A Growing Pain for Atheists?

surferdude

Pegasus wrote:

Just don't bother other people who don't need, or have other beliefs, with it, least of all by telling them how to live their own lives (sexuality, contraception, abortion, wearing certain clothes etc).

Got news for you, living ina democracy is all about telling others how to live. Hell, you've just told a bunch of people how they should live with your post. Issues should be debated on the merits of the proposition and not where the ideaology for the idea comes form or who backs an idea.

deadnothingbetter

Songburst wrote:

The problem with basing a belief on experiences is that anything can be attributed to god if you want it to be. We as a society only attribute good things to god (ie Jane beat cancer -- it must have been god that did this for her). If I said that god was the reason that children get leukemia, I would get ridiculed for proposing such a preposterous sentiment. Everyone knows that it is Adam's fault that those kids have leukemia. It's pretty ridiculous when you look at it.

see, it's pointless trying to get into a "you said," "i said" debate. why can't we just take things for the way they are and allow the person to experience their own spiritual journey at a personal level? it's pointless trying to rationalize it and especially trying to rationalize it into someone's mind who does or doesn't believe. you can come up with debates about how adam and this don't make sense but who ever claimed that we could make sense of the bible and prove it as truth? that's why it's a persistent claim that we attribute it to our faith. i could go on and on and tell you that my experiences are not solely based on surviving cancer and miraculous happenings. my experiences are on a deeper and personal level, a statement that most christians claim that if you do not open your mind to these things you can never believe. but once you open your mind you will know what we're talking about. other than that, it's not our business. that is why i don't agree with those other guys, kirk and him, that they make it their business. but i also don't agree with atheists that most times they propose logic to discredit the idea or existence of a God. i know certain atheists claim that there probably is a God/creator of some sort but it's not important to know. all of that is not my business. when it becomes my business is when someone tries to give me logic and certain proofs to tell me, "see? your God doesn't exist."

deadnothingbetter

Binaural wrote:

This is somehting that really confuses and irritates me, Christians the world over will support murder or death in one way or another yet that whole "Thou shall not kill" thing seems pretty absolute to me.
Meh, if we're wrong and Christianity is the way to go all those soldiers etc will be wasting their time :rolleyes:

i don't believe in war.

edit: but i agree, there are a bunch of retarded christians out there that support those things. i don't know where the hell they come up with that.

Collin

deadnothingbetter wrote:

a statement that most christians claim that if you do not open your mind to these things you can never believe. but once you open your mind you will know what we're talking about.

How very condescending.

deadnothingbetter

Collin wrote:

How very condescending.

explain

Collin

deadnothingbetter wrote:

explain

I cannot expect you to understand, you believe in god but once you open your mind, you'll know what I'm talking about.

You see what I mean?

Songburst

deadnothingbetter wrote:

see, it's pointless trying to get into a "you said," "i said" debate. why can't we just take things for the way they are and allow the person to experience their own spiritual journey at a personal level? it's pointless trying to rationalize it and especially trying to rationalize it into someone's mind who does or doesn't believe. you can come up with debates about how adam and this don't make sense but who ever claimed that we could make sense of the bible and prove it as truth? that's why it's a persistent claim that we attribute it to our faith. i could go on and on and tell you that my experiences are not solely based on surviving cancer and miraculous happenings. my experiences are on a deeper and personal level, a statement that most christians claim that if you do not open your mind to these things you can never believe. but once you open your mind you will know what we're talking about. other than that, it's not our business. that is why i don't agree with those other guys, kirk and him, that they make it their business. but i also don't agree with atheists that most times they propose logic to discredit the idea or existence of a God. i know certain atheists claim that there probably is a God/creator of some sort but it's not important to know. all of that is not my business. when it becomes my business is when someone tries to give me logic and certain proofs to tell me, "see? your God doesn't exist."

