Free-Will

surferdude

I just want to know should I keep studying for my exam tomorrow? Or is the outcome pre-ordained? 'Cause if the outcome is pre-ordained I'm going for beers tonight, and if it's not pre-ordained I guess I'm stuck with studying.

Ahnimus

surferdude wrote:

I just want to know should I keep studying for my exam tomorrow? Or is the outcome pre-ordained? 'Cause if the outcome is pre-ordained I'm going for beers tonight, and if it's not pre-ordained I guess I'm stuck with studying.

You fate is predetermined, but it's dependent on wether or not you study. If you study you will perform better on your exam, that's not to say you won't pass, but you probably won't unless you study. However, wether or not you do study is determined already and probablistically you will. Judging by your statement I can predict with some certainty that you will continue to study for your exam, because you know that if you don't, then you may not pass.

angelica

surferdude wrote:

I just want to know should I keep studying for my exam tomorrow? Or is the outcome pre-ordained? 'Cause if the outcome is pre-ordained I'm going for beers tonight, and if it's not pre-ordained I guess I'm stuck with studying.

I'd suggest you stick with the studying. The outcome is pre-ordained, based on your actions in the now. As Dr. Phil would say: "you choose the behaviour and you choose the consequences". Being pre-ordained doesn't mean you are guaranteed a positive outcome, or a negative one for that matter. From your perspective now, it's a surprise! Therefore it's a good idea that you own your will and create your own reality, given the circumstances. Aka: do your best!

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Subjective levels of value exist. Which is why I don't often get proven wrong in a debate. Truth is truth. And when one subjective truth trumps another that is a fact. It's clear to those witnessing it. The "guessing" thing is pure illusion. The fact that you use an objective question to show your (lack of) understanding of subjective truth shows just how crippled that function is for you. That's the problem of science: the surface mapping of the physical realm has turned into scientism by overtaking and monopolizing realms that science and objective mapping cannot assess. So people walk around oblivious to what they cannot "see" even when they interact with it regularly in each day. It's because they don't know how to awaken to the framework. Therefore it remains unconscious. But right before your eyes.

So, since we cannot observe the whole earth doesn't mean the earth is flat. But since we can observe the whole earth means the earth is round.

We can observe the whole mind in many different objective and subjective ways. Psychology is mainly the subjective study of the mind. We know through psychology that suppressors and reinforcers determine a person's behavior. It's quite simple, the brain performs 400 billion computations per seconds and of those we are consciously aware of 2000. Those 2000 computations are not independent of the 400 billion our brains already compute. If you are aware of more than 2000 computations does not mean you control them, they are still computed independently of your awareness.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

You fate is predetermined, but it's dependent on wether or not you study.

Interesting Ahnimus. Are you pointing out that the crux of the matter is dependent upon the choice or free will of the subject? Checkmate.

farfromglorified

Ahnimus wrote:

What's ironic about this, really, is that a year ago I had this same conversation with a computational cognitive scientist and a biologist, and I used all the same arguements you guys are, but in the end I was wrong.

Umm...if you were "wrong" there is no wrong answer, since determination eliminates perception which in turn eliminates judgment.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Interesting Ahnimus. Are you pointing out that the crux of the matter is dependent upon the choice or free will of the subject? Checkmate.

No, His success on his exam is dependent on wether or not he studies, wether or not he studies depends on his knowledge of exams. He knows that passing the exam is dependent on studying, so therefor he studies. It's not a choice.

Ahnimus

farfromglorified wrote:

Umm...if you were "wrong" there is no wrong answer, since determination eliminates perception which in turn eliminates judgment.

