Free-Will

hippiemom

Ahnimus wrote:

I understand your concern and I certainly respect every individuals own perception of reality. Everyone is entitled to it.

I have had experiences that I could not explain. I would black-out for several minutes while performing actions I was unaware of and had no ability to recall. This was usually in a fit of rage, which is quite common in people. This is how the conscious mind disconnects it's awareness from reality in times of psychological stress. This is why I say that perhaps consciousness is a disadvantage of evolution, it's nothing but constant upkeep. Without our level of consciousness we would be similar to animals and in almost every aspect they are superior. They have no functions other than to eat, sleep, and procreate. They do not question themselves or others in the way that we do. They do not worry about their self-esteem and successfulness with potential mates. As Eddie sings in Rats, they don't compare. Our consciousness is the sole source of these trivial perceptions. We live in a constant state of imagination while performing our daily routines. This is because of our subjective consciousness and our very objective need to survive. It's a burden to our species for sure, but also a gift I suppose.

I'm just saying that it's not flawless realistically speaking. Everyone has some kind of psychotic episode or enhanced memory of an event. It's not abnormal, it's normal, but it should be taken into consideration when discussing reality. An experience does not constitute reality. I can provide you with all the sources of information anyone would need for this determination. Unless, of course they had existing perceptions that are unwavering.

Yea, not many people address these issues which is sickening. It's not discussed in fear of offending someone. But the reality is, so by leading a lie we are making it worse. We tell our kids to lie at a very young age with grandiose fantasies like the easter bunny and santa claus. When they find out all that is a lie, they blame their parents for being dishonest about the myths, but also for being dishonest about lying and most adults believe that a lie is sometimes acceptable. Do you see the cause and effect of culture upon generations upon generations. Culture is not reality, society is not reality. Those are things of ethics and spirituality, beliefs and moral codes. Science is the study of reality.

But, believe as you will, seek no information to alter your perceptions. Live life as a drone to the constant influences upon your decisions. Deciding not your fate, but having fate chosen for you and assisting others in their fate. All the while watching it unfold, unable to do anything about it. This simple understanding of cause and effect, puts those struggles at rest. Calmly we can monitor our lives and without suffering the imbalance of pride and envy or the disgust for other people. I will hold this fact as known and continue the journey to my fate, which is to accumulate and spread knowledge, as far as I can predict. I would be skeptical as well, of course, it's the natural thing to do. All I can suggest is to accumulate the knowledge of all scientific disciplines to discover reality. Because knowledge is understanding, knowledge is power.

Your post brings up an interesting point to me about perception. You spoke of Santa and the Easter Bunny as being lies we tell to our kids, which they obviously are. But your perception of those lies is quite different from mine. When I discovered there was no Santa, I recall feeling quite pleased with myself. I wasn't upset with my parents at all ... on the contrary, I'd enjoyed it, and my feeling was that now that I was in the "in-the-know, grown-up" group, I would now get to help create the magic, and I had lots of fun helping to perpetuate the Santa myth for my little brother. To me, it felt more like a rite of passage than a deception uncovered. My little brother felt the same way ... that he'd enjoyed the lie so much, he had fun perpetuating it. We never "blamed" our parents, we thanked them. It was not reality, but damn, it was fun while it lasted!

As to the rest of your post, I can only hope that people here will recognize that I am not living my life as a drone.

Ahnimus

hippiemom wrote:

Your post brings up an interesting point to me about perception. You spoke of Santa and the Easter Bunny as being lies we tell to our kids, which they obviously are. But your perception of those lies is quite different from mine. When I discovered there was no Santa, I recall feeling quite pleased with myself. I wasn't upset with my parents at all ... on the contrary, I'd enjoyed it, and my feeling was that now that I was in the "in-the-know, grown-up" group, I would now get to help create the magic, and I had lots of fun helping to perpetuate the Santa myth for my little brother. To me, it felt more like a rite of passage than a deception uncovered. My little brother felt the same way ... that he'd enjoyed the lie so much, he had fun perpetuating it. We never "blamed" our parents, we thanked them. It was not reality, but damn, it was fun while it lasted!

As to the rest of your post, I can only hope that people here will recognize that I am not living my life as a drone.

