DSM IV, it requires that 6 or more of 12 criterion are met. Now, with the modern expanded definitions, anyone with 1 or 2 criterion can be labeled as being "On the spectrum". On the spectrum is bloody bullshit! (The attention issues have been tied to homes in which children have been permitted to watch TV. Amusingly enough, the program with the highest correlation to later learning disabilities is the "good children's TV" show, Sesame Street! Oh well, the brain research book with that data is still packed up in the garage, and I am NOT headed out there at this hour to retype the works of the brain researchers right now. I might be able to think of the title in a bit.)

As for the vaccines, giving more than one at a time is just moronic. The chances of complications go up so much, and they KNOW that it does. GRRR! Makes me stamping freaking mad. I HAVE 4 kids. The first one, I tried to go by the book. I learned that the less often that you take a kid to a pediatrician, the less often that they get sick! They routinely get sick 7-10 days after going to a pediatrician. It's like freaking clockwork. The younger ones only went in when they were sick. When we quit homeschooling and put 3 of them in school, they were all behind on their shots, but ridiculously healthy!

Deni wrote:

I think it may also explain the extremely high rate of obesity especially in the US. Because those of us who struggle to lose weight know that what we eat is only 50% of the battle, and that there definitely is a genetic component that makes some people carry more weight and also makes it harder to lose weight than some other people.....

Yes, I know that there are metabolic differences between people. I tend to gain weight, my sister has to fight to keep from losing weight. Full blooded relations, just different metabolisms.

What has changed to make the younger generation the heaviest in ages? Lifestyle! Kids get little to no exercise. I'll put a lot of blame on AC and TV. Now that it is comfortable in the house in the summer, who wants to go outside? Sit and play a video game, play on the computer, or watch one of a billion TV channels. Moronic parents even put TV's in kids' rooms! Another problem? The sensationalist media. When shown pictures, more people would recognize Jon Bennet Ramsey than would recognize Dick Cheney! This is one little kid, probably killed by her own family, but none the less, one crime, in one neighborhood, yet everyone heard about it, and saw it, and blah, blah, blah! The sensationalist media has scared the hell out of most parents. The ones who don't understand math, so they have no idea how small the chances of anything actually happening to their kid are. Since the parents are afraid, the kids can't ever PLAY. The parents probably roamed the neighborhood for hours at a time, their parents having no real idea where they were, or what they were doing. Sure, the parents sign the kids up for activities, like martial arts, one day per week, for 45 minutes, but exercise wise, that doesn't compare to spending 4 hours playing every conceivable outdoor game with the neighborhood kids, or riding bikes for a few hours. Marry the massive reduction of exercise with the horrible increase in the percentage of grains and sugars as staples of the diet, leading to blood sugar surges and crashes, and insulin issues, of course kid are getting fat! My kids aren't fat. They play outside. They don't eat a bunch of crap. No freaking fruit roll-up crap. They eat real foods, not Frankenfoods. Take away the juice, and give the kid a piece of fruit. Far lower in calories, and actually has fiber and nutrients.

Do we evolve and change in response to our environment? Yes, of course we do. Are all of the maladies of today things that we can blame our grandparents for? NO! People need to stand up, and be accountable for themselves, NOW! What happens to you isn't all what was put upon you, beyond your control! You CAN control your surroundings to a far greater degree than you may want to bother with. Push away from the table. Put down the sugary soda, eat some real food, and get some darn exercise. Read a book to exercise your brain.

Jeanie

No wonder I'm so tired. :rolleyes: I really cannot see the benefit of utilizing the "blame game" as a response to perceived lack of personal responsibility. It hasn't worked for the nearly 40 years of my life, and I know I'm not alone, so why people are so sure it's gonna help now I'll never know. But if it helps you sleep at night YAY! Good for you!

Bring on the science I say and shut these ridiculous assumptions and misguided, ill informed comments down for good.

Marbles

Ahnimus wrote:

....Please explain how the Big Mac causes these symptoms:

Birth to 2 y
1. Hypotonia with poor suck.


