wow, never have i ever met people with such hostile attitudes when it concerns my faith.
yeah, not very respectful to a person in general. people can say whatever they want about God, make jokes etc., but when their life is required of them, it'll be very interesting to say the least.
But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgement(Matthew 12:36).
I died. I died and you just stood there. I died and you watched. I died and you walked by and said no. I'm dead.
yeah, not very respectful to a person in general. people can say whatever they want about God, make jokes etc., but when their life is required of them, it'll be very interesting to say the least.
But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgement(Matthew 12:36).
well, i personally don't agree with the way kirk and the other dudes are advocating their message. they're morons if you ask me. and half the time they really don't know what they're talking about. also, i don't agree you can prove God. that's ridiculous. those guys need to seriously get a life. of course people are going to get offended by the way they present the message.
i think it's people like them who make unbelievers have hostile attitudes against people like me. not that i'm any better or any holier but i believe that there is a better way of sharing the message. it starts by not enforcing it on others and not shoving it at their faces like kirk cameron and the other guy did. i've seen those dudes before and the first time i saw it, "i thought wow these guys don't have a clue of what they're saying."
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
They asked "Who created God?" and "if God can be infinite why can't the universe be infinite?"
My response, who created the universe? did it create itself? If they say, who created God, then who created the universe? They answered their own question.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
They asked "Who created God?" and "if God can be infinite why can't the universe be infinite?"
My response, who created the universe? did it create itself? If they say, who created God, then who created the universe? They answered their own question.
But if the universe/existence is indeed infinite in some way (even if it changes form), then it negates the need for a creator. What they (the rational response squad) were suggesting is that god is an extra cog that is not needed to explain our origins. That does not disprove god- I doubt it will be ever possible to disprove a concept that exists only in the mind.
What it does suggest though is that god cannot be proven scientifically. If you want to believe in god, by all means do it. But justify it with faith, personal reflection etc., not through evidence or some logic of the universe argument.
wow, never have i ever met people with such hostile attitudes when it concerns my faith.
The hostility is not aimed at your personal faith. It is aimed at the need for a faith in general. I'm pretty sure that there is no god and the need for one is fast becoming obsolete in our lives. Although we will never see it in our lifetimes, the whole church/god thing will disappear from society eventually (assuming that we last long enough) and it will be replaced by something else. You can debate whether replacing a faith in god with the realization that we are a freak of nature is good or bad, but the fact is that religions change and the next natural progression for us as a society is to get the fuck rid of it. Religious influence is way too powerful and it is overly abused to be productive for any society.
1/12/1879, 4/8/1156, 2/6/1977, who gives a shit, ...
But if the universe/existence is indeed infinite in some way (even if it changes form), then it negates the need for a creator. What they (the rational response squad) were suggesting is that god is an extra cog that is not needed to explain our origins. That does not disprove god- I doubt it will be ever possible to disprove a concept that exists only in the mind.
What it does suggest though is that god cannot be proven scientifically. If you want to believe in god, by all means do it. But justify it with faith, personal reflection etc., not through evidence or some logic of the universe argument.
maybe it's because the universe is coexistent with God. in some nature, the universe is God.
i agree, however, that my belief in God is justified by my faith. that is why i don't support those other dudes by them saying that you can prove the existence of God without faith. i'm not at all surprised that they were roasted in their own environment - a CHURCH!
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
The hostility is not aimed at your personal faith. It is aimed at the need for a faith in general. I'm pretty sure that there is no god and the need for one is fast becoming obsolete in our lives. Although we will never see it in our lifetimes, the whole church/god thing will disappear from society eventually (assuming that we last long enough) and it will be replaced by something else. You can debate whether replacing a faith in god with the realization that we are a freak of nature is good or bad, but the fact is that religions change and the next natural progression for us as a society is to get the fuck rid of it. Religious influence is way too powerful and it is overly abused to be productive for any society.
well, i don't believe in debates... particularly when it concerns my faith. i could see the way you see it and tell myself there is no God and i find no reason to believe in one because I as a human just like you can rationalize this in my mind. there was only one thing that Kirk Cameron said that was true that my faith and belief in God is due to personal experiences that I've had. you can debate like the other guy and say that you can grow up believing that a gnome is always standing behind your shoulder and corrolate that with experiences and form that as a belief. well, even if it were so if the person finds happiness and strives for things in life because it is their beliefs that keep them going well why spend a lifetime trying to discredit those possibilities? that is my only argument against atheists. if they don't believe in a God, more power to them. they can have their beliefs but allow us to have our own. and if it is societies objective to get rid of religion, go for it. i'm with you on that one cause I personally don't believe that religion has anything to do with God.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
the chances of someone like berkowitz inheriting the kingdom of God is like jenna jamison becoming a nun.