Well, experience, as I said is one thing. The existence of the lie, reinforces the act of lying as acceptable behavior. Thus why most people don't see it as a big deal, unless they are lied to.

hippiemom

Ahnimus wrote:

Well, experience, as I said is one thing. The existence of the lie, reinforces the act of lying as acceptable behavior. Thus why most people don't see it as a big deal, unless they are lied to.

But that's just the thing ... most of us were lied to about Santa, and most of us thought it was a whole lot of fun!

Ahnimus

hippiemom wrote:

But that's just the thing ... most of us were lied to about Santa, and most of us thought it was a whole lot of fun!

For some people, unless you don't believe you should lie to your children. Like me, I think honesty is the only solution to any social interaction. If you are that kind of parent, it's difficult to explain why some parents lie to their friends, why they can't tell their friends the truth and why their parents don't lie to them. A small child is not that causally efficient to understand the concept in it's entirety.

angelica

Ahnimus, in numerous posts in this thread, I brought up points about subjective experience and it's validity. You were unable to address them. You consistently showed a lack of understanding of what subjective experience was. Then I mentioned the major parts of brain functioning that are non-logical. Again you did you address these points.

If you are attempting to fit all understanding into the purposes of the left-neocortex of your brain--adhering to linearity, causality, analysis etc, you will not be using your brain in an integrated way. Period. If you are distorting the map and calling it truth, you are adhering to scientism, not science. You've done this to the point of pretending that your opinion, based on facts and data is the truth. It IS the truth--your subjective truth. In the objective world of assessment, it's not even scientific truth because you've divorced yourself of your own bias, fallacy and subjectivity and therefore being unconscious of your own subjectivity are imposing your opinion upon the pristine nature of the scientific method.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

I know this thread is going to be ignored. Mark Twain was a very insightful person.

But, what we've been talking about are two different realities. Perceived (Conscious) Reality and Physical (Real) Reality.

So, we can say that there is nothing outside of our minds independent of what is inside our minds. This is half true, what we perceive in our minds is our ultimate perceived reality. We can bend spoons, travel through space, communicate with the dead or do anything within our perceived reality. However, the physical reality is wholy independent of our perceived reality. A person could be consciously on a beach in the tropics playing out an episode of Lost, but physically be in an asylum. This is dementia, dementia, psychopathy and schizophrenia are completely different than psychosis. Psychosis occurs in most people, it can be one event or multiple events or the same recurring event. Everyone that has a psychotic experience believes it to be true, in the event the episode actually helped a person, they are likely to hang on to it, even when they are told repeatedly by different sources that it's not real.

Similarly, someone can believe their subjective analysis, ie: opinon, to be objectively true and therefore be partaking of a break from the objective reality. It happens ALL the time! It's one thing when we are taking about brain chemicals and how they look (observable) and how they interact (observable). And it's one thing we we do this under pristine scientific conditions, avoiding distortion by numerous checks and balances. That is analysis and can be done objectively. When we interpret subjective experiences or data--as is done above, this is SUBJECTIVITY. What is assumed here to be an objective assessment is a subjective interpretation of the data. An opinion.

By the words put forth here, and from what you said earlier about schizophrenia in this thread, you reveal your lack of understanding of the material, imo.

Angelica, what you have described as your experience, describes psychosis to the T. A prior mental disorder, followed by extreme psychological stress, followed by an impossible experience, followed by reduction of stress and finally the belief the episode actually happened. This happens to enough people that you are likely to find support in your belief that it was real. This is because the conscious reality is partially independent of physical reality, in the physical reality, during that experience you were doing something different, maybe nothing, perhaps doing dishes. But your consciousness was elsewhere in an alternate reality, a perceived reality.

Anyway, that is reality, being that you have had this experience, you aren't likely to believe me. I don't mean any harm, rather I'm genuinely concerned about you. Believing this actually happened can be good for your stress-level, but it gives you a false perception of reality. If you don't totally hate me now and take this into consideration, read this information on psychosis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis

I feel it's important everyone scrutinizes their own experiences. Based on the knowledge that the conscious mind and reality exist separately, but co-dependent in a sense. Your mind can not exist without physical reality, but reality does exist without your mind. Psychosis is a seriously wide-spread problem. I know everyone likes to think their minds are infallable, perfect or otherwise in their complete control, but the vast array of mental disorders proves this wrong. I mean, I could be physically chopping wood in Vienna right now and I would never know the difference.