Not exactly, because perception is determined by information. My perception at the time was incorrect due to misinformation or lack of information. Perception still exists with determinism, that is the point of having to increase our knowledge to better ourselves, we can not become better by simply willing it, because in our subjective consciousness we are already perfect until provided with significant information to suggest otherwise. Judgement is the computational outcome of our brains determined by the knowledge we posess. Judgement should not exist in the form of blaming another's free-will for their actions, when there actions are dependent on their knowledge and free-will does not exist.

surferdude

angelica wrote:

I'd suggest you stick with the studying. The outcome is pre-ordained, based on your actions in the now. As Dr. Phil would say: "you choose the behaviour and you choose the consequences". Being pre-ordained doesn't mean you are guaranteed a positive outcome, or a negative one for that matter. From your perspective now, it's a surprise! Therefore it's a good idea that you own your will and create your own reality, given the circumstances. Aka: do your best!

Damn it. You and Ahnimus finally agree on something and it involves me studying and not going out for beers.

I can tell you my tomorrow is pre-ordained. Study, write the exam, get results, spending many hours with buddy drinking to either celebrate or curse the fact that I'll be writing the exam again in two weeks and spending nearly $500 for that pleasure.

Whatever the outcome, pre-ordained or not, I'm letting loose tomorrow. My buddy's babysitting me and I'll find some nice lady to make laugh or drink trying.

Maybe this world is a mix of karma and grace.

Ahnimus

surferdude wrote:

Damn it. You and Ahnimus finally agree on something and it involves me studying and not going out for beers.

I can tell you my tomorrow is pre-ordained. Study, write the exam, get results, spending many hours with buddy drinking to either celebrate or curse the fact that I'll be writing the exam again in two weeks and spending nearly $500 for that pleasure.

Whatever the outcome, pre-ordained or not, I'm letting loose tomorrow. My buddy's babysitting me and I'll find some nice lady to make laugh or drink trying.

Maybe this world is a mix of karma and grace.

Haha that's funny.

Good example of how your tomorrow is predetermined by what you want to do, you ultimately decide this based on the complex dynamics of your brain, but free-will is not a part of it. Drinking is habitual and is reinforced by many aspects of society as well as the positive stimulus of being hammered. The only suppressor is the knowledge that alcohol damages the liver and the hang-over the next morning, which typically isn't sufficient to suppress the desire for the positive effects. So therefor you will drink tomorrow, unless some unexpected event interferes.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

So, since we cannot observe the whole earth doesn't mean the earth is flat. But since we can observe the whole earth means the earth is round.

We can observe the whole mind in many different objective and subjective ways. Psychology is mainly the subjective study of the mind. We know through psychology that suppressors and reinforcers determine a person's behavior. It's quite simple, the brain performs 400 billion computations per seconds and of those we are consciously aware of 2000. Those 2000 computations are not independent of the 400 billion our brains already compute. If you are aware of more than 2000 computations does not mean you control them, they are still computed independently of your awareness.

Psychology is a science. When you are studying people and gauging and predicting behaviours, that is from the outside. It is not from the perspective of the subject. It is not subjective. The subjective is exprienced from within. It seems like you have little idea of what it is. That we consider the objective study of the subjective to be subjective continues to show how scientism continues to strangle balanced understanding. I'm not comfortable having a blind subject (scientist) doing my science for me. That our science people are blind is why we have ongoing scientism and not balanced science. All of the science is insidiously distorted by what people overlook about themselves.

farfromglorified

Ahnimus wrote:

Not exactly, because perception is determined by information. My perception at the time was incorrect due to misinformation or lack of information. Perception still exists with determinism, that is the point of having to increase our knowledge to better ourselves, we can not become better by simply willing it, because in our subjective consciousness we are already perfect until provided with significant information to suggest otherwise. Judgement is the computational outcome of our brains determined by the knowledge we posess.

You can't have "my perception" in a deterministic system. There is neither a "my" (conscious individual) or any possible perceptive construct you can build that would define perception. Perception is relative and without a conscious individual, there is nothing for reality to be relative to.

Judgement should not exist in the form of blaming another's free-will for their actions, when there actions are dependent on their knowledge and free-will does not exist.