2y–6 y
1. Hypotonia with history of poor suck.
2. Global developmental delay.


6y–12 y
1. History of hypotonia with poor suck (hypotonia often persists).
2. Global developmental delay.
3. Excessive eating (hyperphagia; preoccupation with food) with central obesity if uncontrolled.

13 y through adulthood
1. Cognitive disabilities; usually mild mental retardation. ....

These are children that previously would have had a "Failure to thrive" and died in infancy. We now maintain the weak. The weak used to die off. The problems that plague them are not the problems that plague the normal population.

Yoyoyo

Marbles wrote:

Since the parents are afraid, the kids can't ever PLAY. The parents probably roamed the neighborhood for hours at a time, their parents having no real idea where they were, or what they were doing. Sure, the parents sign the kids up for activities, like martial arts, one day per week, for 45 minutes, but exercise wise, that doesn't compare to spending 4 hours playing every conceivable outdoor game with the neighborhood kids, or riding bikes for a few hours. Marry the massive reduction of exercise with the horrible increase in the percentage of grains and sugars as staples of the diet, leading to blood sugar surges and crashes, and insulin issues, of course kid are getting fat! My kids aren't fat. They play outside. They don't eat a bunch of crap. No freaking fruit roll-up crap. They eat real foods, not Frankenfoods. Take away the juice, and give the kid a piece of fruit. Far lower in calories, and actually has fiber and nutrients.

Do we evolve and change in response to our environment? Yes, of course we do. Are all of the maladies of today things that we can blame our grandparents for? NO! People need to stand up, and be accountable for themselves, NOW! What happens to you isn't all what was put upon you, beyond your control! You CAN control your surroundings to a far greater degree than you may want to bother with. Push away from the table. Put down the sugary soda, eat some real food, and get some darn exercise. Read a book to exercise your brain.

EEEE GHAST! You mean it's not the adhd, PWS, grehlin, atm, vcr DISEAZORS infected in my kids?

Finally someone that is willing to take some responsibility for their health, it is refreshing. We all know it is easier to blame some trumped up "new" disease, but easier is not better.

Yoyoyo

Jeanie wrote:

No wonder I'm so tired. :rolleyes: I really cannot see the benefit of utilizing the "blame game" as a response to perceived lack of personal responsibility. It hasn't worked for the nearly 40 years of my life, and I know I'm not alone, so why people are so sure it's gonna help now I'll never know. But if it helps you sleep at night YAY! Good for you!

Bring on the science I say and shut these ridiculous assumptions and misguided, ill informed comments down for good.

Yeah bring on blankets to cover the truth.

Why do you figure, after 40 years of a known pattern, that anything is going to change at all if you are not willing to accept responsibility for your person? Science or otherwise?

Now it is time for sleep, deep un-interupted sleep. Zzzz

Jeanie

Mestophar wrote:

Yeah bring on blankets to cover the truth.

Why do you figure, after 40 years of a known pattern, that anything is going to change at all if you are not willing to accept responsibility for your person? Science or otherwise?

Now it is time for sleep, deep un-interupted sleep. Zzzz

UM..... maybe because it's a well known symptom of my neurological condition? But you'd know sooooo much better than all the known experts in the field right? :rolleyes:

Now is there anybody else you wanna have a go at with your crap?

I mean seriously get a life!

MahoganySouls

Ahnimus wrote:

Keep in mind, in order for substances to affect cognitive abilities prenatally it has to be able to pass the placenta, and the blood-brain barrier postnatally.

I've read dozens of folk theories about immunology causing autism and so on, as of yet, I haven't found one that stands up to scrutiny. To me, autism remains a mystery.

So then you disagree with the thermosal argument?

Marbles

Mestophar wrote:

EEEE GHAST! You mean it's not the adhd, PWS, grehlin, atm, vcr DISEAZORS infected in my kids?

Finally someone that is willing to take some responsibility for their health, it is refreshing. We all know it is easier to blame some trumped up "new" disease, but easier is not better.

