Morbidly Obese Mutants

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

the issue i take with your posts along these lines is they have no real world application. it's all abstract, airy, hippy-like "the universe is all connected man" kind of stuff. reminds me of my thinking when i was on lsd. but it solves nothing. it's "peace and love dude." but you can't smoke a joint and cure the world. there is nothing practical about this feel good, pseudo-buddhist pop psychology. if i never say the word lazy again, we will still have an obesity epidemic in this country. even if we all loved fat people and never said lazy again as a society, it would still be a problem. just like you can't eradicate racism by stopping people from saying nigger. the problem is not me and my judgment calls about why people are overweight, the problem is the overweight people and their lifestyle decision. just like my alcoholism was not the fault of my catholic upbringing for preaching against drug abuse, it was my decisions. i was raised by the most supportive and understanding parents one could imagine, but that did not stop me. so me being all touchy-feely about obese people's feelings is not going to reverse the epidemic. it calls for practical solutions and tough love.

What I find interesting here, soulsinging, is that you have been continually reading A LOT into my posts in this thread. And you are "hearing" a LOT that I am not saying. Here it is again:

angelica wrote:

I disagree with you in that the symptom of compulsive behaviour is what it is. It has variations from person to person, but the roots and understandings, and treatments all hinge on some very simple base causes. This, even though there are wide ranging variances and degrees. The bottom line for me is when I see somone confusing their value judgment with neutral objective understanding, the objectivity has become distorted. Therefore informed understanding has been compromised. You're fully entitled to your opinion. It is what it is. It's still independent of what is objectively known at this time. Again, a key here is that when a judgmental, emotionally charged word slips in, such as "weak-willed", "irresponsible" and "self-absorbed", then it's a sure sign neutral objectivity is being distorted. Again, you're opinion still stands as your personal point of view, representing what you know and see.

I refered specifically to the fact that the roots of compulsive behaviour are across the board with compulsive behaviour. And then, I point out that personal subjective value judgments are separate from objective scientifically assessed information on the subject. The point is, science is based on observation, and on gathering data and analyzing it. Science does not include value judgments. There is nothing "airy, hippie, we're-all-connected about this. This is pure logic. There is nothing "peace/love-dude" about this. This is separating personal emotional bias from objective information.

I am honing in on discerning some fine lines--for example the difference between a value or a moral and with neutral objective assessment. Somehow it seems you assume that this is my solution. The fact is, I'm not focussing on a solution at all.

I hear your ideas on the solutions--tough love. Given that you seem unaware or unconcerned of the base issues/dynamics and are rather concerned with the moral/value judgments, I hear it as a personal opinion. In my opinion, the solution of any problem is directly hinged on understanding the causes of the problem. I also feel we cannot correctly assess the value of behaviour unless we understand it.

You can act out your tough love all you want. I'm looking in an entirely different direction.

soulsinging

angelica wrote:

What I find interesting here, soulsinging, is that you have been continually reading A LOT into my posts in this thread. And you are "hearing" a LOT that I am not saying. Here it is again:

I refered specifically to the fact that the roots of compulsive behaviour are across the board with compulsive behaviour. And then, I point out that personal subjective value judgments are separate from objective scientifically assessed information on the subject. The point is, science is based on observation, and on gathering data and analyzing it. Science does not include value judgments. There is nothing "airy, hippie, we're-all-connected about this. This is pure logic. There is nothing "peace/love-dude" about this. This is separating personal emotional bias from objective information.

I am honing in on discerning some fine lines--for example the difference between a value or a moral and with neutral objective assessment. Somehow it seems you assume that this is my solution. The fact is, I'm not focussing on a solution at all.

I hear your ideas on the solutions--tough love. Given that you seem unaware or unconcerned of the base issues/dynamics and are rather concerned with the moral/value judgments, I hear it as a personal opinion. In my opinion, the solution of any problem is directly hinged on understanding the causes of the problem. I also feel we cannot correctly assess the value of behaviour unless we understand it.