I think that you and I have similar attitudes. I really don't care what other people think or believe, I am merely stating what I believe and why I think that the religions that men create are very flawed (including Christianity). The problem is that if you are a Christian (and I assume you are), you are mandated to "spread the word" because you are told that anyone who dies without Jesus goes to hell. It is also mandated for you to care enough about non-believers to convert them. Now, maybe you don't care about the fact that I am going to hell and if you don't, then I commend you, but that "spreading the word" mandate is really the key to debunking the Christian religion to me. If the religion is right, people wouldn't have to be frightened into believing it.

deadnothingbetter

Collin wrote:

I cannot expect you to understand, you believe in god but once you open your mind, you'll know what I'm talking about.

You see what I mean?

well, i've opened my mind to atheists. as best as i can, at least. that's why i'm constantly on here.

the difference about being an atheist, from what i can see, is that it's all based on logic, common sense and science and not necessarily about faith, or maybe even no faith at all. those are things that i am not against. so i can sympathize for an atheist about them considering me ludicrous for believing in such fairy tales because it all makes "sense", even to me. i am in a sense a minority. i am a minority in the sense that you've got everything to back up why you believe while i have nothing to back up my beliefs and my only response to you is faith. it's logical for someone to laugh at those concepts. even i would. so it all boils down easily for all of us being on the same page. there are things that you might say that i consider offensive even though you're intentions are not to offend me. that is why i say let's just take things as they are.

deadnothingbetter

Songburst wrote:

I think that you and I have similar attitudes. I really don't care what other people think or believe, I am merely stating what I believe and why I think that the religions that men create are very flawed (including Christianity). The problem is that if you are a Christian (and I assume you are), you are mandated to "spread the word" because you are told that anyone who dies without Jesus goes to hell. It is also mandated for you to care enough about non-believers to convert them. Now, maybe you don't care about the fact that I am going to hell and if you don't, then I commend you, but that "spreading the word" mandate is really the key to debunking the Christian religion to me. If the religion is right, people wouldn't have to be frightened into believing it.

i respect that you are "merely stating" your beliefs. but it's a kinda awkward situation... cause everyone has a right to state their beliefs. even if it means, "spreading the word". i mean, if someone gives you a trait while you're walking down the street why is it so hard just to take it as it is? i've had people of different kinds, jehovah witnesses, atheists, hindu's, mormons and beyond of all kinds spreading their beliefs to me in many ways. even drug dealers. this is america. we have a right to it. the problem is when we force it onto others. true. christians have their own ways of believing that you might not be in accordance with but by all means how many religions are there that we don't agree with? why spend a lifetime trying to "debunk" it?

Ahnimus

Deadnothingbetter is right. It's faith. It's a deeply embedded percept in the brain of the individual with a real priority to it. To the point that all rationalization is not required. It's really a control mechanism to get people thinking they just have to follow the word of the church and not think for themselves. People born into these teachings never develop the ability to think for themselves. Rather, they develop a strong relationship with faith. In-fact they typically stay away from issues that would spark rational debate.

There is quite the push now-a-days to rid the world of religion. I'm game, I just don't think it can be done anymore. The best we can do is keep the confusion rolling so that future generations have to at some point question their faith. I see only a small window of opportunity in a person's life to really make them think and it usually follows particular life experiences at particular ages. And like Constantine among others made damn sure that pagans, polytheists and atheists were gone almost completely. It's like we've had 2,000 years of devolving our brains.

I personally do not consider Christianity to be any worse than any other religion including newage. I find all those ideas not progressive. Like Emoto's water, it's just gonna set us on the wrong path trying to learn about nature. There is always a rather mundane explanation. It's beautiful how it all interacts none-the-less and atheists do typically take splendor in awing at nature in it's magnificence. But I mean, bees taking off from the hives, 2,000 years ago that would have been a curse. It would mean they displeased the Gods and it would probably be a well documented event in ancient mythological history. I mean, there are more progressive ways to look at life now. We have the tools now to see what's really going on if we are patient for the answers.

Scubascott

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well, i've opened my mind to atheists. as best as i can, at least. that's why i'm constantly on here.

the difference about being an atheist, from what i can see, is that it's all based on logic, common sense and science and not necessarily about faith, or maybe even no faith at all. those are things that i am not against. so i can sympathize for an atheist about them considering me ludicrous for believing in such fairy tales because it all makes "sense", even to me. i am in a sense a minority. i am a minority in the sense that you've got everything to back up why you believe while i have nothing to back up my beliefs and my only response to you is faith. it's logical for someone to laugh at those concepts. even i would. so it all boils down easily for all of us being on the same page. there are things that you might say that i consider offensive even though you're intentions are not to offend me. that is why i say let's just take things as they are.