You are entitled to your subjective opinion, Ahnimus. As such, the truth of your subjective opinion is going to be weighed among other subjective opinions and personal world views. In this thread it looks like it's numerous for free will, one against.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

I understand your concern and I certainly respect every individuals own perception of reality. Everyone is entitled to it.

I have had experiences that I could not explain. I would black-out for several minutes while performing actions I was unaware of and had no ability to recall. This was usually in a fit of rage, which is quite common in people. This is how the conscious mind disconnects it's awareness from reality in times of psychological stress. This is why I say that perhaps consciousness is a disadvantage of evolution, it's nothing but constant upkeep. Without our level of consciousness we would be similar to animals and in almost every aspect they are superior. They have no functions other than to eat, sleep, and procreate. They do not question themselves or others in the way that we do. They do not worry about their self-esteem and successfulness with potential mates. As Eddie sings in Rats, they don't compare. Our consciousness is the sole source of these trivial perceptions. We live in a constant state of imagination while performing our daily routines. This is because of our subjective consciousness and our very objective need to survive. It's a burden to our species for sure, but also a gift I suppose.

You can pine for the heydey of when we were fused with our environment and did not have individual awareness all you want. The thing is we've evolved past that. I personally feel it's more effective to trust the purposes of that evolution and adapt for the challenges before us now: How do we take our newly developed individuality and integrate it with our environment? As we separated from the environment, we've caused a lot of fallout. However now that we have the awareness of this individuality honed, we can focus on finding ways to integrate individuality with reality.

I'm just saying that it's not flawless realistically speaking. Everyone has some kind of psychotic episode or enhanced memory of an event. It's not abnormal, it's normal, but it should be taken into consideration when discussing reality. An experience does not constitute reality. I can provide you with all the sources of information anyone would need for this determination. Unless, of course they had existing perceptions that are unwavering.

The problem is that you have studied these issues from your biased perspective. I have as well, which means I've uncovered the information and backup that shows that over and over and over people are provided transcendent awareness that inspires them dramatically. Many science discoveries come about by intuitive flashes of insight. You can pathologize that if you'd like. There is no basis for pathology, unless such experiences cause problems for the person. If these insights increase the quality of a person's life and increase their functioning and awareness, that is not pathology, illness or dis-ease! That is EASE! It is an INCREASE in functioning and awareness! At your subjective level of understanding this, you have demonstrated that you do not have the interpretive skill to correctly assess this basic value. The problem with objectifying others--reducing them to the surfaces you can see-- is that you miss the validity of the subjective information and Truths. It's not that they don't exist as your subjective perceptions tell you, but rather than you are blind to them.

Yea, not many people address these issues which is sickening. It's not discussed in fear of offending someone. But the reality is, so by leading a lie we are making it worse.

Thanks for your opinion. As I said in the obesity thread, it's psychologically well-known why it is not a good idea for anyone's sake to try to change others, or to "snap them out of their lie". By trying to do so, the person who tries to affect this change is coming from an imbalanced place, and creates imbalanced situations for their own self operating from their own unconscious problems. This is why psychologists do not run around doing this. They are bound by natural law. I can get past this by knowing full well that my interpretations are my subjective opinion. I see it as truth, but I only expect others to see it as truth, too, when it rings TRUE to them.

I've personally been reading about stages of human evolution. And it seems like we evolve in the perfect order for the perfect reasons. Cause and effect, don't you know. It sounds like you are personally bothered by the state of things, when you are including some personal subjective value judgements here (sickening, lie, worse). Of course your opinion of how we evolve does not affect the purposes for the operations of evolution, itself.

We tell our kids to lie at a very young age with grandiose fantasies like the easter bunny and santa claus. When they find out all that is a lie, they blame their parents for being dishonest about the myths, but also for being dishonest about lying and most adults believe that a lie is sometimes acceptable.

We tell our kids to lie in common, everyday things, and it DOES cause breaks from reality. This is widely studied. In your opinion stated here, you are not being objective but are lumping all reactions to the Santa/Easter bunny lies into the same category in order to make your subjective point. As hippiemom pointed out (and as scientific study of such dynamics would point out), different people react differently.