Hey, there is one tech toy out there that is GOOD for kids. My first son spent a few years living with his Doctor father, and doctor step-mom. They allowed his severe scoliosis to go untreated, and he also gained weight. When he came back to live with me, he did a great deal of physical therapy, a quarter at a time at the arcade. DDR and Pump it Up are both known for taking off massive amounts of weight, and doing a great deal for core body stability. He actually straightened his back by quite a few degrees, just playing a silly game. Many of the guys on the DDR forums have lost massive amounts of weight from the game.

MahoganySouls

Jeanie wrote:

Sorry I've been trying to get back to reply to this one since last night.

Anyway, I guess I wanted to make a few points. I agree that the effects of immunization have not been fully investigated and should be, but I'm not sure we want a return to the bad old days of small pox epidemics and the like. So in my view immunization is a personal choice that parents make on behalf of their children, and those that choose not to immunize need to be very careful that their children are not exposed or expose others. Having said that, I fully support peoples right to choose either way. Of course it goes without saying that I would want that to be a fully informed choice. Regarding the autism, I also thought it has been linked to a variety of causes included foetal alcohol syndrome, and lack of folate in the mother during pregnancy. And I can't find a bloody link because my memory is too vague, but I'm sure I saw something recently that had something to do with the absorption of some nutrient in the gut of mothers during pregnancy which was also contributing to the increase in both autism and adhd. I'll keep hunting around in my "internal filing cabinet" and see if I can remember enough to hunt for the research.
I have a huge interest in the effects that the increased medical intervention in hormones and hormone treatments is having on world health in general both in those ingesting the hormones and their offspring. So I'm not a big fan of too much soy or too many phytoestrogens in general, well particularly for younger women. I truly believe that the long term effects of medicines is not studied for long enough, having said that I also understand the urgency in making things available to those who would benefit. At some point people have to inform themselves and decide if they are willing to be a "guinea pig" in return for any possible benefits they may garner from treatments.

The great thing about this research is that, like stem cells, it offers a way for a person to heal "themselves" so to speak with their own cells. And I'm all for that. The bad thing about it is, like so many things that are highly beneficial and great advances in medicine, it's probably going to be hijacked by big business and will take years before, if ever, it is available as treatment for the general majority, not to mention that like most treatments it will be subjective and bureaucratic. When it comes to treatment, I never hold my breath because I'm well aware of how the system works. When it comes to the medical profession, I have no qualms about agreeing or disagreeing to the treatment options offered to me as I don't hold medical practitioners "above" me. They are doing a job and I may or may not agree with their methods or suggestions so we discuss it and they are there to ensure that I am given all the best available information and options and then ultimately, my body, my choice. All of my doctors and specialists are aware this is my attitude and I thorougly recommend that others adopt it as theirs. Blindly following anyone, even when you're sick can get you killed or worse.

With regard to the chemo, it's vile stuff, BUT it afforded my grandmother another 4 years that she would otherwise not have had with us, and I support her and anyone else that wants to use it as a treatment option. Ultimately it's personal choice, so if it's not your thing, that's cool, I'm just not sure what my decision would be regarding chemo if the situation arises for me.

And finally to alternative therapies. Always my attitude to my health is to inform myself and try and/or utilize the best possible treatments for me. So this would apply to alternative therapies in some cases. I am guided by what works for me and my instincts. When it comes to your health the best thing you can do is know yourself and your body as best you can.

I defintely agree with your comment that prenatal care plays a huge role in the onslaught of disease we see in children. Obiviously our knowledge of prenatal care is excellent. The problem is definitely with maternal choice. What she eats, what she drinks, what she smokes etc. The developing child only is as good as its environment...that being the uterus. So if the mothers body is poisoned via choice or outside toxins such as fertilizers, the fetus is affected. We live in a toxic society. Why should we expect that it wouldnt effect unborn children who depend on the infiltrated womb. I also think that we poison our babies with formulas. Thus also adding to the increase in neuro disease. Breast milk is best...but that is an argument for another forum.

