Comparative Religion: Godmen

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Here's the wikipedia version, just for you. :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckankar

Lame cultish type stuff.

Ahnimus

lucylespian wrote:

Didn't have time to read all of that, but sounds like it means, stay grounded, don't let your life get too complicated, make some space in every day for peace and enjoyment and be nice !!

And believe in a human spirit/soul and God. Perform rituals, etc.. etc...

angelica

lucylespian wrote:

Didn't have time to read all of that, but sounds like it means, stay grounded, don't let your life get too complicated, make some space in every day for peace and enjoyment and be nice !!

Basically! The problem with many people is that with all our baggage, it seems a whole lot more complicated. They have no idea to stop the cycles and patterns that pull them out of their inner peace and groundedness. All truths are very simple at base. Something like this is a vehicle to the inner groundedness.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

And believe in a human spirit/soul and God. Perform rituals, etc.. etc...

Do you believe in a basic "first" awareness that lies beneath your thoughts? Or do you believe you are your thoughts?

Both linguistics, and for example very highly respected and widely influential Lacan psychology deals with this. And fins has some kind of stunning education, whereupon he understands what "signifiers" or the "signifieds" (in other words 'signs' representing things) are. This is very practical stuff that underlies how humans think.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Basically! The problem with many people is that with all our baggage, it seems a whole lot more complicated. They have no idea to stop the cycles and patterns that pull them out of their inner peace and groundedness. All truths are very simple at base. Something like this is a vehicle to the inner groundedness.

Dr. Peter Lawrence Gill is the Savior of Mankind.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Do you believe in a basic "first" awareness that lies beneath your thoughts? Or do you believe you are your thoughts?

Both linguistics, and for example very highly respected and widely influential Lacan psychology deals with this. And fins has some kind of stunning education, whereupon he understands what "signifiers" or the "signifieds" (in other words 'signs' representing things) are. This is very practical stuff that underlies how humans think.

Huh?

Sounds like he's taken NLP and tried to make it sound more fruity than it really is.

Ahnimus

Angelica... I believe the body and brain originate from DNA and all that, eventually the brain develops to a capacity to start learning, this is approx third trimester and at this point there is very little awareness and no differing personality, from that point all, everything a person is subjectively is a product of experience. There is no evidence anywhere along the way that there is any kind of a soul, spirit, or God. Just evidence that we are robots.

lucylespian

angelica wrote:

Basically! The problem with many people is that with all our baggage, it seems a whole lot more complicated. They have no idea to stop the cycles and patterns that pull them out of their inner peace and groundedness. All truths are very simple at base. Something like this is a vehicle to the inner groundedness.

I'm inclined to very much agree with that. I guess I have always instinctively known the importance returning to the inner peace and not letting the pressures of teh world take over. I have always used the ocean, surfing, windsurfing, playing misic, riding motorbikes, or just sitting watching a fire, drinknig tea or pettin one of teh many parasitic naimals that infest my life. Something as complex as an organised ritual or organization to achieve that seems so unnecessary to me, but I can see that many people do need it.
I'm interest e dto chat further about the "signifier" you mentioned no time now, maybe a PM ??

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

Huh?

Sounds like he's taken NLP and tried to make it sound more fruity than it really is.

Lacan is much more reputable that NLP. Linguistics and the basics of language is also very reputable.

According to Lacan, with words and signs, we've been taught illusions from infancy. For example, when a baby looks in a mirror, we tell the baby "yes, that's you!". And really, it's not the baby. It's a reflection and 2-d representation. By this sort of false representation, we've gotten completely out of touch with our real being. People take words and teachings to be "real". We're all essentially disassociated from reality. It's so "normal" that we all think it's real. And it's not. You might call it the illusions of determinism. I would too. I'm just representing the loophole that allows us to detach from the illusions and live as we ARE.

angelica

lucylespian wrote:

I'm inclined to very much agree with that. I guess I have always instinctively known the importance returning to the inner peace and not letting the pressures of teh world take over. I have always used the ocean, surfing, windsurfing, playing misic, riding motorbikes, or just sitting watching a fire, drinknig tea or pettin one of teh many parasitic naimals that infest my life. Something as complex as an organised ritual or organization to achieve that seems so unnecessary to me, but I can see that many people do need it.
I'm interest e dto chat further about the "signifier" you mentioned no time now, maybe a PM ??