...
Still... there is all that repetance stuff, right? See... that is where I get so confused. Son Of Sam can accept Jesus... and some Christians say he is forgiven of his sins by Jesus and gets into Heaven... but, that little Jewish gal he shot in the face... she goes to Hell. It just don't seem to make sense to me.
And as for the different rooms in Heaven... that sounds like a class system in Heaven where there are 'better' or richer people and poorer people in Heaven, too. Sounds kinda shitty... being in Heaven and still having doors shut in your face.
Seems to me, a better system would be... you do shitty stuff to people down here... not matter what you believe... you get the shit end of the stick after you die. If you are a descent person down here and care about others and DO things for others, no matter what you believe, you get into the arena for the big gig. Because underneath it all... under our skins and our faiths... we are ALL Humans before we are anything else.
But, that's just me. I'm not a Theologist or an expert on scriptures or any of that... I'm just some dude down here trying to get by. I believe being nice is unconditional... I do not expect anything in return, although, good things just seem to happen for me at times, which I credit to Karma... I do things for people just because it's the right thing to do. I know I could do more, but I know I am lazy. No excuses... just who I am.
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I'm pretty sure that there is no god and the need for one is fast becoming obsolete in our lives. Although we will never see it in our lifetimes, the whole church/god thing will disappear from society eventually (assuming that we last long enough) and it will be replaced by something else.
In western society maybe, but all middle easter and asian societies are far from forgetting god and religion. Personnaly I fear we abandon the idea of a God, of believing without seeing. Replacing God with the allmighty science textbook is, well at least I see it that way, dangerous too. Just like western societies are more and more alienating themselves from nature we are starting to alienate ourselves from spirituality and I think nature and spirituality are necessary for the human mind. Religion is far from being something new, and I doubt that loosing something as old (maybe older) than language is such a good idea.
Now I can easily agree that some religious people are arrogant stupid fucks who make you wish the concept of a God never existed.
but, that little Jewish gal he shot in the face... she goes to Hell. It just don't seem to make sense to me.
That doesn't make sense. People arguing about that seem to forget that J. Christ wasn't a christian himself. So technically he shouldn't go to heaven either.
well, i don't believe in debates... particularly when it concerns my faith. i could see the way you see it and tell myself there is no God and i find no reason to believe in one because I as a human just like you can rationalize this in my mind. there was only one thing that Kirk Cameron said that was true that my faith and belief in God is due to personal experiences that I've had. you can debate like the other guy and say that you can grow up believing that a gnome is always standing behind your shoulder and corrolate that with experiences and form that as a belief. well, even if it were so if the person finds happiness and strives for things in life because it is their beliefs that keep them going well why spend a lifetime trying to discredit those possibilities? that is my only argument against atheists. if they don't believe in a God, more power to them. they can have their beliefs but allow us to have our own. and if it is societies objective to get rid of religion, go for it. i'm with you on that one cause I personally don't believe that religion has anything to do with God.
The problem with basing a belief on experiences is that anything can be attributed to god if you want it to be. We as a society only attribute good things to god (ie Jane beat cancer -- it must have been god that did this for her). If I said that god was the reason that children get leukemia, I would get ridiculed for proposing such a preposterous sentiment. Everyone knows that it is Adam's fault that those kids have leukemia. It's pretty ridiculous when you look at it.
1/12/1879, 4/8/1156, 2/6/1977, who gives a shit, ...
...
Still... there is all that repetance stuff, right? See... that is where I get so confused. Son Of Sam can accept Jesus... and some Christians say he is forgiven of his sins by Jesus and gets into Heaven... but, that little Jewish gal he shot in the face... she goes to Hell. It just don't seem to make sense to me.
And as for the different rooms in Heaven... that sounds like a class system in Heaven where there are 'better' or richer people and poorer people in Heaven, too. Sounds kinda shitty... being in Heaven and still having doors shut in your face.