That would be a judgment, by the way, in which you've blamed me for what you've judged as an incorrect post. Furthermore, my "blaming" becomes irrelevant since there is no standard to measure it against. Telling me what I "should" do would imply a choice in the matter in order to accomplish something morally correct. You've destroyed each of those concepts here.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Psychology is a science. When you are studying people and gauging and predicting behaviours, that is from the outside. It is not from the perspective of the subject. It is not subjective. The subjective is exprienced from within. It seems like you have little idea of what it is. That we consider the objective study of the subjective to be subjective continues to show how scientism continues to strangle balanced understanding. I'm not comfortable having a blind subject (scientist) doing my science for me. That our science people are blind is why we have ongoing scientism and not balanced science. All of the science is insidiously distorted by what people overlook about themselves.

What is your alternative to the modern scientific method?

"What I say is true"?

Because you can't prove it, because your experience is subjective and not impericle. Meanwhile someone following the scientific method can prove it objectively because it's reproducable.

"Hey look the earth is flat!"

"Wow, but how do we know it's flat? I mean we can't see the end of it."

"Don't be so scientific, we can clearly see that it's flat."

angelica

surferdude wrote:

Damn it. You and Ahnimus finally agree on something and it involves me studying and not going out for beers.

I can tell you my tomorrow is pre-ordained. Study, write the exam, get results, spending many hours with buddy drinking to either celebrate or curse the fact that I'll be writing the exam again in two weeks and spending nearly $500 for that pleasure.

Whatever the outcome, pre-ordained or not, I'm letting loose tomorrow. My buddy's babysitting me and I'll find some nice lady to make laugh or drink trying.

Maybe this world is a mix of karma and grace.

I think Ahnimus and myself agree more than we disagree. When he finds his inner self, we'll probably be able to do cool mind-swap intersubjective experiments over vast distances! Well I can already do them with him, but he can't do them back!

GOOD LUCK!!!! I'm sure you'll do just fine! As long as you don't spend too much time posting tonight! Make sure you let us know how you do!

surferdude

What I find weird about this discussion so far is that no one has touched on the idea of grace. Karma has been touched on in a way with actions having outcomes. Does anyone here accept grace as an occuring event?

Ahnimus

farfromglorified wrote:

You can't have "my perception" in a deterministic system. There is neither a "my" (conscious individual) or any possible perceptive construct you can build that would define perception. Perception is relative and without a conscious individual, there is nothing for reality to be relative to.

That would be a judgment, by the way, in which you've blamed me for what you've judged as an incorrect post. Furthermore, my "blaming" becomes irrelevant since there is no standard to measure it against. Telling me what I "should" do would imply a choice in the matter in order to accomplish something morally correct. You've destroyed each of those concepts here.

Your thinking about determinism is far to linear for it's complexity. But then, you are looking to defend your integrated perception of free-will.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

No, His success on his exam is dependent on wether or not he studies, wether or not he studies depends on his knowledge of exams. He knows that passing the exam is dependent on studying, so therefor he studies. It's not a choice.

Are you eliminating or glossing over the role of the subject who makes the decisions?

angelica

surferdude wrote:

What I find weird about this discussion so far is that no one has touched on the idea of grace. Karma has been touched on in a way with actions having outcomes. Does anyone here accept grace as an occuring event?

There goes the studying!

What do you define as grace?

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Are you eliminating or glossing over the role of the subject who makes the decisions?

No, I am not, the decision is made in the computational complexity of his brain, not his awareness. Free-will only exists within the awareness and the awareness only exists because of the brain. Therefor free-will is an illusion because his brain made the choice a split-second before he was aware that he made the choice. In-fact awareness can be seen simply as a synopsis of the brain's relevant activity. When a person uses their "will" their "will" has already been used by the brain and the conscious is only aware of it. This means that the brain is only a machine that computes information, like a computer.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

What do you define as grace?

I'm not sure what you mean by grace either. Many theists that accept the fact of determinism also accept that there may not be an endless loop of causality. That something could exist beyond our state of reality that exists as a cause of our reality, thus eliminating the need for infinite causality or a causal loop. It's also suggested that if an entity such as God can exist beyond our realm of reality and interact with it enough to cause it, then it's possible God acts as an intermediary to the complex system of causilty and can also interact with it, even though we can not because we exist within it. This is called a miracle.