A Growing Pain for Atheists?

gue_barium

It is Spring Cleaning Day, for me. Time to go shake a few rugs. Praise Allah, and Ali Baba, and the magic carpet ride.

BinFrog

This can't end well.

Modded in 3...2...1...

deadnothingbetter

Songburst wrote:

Haha. Wow.

wow, never have i ever met people with such hostile attitudes when it concerns my faith.

PJammin'

deadnothingbetter wrote:

wow, never have i ever met people with such hostile attitudes when it concerns my faith.

yeah, not very respectful to a person in general. people can say whatever they want about God, make jokes etc., but when their life is required of them, it'll be very interesting to say the least.

But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgement(Matthew 12:36).

deadnothingbetter

PJammin' wrote:

yeah, not very respectful to a person in general. people can say whatever they want about God, make jokes etc., but when their life is required of them, it'll be very interesting to say the least.

But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgement(Matthew 12:36).

well, i personally don't agree with the way kirk and the other dudes are advocating their message. they're morons if you ask me. and half the time they really don't know what they're talking about. also, i don't agree you can prove God. that's ridiculous. those guys need to seriously get a life. of course people are going to get offended by the way they present the message.

i think it's people like them who make unbelievers have hostile attitudes against people like me. not that i'm any better or any holier but i believe that there is a better way of sharing the message. it starts by not enforcing it on others and not shoving it at their faces like kirk cameron and the other guy did. i've seen those dudes before and the first time i saw it, "i thought wow these guys don't have a clue of what they're saying."

deadnothingbetter

They asked "Who created God?" and "if God can be infinite why can't the universe be infinite?"

My response, who created the universe? did it create itself? If they say, who created God, then who created the universe? They answered their own question.

ClimberInOz

deadnothingbetter wrote:

They asked "Who created God?" and "if God can be infinite why can't the universe be infinite?"

My response, who created the universe? did it create itself? If they say, who created God, then who created the universe? They answered their own question.

But if the universe/existence is indeed infinite in some way (even if it changes form), then it negates the need for a creator. What they (the rational response squad) were suggesting is that god is an extra cog that is not needed to explain our origins. That does not disprove god- I doubt it will be ever possible to disprove a concept that exists only in the mind.

What it does suggest though is that god cannot be proven scientifically. If you want to believe in god, by all means do it. But justify it with faith, personal reflection etc., not through evidence or some logic of the universe argument.

Songburst

deadnothingbetter wrote:

wow, never have i ever met people with such hostile attitudes when it concerns my faith.

The hostility is not aimed at your personal faith. It is aimed at the need for a faith in general. I'm pretty sure that there is no god and the need for one is fast becoming obsolete in our lives. Although we will never see it in our lifetimes, the whole church/god thing will disappear from society eventually (assuming that we last long enough) and it will be replaced by something else. You can debate whether replacing a faith in god with the realization that we are a freak of nature is good or bad, but the fact is that religions change and the next natural progression for us as a society is to get the fuck rid of it. Religious influence is way too powerful and it is overly abused to be productive for any society.

deadnothingbetter

ClimberInOz wrote:

But if the universe/existence is indeed infinite in some way (even if it changes form), then it negates the need for a creator. What they (the rational response squad) were suggesting is that god is an extra cog that is not needed to explain our origins. That does not disprove god- I doubt it will be ever possible to disprove a concept that exists only in the mind.

What it does suggest though is that god cannot be proven scientifically. If you want to believe in god, by all means do it. But justify it with faith, personal reflection etc., not through evidence or some logic of the universe argument.

maybe it's because the universe is coexistent with God. in some nature, the universe is God.

i agree, however, that my belief in God is justified by my faith. that is why i don't support those other dudes by them saying that you can prove the existence of God without faith. i'm not at all surprised that they were roasted in their own environment - a CHURCH!

deadnothingbetter

Songburst wrote:

The hostility is not aimed at your personal faith. It is aimed at the need for a faith in general. I'm pretty sure that there is no god and the need for one is fast becoming obsolete in our lives. Although we will never see it in our lifetimes, the whole church/god thing will disappear from society eventually (assuming that we last long enough) and it will be replaced by something else. You can debate whether replacing a faith in god with the realization that we are a freak of nature is good or bad, but the fact is that religions change and the next natural progression for us as a society is to get the fuck rid of it. Religious influence is way too powerful and it is overly abused to be productive for any society.