Do you see the cause and effect of culture upon generations upon generations. Culture is not reality, society is not reality. Those are things of ethics and spirituality, beliefs and moral codes. Science is the study of reality.

Wow. When we discount real things because we cannot understand them, that is referred to as a negative hallucination. Do you realize we study culture and society scientifically? It's pretty clear that subjectively, you have devalued them in your worldview. Still that is not valid objectively speaking. Cultural/social studies map our interactive subjective and our interactive objective experiences. It is WITHIN cultural perspectives that we develop our personal inner ways for processing information! For example, even just the symbols you learned to express your thoughts--language, is preceeded by culture. The ethical, moral context we were raised in is formed by culture! Intersubjective meanings that are generally take to be true are molded BY our culture. Cause and effect. For example. the idea in North America that "science is good"! Any sense of appropriateness or justness stems from culture. How and why people socially interact and how we set up our social systems is social! If you think these things are not real, I call that a very big negative hallucination! Yes, there are different criteria for mapping and interpreting them than the physical sciences. Scientific study and interpretation of these issues are held to specific standards of truth, such as: systems theory, structural functionalism, social systems mesh, cultural fit, mutual understanding.... To delete these issues from a world view, or to devalue them is only to cripple your own subjective worldview. You cannot remove science from these studies. The facts are otherwise.

But, believe as you will, seek no information to alter your perceptions.

Isn't it just as bad to seek information and then continually distort it by overlooking that your own interpretation is subjective?

Live life as a drone to the constant influences upon your decisions. Deciding not your fate, but having fate chosen for you and assisting others in their fate. All the while watching it unfold, unable to do anything about it. This simple understanding of cause and effect, puts those struggles at rest.

This is the problem with most people: trying to avoid cognitive dissonance. You are putting the struggles at rest, at the expense of a realistic world view beyond your own. ie: realizing what you do not know. Oh sure, you realize there is lots you don't know, in theory, however in your subjective experience you act as though what you don't know doesn't exist.

The way we truly, ACTUALLY put the struggles at rest, is by resolving the issues. Not deleting awareness of half our problems. Deleting awareness to half our problems is more commonly known as denial, and keeping our issues unconscious where the struggle rages within. Resolving means we solve and go beyond our problem, receiving the WISDOM for having done so.

Calmly we can monitor our lives and without suffering the imbalance of pride and envy or the disgust for other people. I will hold this fact as known and continue the journey to my fate, which is to accumulate and spread knowledge, as far as I can predict. I would be skeptical as well, of course, it's the natural thing to do. All I can suggest is to accumulate the knowledge of all scientific disciplines to discover reality. Because knowledge is understanding, knowledge is power.

Thanks for sharing your subjective view.

Ahnimus

Subjective experience, the sensory buzz and awareness associated with a conscious mind

I'm sorry, I see no value in dreams and fantasies.

Everything I've discussed is factually accurate.

surferdude

angelica wrote:

I think Ahnimus and myself agree more than we disagree. When he finds his inner self, we'll probably be able to do cool mind-swap intersubjective experiments over vast distances! Well I can already do them with him, but he can't do them back!

GOOD LUCK!!!! I'm sure you'll do just fine! As long as you don't spend too much time posting tonight! Make sure you let us know how you do!

I passed, more by grace than karma though. Of all my schooling getting this designation means the most to me because I did it as a single parent, and it took 5 years and 3 months to see through from beginning to end. I'm now enjoying one of the best tasting beers ever.

NMyTree

Ahnimus wrote:

Everything I've discussed is factually accurate.

Most of what you discussed can't be proven at all. So how is it "factually accurate" ?


Maybe it's factually accurate in your mind and in your opinion, but that's it.

Prove to me that all of our lives are already pre-determined by some enormous all encompassing script, which dictates every second of our lives and renders Free-Will an illusion? Prove it.

And for the record, dreams and fantasies are what have led to some of the most creative discoveries and inventions in the history of our species.

Writers for centuries now, have dreamed and created in their fictional (sci-fi..Fantasy....etc) works many things which inspired scientists. Scientists who later physically designed, engineered and created those very things; which were originally only dreamed of and created in the writers mind and jotted down on paper. Many scientists are dreamers and creative souls, themselves.