Seems to me, a better system would be... you do shitty stuff to people down here... not matter what you believe... you get the shit end of the stick after you die. If you are a descent person down here and care about others and DO things for others, no matter what you believe, you get into the arena for the big gig. Because underneath it all... under our skins and our faiths... we are ALL Humans before we are anything else.
But, that's just me. I'm not a Theologist or an expert on scriptures or any of that... I'm just some dude down here trying to get by. I believe being nice is unconditional... I do not expect anything in return, although, good things just seem to happen for me at times, which I credit to Karma... I do things for people just because it's the right thing to do. I know I could do more, but I know I am lazy. No excuses... just who I am.
just some stuff some controlling men created to keep the masses in check...hence when you look at it logically it makes absolutely no sense...but it does work...so have to give them credit. Religion is dying....will take a while..but it is dying..has outlived its usefullness...and todays communication wonders put a nail it its coffin.
...
So, what about that whole, 'Turning the other cheek' thing? Does that mean that soldiers aren't Christians? Or is that one of those, 'Jesus spoke in parables' thing?
Just wondering aloud.
This is somehting that really confuses and irritates me, Christians the world over will support murder or death in one way or another yet that whole "Thou shall not kill" thing seems pretty absolute to me.
Meh, if we're wrong and Christianity is the way to go all those soldiers etc will be wasting their time :rolleyes:
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Replacing God with the allmighty science textbook is, well at least I see it that way, dangerous too.
I don't think science is dangerous in any way. The only problem is that people will use science as a way to push their own agenda, by leaving data out, by knowingly ignoring that correlation does not imply causation... I think education should play an important role here and might be the best way to deal with pseudoscience, or misleading statistics. A statistician came to my school to talk about this abuse or misuse of science, he could "prove" anything he wanted with statistics, the only condition was if no one asked any questions. And that's where education comes in. People should be critical and should ask questions. Or at least they should be more cautious when dealing with statistics or science.
I guess one might say that religion isn't a danger but it's the people who misuse and abuse it who are...
I disagree, well I agree that these people can indeed be dangerous, but it's more than that. Religion creates a discrepancy between people, they divide people into believers and non-believers, which eventually and inevitable leads to conflict.
Just like western societies are more and more alienating themselves from nature we are starting to alienate ourselves from spirituality and I think nature and spirituality are necessary for the human mind.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "necessary for the human mind". Nature is important, we are a part of nature, we get our food from nature whether you're a vegetarian or meat eater, we need nature...
Spirituality doesn't have to be about god or religion. Some people here describe it as a oneness with nature, the universe, even seeing PJ perform... these things are all defined as spirituality and I don't see how this has anything to do with religion or the disappearance of religion.
Religion is far from being something new, and I doubt that loosing something as old (maybe older) than language is such a good idea.
Why not? Because it's old? Things change, people got rid of hundreds perhaps thousands of ideas, concepts ... Religion needs to change in order to survive. The concept of god shouldn't be the same as 2000 or 4000 years ago. It can't.
But I don't think faith in god will die... religion will and I think that's a good thing.
That doesn't make sense. People arguing about that seem to forget that J. Christ wasn't a christian himself. So technically he shouldn't go to heaven either.
Wasn't he like the son of god? I think the whole point was that he came with the new message or whatever and Jews were supposed to follow Christ. But they didn't. Well some did and they became Christians. So I think Christ was technically the first Christian? Correct me if I'm wrong, christians!
Haven't been following this thread per se, but came across this article and thought I would post it for those interested.
In a nutshell:
“Religion is the most important argument there’s ever been, because it’s about the meaning of life,” says Hitchens, rather serenely, in a recent phone interview from a tour stop in New York. “It’s much more necessary to understand this argument than anything else. It touches on all the other great matters of science and medicine and, indeed, literature, ethics and morality. Therefore, it’s the progenitor of very strong passions.”
"Hitchens says we continue to be plagued by “religious bullying, whether it’s the attempt to murder cartoonists in tiny, democratic Denmark, or the way that the parties of God are destroying Iraqi society, or the attempt to teach nonsense in our schools under the guise of ‘intelligent design,’ or the belief in many churches that AIDS is bad but condoms are worse, or to retard research into stem cells in the name of God. Enough already with this.” "
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
People should be critical and should ask questions. Or at least they should be more cautious when dealing with statistics or science.