You can act out your tough love all you want. I'm looking in an entirely different direction.

well then, id love to hear your solutions. cos we can sit her and jerk each other off in intellectual masturbation all day, but that isn't going to stop any obese people from having the supersize big mac today. what do we do about it? the best thing ive got so far is discouraging fatty foods and building exercise into people's lives more. someone earlier outlined a few points and they're a start. so we've got some biological causes as a possibility and you're claiming that it's psychological compulsion. how do we put a stop to that? biology is up to medicine. but the people who are compulsive, what do we do about them?

in my experience, compulsions like that cannot be put in remission until things get bad enough that they're willing to try anything. as long as we're saying "it's ok, it's not your fault" they'll try, then fail, then try, then fail in repetition. once you impose enough consequences on it though, people will finally realize that they HAVE to change. it has to go further than being depressed and wanting to change. they've got to realize "i cannot live like this anymore." even at that point, across the spectrum recovery from compulsive behavior is something like 10% at best. social stigma can be a big motivating factor. the other half is finding support and people who struggle with the same problems to build a community of people with shared goals and problems. alcoholics and drug addicts have this, as do gamblers and sex addicts. other areas are slower in coming. but part of it is your kind of thinking. nobody is allowed to tell an obese person "this is bad for you, maybe you should join a group to control your eating and exercise." cos they hit back with exactly what you've been telling me: "you're a bastard and that's just a judgment call and you should accept me as i am and understand me." you keep saying it's ok to stigmatize obesity. i say the opposite. it's completely taboo and unacceptable to talk about it. that needs to change. becos as long as we're not allowed to get it out and talk about it, it will be repressed and below the surface and the actual discrimination against obesity (not just the "we're hurting their feelings" discrimination) will continue to work in subtle and insidious ways.

farfromglorified

soulsinging wrote:

what do we do about it?

Why don't you try not caring, because from what I've seen your so-called issues with obesity seem to be your problems, not theirs.

soulsinging

Ahnimus wrote:

That's just my view of course. I hope you consider that it is based on at least some understanding of the disciplines involved. Bear in mind that within each discipline there are various viewpoints as well. In physics this would be called Chaos Theory because of the impact of small influences on future events, in Psychology this is called Radical Behaviorism, in Cognitive Science it's Hard Determinism. There are others I'm sure, but so, this is the information processed and this is my determination. I'm not saying it's correct, again, that's totally up to the individual. I honestly believe it's proven, and I believe Einstein knew that and I'm pretty sure most agnostic scientists know it as well. It is still possible to believe in God with these underlying principles of determinism, but most theists believe that free-will is required, and for the last 2000 years specific percepts of God and humanity have influenced society, creating a social prejudice that denies reality.

I'm sorry if that seems autistic, I'm just being honest

and i think your theory is bogus. human behavior is not a mathematical formula. we're not robots or automatons. there is proof of that out there every day: art defies it. scientific discovery. creativity. they deny cold mathematical prediction. i have seen nothing to support the contention that all human behavior is determined by mathematical chance. perhaps in a very large scale sense humans fit mathematical categories in the same way all life on earth does, but individual people consistently defy any sort of categorization liek you're theorizing. if it were that simple, then eventually we will be able to mathematically determine through various formulas who will commit crimes, what job everyone should work, etc etc. you're talking about a 1984 style society. if this is also so perfectly measurable, there is no reason not to do it.

soulsinging

farfromglorified wrote:

Why don't you try not caring, because from what I've seen your so-called issues with obesity seem to be your problems, not theirs.

i dont, for the most part. until they're in a plane next to me spilling over onto my seat. then it IS my problem. cos i paid for my seat, and i should not have to share it with someone becos they're too big to fit in their own damn seat.

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

well then, id love to hear your solutions. cos we can sit her and jerk each other off in intellectual masturbation all day, but that isn't going to stop any obese people from having the supersize big mac today. what do we do about it? the best thing ive got so far is discouraging fatty foods and building exercise into people's lives more. someone earlier outlined a few points and they're a start. so we've got some biological causes as a possibility and you're claiming that it's psychological compulsion. how do we put a stop to that? biology is up to medicine. but the people who are compulsive, what do we do about them?