Most children love to dream and fantasize. The wonder, mystery, imagination and excitiment of being a child is an element/quality many people lose once reaching adulthood. But some of us retain that wonder....that curiosity.....that ability to dream and appreciate the mysteries of life....of the planet......of the universe. We grow up, but we remember what it was like and some us can still dream. We enter careers which are creatively orientated.

Despite all of our flaws, the things that make human beings special and sperate us from most animals; is the ability to creatively dream and to feel on a deep and profound level.

It's our creativity, our passion, our affection, our love, our lust, our desire.....our determination.......our intensity.......our ability to feel and live through both physical and emotional turmoil; and survive to learn our lessons and gain a slither of wisdom. Every time we go through it, we grow through it.

All that we experience whether good or bad. teaches us and makes us stronger. There's a price to pay for gaining even the slightest bit of wisdom. It takes decades and decades before most of us can gain any wisdom at all. But it's all worth it.

If you're not putting your heart and your soul into your life, if your not living to feel and experience all that is good and bad about love and life; then you're not living. You're simply existing.

angelica

surferdude wrote:

I passed, more by grace than karma though. Of all my schooling getting this designation means the most to me because I did it as a single parent, and it took 5 years and 3 months to see through from beginning to end. I'm now enjoying one of the best tasting beers ever.

Wow! Good for you! What a wonderful accomplishment! I feel honoured that you are sharing it with us! That sounds like one yummy beer. Enjoy. Congratulations!!!

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

Subjective experience, the sensory buzz and awareness associated with a conscious mind

I'm sorry, I see no value in dreams and fantasies.

Everything I've discussed is factually accurate.

I apologize if I was not clear. I did not dispute your facts; I pointed out that your personal opinions and interpretations of the facts are just that: your personal, subjective opinions and interpretations.

angelica

I would like to address transcendent experiences and psychosis. The following is from Ken Wilber's book "A Brief History of Everything". He is discussing states and stages of consciousness. This is said about stage models of development: "All developmentalists, with virtually no exceptions, have a stage-like list, or even a ladder-like list, a holarchy of growth and development...because that is what fits their data. These stages are the result of empirical, phenomenological, and interpretive evidence and massive amounts of research data. These folks are not making this stuff up because they like ladders"

A Brief History of Everything wrote:

Individuals can have a spiritual experience--a peak experience of an altered state of consciousness--at almost any stage of their growth. The basic levels, from the lowest to the highest, are potentials in every person's being. So you can tap into the higher dimensions under various conditions--moments of elation, of sexual passion, of stress, of dream-like reverie, of drug-induced states, and even during psychotic breaks.

But look what happens. Say a person is at Kohlberg's moral stage 3. And say they have an experience, an influx of certain subtle-realm phenomena(ed: union with God/Goddess/Deity--experiences that occur cross-culturally) --perhaps an intense interior illumination. This can profoundly change a person's life and open them to new worlds, new dimensions, new modes of awareness.

And perhaps it can lead to an actual transformation or evolution or development in their consciousness. So if you give this person a moral-stage test, you might find that they have indeed transformed from moral stage 3 to ... moral stage 4. There is nowhere else for them to go! Research has consistently shown that these stages cannot be bypassed, any more than you can go from an atom to a cell and bypass molecules. So a person at moral stage 3 who has a profound spiritual experience might be motivated to move to the next stage--in this case, to stage 4. They do not, under any circumstances go from stage 3 to stage 7.

The genuinely spiritual or transpersonal stages of development (Kohler's stage 7 and beyond) depend for their development upon all of the previous developments in stages 6, 5, 4, 3 and so on. Each of those stages contributes something absolutely essential for the manifestation of stage 7. And although a person can have a peak experience of a higher dimension, the person's self still has to grow and develop and evolve in order to permanently accommodate to those higher or deeper dimensions, in order to turn an "altered state" into a "permanent trait".

A state is a passing experience. Whether transcendent or psychotic. Being at levels where one has integrated transcendent/spiritual states into actual permanent traits is not at all a passing state, but a lasting STAGE of consciousness. A stage of consciousness cannot be psychotic.