I wasn't thinking of scientific manipulation as it's a danger that is as old as science. I'm thinking of hardline scientist who tend to forget science is a tool meant to explain what we percieve and not necessarily "the truth". My truth is what I want it to be, and I would very much dislike it if someone else came with numbers telling me I am wrong. It's also wrong for moral reasons as science is not a vector for morals. Religions are, you don't have to like them but they are there for people to benchmark.
Religion creates a discrepancy between people, they divide people into believers and non-believers, which eventually and inevitable leads to conflict.
This is a problem. Like I said, sometimes I wish for religion to have never existed when I see how some people use it. I have no solutions for this problem however.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "necessary for the human mind".
I think humans are more than just talking animals, and I think our mind needs etheral thoughts, such as spirituality and can't dwell only on scientific facts.
Spirituality doesn't have to be about god or religion. Some people here describe it as a oneness with nature, the universe, even seeing PJ perform... these things are all defined as spirituality and I don't see how this has anything to do with religion or the disappearance of religion.
I agree on the first part, but if you loose religion (and I mean all religions, not just the 3 monotheist religions who tend to get on everyone's nerves) you loose a huge part of human spirituality. Religion isn't only used to wage wars, it's also a basis for philosophy and ways of life. I can't imagine what the world would be today had religions never existed.
But I don't think faith in god will die... religion will and I think that's a good thing.
How can you have a faith in god and no religion? At one time, some people will create a religion. The only way to get rid of religion is to get rid of God.
Wasn't he like the son of god? I think the whole point was that he came with the new message or whatever and Jews were supposed to follow Christ. But they didn't. Well some did and they became Christians. So I think Christ was technically the first Christian? Correct me if I'm wrong, christians!
Yes he was the son, and he had a new message, but the christian church was built after his death.
I wasn't thinking of scientific manipulation as it's a danger that is as old as science. I'm thinking of hardline scientist who tend to forget science is a tool meant to explain what we percieve and not necessarily "the truth". My truth is what I want it to be, and I would very much dislike it if someone else came with numbers telling me I am wrong.
If your believes don't affect anyone else, there's no problem. But if you use your beliefs as a basis or a reason to discriminate and scientifically wrong ... I have no problem with a scientist pointing that out.
I agree on the first part, but if you loose religion (and I mean all religions, not just the 3 monotheist religions who tend to get on everyone's nerves) you loose a huge part of human spirituality. Religion isn't only used to wage wars, it's also a basis for philosophy and ways of life. I can't imagine what the world would be today had religions never existed.
Fair enough. I disagree, though. Nature can be the source of spirituality, for example.
How can you have a faith in god and no religion? At one time, some people will create a religion. The only way to get rid of religion is to get rid of God.
Perhaps. But if religion starts to disappear but some people keep their personal faith, it might be harder for them to create a religion that's as powerful as the three major religions. Afterall it's those that affect our lives the most.
But they did live the life of the athiest though right? There are shitty religious people and shitty non-religious people. Nothing will change that. Some people need religion to explain the unexplainable or to provide comfort through tough times. Me, I just roll with life. I know that the divinity in Bible is a complete fabrication. I'm pretty sure that there isn't a god and if there is, I'm sure that he wouldn't give two shits if I didn't believe in him while I was alive. If he would be so petty as to torture my soul for thinking a certain way while I was alive, I say fuck him.
every word could be mine (apart from the grammatical point in italic )
if you feel you need a religion/belief system to help you through life, that's your prerogative..
Just don't bother other people who don't need, or have other beliefs, with it, least of all by telling them how to live their own lives (sexuality, contraception, abortion, wearing certain clothes etc).
Just don't bother other people who don't need, or have other beliefs, with it, least of all by telling them how to live their own lives (sexuality, contraception, abortion, wearing certain clothes etc).