in my experience, compulsions like that cannot be put in remission until things get bad enough that they're willing to try anything. as long as we're saying "it's ok, it's not your fault" they'll try, then fail, then try, then fail in repetition. once you impose enough consequences on it though, people will finally realize that they HAVE to change. it has to go further than being depressed and wanting to change. they've got to realize "i cannot live like this anymore." even at that point, across the spectrum recovery from compulsive behavior is something like 10% at best. social stigma can be a big motivating factor. the other half is finding support and people who struggle with the same problems to build a community of people with shared goals and problems. alcoholics and drug addicts have this, as do gamblers and sex addicts. other areas are slower in coming. but part of it is your kind of thinking. nobody is allowed to tell an obese person "this is bad for you, maybe you should join a group to control your eating and exercise." cos they hit back with exactly what you've been telling me: "you're a bastard and that's just a judgment call and you should accept me as i am and understand me." you keep saying it's ok to stigmatize obesity. i say the opposite. it's completely taboo and unacceptable to talk about it. that needs to change. becos as long as we're not allowed to get it out and talk about it, it will be repressed and below the surface and the actual discrimination against obesity (not just the "we're hurting their feelings" discrimination) will continue to work in subtle and insidious ways.

I'm going to have to go back to farfromglorified's earlier comment in this thread: how is a person's lifestyle choices any of your business? If you have an issue with obese people overstepping your boundaries, such as on airplanes, there are productive channels to go through to make positive change. If you are looking to change people, that is not in the bounds of "help". I could discuss the experts, and how that understanding and help is available for those who need it. I've personally appreciated the wonderful help out there, from programs to books, etc. The bottom line is I know the help is there for people who want it, and I have every faith in people and their decisions. I trust the process 100%. I support people acting when they want to and I support them not acting when they don't want to. I support their choices, and I have understanding and compassion of them, whichever options seem to be in their best interests at the time.

farfromglorified

soulsinging wrote:

i dont, for the most part. until they're in a plane next to me spilling over onto my seat. then it IS my problem. cos i paid for my seat, and i should not have to share it with someone becos they're too big to fit in their own damn seat.

Like I said, the above is your problem, not theirs.

Jammin909

farfromglorified wrote:

Why don't you try not caring, because from what I've seen your so-called issues with obesity seem to be your problems, not theirs.

Are you fat?

farfromglorified

Jammin909 wrote:

Are you fat?

No. Any reason for asking?

angelica

Jammin909 wrote:

Are you fat?

I've seen pictures. He's not fat.

Jammin909

farfromglorified wrote:

No. Any reason for asking?

BC I have sat next to a gigantic man before on a plane as 'soulsinging' was describing and was totally pissed. I didnt care what emotional problem he had or why he was fat- just that he should have been more considerate. I dont know why anyone who isnt fat would defend that.

chopitdown

farfromglorified wrote:

Like I said, the above is your problem, not theirs.

technically if they can't fit into the seat that they purchased, it is their problem. So yes it is someones problem if they are annoyed by someone spilling over into their seat, but the root of the problem is the size of the person. No one would be upset if they fit into their seat.

soulsinging

farfromglorified wrote:

Like I said, the above is your problem, not theirs.

but i am not allowed to do anything about my problem. is someone allowed to molest me on the street or rape me? becos really... it's MY problem that i dont like it isnt it? it's not THEIR problem for impinging on my person. that is the very nature of battery... an unconsented touching. i dont like strangers putting their body on mine and that is a legally protected interest. yet i have no recourse when a fat guy sits next to me. why? becos we've got people out there who insist we cannot ever hurt anyone's feelings by telling them they're overweight. if this was a thin person next to me groping me, id be allowed to say something. but becos it's a fat person, i have to pretend i dont mind lest i hurt THEIR feelings. that is how it is their problem. cos it's their ego being hurt by their decisions. if you wanna be fat, fine. but dont raise a stink when i tell you to keep your rolls off my body in public.

angelica

Jammin909 wrote:

BC I have sat next to a gigantic man before on a plane as 'soulsinging' was describing and was totally pissed. I didnt care what emotional problem he had or why he was fat- just that he should have been more considerate. I dont know why anyone who isnt fat would defend that.

This reminds me of what Ahnimus pointed out about attribution: We think the problem is the other person....

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

but i am not allowed to do anything about my problem. is someone allowed to molest me on the street or rape me? becos really... it's MY problem that i dont like it isnt it? it's not THEIR problem for impinging on my person. that is the very nature of battery... an unconsented touching. i dont like strangers putting their body on mine and that is a legally protected interest. yet i have no recourse when a fat guy sits next to me. why? becos we've got people out there who insist we cannot ever hurt anyone's feelings by telling them they're overweight. if this was a thin person next to me groping me, id be allowed to say something. but becos it's a fat person, i have to pretend i dont mind lest i hurt THEIR feelings. that is how it is their problem. cos it's their ego being hurt by their decisions. if you wanna be fat, fine. but dont raise a stink when i tell you to keep your rolls off my body in public.

