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A Growing Pain for Atheists?

AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
edited May 2007 in A Moving Train
Growing Pains star Kirk Cameron and evangelist friend Ray Comfort go up against the atheist group Rational Response Squad on ABC Nightline.

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3148940&page=1

Use the video player on the right.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    I'll pass... I don't care what either side really says, I don't have a horse in this race.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Ooh, taken out of context, sort-of

    "You are a self-admitted, lying, thieving, blasphemer and adulterer at heart." - Ray Comfort

    This guy paints a pretty picture. 'You' are a constant. If you commit a sin, 'You' are a sinner. I tend to view 'You' as a changing pattern. A rearrangement of matter into a beautiful pattern. The pattern constantly changes, we constantly change. 'You' are like a beautiful tapestry that changes with time and when someone views the tapestry it manifests a representation of one or more of their traits. That's about as buttery as I can get :)
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • prismprism Posts: 2,440
    I love how they got completely dumb-founded when they were asked "if God created everything who created God?"
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  • cornnifercornnifer Posts: 2,130
    prism wrote:
    I love how they got completely dumb-founded when they were asked "if God created everything who created God?"

    i'm pretty dumbfounded to that someone would actually ask such a stupid question as if its some profound philosophical sticking point, and expect to be taken seriously.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    If 'Left Behind' means that Kirk Cameron is gone off the planet... how is it a 'Bad' thing? As long as he takes his 'Growing Pains' reruns with him.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
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  • normnorm Posts: 31,146
    was boner there?
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    cornnifer wrote:
    i'm pretty dumbfounded to that someone would actually ask such a stupid question as if its some profound philosophical sticking point, and expect to be taken seriously.

    Why?
    Is it because it was God's father that created God? His name was God, too?

    So, God really may just be God Jr.?
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  • cornnifercornnifer Posts: 2,130
    gue_barium wrote:
    Why?
    Is it because it was God's father that created God? His name was God, too?

    So, God really may just be God Jr.?
    ????????????? uhhh..., what...??????????????
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • Dustin51Dustin51 Posts: 222
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Growing Pains star Kirk Cameron and evangelist friend Ray Comfort go up against the atheist group Rational Response Squad on ABC Nightline.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3148940&page=1

    Use the video player on the right.

    Kirk Cameron! That guy is a tremendous DouceBag...the one thing positive I will say about him is that he seems to genuienly believe in God which I dont think you can say about a lot of those God freaks.
    Be excellent to each other
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    cornnifer wrote:
    i'm pretty dumbfounded to that someone would actually ask such a stupid question as if its some profound philosophical sticking point, and expect to be taken seriously.

    Why is it a stupid question?
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  • cornnifercornnifer Posts: 2,130
    Collin wrote:
    Why is it a stupid question?

    The concept of God implies no need for God to have a creator. God is timeless.
    i don't have a problem with the question as it is hardly challenging. i just have to shake my head when folks offer it as a profound philosophical point. Its kindergarten philosophy, really.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    cornnifer wrote:
    The concept of God implies no need for God to have a creator. God is timeless.
    i don't have a problem with the question as it is hardly challenging. i just have to shake my head when folks offer it as a profound philosophical point. Its kindergarten philosophy, really.
    It does pose a philosophical point. Basically, if God is timeless, i.e. outside of time, then from the ultimate perspective (God's), past, present and future are all the same. God already knows everything, including what we will do "years" before we are even conceived, and therefore has created a "predestined" universe where free-will is just an illusion.

    In other words, a man or woman can only repent if God created them to repent.

    In other other words, God created people with the specific purpose of populating Hell.
  • cornnifercornnifer Posts: 2,130
    RainDog wrote:
    It does pose a philosophical point. Basically, if God is timeless, i.e. outside of time, then from the ultimate perspective (God's), past, present and future are all the same. God already knows everything, including what we will do "years" before we are even conceived, and therefore has created a "predestined" universe where free-will is just an illusion.

    In other words, a man or woman can only repent if God created them to repent.

    In other other words, God created people with the specific purpose of populating Hell.

    Where your philosophy here sounds impressive, it assumes alot. i really don't think the idea of a timeless God implies human predestination or illusionary free-will.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    cornnifer wrote:
    The concept of God implies no need for God to have a creator. God is timeless.
    i don't have a problem with the question as it is hardly challenging. i just have to shake my head when folks offer it as a profound philosophical point. Its kindergarten philosophy, really.

    So, for you God is Timelessness.
    That's nice.

    I made a suggestion to you in one of these threads about that, about the timelessness of God, and you replied with the non-answer of "why are you picking on me."

    So, for you:

    God is Timeless Philosphy.
    That's nice.
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  • cornnifercornnifer Posts: 2,130
    gue_barium wrote:
    So, for you God is Timelessness.
    That's nice.

    I made a suggestion to you in one of these threads about that, about the timelessness of God, and you replied with the non-answer of "why are you picking on me."

    So, for you:

    God is Timeless Philosphy.
    That's nice.
    ????????????? uhhh..., what...??????????????
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    cornnifer wrote:
    Where your philosophy here sounds impressive, it assumes alot. i really don't think the idea of a timeless God implies human predestination or illusionary free-will.
    Either God is subject to the flow of time, or time is subject to the will of God.