In my own case this is exactly how it worked for me. It took me approximately 8-10 years before I effectively integrated the numerous spiritual experiences I've had since I turned 30. It was a long challenging road, but once I had these experiences of Truth, far beyond what was normal, I had to move towards allowing that Truth to become a permanent experience rather than a glimmer. This road entailed a complete ongoing dedication to healing, growth and transcendence, based upon reading book upon book on any related subject, and including addressing each of my disorders/addictions through practical treatments.

A Brief History of Everything wrote:

...people can have spiritual experiences and peak experiences and all sorts of altered states, but they still have to carry those experiences in their own structure. They still have to grow and develop to the point that they can actually accommodate the depth offered by the peak experiences. "States" still must be converted to "traits". You still have to go from the acorn to oak if you are going to become one with the forest. So while "states" are important, "stages" are even more important.

...The ladder (ed: to higher states) can develop way ahead of the self's willingness to climb it... It's one thing to tap into a higher level; quite another to actually live there!

... People can temporarily access some very high rungs in the ladder or circle of awareness, but they refuse to actually live from those levels--they won't actually climb up there. Their center of gravity remains quite low, even debased.

And if they are to live up to their spiritual experiences, then they will have to grow and develop. They will have to start the developmental unfolding, the holarchical expansion, the actual inhabiting of the expanding spheres of consciousness. Their center of gravity has to shift--to transform--to these deeper or higher spheres of consciousness; it does no good to merely "idealize" them in theoretical chit-chat and talking religion.

So you can have a very powerful peak experience or satori. But then days, weeks, months later--where do you carry it? What happens to this experience? Where does it reside? Your actual self, your center of gravity, can only accomodate this experience according to its own structure, its own capacity, its own stage of growth and development upon which enduring spiritual realization itself depends. Evolution can be accelerated...but not skipped over.

By the grace surferdude referred to, I have been blessed with the right variables in my life that enabled me to go beyond being a bi-polar disordered person with spiritual transcendent episodes experienced through psychosis. I'm one of the unbelievably fortunate ones who has been guided to the degree of being able to transform, heal, overcome illness and own my higher spiritual nature.

Ahnimus

NMyTree wrote:

Most of what you discussed can't be proven at all. So how is it "factually accurate" ?


Maybe it's factually accurate in your mind and in your opinion, but that's it.

Prove to me that all of our lives are already pre-determined by some enormous all encompassing script, which dictates every second of our lives and renders Free-Will an illusion? Prove it.

And for the record, dreams and fantasies are what have led to some of the most creative discoveries and inventions in the history of our species.

Writers for centuries now, have dreamed and created in their fictional (sci-fi..Fantasy....etc) works many things which inspired scientists. Scientists who later physically designed, engineered and created those very things; which were originally only dreamed of and created in the writers mind and jotted down on paper. Many scientists are dreamers and creative souls, themselves.

Most children love to dream and fantasize. The wonder, mystery, imagination and excitiment of being a child is an element/quality many people lose once reaching adulthood. But some of us retain that wonder....that curiosity.....that ability to dream and appreciate the mysteries of life....of the planet......of the universe. We grow up, but we remember what it was like and some us can still dream. We enter careers which are creatively orientated.

Despite all of our flaws, the things that make human beings special and sperate us from most animals; is the ability to creatively dream and to feel on a deep and profound level.

It's our creativity, our passion, our affection, our love, our lust, our desire.....our determination.......our intensity.......our ability to feel and live through both physical and emotional turmoil; and survive to learn our lessons and gain a slither of wisdom. Every time we go through it, we grow through it.

All that we experience whether good or bad. teaches us and makes us stronger. There's a price to pay for gaining even the slightest bit of wisdom. It takes decades and decades before most of us can gain any wisdom at all. But it's all worth it.

If you're not putting your heart and your soul into your life, if your not living to feel and experience all that is good and bad about love and life; then you're not living. You're simply existing.

Ok, right now, I am speaking through alcoholic influence, but I will do my best to make it legible.