I'm just learning to logically comprehend the deeper values of the signifier stuff. I'm game for any pm talk, anytime, though! I love to learn out loud. I'm a sounding board learner, so as I conceptualize in language (using signifiers! ) I learn stuff myself.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Lacan is much more reputable that NLP. Linguistics and the basics of language is also very reputable.

According to Lacan, with words and signs, we've been taught illusions from infancy. For example, when a baby looks in a mirror, we tell the baby "yes, that's you!". And really, it's not the baby. It's a reflection and 2-d representation. By this sort of false representation, we've gotten completely out of touch with our real being. People take words and teachings to be "real". We're all essentially disassociated from reality. It's so "normal" that we all think it's real. And it's not. You might call it the illusions of determinism. I would too. I'm just representing the loophole that allows us to detach from the illusions and live as we ARE.

Haha, but you are always alluding to some higher cosmic consciousness, spirits, and enlightenment. It's not anything like causal determinism that is quite mundane and boring, with no souls/spirits, no cosmic consciousness, and although it is enlightening, the term doesn't come up often. It's more a discussion of things factually are in real terms. Also, I don't know anyone that thinks they are their reflection. But I know many many people that believe they have a spirit/soul or higher-purpose as taught to them as a child. So perhaps your are delusional by your own definition?

angelica

lucylespian wrote:

BTW Anjelica, you have clearly found your own peace and worked out how to sstay snae in this insane world, don't let anyone else take credit for that !!

My peace comes from realizing that as the drop of water, I am also the ocean.

I am so blessed by all the stunning influences, positive and negative, that have brought me to this point. To imagine I exist in a vaccum, detached of life and my surroundings, would be crazy.

Jeanie

lucylespian wrote:

Nah, who is he ??

Is he a multi-headed animal god with mad priest followers ??

Was reading Pratchett last night and Truckle the Uncivil was in trouble for going aafter a Fiev Headed Vampire Goat God, cos it was an endangered species.

I really stay away from the candles and sandals brigade. I have a fwiend at Montville who used to bombard me with shit advertising everything from DNA repatterning and activation to re-incarnation therapy. Talk about a load of self-deluding bollocks. Comparing it to religion ( to stay on topic) it smells peculiarly the same, without the war though !!

Eckanakar sounds like a funny word spelt backwards to disguise it's true meaning, like "rake in the lucre" for example.

hehe! Yes, well just a tip, for future reference, if you don't want them to get you at these things, keep moving!! I made the mistake of sitting down to rest for a minute!! Although, I will say to her credit, she watched me for a while, as I busily attempted to avoid eye contact, and I can't say as I felt stared at or anything. And then she just quietly approached me, holding out the bag and asked if I would like it, and then wished me a nice day and went away again. She was either just a really nice person, or a very clever "reader". Anyway, I decided I'd have a little read of the bag's contents and it seems to be all about "How past lives, dreams and soul travel help you find God". Started by some guy called Sri Harold Klemp. Anyway, guess I'm just curious about it because so far it hasn't annoyed me. I've found some things about it to be questionable, but not so much with the beggers belief. Actually, some of it does require you to suspend reality, but I think it's how it's written. Anyway, just wondered about it is all.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

Haha, but you are always alluding to some higher cosmic consciousness, spirits, and enlightenment. It's not anything like causal determinism that is quite mundane and boring, with no souls/spirits, no cosmic consciousness, and although it is enlightening, the term doesn't come up often. It's more a discussion of things factually are in real terms. Also, I don't know anyone that thinks they are their reflection. But I know many many people that believe they have a spirit/soul or higher-purpose as taught to them as a child. So perhaps your are delusional by your own definition?

It looks like the reflection stuff is lost on you. It took me a long time to grasp what that's all about. I still don't get half of Lacan's stuff.

While we're talking comparative religions, numerous people have told you this, and it's hard to overlook. Your view of predestination, and all it entails, is a duality good/bad religion of it's own. You have the demons or the bad guys, and you have the "good" (science, including it's deities or your select scientists). And we're all irrelevent sinners in the eyes of the determinism gods.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

What religion are you discussing?

I'm not sure it is a religion Ahnimus.

Says it's "Ancient Wisdom for Today". That it's about "spiritual exercises to find your own custom made approach to the Kingdom of God"

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

It looks like the reflection stuff is lost on you. It took me a long time to grasp what that's all about. I still don't get half of Lacan's stuff.

While we're talking comparative religions, numerous people have told you this, and it's hard to overlook. Your view of predestination, and all it entails, is a duality good/bad religion of it's own. You have the demons or the bad guys, and you have the "good" (science, including it's deities or your select scientists). And we're all irrelevent sinners in the eyes of the determinism gods.