well, i don't believe in debates... particularly when it concerns my faith. i could see the way you see it and tell myself there is no God and i find no reason to believe in one because I as a human just like you can rationalize this in my mind. there was only one thing that Kirk Cameron said that was true that my faith and belief in God is due to personal experiences that I've had. you can debate like the other guy and say that you can grow up believing that a gnome is always standing behind your shoulder and corrolate that with experiences and form that as a belief. well, even if it were so if the person finds happiness and strives for things in life because it is their beliefs that keep them going well why spend a lifetime trying to discredit those possibilities? that is my only argument against atheists. if they don't believe in a God, more power to them. they can have their beliefs but allow us to have our own. and if it is societies objective to get rid of religion, go for it. i'm with you on that one cause I personally don't believe that religion has anything to do with God.

Cosmo

PJammin' wrote:

the chances of someone like berkowitz inheriting the kingdom of God is like jenna jamison becoming a nun.

...
Still... there is all that repetance stuff, right? See... that is where I get so confused. Son Of Sam can accept Jesus... and some Christians say he is forgiven of his sins by Jesus and gets into Heaven... but, that little Jewish gal he shot in the face... she goes to Hell. It just don't seem to make sense to me.
And as for the different rooms in Heaven... that sounds like a class system in Heaven where there are 'better' or richer people and poorer people in Heaven, too. Sounds kinda shitty... being in Heaven and still having doors shut in your face.
Seems to me, a better system would be... you do shitty stuff to people down here... not matter what you believe... you get the shit end of the stick after you die. If you are a descent person down here and care about others and DO things for others, no matter what you believe, you get into the arena for the big gig. Because underneath it all... under our skins and our faiths... we are ALL Humans before we are anything else.
But, that's just me. I'm not a Theologist or an expert on scriptures or any of that... I'm just some dude down here trying to get by. I believe being nice is unconditional... I do not expect anything in return, although, good things just seem to happen for me at times, which I credit to Karma... I do things for people just because it's the right thing to do. I know I could do more, but I know I am lazy. No excuses... just who I am.

Kann

Songburst wrote:

I'm pretty sure that there is no god and the need for one is fast becoming obsolete in our lives. Although we will never see it in our lifetimes, the whole church/god thing will disappear from society eventually (assuming that we last long enough) and it will be replaced by something else.

In western society maybe, but all middle easter and asian societies are far from forgetting god and religion. Personnaly I fear we abandon the idea of a God, of believing without seeing. Replacing God with the allmighty science textbook is, well at least I see it that way, dangerous too. Just like western societies are more and more alienating themselves from nature we are starting to alienate ourselves from spirituality and I think nature and spirituality are necessary for the human mind. Religion is far from being something new, and I doubt that loosing something as old (maybe older) than language is such a good idea.
Now I can easily agree that some religious people are arrogant stupid fucks who make you wish the concept of a God never existed.

but, that little Jewish gal he shot in the face... she goes to Hell. It just don't seem to make sense to me.

That doesn't make sense. People arguing about that seem to forget that J. Christ wasn't a christian himself. So technically he shouldn't go to heaven either.

Songburst

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well, i don't believe in debates... particularly when it concerns my faith. i could see the way you see it and tell myself there is no God and i find no reason to believe in one because I as a human just like you can rationalize this in my mind. there was only one thing that Kirk Cameron said that was true that my faith and belief in God is due to personal experiences that I've had. you can debate like the other guy and say that you can grow up believing that a gnome is always standing behind your shoulder and corrolate that with experiences and form that as a belief. well, even if it were so if the person finds happiness and strives for things in life because it is their beliefs that keep them going well why spend a lifetime trying to discredit those possibilities? that is my only argument against atheists. if they don't believe in a God, more power to them. they can have their beliefs but allow us to have our own. and if it is societies objective to get rid of religion, go for it. i'm with you on that one cause I personally don't believe that religion has anything to do with God.

