But if God already knows the outcome of that script, then the free will we are instilled with is only an illusion, as God is the ultimate reality.
If, on the other hand, God doesn't know the outcome of that script, then free will is possible - i.e. you can "surprise" God by doing something other than what he scripted - only now God isn't the ultimate reality, as time is more powerful than he is.
A possible third way is God is separate from the universe and has no ongoing contact with it. The universe began and ended in the blink of his eye. Here, free will is debatable.
Or you can always take the easy way out and say that since our knowledge and understanding is extremely limited next to god's infinite knowledge we cannot conceptualize his point of view. It's coherent with a complex god, it's a simple answer. But it's not really mind stimulating.
what? people talk like God is the grand moderator of everything. God doesn't interfere with earthly events. he made this covenant with noah after the flood and gave us a rainbow as a sign. there have been signs of his extixtance since then but no real intervention. we are left to destroy ourselves and we're doing a good job of it.
Didn't Jesus come after Noah? Maybe I'm nitpicking, but I'd call creating yourself in the form of a man so that you can die, be resurrected, and thereby forgive all earthly transgressions to be an example of intervention. If you're a Christian, that is.
But you are touching on a point I've been kicking around lately. Personally, I don't believe in Noah or the Biblical flood; but I do agree that God (if he exists - I'm still kicking that one around, too) not only doesn't interfere, but can't. Divine Intervention - either God stopping something or causing something - implies an ignorance of future events, which is impossible for an all knowing and all powerful God.
Or you can always take the easy way out and say that since our knowledge and understanding is extremely limited next to god's infinite knowledge we cannot conceptualize his point of view. It's coherent with a complex god, it's a simple answer. But it's not really mind stimulating.
True. But I could also say that volcanic eruptions are caused by dragons.
Both sides fudging facts. Like "Hitler and Stalin were athiests" or "90% of Sweden are Atheists" lies, lies and more lies. Hitler was a Roman Catholic and Stalin was Orthodox Christian and only 80% of sweden are atheists.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
True. But I could also say that volcanic eruptions are caused by dragons.
I'm all for dragons as a means to explain stuff.
(I still think it makes sense to consider that since we are infinitely less complex than god we should have a hard time understanding what he is all about)
Both sides fudging facts. Like "Hitler and Stalin were athiests" or "90% of Sweden are Atheists" lies, lies and more lies. Hitler was a Roman Catholic and Stalin was Orthodox Christian and only 80% of sweden are atheists.
Well if Stalin was orthodox he should have sent himself to the goulag according to his laws... damn hypocrite!
I'm all for dragons as a means to explain stuff.
(I still think it makes sense to consider that since we are infinitely less complex than god we should have a hard time understanding what he is all about)
I've no problem with that, provided the idea isn't used as an excuse to turn a blind eye to reality (young earthers, I'm looking at you!! )
But, I mostly joined this thread to say that the question "what created God" doesn't necessarily stem from "kindergarden philosophy."
The question is legitimate, as are all questions. I guess providing an answer and holding it for sure is what may seem kindergarten like (and that goes both ways).
I had a teacher who taught us that believing in God is a nice idea as long as it doesn't keep you from asking questions and trying to answer, on everything.
Something that does not exist is not infintely more complex than me.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I'm going to puke if I have to listen to anymore new-age rehtoric and verbal sewage today.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Hitler was a Roman Catholic and Stalin was Orthodox Christian.
A religious affiliation isn't something you are but a belief and a way to live life. Neither Hitler nor Stalin came anywhere close to living the life of a Roman Catholic or Orthodox Christian.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
...
1. In the beginning, Man created God; and in the image of Man, created he Him.
2. And Man gave unto God a multitude of names, that he might be Lord of all the Earth when it was suited to Man.
3. And on the seven millionth day Man rested and did lean heavily on his God and saw that it was good.
4. And Man formed Evenflow of the dust of the ground, and a host of others likened unto his kind.
5. And these lesser men were cast into the void; And some were burned, and some were put apart from their kind.
6. And Man became the God that he had created and with his miracles did rule over all the earth.
7. But, as all these things came to pass, the Spirit that did cause man to create his God lived on within all men: even within Evenflow.