What? Determinism is nowhere near being a religion. There is no faith, no rituals, no icons or idols. It's a very basic, natural, view of reality. Determinism does not rely on presuppositions or mythology. Determinism is everything that verifiably exists.

We are not sinners, you are just being deffensive about it, because you can't grasp it. As others have said, determinism is just too big for some people I guess. Voltaire said it best, some people are destined to reason badly.

Ahnimus

Jeanie wrote:

I'm not sure it is a religion Ahnimus.

Says it's "Ancient Wisdom for Today". That it's about "spiritual exercises to find your own custom made approach to the Kingdom of God"

It's faith based, involves rituals and so on, it's a self-proclaimed religion.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

What? Determinism is nowhere near being a religion. There is no faith, no rituals, no icons or idols. It's a very basic, natural, view of reality. Determinism does not rely on presuppositions or mythology. Determinism is everything that verifiably exists.

We are not sinners, you are just being deffensive about it, because you can't grasp it. As others have said, determinism is just too big for some people I guess. Voltaire said it best, some people are destined to reason badly.

If you understood the concept of signifiers, you'd realize the presuppositions you rely on with each word you speak, much less with each idea you "believe". And you believe some things with evangelic fervor. With all that presupposing going on, it's very easy to overlook reality.

Each word presupposes the concept you refer to and defines a concept, rather than allowing an experience of a concept to "be" as it Is. Rather than existing and experiencing life, each theory and idea detaches us from life.

Jeanie

angelica wrote:

What I found was that the people at the meeting were very peaceful and warm. I read numerous books on Eckankar at the time, as well, and it all sounded on the up and up to me. It's geared to the individual, and void of rules and dogma. I have not had anything to do with them since then, because I tend to try out and borrow things here and there that work, and let go of the "religion". That is about me, and not about any fault I found with Eckankar. One thing that I learned through Eckankar, which is a base tenet, and that I still rely on a LOT to this day is meditating back to the "Source". How I interpret this is that I'm detaching from my thoughts and emotions that are on the surface--which come and go. I meditate in order to focus my awareness on a deeper calm, still, unchanging aspect of my nature. I found this part of an article about a month or so ago that explained this. I meditate to more base levels of awareness wherethe mind is in neutral, or pre-thought. Pre-thought is a state of "Being" and existing in the moment. this stage comes BEFORE cause and effect, so by meditating on this state, one learns to stay detached of all kinds of things that the average person is consumed by:

"Firstness is a general state of mind in which there is awareness of the environment, a prevailing emotion, and a sense of the possibilities. This is the mind in neutral, waiting to formulate thought. Secondness moves from possibility to greater certainty shown by action, reaction, causality, or reality. Here the mind identifies what message is to be communicated. Thirdness is the mode of signs shown in representation, continuity, order, and unity. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_(semiotics)

This is what Fins and myself were talking about the other night, when your brain exploded. When we start formulating thoughts and words, we take them to be real, but really they are not--they only represent something. When we learn to get centered deep within, we can begin to see through the symbols/words people take to be so real. So, it's important in order to be realistic, to get out of the loop of thinking, and out of the loop of our emotions that cause us so many ups and downs. Then we can train ourselves gently to relate to our inner peace beyond the ups and downs and problems we have. This way we learn to be peaceful, and have our thoughts and emotions stem from that peace. This is much more optimal than having our thoughts and emotions running us, without our control. It took me a long time to learn this stuff but it's been sooo worth it. The fact is that what they were teaching me in meditation at Eckankar is something that I've had personally very good results with--to a great degree. It's my peace, my ground and my centeredness. Because I've learned to do this, it is also why I say I can walk beyond "determinism". I believe determinism is very real, but I know there is a loophole to access awareness that allows us to go beyond what is determined or beyond "fate".

I'm sure you will follow your own intuition and find what feels right for you, jeanie.

Thank you angel. That's pretty much exactly what I was looking for from someone. And how interesting that it was you, because I wondered when I was weighing up whether or not to post about it if you would be the one to know what I was talking about.
Much like yourself, I struggle to pick a team, and am more for exploring options peacefully and making up my own mind what will serve as a useful tool for my life or not.

I'm still completely struggling with the whole fins conversation, but that's cool. It'll come to me eventually!

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

It's faith based, involves rituals and so on, it's a self-proclaimed religion.

Well if that's how you see it so be it.

I'm not convinced myself that is the case.

But then I'm only just getting started in reading about it.