Got news for you, living ina democracy is all about telling others how to live. Hell, you've just told a bunch of people how they should live with your post. Issues should be debated on the merits of the proposition and not where the ideaology for the idea comes form or who backs an idea.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
The problem with basing a belief on experiences is that anything can be attributed to god if you want it to be. We as a society only attribute good things to god (ie Jane beat cancer -- it must have been god that did this for her). If I said that god was the reason that children get leukemia, I would get ridiculed for proposing such a preposterous sentiment. Everyone knows that it is Adam's fault that those kids have leukemia. It's pretty ridiculous when you look at it.
see, it's pointless trying to get into a "you said," "i said" debate. why can't we just take things for the way they are and allow the person to experience their own spiritual journey at a personal level? it's pointless trying to rationalize it and especially trying to rationalize it into someone's mind who does or doesn't believe. you can come up with debates about how adam and this don't make sense but who ever claimed that we could make sense of the bible and prove it as truth? that's why it's a persistent claim that we attribute it to our faith. i could go on and on and tell you that my experiences are not solely based on surviving cancer and miraculous happenings. my experiences are on a deeper and personal level, a statement that most christians claim that if you do not open your mind to these things you can never believe. but once you open your mind you will know what we're talking about. other than that, it's not our business. that is why i don't agree with those other guys, kirk and him, that they make it their business. but i also don't agree with atheists that most times they propose logic to discredit the idea or existence of a God. i know certain atheists claim that there probably is a God/creator of some sort but it's not important to know. all of that is not my business. when it becomes my business is when someone tries to give me logic and certain proofs to tell me, "see? your God doesn't exist."
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
This is somehting that really confuses and irritates me, Christians the world over will support murder or death in one way or another yet that whole "Thou shall not kill" thing seems pretty absolute to me.
Meh, if we're wrong and Christianity is the way to go all those soldiers etc will be wasting their time :rolleyes:
i don't believe in war.
edit: but i agree, there are a bunch of retarded christians out there that support those things. i don't know where the hell they come up with that.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
a statement that most christians claim that if you do not open your mind to these things you can never believe. but once you open your mind you will know what we're talking about.
see, it's pointless trying to get into a "you said," "i said" debate. why can't we just take things for the way they are and allow the person to experience their own spiritual journey at a personal level? it's pointless trying to rationalize it and especially trying to rationalize it into someone's mind who does or doesn't believe. you can come up with debates about how adam and this don't make sense but who ever claimed that we could make sense of the bible and prove it as truth? that's why it's a persistent claim that we attribute it to our faith. i could go on and on and tell you that my experiences are not solely based on surviving cancer and miraculous happenings. my experiences are on a deeper and personal level, a statement that most christians claim that if you do not open your mind to these things you can never believe. but once you open your mind you will know what we're talking about. other than that, it's not our business. that is why i don't agree with those other guys, kirk and him, that they make it their business. but i also don't agree with atheists that most times they propose logic to discredit the idea or existence of a God. i know certain atheists claim that there probably is a God/creator of some sort but it's not important to know. all of that is not my business. when it becomes my business is when someone tries to give me logic and certain proofs to tell me, "see? your God doesn't exist."
I think that you and I have similar attitudes. I really don't care what other people think or believe, I am merely stating what I believe and why I think that the religions that men create are very flawed (including Christianity). The problem is that if you are a Christian (and I assume you are), you are mandated to "spread the word" because you are told that anyone who dies without Jesus goes to hell. It is also mandated for you to care enough about non-believers to convert them. Now, maybe you don't care about the fact that I am going to hell and if you don't, then I commend you, but that "spreading the word" mandate is really the key to debunking the Christian religion to me. If the religion is right, people wouldn't have to be frightened into believing it.
1/12/1879, 4/8/1156, 2/6/1977, who gives a shit, ...
I cannot expect you to understand, you believe in god but once you open your mind, you'll know what I'm talking about.
You see what I mean?
well, i've opened my mind to atheists. as best as i can, at least. that's why i'm constantly on here.
the difference about being an atheist, from what i can see, is that it's all based on logic, common sense and science and not necessarily about faith, or maybe even no faith at all. those are things that i am not against. so i can sympathize for an atheist about them considering me ludicrous for believing in such fairy tales because it all makes "sense", even to me. i am in a sense a minority. i am a minority in the sense that you've got everything to back up why you believe while i have nothing to back up my beliefs and my only response to you is faith. it's logical for someone to laugh at those concepts. even i would. so it all boils down easily for all of us being on the same page. there are things that you might say that i consider offensive even though you're intentions are not to offend me. that is why i say let's just take things as they are.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
I think that you and I have similar attitudes. I really don't care what other people think or believe, I am merely stating what I believe and why I think that the religions that men create are very flawed (including Christianity). The problem is that if you are a Christian (and I assume you are), you are mandated to "spread the word" because you are told that anyone who dies without Jesus goes to hell. It is also mandated for you to care enough about non-believers to convert them. Now, maybe you don't care about the fact that I am going to hell and if you don't, then I commend you, but that "spreading the word" mandate is really the key to debunking the Christian religion to me. If the religion is right, people wouldn't have to be frightened into believing it.