8. And man saw it not.
9. But, for Christ's sake he'd better start looking.
God created man in his own image; but not the earthly image. our bodies are simply vehicles for life on this earth and the true image is revieled at death.
A religious affiliation isn't something you are but a belief and a way to live life. Neither Hitler nor Stalin came anywhere close to living the life of a Roman Catholic or Orthodox Christian.
you're right. saying you are something and living it are two different things.
you're right. saying you are something and living it are two different things.
...
So, what about that whole, 'Turning the other cheek' thing? Does that mean that soldiers aren't Christians? Or is that one of those, 'Jesus spoke in parables' thing?
Just wondering aloud.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
A religious affiliation isn't something you are but a belief and a way to live life. Neither Hitler nor Stalin came anywhere close to living the life of a Roman Catholic or Orthodox Christian.
But they did live the life of the athiest though right? There are shitty religious people and shitty non-religious people. Nothing will change that. Some people need religion to explain the unexplainable or to provide comfort through tough times. Me, I just roll with life. I know that the divinity in Bible is a complete fabrication. I'm pretty sure that there isn't a god and if there is, I'm sure that he would give two shits if I didn't believe in him while I was alive. If he would be so petty as to torture my soul for thinking a certain way while I was alive, I say fuck him.
1/12/1879, 4/8/1156, 2/6/1977, who gives a shit, ...
But they did live the life of the athiest though right? There are shitty religious people and shitty non-religious people. Nothing will change that. Some people need religion to explain the unexplainable or to provide comfort through tough times. Me, I just roll with life. I know that the divinity in Bible is a complete fabrication. I'm pretty sure that there isn't a god and if there is, I'm sure that he would give two shits if I didn't believe in him while I was alive. If he would be so petty as to torture my soul for thinking a certain way while I was alive, I say fuck him.
I just heard that 'Son Of Sam' is a Born Again... just like a lot of convicted murderers. They find redemption and seek forgiveness in prison (because what the hell else you gonna do... you're in a goddamn prison).
another question pops to mind... if Berkowitz truely believes this in his heart and dedicates the rest of his life to Jesus... what happens to him when he dies?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I just heard that 'Son Of Sam' is a Born Again... just like a lot of convicted murderers. They find redemption and seek forgiveness in prison (because what the hell else you gonna do... you're in a goddamn prison).
another question pops to mind... if Berkowitz truely believes this in his heart and dedicates the rest of his life to Jesus... what happens to him when he dies?
My understanding says he gets accepted into heaven. But heaven's been described as a big mansion with many rooms. I'm sure some rooms are nicer than others. I have no idea if acceptance into heaven means you have free access to all the rooms.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
...
So, what about that whole, 'Turning the other cheek' thing? Does that mean that soldiers aren't Christians? Or is that one of those, 'Jesus spoke in parables' thing?
Just wondering aloud.
Kirk was convince he was an atheist yet again.....I'm thinking the Christians should have brought more firepower....these two were pretty weak....but then so is the whole christian thing anyway...
I love how they got completely dumb-founded when they were asked "if God created everything who created God?"
i think that's a pretty stupid question. God doesn't exist within the realms of time, space and matter. this question is kinda awkward... for the lack of a better term.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
It does pose a philosophical point. Basically, if God is timeless, i.e. outside of time, then from the ultimate perspective (God's), past, present and future are all the same. God already knows everything, including what we will do "years" before we are even conceived, and therefore has created a "predestined" universe where free-will is just an illusion.
In other words, a man or woman can only repent if God created them to repent.
In other other words, God created people with the specific purpose of populating Hell.
Actually, God knows everything from the here and now to the there and then. But God never interfere's in our lives and our choices. He only gives us choices to make and gives us advice to make the right choices. Ultimately, we are in charge of our own destiny.
My high school teacher gave me this argument when I was about 15.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
But if God already knows the outcome of that script, then the free will we are instilled with is only an illusion, as God is the ultimate reality.
If, on the other hand, God doesn't know the outcome of that script, then free will is possible - i.e. you can "surprise" God by doing something other than what he scripted - only now God isn't the ultimate reality, as time is more powerful than he is.