MahoganySouls

trappedinmyradio wrote:

or, maybe autism is a form of higher intelligence that we are incapable of understanding at this point...

highly unlikely. I challenge you to find one autistic person who would choose this "intelligence". It is a very debilitating disease.

Marbles

MahoganySouls wrote:

highly unlikely. I challenge you to find one autistic person who would choose this "intelligence". It is a very debilitating disease.

But, those who are MISDIAGNOSED as having "autism spectrum disorders" are the analytical, engineering minded souls, an intelligent, but misunderstood lot. Thus, the perception of the autistic as overly intelligent goes to the misapplication of the label.

MahoganySouls

Deni wrote:

Wow! You really are an asshole.

Spoken like a person who hasn't dealt with the issue their whole fucking life! I happen to be fat, and I happen to NOT be lazy. I don't eat whole pizzas! I don't eat fast food! I eat right and exercise 3-4 times a week! I do resistance training. I swim (I love to swim), and I do Yoga and Pilates! There is something ELSE that makes it HARDER for me to lose weight than some other people. And that's a fact. We should be looking in to this! There has got to be a medical reason when a person is doing what they should be doing to be healthy and they still aren't healthy then there is usually ANOTHER REASON! A Medical reason!

On a personal note... Go fuck yourself!

Deni while it is true that some people are obese merely from a genetic standpoint, this is certainly not the norm. Our society is very unhealthy. When you compare American lifestyle to others, we don't measure up. By comparison we are less active, more stressed, eat bigger meal portions and snack unhealthy. One of the worst contributors to obesity and diabetes in this country is the staggering amount of soda that we consume. People drink them like most other countries drink water. We also ingest obscene amounts of fried and pre packaged food.

In your case, what this epigenetics is questioning is.....could your genetic makeup have been altered because you were fed an improper diet as far back as inutero? As a child, were you encouraged to get outside and play, to exercise? What types of foods did you grow up on? Could your parents upbringing have placed tags on or mutated cells to cause obesity in you. Could your own lifestyle have done this?

What would truly be exciting is to see if and how these epi genes could be reset to undo such damage.

ETA: I am concerned though, you didn't mention aerobics in your exercise routine. This is essential for heart health. It will also cause higher caloric burn.

Jeanie

MahoganySouls wrote:

I defintely agree with your comment that prenatal care plays a huge role in the onslaught of disease we see in children. Obiviously our knowledge of prenatal care is excellent. The problem is definitely with maternal choice. What she eats, what she drinks, what she smokes etc. The developing child only is as good as its environment...that being the uterus. So if the mothers body is poisoned via choice or outside toxins such as fertilizers, the fetus is affected. We live in a toxic society. Why should we expect that it wouldnt effect unborn children who depend on the infiltrated womb. I also think that we poison our babies with formulas. Thus also adding to the increase in neuro disease. Breast milk is best...but that is an argument for another forum.

Yes I agree, but I have to say that if the experts can't agree how on earth is a pregnant woman supposed to know the best possible course of action and still have the desired outcome? I realize that yes, education is the best option and we know more now than we've ever done, but things change. I distinctly remember the times years ago when baby formula was plugged by the experts as better than breast. So I don't know, I mean I agree that breast is best, but it's only 15 years ago that the experts were telling us that too many eggs where bad for our cholesterol and to avoid avocado and nuts. There's been the ongoing disputes about the effects of electromagnetic radiation, nitrates, food colorings, thalidimide, agent orange, lead paint, you name it it's been discussed. I truly believe that the majority of people in this world do the best they can with the knowledge they have at the time. When they know better, they do better. And it's not like information isn't withheld or misrepresented by the experts either. Case in point the tobacco industry.
I think this epigenetics will serve to help us to understand a lot more about things that effect the body and disease pathology. I just hope, as you mentioned before yourself, that it's not hijacked and that it is utilized to the benefit of people and not a money spinner for some lecherous multinational organization.