Do you realize that you taking measures to protect your rights and boundaries is entirely differently than trying to change people? The former you are entitled to. The latter shows others need protection from you. All this grandstanding about serial killers and child molesters is a ludicrous smokescreen.

farfromglorified

Jammin909 wrote:

BC I have sat next to a gigantic man before on a plane as 'soulsinging' was describing and was totally pissed.

I might be pissed too. But that's not the "gigantic man's" fault.

I didnt care what emotional problem he had or why he was fat- just that he should have been more considerate.

I really don't care what emotional problems he had either. I am wondering now what emotional problems you have to get pissed just because a "gigantic man" happens to be in your space for a couple of hours.

I dont know why anyone who isnt fat would defend that.

Defend what? The guy's right to buy an airplane seat based on the rules of the airline???? Defending that is also defending your right to do the same.

soulsinging

angelica wrote:

I'm going to have to go back to farfromglorified's earlier comment in this thread: how is a person's lifestyle choices any of your business? If you have an issue with obese people overstepping your boundaries, such as on airplanes, there are productive channels to go through to make positive change. If you are looking to change people, that is not in the bounds of "help". I could discuss the experts, and how that understanding and help is available for those who need it. I've personally appreciated the wonderful help out there, from programs to books, etc. The bottom line is I know the help is there for people who want it, and I have every faith in people and their decisions. I trust the process 100%. I support people acting when they want to and I support them not acting when they don't want to. I support their choices, and I have understanding and compassion of them, whichever options seem to be in their best interests at the time.

what are those channels? cos far as i can tell, it's forbidden to say anything that might hurt their feelings. it would cause a huge shitstorm to demand that people over X weight have to buy two seats. i support them in their chocicies too, as long as they are willing to accept the consequences of their choices. if they see nothing wrong with their lifestyle, more power to them. but that also means you have to accept the fact that you need 2 seats on an airplane. if you want to live your life and feel you shouldnt have to abide by the consequences though, oyu get no sympathy from me.

the judge did not let me off the hook for drunk driving just becos i was an alcoholic and couldnt control my compulsions. i had to live with those consequences and i did. and when it got bad enough, i changed. but until then, i didnt whine about how unfair it was that people wanted to hold me accountable for my choices.

soulsinging

angelica wrote:

This reminds me of what Ahnimus pointed out about attribution: We think the problem is the other person....

then what is jammin's problem? the fact that he doesn't like being touched by strangers? can i fondle your breats? cos if you dont like it, it's not cos IM the problem... it's cos you have a problem with what im doing to you right?

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

what are those channels? cos far as i can tell, it's forbidden to say anything that might hurt their feelings. it would cause a huge shitstorm to demand that people over X weight have to buy two seats. i support them in their chocicies too, as long as they are willing to accept the consequences of their choices. if they see nothing wrong with their lifestyle, more power to them. but that also means you have to accept the fact that you need 2 seats on an airplane. if you want to live your life and feel you shouldnt have to abide by the consequences though, oyu get no sympathy from me.

the judge did not let me off the hook for drunk driving just becos i was an alcoholic and couldnt control my compulsions. i had to live with those consequences and i did. and when it got bad enough, i changed. but until then, i didnt whine about how unfair it was that people wanted to hold me accountable for my choices.

You're an adult. It's up to you to make things happen for yourself. If all of your cultural systems are telling you your behaviour is inappropriate in your demands, maybe someday you'll figure it out. After all, you are for socially muscling obesity out of existence. Fair is fair. Why can't society muscle people's own emotional issues into their own backyard where they belong?

soulsinging

angelica wrote:

Do you realize that you taking measures to protect your rights and boundaries is entirely differently than trying to change people? The former you are entitled to. The latter shows others need protection from you. All this grandstanding about serial killers and child molesters is a ludicrous smokescreen.

and im not claiming i want anything more than protection of my interests. but i cannot get it. what part of that do you not understand? i dont care how much someone weighs, as long as they accept that and live accordingly. if they want to change, im happy to help. if not, i couldnt care less, it's their problem. but if they sit next to me on a plane and they're basically sitting on my lap... then i have an issue. but they're not asking for equality, they're asking for special consideration. they're demanding that i adapt to their lifestyle rather than them being accountable for their lifestyle.