i respect that you are "merely stating" your beliefs. but it's a kinda awkward situation... cause everyone has a right to state their beliefs. even if it means, "spreading the word". i mean, if someone gives you a trait while you're walking down the street why is it so hard just to take it as it is? i've had people of different kinds, jehovah witnesses, atheists, hindu's, mormons and beyond of all kinds spreading their beliefs to me in many ways. even drug dealers. this is america. we have a right to it. the problem is when we force it onto others. true. christians have their own ways of believing that you might not be in accordance with but by all means how many religions are there that we don't agree with? why spend a lifetime trying to "debunk" it?
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
Deadnothingbetter is right. It's faith. It's a deeply embedded percept in the brain of the individual with a real priority to it. To the point that all rationalization is not required. It's really a control mechanism to get people thinking they just have to follow the word of the church and not think for themselves. People born into these teachings never develop the ability to think for themselves. Rather, they develop a strong relationship with faith. In-fact they typically stay away from issues that would spark rational debate.
There is quite the push now-a-days to rid the world of religion. I'm game, I just don't think it can be done anymore. The best we can do is keep the confusion rolling so that future generations have to at some point question their faith. I see only a small window of opportunity in a person's life to really make them think and it usually follows particular life experiences at particular ages. And like Constantine among others made damn sure that pagans, polytheists and atheists were gone almost completely. It's like we've had 2,000 years of devolving our brains.
I personally do not consider Christianity to be any worse than any other religion including newage. I find all those ideas not progressive. Like Emoto's water, it's just gonna set us on the wrong path trying to learn about nature. There is always a rather mundane explanation. It's beautiful how it all interacts none-the-less and atheists do typically take splendor in awing at nature in it's magnificence. But I mean, bees taking off from the hives, 2,000 years ago that would have been a curse. It would mean they displeased the Gods and it would probably be a well documented event in ancient mythological history. I mean, there are more progressive ways to look at life now. We have the tools now to see what's really going on if we are patient for the answers.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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yeah, not very respectful to a person in general. people can say whatever they want about God, make jokes etc., but when their life is required of them, it'll be very interesting to say the least.
But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgement(Matthew 12:36).
i think it's people like them who make unbelievers have hostile attitudes against people like me. not that i'm any better or any holier but i believe that there is a better way of sharing the message. it starts by not enforcing it on others and not shoving it at their faces like kirk cameron and the other guy did. i've seen those dudes before and the first time i saw it, "i thought wow these guys don't have a clue of what they're saying."
My response, who created the universe? did it create itself? If they say, who created God, then who created the universe? They answered their own question.
But if the universe/existence is indeed infinite in some way (even if it changes form), then it negates the need for a creator. What they (the rational response squad) were suggesting is that god is an extra cog that is not needed to explain our origins. That does not disprove god- I doubt it will be ever possible to disprove a concept that exists only in the mind.
What it does suggest though is that god cannot be proven scientifically. If you want to believe in god, by all means do it. But justify it with faith, personal reflection etc., not through evidence or some logic of the universe argument.
The hostility is not aimed at your personal faith. It is aimed at the need for a faith in general. I'm pretty sure that there is no god and the need for one is fast becoming obsolete in our lives. Although we will never see it in our lifetimes, the whole church/god thing will disappear from society eventually (assuming that we last long enough) and it will be replaced by something else. You can debate whether replacing a faith in god with the realization that we are a freak of nature is good or bad, but the fact is that religions change and the next natural progression for us as a society is to get the fuck rid of it. Religious influence is way too powerful and it is overly abused to be productive for any society.
i agree, however, that my belief in God is justified by my faith. that is why i don't support those other dudes by them saying that you can prove the existence of God without faith. i'm not at all surprised that they were roasted in their own environment - a CHURCH!
Still... there is all that repetance stuff, right? See... that is where I get so confused. Son Of Sam can accept Jesus... and some Christians say he is forgiven of his sins by Jesus and gets into Heaven... but, that little Jewish gal he shot in the face... she goes to Hell. It just don't seem to make sense to me.