MahoganySouls

Marbles wrote:

But, those who are MISDIAGNOSED as having "autism spectrum disorders" are the analytical, engineering minded souls, an intelligent, but misunderstood lot. Thus, the perception of the autistic as overly intelligent goes to the misapplication of the label.

such as? You could be highly intelligent and still be autistic. The two do not equate. Most savants fall into the autistic spectrum. However, I would still acertain that the majority of autistics would give up any residual intellect from their disease if they could rid themselves of its negative aspects.

MahoganySouls

Jeanie wrote:

Yes I agree, but I have to say that if the experts can't agree how on earth is a pregnant woman supposed to know the best possible course of action and still have the desired outcome? I realize that yes, education is the best option and we know more now than we've ever done, but things change. I distinctly remember the times years ago when baby formula was plugged by the experts as better than breast. So I don't know, I mean I agree that breast is best, but it's only 15 years ago that the experts were telling us that too many eggs where bad for our cholesterol and to avoid avocado and nuts. There's been the ongoing disputes about the effects of electromagnetic radiation, nitrates, food colorings, thalidimide, agent orange, lead paint, you name it it's been discussed. I truly believe that the majority of people in this world do the best they can with the knowledge they have at the time. When they know better, they do better. And it's not like information isn't withheld or misrepresented by the experts either. Case in point the tobacco industry.
I think this epigenetics will serve to help us to understand a lot more about things that effect the body and disease pathology. I just hope, as you mentioned before yourself, that it's not hijacked and that it is utilized to the benefit of people and not a money spinner for some lecherous multinational organization.

good points. Yes medicine is called a "practice" for a reason. Understanding is always evolving. This too coincides though with the idea from the video that what we do now, the mistakes we might make now, effects us presently, our children and umpteen generations to come.

gue_barium

MahoganySouls wrote:

good points. Yes medicine is called a "practice" for a reason. Understanding is always evolving. This too coincides though with the idea from the video that what we do now, the mistakes we might make now, effects us presently, our children and umpteen generations to come.

The "practice of medicine" is called a practice. "Medicine" isn't.

Ahnimus

Marbles wrote:

These are children that previously would have had a "Failure to thrive" and died in infancy. We now maintain the weak. The weak used to die off. The problems that plague them are not the problems that plague the normal population.

As usual, I'm not interested theories that are based solely on personal experience or conjecture. You seem to ascribe to what is often called the naturalistic fallacy, the belief that moral oughts can be derived from a natural is, or the is-ought problem of David Hume.[1][2].

Morality seems to arise as a human construct from a number of functions our brains perform. Mirror neurons for example, allow us to empathize with another's situation. When men see another man take a shot to the jewels they tend to mirror this feeling, in part. We have acquired a cooperative natural through evolution, like many species, we help each other, arguably for future gain. This is where I think morality can be derived from, where it naturally arises from*. Nature alone can not give you these kinds of moral derivatives. By nature, someone could bust into your home and murder you, and if you could not defend yourself, it's lights out. That doesn't work in modern human life.

You could get side-swiped by a car and suffer brain damage. Not severe enough to make you severely retarded, but it garbles up your speech. You can think clearly and understand people, but when you try to talk it comes out garbled. Under these conditions, you'd rather we chuck you in the gutter to rot away than learn ahead of time how to fix it and return you to normal? Some children suffer from a condition called verbal apraxia[3] that makes communication difficult. Scientists and doctors aren't out making up disorders to give people, they are studying disorders that exist. Things that we weren't even aware of in past centuries, we probably thought they were insane.

Everything is on a spectrum. We use categories because they are useful, but in many cases they are only place markers, certain critical measures. Not only is everyone unique in their appearance, they are unique in their physiology.. Their may be a prototypical case of autism which is used as a place marker, but these labels do not describe the patient exactly.

I'd like you to answer a question; How do you know what you know? What is your source?

[size=-2]*My apologies to any psychopaths who lack the ability to feel empathy. No harm was intended. I can only suggest that you seek help from a psychiatrist.[/size]