I respect this perspective. Faith should be about faith in my opinion. You can't and shouldn't try to justify or rationalise faith. If you feel you need to do so, you obviously don't have enough faith in whatever you believe.

The thing that causes me to instantly lose respect for some religious people is when they try to justify their faith by attacking the beliefs of others, or worse still, distorting or flat out denying the realities presented by science. To do so seems completely nonsensical to me.

deadnothingbetter

Ahnimus wrote:

Deadnothingbetter is right. It's faith. It's a deeply embedded percept in the brain of the individual with a real priority to it. To the point that all rationalization is not required. It's really a control mechanism to get people thinking they just have to follow the word of the church and not think for themselves. People born into these teachings never develop the ability to think for themselves. Rather, they develop a strong relationship with faith. In-fact they typically stay away from issues that would spark rational debate.

There is quite the push now-a-days to rid the world of religion. I'm game, I just don't think it can be done anymore. The best we can do is keep the confusion rolling so that future generations have to at some point question their faith. I see only a small window of opportunity in a person's life to really make them think and it usually follows particular life experiences at particular ages. And like Constantine among others made damn sure that pagans, polytheists and atheists were gone almost completely. It's like we've had 2,000 years of devolving our brains.

I personally do not consider Christianity to be any worse than any other religion including newage. I find all those ideas not progressive. Like Emoto's water, it's just gonna set us on the wrong path trying to learn about nature. There is always a rather mundane explanation. It's beautiful how it all interacts none-the-less and atheists do typically take splendor in awing at nature in it's magnificence. But I mean, bees taking off from the hives, 2,000 years ago that would have been a curse. It would mean they displeased the Gods and it would probably be a well documented event in ancient mythological history. I mean, there are more progressive ways to look at life now. We have the tools now to see what's really going on if we are patient for the answers.

oh ahnimus, you're such a silly silly little guy. i'm always up for a debate but where's the part in our brains that tell us that debate is useless?

i mean, you're objectives are clearly what i'm speaking of why spend a lifetime trying to discredit the beliefs of others? this is when i can gather up all my confidence and say, you're a nerd, man. j/k

deadnothingbetter

Scubascott wrote:

I respect this perspective. Faith should be about faith in my opinion. You can't and shouldn't try to justify or rationalise faith. If you feel you need to do so, you obviously don't have enough faith in whatever you believe.

The thing that causes me to instantly lose respect for some religious people is when they try to justify their faith by attacking the beliefs of others, or worse still, distorting or flat out denying the realities presented by science. To do so seems completely nonsensical to me.

amen

OutOfBreath

Ahnimus wrote:

Deadnothingbetter is right. It's faith. It's a deeply embedded percept in the brain of the individual with a real priority to it. To the point that all rationalization is not required. It's really a control mechanism to get people thinking they just have to follow the word of the church and not think for themselves. People born into these teachings never develop the ability to think for themselves. Rather, they develop a strong relationship with faith. In-fact they typically stay away from issues that would spark rational debate.

So how do you explain me here then? I am born and raised into those teachings, yet reject them.

There is quite the push now-a-days to rid the world of religion. I'm game, I just don't think it can be done anymore. The best we can do is keep the confusion rolling so that future generations have to at some point question their faith. I see only a small window of opportunity in a person's life to really make them think and it usually follows particular life experiences at particular ages. And like Constantine among others made damn sure that pagans, polytheists and atheists were gone almost completely. It's like we've had 2,000 years of devolving our brains.

How optimistic of you. I for one, think we never stop learning, and we can always change our beliefs. The church did supress other ideas for a while, sure. But that's over and done with for a long time now.