The problem with basing a belief on experiences is that anything can be attributed to god if you want it to be. We as a society only attribute good things to god (ie Jane beat cancer -- it must have been god that did this for her). If I said that god was the reason that children get leukemia, I would get ridiculed for proposing such a preposterous sentiment. Everyone knows that it is Adam's fault that those kids have leukemia. It's pretty ridiculous when you look at it.

callen

Cosmo wrote:

...
Still... there is all that repetance stuff, right? See... that is where I get so confused. Son Of Sam can accept Jesus... and some Christians say he is forgiven of his sins by Jesus and gets into Heaven... but, that little Jewish gal he shot in the face... she goes to Hell. It just don't seem to make sense to me.
And as for the different rooms in Heaven... that sounds like a class system in Heaven where there are 'better' or richer people and poorer people in Heaven, too. Sounds kinda shitty... being in Heaven and still having doors shut in your face.
Seems to me, a better system would be... you do shitty stuff to people down here... not matter what you believe... you get the shit end of the stick after you die. If you are a descent person down here and care about others and DO things for others, no matter what you believe, you get into the arena for the big gig. Because underneath it all... under our skins and our faiths... we are ALL Humans before we are anything else.
But, that's just me. I'm not a Theologist or an expert on scriptures or any of that... I'm just some dude down here trying to get by. I believe being nice is unconditional... I do not expect anything in return, although, good things just seem to happen for me at times, which I credit to Karma... I do things for people just because it's the right thing to do. I know I could do more, but I know I am lazy. No excuses... just who I am.

just some stuff some controlling men created to keep the masses in check...hence when you look at it logically it makes absolutely no sense...but it does work...so have to give them credit. Religion is dying....will take a while..but it is dying..has outlived its usefullness...and todays communication wonders put a nail it its coffin.

Binaural

Cosmo wrote:

...
So, what about that whole, 'Turning the other cheek' thing? Does that mean that soldiers aren't Christians? Or is that one of those, 'Jesus spoke in parables' thing?
Just wondering aloud.

This is somehting that really confuses and irritates me, Christians the world over will support murder or death in one way or another yet that whole "Thou shall not kill" thing seems pretty absolute to me.
Meh, if we're wrong and Christianity is the way to go all those soldiers etc will be wasting their time :rolleyes:

Collin

Kann wrote:

Replacing God with the allmighty science textbook is, well at least I see it that way, dangerous too.

I don't think science is dangerous in any way. The only problem is that people will use science as a way to push their own agenda, by leaving data out, by knowingly ignoring that correlation does not imply causation... I think education should play an important role here and might be the best way to deal with pseudoscience, or misleading statistics. A statistician came to my school to talk about this abuse or misuse of science, he could "prove" anything he wanted with statistics, the only condition was if no one asked any questions. And that's where education comes in. People should be critical and should ask questions. Or at least they should be more cautious when dealing with statistics or science.

I guess one might say that religion isn't a danger but it's the people who misuse and abuse it who are...
I disagree, well I agree that these people can indeed be dangerous, but it's more than that. Religion creates a discrepancy between people, they divide people into believers and non-believers, which eventually and inevitable leads to conflict.

Just like western societies are more and more alienating themselves from nature we are starting to alienate ourselves from spirituality and I think nature and spirituality are necessary for the human mind.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "necessary for the human mind". Nature is important, we are a part of nature, we get our food from nature whether you're a vegetarian or meat eater, we need nature...

Spirituality doesn't have to be about god or religion. Some people here describe it as a oneness with nature, the universe, even seeing PJ perform... these things are all defined as spirituality and I don't see how this has anything to do with religion or the disappearance of religion.

Religion is far from being something new, and I doubt that loosing something as old (maybe older) than language is such a good idea.

Why not? Because it's old? Things change, people got rid of hundreds perhaps thousands of ideas, concepts ... Religion needs to change in order to survive. The concept of god shouldn't be the same as 2000 or 4000 years ago. It can't.
But I don't think faith in god will die... religion will and I think that's a good thing.

That doesn't make sense. People arguing about that seem to forget that J. Christ wasn't a christian himself. So technically he shouldn't go to heaven either.

Wasn't he like the son of god? I think the whole point was that he came with the new message or whatever and Jews were supposed to follow Christ. But they didn't. Well some did and they became Christians. So I think Christ was technically the first Christian? Correct me if I'm wrong, christians!

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Haven't been following this thread per se, but came across this article and thought I would post it for those interested.

In a nutshell:

“Religion is the most important argument there’s ever been, because it’s about the meaning of life,” says Hitchens, rather serenely, in a recent phone interview from a tour stop in New York. “It’s much more necessary to understand this argument than anything else. It touches on all the other great matters of science and medicine and, indeed, literature, ethics and morality. Therefore, it’s the progenitor of very strong passions.”