    I suppose it depends on what you're implying by the word "timeless." If you intend for it to mean "immortal," that God will always exist but isn't prescient, then God is subject to the flow of time. If that's the case, then there may have been a beginning to God, as "beginning" and "end" imply the passage of time, which in this scenario is more powerful than God himself.

    If by "timeless" you mean outside of time, then we have what I mentioned in my previous post - past, present and future are all the same from the ultimate perspective. Under this scenario, God may be the source of time itself and is therefore not constrained by it. As such, the universe can be compared to a film with God as its auteur. The characters - us - never realize that we're in a film and tend to our daily lives as though our own motives and desires are driving us; that we have free will. From the outside perspective, though, these are not real people, they are not making 'their own decisions', but rather were written and "predestined". Time is merely the length of the film and can be fast-forwarded and rewound at will.
  • cornnifercornnifer Posts: 2,130
    RainDog wrote:
    Either God is subject to the flow of time, or time is subject to the will of God.

    I suppose it depends on what you're implying by the word "timeless." If you intend for it to mean "immortal," that God will always exist but isn't prescient, then God is subject to the flow of time. If that's the case, then there may have been a beginning to God, as "beginning" and "end" imply the passage of time, which in this scenario is more powerful than God himself.

    If by "timeless" you mean outside of time, then we have what I mentioned in my previous post - past, present and future are all the same from the ultimate perspective. Under this scenario, God may be the source of time itself and is therefore not constrained by it. As such, the universe can be compared to a film with God as its auteur. The characters - us - never realize that we're in a film and tend to our daily lives as though our own motives and desires are driving us; that we have free will. From the outside perspective, though, these are not real people, they are not making 'their own decisions', but rather were written and "predestined". Time is merely the length of the film and can be fast-forwarded and rewound at will.
    Or you could also have a situation where God exists outside of time, but we as humans still operate within its constraints. Where we are instilled with free will and allowed to write our own script.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    cornnifer wrote:
    ????????????? uhhh..., what...??????????????

    Basically, it seems to me, God for you is those things you can't answer for what's coming, kind of mixed in with some sort of answer for where you came from and where you're going.
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  • cornnifercornnifer Posts: 2,130
    gue_barium wrote:
    Basically, it seems to me, God for you is those things you can't answer for what's coming, kind of mixed in with some sort of answer for where you came from and where you're going.
    ????????????? uhhh..., what...??????????????
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    cornnifer wrote:
    ????????????? uhhh..., what...??????????????

    Ok...I gotcha. Nevermind all that other stuff.

    God is a Space Alien.
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    God is a childish philosophy
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • RainDogRainDog Posts: 1,824
    cornnifer wrote:
    Or you could also have a situation where God exists outside of time, but we as humans still operate within its constraints. Where we are instilled with free will and allowed to write our own script.
    But if God already knows the outcome of that script, then the free will we are instilled with is only an illusion, as God is the ultimate reality.

    If, on the other hand, God doesn't know the outcome of that script, then free will is possible - i.e. you can "surprise" God by doing something other than what he scripted - only now God isn't the ultimate reality, as time is more powerful than he is.

    A possible third way is God is separate from the universe and has no ongoing contact with it. The universe began and ended in the blink of his eye. Here, free will is debatable.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    God is a childish philosophy

    It is. It's psychology/philosphy mixed.

    Or, the absent parent.

    The bastard child.

    vanity.

    longing.

    news.

    what the?

    i'm not what?

    this could turn into

    a haiku, if i let it.
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  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    RainDog wrote:
    It does pose a philosophical point. Basically, if God is timeless, i.e. outside of time, then from the ultimate perspective (God's), past, present and future are all the same. God already knows everything, including what we will do "years" before we are even conceived, and therefore has created a "predestined" universe where free-will is just an illusion.

    In other words, a man or woman can only repent if God created them to repent.

    In other other words, God created people with the specific purpose of populating Hell.


    what? people talk like God is the grand moderator of everything. God doesn't interfere with earthly events. he made this covenant with noah after the flood and gave us a rainbow as a sign. there have been signs of his extixtance since then but no real intervention. we are left to destroy ourselves and we're doing a good job of it.
  • Born2JamBorn2Jam Posts: 255
    onelongsong wrote:
    what? people talk like God is the grand moderator of everything. God doesn't interfere with earthly events. he made this covenant with noah after the flood and gave us a rainbow as a sign. there have been signs of his extixtance since then but no real intervention. we are left to destroy ourselves and we're doing a good job of it.

    Amen.
    "This band has provided many people a soundtrack to their lives.." ~ CitizenRick
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    onelongsong wrote:
    what? people talk like God is the grand moderator of everything. God doesn't interfere with earthly events. he made this covenant with noah after the flood and gave us a rainbow as a sign. there have been signs of his extixtance since then but no real intervention. we are left to destroy ourselves and we're doing a good job of it.

    God is the grand moderator of everything, here. If she doesn't like your style, you're banned.
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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Born2Jam wrote:
    Amen.

    Quit that. Silliness isn't becoming of you.
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Why do they always ignore the brain?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Dustin51Dustin51 Posts: 222
    Anyone have a theory on what time zone God is in?
    Be excellent to each other
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Dustin51 wrote:
    Anyone have a theory on what time zone God is in?

    The eternal time-zone apparently.

    Oh, and Hitler and Stalin were atheists... NOT!

    I swear Kirk and Ray got their 'facts' from conservapedia.com
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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