Everything a person does they do for "reasons", even if they are unknown to them. Cause and effect, you said yourself : "All that we experience whether good or bad. teaches us and makes us stronger." amongst other statements that are in-line with determinism. Cause and effect means that the effect of ourselves is merely that of external causes, such as our parents. Our attitudes, behaviors and perceptions are molded by experience and genetics. This is totally undisputed in science. Angelica is taking about philosophy most of the time, I believe it's been described as "Hippy liberal" something or other. Which it is, it's hippy-talk, it's not reality. It's fantasy, and while dreams are good for art, they aren't for science, which is the study of reality. If a person has an experience beyond reality and can not measure it, well it's just ridiculous to believe it's fact. It's a made up fantasy, it doesn't happen. It's very simple.

These aren't just my interpretations of the facts. Most scientists believe what I'm saying to be true, including Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawkings and Charles Darwin. To deny reality is stupid, plain and simple and that is what is happening here.

If everything is determined by the past, then the future is set in stone.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

By the grace surferdude referred to, I have been blessed with the right variables in my life that enabled me to go beyond being a bi-polar disordered person with spiritual transcendent episodes experienced through psychosis. I'm one of the unbelievably fortunate ones who has been guided to the degree of being able to transform, heal, overcome illness and own my higher spiritual nature.

See, you have a great ego Angelica. Your ego trumps any objective or emprical data presented to you.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

See, you have a great ego Angelica. Your ego trumps any objective or emprical data presented to you.

If I were wrapped up in my ego, I would think it was because of my own self that the blessings in my life happened. Instead, I attribute the blessings of my life to the proper sources beyond my self.



Empirical: 1.derived from or guided by experience or experiment.
2. depending upon experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory.
3.provable or verifiable by experience or experiment.

Empirics: 1. One who is guided by practical experience rather than precepts or theory.

Considering my views were developed through empirics, and the empirical data of experience and observation, it might be your own ego that is trumping empirical data presented.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

If I were wrapped up in my ego, I would think it was because of my own self that the blessings in my life happened. Instead, I attribute the blessings of my life to the proper sources beyond my self.



Empirical: 1.derived from or guided by experience or experiment.
2. depending upon experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory.
3.provable or verifiable by experience or experiment.

Empirics: 1. One who is guided by practical experience rather than precepts or theory.

Considering my views were developed through empirics, and the empirical data of experience and observation, it might be your own ego that is trumping empirical data presented.

lol, that's not what it means.

provable or verifiable by experience or experiment.

I can not experience what you've experienced. I can not perform an experiment that I can represent for peer review to prove your theory. Your simplified definition of empirical means everything exists that has ever been experienced.

angelica

You'll have to take your issue up with dictionary.com, then, Ahnimus. Just because you delete your own self from an equation, and project that objectification onto everything else, apparently including dictionary definitions, does not make your view now over-ride dictionaries.


"Experience alone can decide on truth. ... Pure logical thinking cannot yield us any knowledge of the empirical world: all knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)"

angelica

I'll add these from dictionary.com:



Synonyms 1, 2. practical, firsthand, pragmatic.

Antonyms 1, 2. secondhand, theoretical.

Apparently, secondhand or theoretical is the opposite of empirical (antonym), firsthand, as in my firsthand experience, is synonymous with empirical.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

Angelica is taking about philosophy most of the time, I believe it's been described as "Hippy liberal" something or other. Which it is, it's hippy-talk, it's not reality. It's fantasy...

"I fully agree with you about the significance and educational value of methodology as well as history and philosophy of science. So many people today - and even professional scientists - seem to me like somebody who has seen thousands of trees but has never seen a forest. A knowledge of the historic and philosophical background gives that kind of independence from prejudices of his generation from which most scientists are suffering. This independence created by philosophical insight is - in my opinion - the mark of distinction between a mere artisan or specialist and a real seeker after truth." --Albert Einstein.

"Concepts that have proven useful in ordering things easily achieve such an authority over us that we forget their earthly origins and accept them as unalterable givens. Thus they come to be stamped as 'necessities of thought,' 'a priori givens,' etc. The path of scientific advance is often made impassable for a long time through such errors. For that reason, it is by no means an idle game if we become practiced in analyzing the long common place concepts and exhibiting those circumstances upon which their justification and usefulness depend, how they have grown up, individually, out of the givens of experience. By this means, their all-too-great authority will be broken". --Albert Einstein