"Hitchens says we continue to be plagued by “religious bullying, whether it’s the attempt to murder cartoonists in tiny, democratic Denmark, or the way that the parties of God are destroying Iraqi society, or the attempt to teach nonsense in our schools under the guise of ‘intelligent design,’ or the belief in many churches that AIDS is bad but condoms are worse, or to retard research into stem cells in the name of God. Enough already with this.” "

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/books/nothing_sacred.html

Kann

Collin wrote:

People should be critical and should ask questions. Or at least they should be more cautious when dealing with statistics or science.

I wasn't thinking of scientific manipulation as it's a danger that is as old as science. I'm thinking of hardline scientist who tend to forget science is a tool meant to explain what we percieve and not necessarily "the truth". My truth is what I want it to be, and I would very much dislike it if someone else came with numbers telling me I am wrong. It's also wrong for moral reasons as science is not a vector for morals. Religions are, you don't have to like them but they are there for people to benchmark.

Religion creates a discrepancy between people, they divide people into believers and non-believers, which eventually and inevitable leads to conflict.

This is a problem. Like I said, sometimes I wish for religion to have never existed when I see how some people use it. I have no solutions for this problem however.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "necessary for the human mind".

I think humans are more than just talking animals, and I think our mind needs etheral thoughts, such as spirituality and can't dwell only on scientific facts.

Spirituality doesn't have to be about god or religion. Some people here describe it as a oneness with nature, the universe, even seeing PJ perform... these things are all defined as spirituality and I don't see how this has anything to do with religion or the disappearance of religion.

I agree on the first part, but if you loose religion (and I mean all religions, not just the 3 monotheist religions who tend to get on everyone's nerves) you loose a huge part of human spirituality. Religion isn't only used to wage wars, it's also a basis for philosophy and ways of life. I can't imagine what the world would be today had religions never existed.

But I don't think faith in god will die... religion will and I think that's a good thing.

How can you have a faith in god and no religion? At one time, some people will create a religion. The only way to get rid of religion is to get rid of God.

Wasn't he like the son of god? I think the whole point was that he came with the new message or whatever and Jews were supposed to follow Christ. But they didn't. Well some did and they became Christians. So I think Christ was technically the first Christian? Correct me if I'm wrong, christians!

Yes he was the son, and he had a new message, but the christian church was built after his death.

Collin

Kann wrote:

I wasn't thinking of scientific manipulation as it's a danger that is as old as science. I'm thinking of hardline scientist who tend to forget science is a tool meant to explain what we percieve and not necessarily "the truth". My truth is what I want it to be, and I would very much dislike it if someone else came with numbers telling me I am wrong.

If your believes don't affect anyone else, there's no problem. But if you use your beliefs as a basis or a reason to discriminate and scientifically wrong ... I have no problem with a scientist pointing that out.

I agree on the first part, but if you loose religion (and I mean all religions, not just the 3 monotheist religions who tend to get on everyone's nerves) you loose a huge part of human spirituality. Religion isn't only used to wage wars, it's also a basis for philosophy and ways of life. I can't imagine what the world would be today had religions never existed.

Fair enough. I disagree, though. Nature can be the source of spirituality, for example.

How can you have a faith in god and no religion? At one time, some people will create a religion. The only way to get rid of religion is to get rid of God.

Perhaps. But if religion starts to disappear but some people keep their personal faith, it might be harder for them to create a religion that's as powerful as the three major religions. Afterall it's those that affect our lives the most.

Pegasus

Ahnimus wrote:

God is a childish philosophy

Also known as superstition.

Songburst wrote:

But they did live the life of the athiest though right? There are shitty religious people and shitty non-religious people. Nothing will change that. Some people need religion to explain the unexplainable or to provide comfort through tough times. Me, I just roll with life. I know that the divinity in Bible is a complete fabrication. I'm pretty sure that there isn't a god and if there is, I'm sure that he wouldn't give two shits if I didn't believe in him while I was alive. If he would be so petty as to torture my soul for thinking a certain way while I was alive, I say fuck him.

every word could be mine (apart from the grammatical point in italic )

if you feel you need a religion/belief system to help you through life, that's your prerogative..
Just don't bother other people who don't need, or have other beliefs, with it, least of all by telling them how to live their own lives (sexuality, contraception, abortion, wearing certain clothes etc).