And as for the different rooms in Heaven... that sounds like a class system in Heaven where there are 'better' or richer people and poorer people in Heaven, too. Sounds kinda shitty... being in Heaven and still having doors shut in your face.
Seems to me, a better system would be... you do shitty stuff to people down here... not matter what you believe... you get the shit end of the stick after you die. If you are a descent person down here and care about others and DO things for others, no matter what you believe, you get into the arena for the big gig. Because underneath it all... under our skins and our faiths... we are ALL Humans before we are anything else.
But, that's just me. I'm not a Theologist or an expert on scriptures or any of that... I'm just some dude down here trying to get by. I believe being nice is unconditional... I do not expect anything in return, although, good things just seem to happen for me at times, which I credit to Karma... I do things for people just because it's the right thing to do. I know I could do more, but I know I am lazy. No excuses... just who I am.
Hail, Hail!!!
In western society maybe, but all middle easter and asian societies are far from forgetting god and religion. Personnaly I fear we abandon the idea of a God, of believing without seeing. Replacing God with the allmighty science textbook is, well at least I see it that way, dangerous too. Just like western societies are more and more alienating themselves from nature we are starting to alienate ourselves from spirituality and I think nature and spirituality are necessary for the human mind. Religion is far from being something new, and I doubt that loosing something as old (maybe older) than language is such a good idea.
Now I can easily agree that some religious people are arrogant stupid fucks who make you wish the concept of a God never existed.
That doesn't make sense. People arguing about that seem to forget that J. Christ wasn't a christian himself. So technically he shouldn't go to heaven either.
The problem with basing a belief on experiences is that anything can be attributed to god if you want it to be. We as a society only attribute good things to god (ie Jane beat cancer -- it must have been god that did this for her). If I said that god was the reason that children get leukemia, I would get ridiculed for proposing such a preposterous sentiment. Everyone knows that it is Adam's fault that those kids have leukemia. It's pretty ridiculous when you look at it.
just some stuff some controlling men created to keep the masses in check...hence when you look at it logically it makes absolutely no sense...but it does work...so have to give them credit. Religion is dying....will take a while..but it is dying..has outlived its usefullness...and todays communication wonders put a nail it its coffin.
Meh, if we're wrong and Christianity is the way to go all those soldiers etc will be wasting their time :rolleyes:
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I don't think science is dangerous in any way. The only problem is that people will use science as a way to push their own agenda, by leaving data out, by knowingly ignoring that correlation does not imply causation... I think education should play an important role here and might be the best way to deal with pseudoscience, or misleading statistics. A statistician came to my school to talk about this abuse or misuse of science, he could "prove" anything he wanted with statistics, the only condition was if no one asked any questions. And that's where education comes in. People should be critical and should ask questions. Or at least they should be more cautious when dealing with statistics or science.
I guess one might say that religion isn't a danger but it's the people who misuse and abuse it who are...
I disagree, well I agree that these people can indeed be dangerous, but it's more than that. Religion creates a discrepancy between people, they divide people into believers and non-believers, which eventually and inevitable leads to conflict.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "necessary for the human mind". Nature is important, we are a part of nature, we get our food from nature whether you're a vegetarian or meat eater, we need nature...
Spirituality doesn't have to be about god or religion. Some people here describe it as a oneness with nature, the universe, even seeing PJ perform... these things are all defined as spirituality and I don't see how this has anything to do with religion or the disappearance of religion.
Why not? Because it's old? Things change, people got rid of hundreds perhaps thousands of ideas, concepts ... Religion needs to change in order to survive. The concept of god shouldn't be the same as 2000 or 4000 years ago. It can't.
But I don't think faith in god will die... religion will and I think that's a good thing.
Wasn't he like the son of god? I think the whole point was that he came with the new message or whatever and Jews were supposed to follow Christ. But they didn't. Well some did and they became Christians. So I think Christ was technically the first Christian? Correct me if I'm wrong, christians!
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In a nutshell:
“Religion is the most important argument there’s ever been, because it’s about the meaning of life,” says Hitchens, rather serenely, in a recent phone interview from a tour stop in New York. “It’s much more necessary to understand this argument than anything else. It touches on all the other great matters of science and medicine and, indeed, literature, ethics and morality. Therefore, it’s the progenitor of very strong passions.”