A possible third way is God is separate from the universe and has no ongoing contact with it. The universe began and ended in the blink of his eye. Here, free will is debatable.
grab yourself a rug and spread pieces of crumbs all over it. then shake it off. God knows exactly where every piece of crumb will fall. He is the creator of physics, science and chemistry. He knows the equations to life as well. God knows, based on the "pieces of crumbs"(choices) that were spread on our "rug" (life), where each piece we've layed in our lives will eventually lead us to.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
grab yourself a rug and spread pieces of crumbs all over it. then shake it off. God knows exactly where every piece of crumb will fall. He is the creator of physics, science and chemistry. He knows the equations to life as well. God knows, based on the "pieces of crumbs"(choices) that were spread on our "rug" (life), where each piece we've layed in our lives will eventually lead us to.
Haha. Wow.
1/12/1879, 4/8/1156, 2/6/1977, who gives a shit, ...
Comments
Or you can always take the easy way out and say that since our knowledge and understanding is extremely limited next to god's infinite knowledge we cannot conceptualize his point of view. It's coherent with a complex god, it's a simple answer. But it's not really mind stimulating.
But you are touching on a point I've been kicking around lately. Personally, I don't believe in Noah or the Biblical flood; but I do agree that God (if he exists - I'm still kicking that one around, too) not only doesn't interfere, but can't. Divine Intervention - either God stopping something or causing something - implies an ignorance of future events, which is impossible for an all knowing and all powerful God.
Both sides fudging facts. Like "Hitler and Stalin were athiests" or "90% of Sweden are Atheists" lies, lies and more lies. Hitler was a Roman Catholic and Stalin was Orthodox Christian and only 80% of sweden are atheists.
I'm all for dragons as a means to explain stuff.
(I still think it makes sense to consider that since we are infinitely less complex than god we should have a hard time understanding what he is all about)
Well if Stalin was orthodox he should have sent himself to the goulag according to his laws... damn hypocrite!
But, I mostly joined this thread to say that the question "what created God" doesn't necessarily stem from "kindergarden philosophy."
I had a teacher who taught us that believing in God is a nice idea as long as it doesn't keep you from asking questions and trying to answer, on everything.
1. In the beginning, Man created God; and in the image of Man, created he Him.
2. And Man gave unto God a multitude of names, that he might be Lord of all the Earth when it was suited to Man.
3. And on the seven millionth day Man rested and did lean heavily on his God and saw that it was good.
4. And Man formed Evenflow of the dust of the ground, and a host of others likened unto his kind.
5. And these lesser men were cast into the void; And some were burned, and some were put apart from their kind.
6. And Man became the God that he had created and with his miracles did rule over all the earth.
7. But, as all these things came to pass, the Spirit that did cause man to create his God lived on within all men: even within Evenflow.
8. And man saw it not.
9. But, for Christ's sake he'd better start looking.
Hail, Hail!!!
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
God created man in his own image; but not the earthly image. our bodies are simply vehicles for life on this earth and the true image is revieled at death.
you're right. saying you are something and living it are two different things.
So, what about that whole, 'Turning the other cheek' thing? Does that mean that soldiers aren't Christians? Or is that one of those, 'Jesus spoke in parables' thing?
Just wondering aloud.
Hail, Hail!!!
But they did live the life of the athiest though right? There are shitty religious people and shitty non-religious people. Nothing will change that. Some people need religion to explain the unexplainable or to provide comfort through tough times. Me, I just roll with life. I know that the divinity in Bible is a complete fabrication. I'm pretty sure that there isn't a god and if there is, I'm sure that he would give two shits if I didn't believe in him while I was alive. If he would be so petty as to torture my soul for thinking a certain way while I was alive, I say fuck him.
and expect him to say that to you.
another question pops to mind... if Berkowitz truely believes this in his heart and dedicates the rest of his life to Jesus... what happens to him when he dies?
Hail, Hail!!!
I'll take my chances.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
The SENS over the Sabres in 5
The ONLY thing better than a glass of beer is tea with Miss McGill
A protuberance of flesh above the waistband of a tight pair of trousers
excellent question.
naděje umírá poslední
the chances of someone like berkowitz inheriting the kingdom of God is like jenna jamison becoming a nun.
He has as much of a chance as anyone else.
look more into the scriptures and he actually doesn't.
My high school teacher gave me this argument when I was about 15.
Haha. Wow.