I personally do not consider Christianity to be any worse than any other religion including newage. I find all those ideas not progressive. Like Emoto's water, it's just gonna set us on the wrong path trying to learn about nature. There is always a rather mundane explanation. It's beautiful how it all interacts none-the-less and atheists do typically take splendor in awing at nature in it's magnificence. But I mean, bees taking off from the hives, 2,000 years ago that would have been a curse. It would mean they displeased the Gods and it would probably be a well documented event in ancient mythological history. I mean, there are more progressive ways to look at life now. We have the tools now to see what's really going on if we are patient for the answers.

We can explain some things now, certainly. Far from everything. And as long as total understanding eludes us, and probably always will, it helps to keep an open mind about things we dont know or are not certain of yet. Develop science, certainly. But dont narrow the scope of human thought into what science knows for sure, cause that ain't as much as we'd like to think.

Peace
Dan

Scubascott

OutOfBreath wrote:

The church did supress other ideas for a while, sure. But that's over and done with for a long time now.

I'm not so sure about that. They might not have the power to supress ideas anymore (in the west anyway), but they certainly know how to fight them. In fact its not even ideas that their fighting, its worse. They're fighting reality. Take the whole intelligent design argument for example.

OutOfBreath wrote:

We can explain some things now, certainly. Far from everything. And as long as total understanding eludes us, and probably always will, it helps to keep an open mind about things we dont know or are not certain of yet. Develop science, certainly. But dont narrow the scope of human thought into what science knows for sure, cause that ain't as much as we'd like to think.

Peace
Dan

I completely agree. Ahnimus I get the impression sometimes that you feel that science can provide all the answers. As a scientist, its important to be aware that you NEVER have all the answers, and we don't always have the tools to look for them. I'm pretty sure that there are some questions that will always remain beyond the reach of scientific investigation. However, I'll qualify that by saying that this does not mean that I think we should turn to mystical or supernatural explanations. All I mean is that some things will likely never be explained, and are perhaps best left that way.

OutOfBreath

Scubascott wrote:

I'm not so sure about that. They might not have the power to supress ideas anymore (in the west anyway), but they certainly know how to fight them. In fact its not even ideas that their fighting, its worse. They're fighting reality. Take the whole intelligent design argument for example.

Oh, they fight, but they have lost much if not all of the power to supress. The church can't dominate society anymore like it used to.

I completely agree. Ahnimus I get the impression sometimes that you feel that science can provide all the answers. As a scientist, its important to be aware that you NEVER have all the answers, and we don't always have the tools to look for them. I'm pretty sure that there are some questions that will always remain beyond the reach of scientific investigation. However, I'll qualify that by saying that this does not mean that I think we should turn to mystical or supernatural explanations. All I mean is that some things will likely never be explained, and are perhaps best left that way.

I'm not saying we should turn to mystical explanations either necessarily, and certainly treat them with scepticism. But I am willing to hear them out and entertain the idea that they may be right. Particularly on subjects where science stops short and are unable to provide a scientific answer. Meaning is in any case something we create outside science.

Peace
Dan

Scubascott

OutOfBreath wrote:

Oh, they fight, but they have lost much if not all of the power to supress. The church can't dominate society anymore like it used to.

Not in your country or mine maybe, but look at what happens in the US. Christian lobby groups pressure the government into making all kinds of retarded decisions. I think that schools in Arkansas teaching kids 'Intelligent design theory' really amounts to the same thing as the catholic church surpressing ideas in europe in years gone by.

And its not just the christian church thats guilty of this sort of thing. What about Islam's power to supress ideas in Iran or Saudi Arabia or Afganistan?

OutOfBreath

Scubascott wrote:

Not in your country or mine maybe, but look at what happens in the US. Christian lobby groups pressure the government into making all kinds of retarded decisions. I think that schools in Arkansas teaching kids 'Intelligent design theory' really amounts to the same thing as the catholic church surpressing ideas in europe in years gone by.

And its not just the christian church thats guilty of this sort of thing. What about Islam's power to supress ideas in Iran or Saudi Arabia or Afganistan?

Won't argue that. But apart from Iran, which is kind of a special case, it isn't as bad as it has been in the past. I'm frustrated with ID people and creationists as well, and those seem to have a bit more influence in the US.

I don't like them either, but I dont view it as black as Ahnimus expressed.

Peace
Dan