"Hitchens says we continue to be plagued by “religious bullying, whether it’s the attempt to murder cartoonists in tiny, democratic Denmark, or the way that the parties of God are destroying Iraqi society, or the attempt to teach nonsense in our schools under the guise of ‘intelligent design,’ or the belief in many churches that AIDS is bad but condoms are worse, or to retard research into stem cells in the name of God. Enough already with this.” "
http://www.cbc.ca/arts/books/nothing_sacred.html
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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This is a problem. Like I said, sometimes I wish for religion to have never existed when I see how some people use it. I have no solutions for this problem however.
I think humans are more than just talking animals, and I think our mind needs etheral thoughts, such as spirituality and can't dwell only on scientific facts.
I agree on the first part, but if you loose religion (and I mean all religions, not just the 3 monotheist religions who tend to get on everyone's nerves) you loose a huge part of human spirituality. Religion isn't only used to wage wars, it's also a basis for philosophy and ways of life. I can't imagine what the world would be today had religions never existed.
How can you have a faith in god and no religion? At one time, some people will create a religion. The only way to get rid of religion is to get rid of God.
Yes he was the son, and he had a new message, but the christian church was built after his death.
If your believes don't affect anyone else, there's no problem. But if you use your beliefs as a basis or a reason to discriminate and scientifically wrong ... I have no problem with a scientist pointing that out.
Fair enough. I disagree, though. Nature can be the source of spirituality, for example.
Perhaps. But if religion starts to disappear but some people keep their personal faith, it might be harder for them to create a religion that's as powerful as the three major religions. Afterall it's those that affect our lives the most.
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if you feel you need a religion/belief system to help you through life, that's your prerogative..
Just don't bother other people who don't need, or have other beliefs, with it, least of all by telling them how to live their own lives (sexuality, contraception, abortion, wearing certain clothes etc).
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
edit: but i agree, there are a bunch of retarded christians out there that support those things. i don't know where the hell they come up with that.
How very condescending.
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I cannot expect you to understand, you believe in god but once you open your mind, you'll know what I'm talking about.
You see what I mean?
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I think that you and I have similar attitudes. I really don't care what other people think or believe, I am merely stating what I believe and why I think that the religions that men create are very flawed (including Christianity). The problem is that if you are a Christian (and I assume you are), you are mandated to "spread the word" because you are told that anyone who dies without Jesus goes to hell. It is also mandated for you to care enough about non-believers to convert them. Now, maybe you don't care about the fact that I am going to hell and if you don't, then I commend you, but that "spreading the word" mandate is really the key to debunking the Christian religion to me. If the religion is right, people wouldn't have to be frightened into believing it.
the difference about being an atheist, from what i can see, is that it's all based on logic, common sense and science and not necessarily about faith, or maybe even no faith at all. those are things that i am not against. so i can sympathize for an atheist about them considering me ludicrous for believing in such fairy tales because it all makes "sense", even to me. i am in a sense a minority. i am a minority in the sense that you've got everything to back up why you believe while i have nothing to back up my beliefs and my only response to you is faith. it's logical for someone to laugh at those concepts. even i would. so it all boils down easily for all of us being on the same page. there are things that you might say that i consider offensive even though you're intentions are not to offend me. that is why i say let's just take things as they are.
There is quite the push now-a-days to rid the world of religion. I'm game, I just don't think it can be done anymore. The best we can do is keep the confusion rolling so that future generations have to at some point question their faith. I see only a small window of opportunity in a person's life to really make them think and it usually follows particular life experiences at particular ages. And like Constantine among others made damn sure that pagans, polytheists and atheists were gone almost completely. It's like we've had 2,000 years of devolving our brains.
I personally do not consider Christianity to be any worse than any other religion including newage. I find all those ideas not progressive. Like Emoto's water, it's just gonna set us on the wrong path trying to learn about nature. There is always a rather mundane explanation. It's beautiful how it all interacts none-the-less and atheists do typically take splendor in awing at nature in it's magnificence. But I mean, bees taking off from the hives, 2,000 years ago that would have been a curse. It would mean they displeased the Gods and it would probably be a well documented event in ancient mythological history. I mean, there are more progressive ways to look at life now. We have the tools now to see what's really going on if we are patient for the answers.