Free-Will

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

No, I am not, the decision is made in the computational complexity of his brain, not his awareness. Free-will only exists within the awareness and the awareness only exists because of the brain. Therefor free-will is an illusion because his brain made the choice a split-second before he was aware that he made the choice. In-fact awareness can be seen simply as a synopsis of the brain's relevant activity. When a person uses their "will" their "will" has already been used by the brain and the conscious is only aware of it. This means that the brain is only a machine that computes information, like a computer.

I get that the brain makes the decisions. The awareness of surferdude is his ego. The ego is the tip of the iceberg of who surferdude is. The brain behind the awareness that makes this "computation" is also surferdude. That's why it's his unconscious or superconscious that decides. He's not aware of it, but it's still him. It's definitely not me. Or you. Psychology is well aware that we are farrrr more than our conscious awareness, and we are accountable for what we do that we are not aware of! Most of us exist unconsciously through much of our lives. And yet we must live the consequences of our own blindness.

Ahnimus

I should have done this at the beginning to see if my statements have any effect.

Look at this diagram of free-will taxonomy and please state your viewpoint
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:FreeWillTaxonomy2.png

Also not that Libertarianism that many people detest is simply the denial of causality and total reliance on the metaphysical concept of free-will.

I will, as I did before, classify my self as a Hard Determinist.

If the terms are confusing here is the main article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-will

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

I get that the brain makes the decisions. The awareness of surferdude is his ego. The ego is the tip of the iceberg of who surferdude is. The brain behind the awareness that makes this "computation" is also surferdude. That's why it's his unconscious or superconscious that decides. He's not aware of it, but it's still him. It's definitely not me. Or you. Psychology is well aware that we are farrrr more than our conscious awareness, and we are accountable for what we do that we are not aware of! Most of us exist unconsciously through much of our lives. And yet we must live the consequences of our own blindness.

That is determinism though. It's not to say that a person has no choice, but rather that a person has no choice independent of reality, which means essentially their choices are determined for them by the causal nature of reality. You already think along the lines of a determinist and I would classify you now as a compatibilist, but I think deep down your a Hard Determinist. But you are defending free-will as if conceding that free-will is an illusion that renders subjective introspection invalid, when all it means is that free-will is not a constant metaphysical endowment that determines right from wrong. It simply means that free-will is actually determined-will or variable-will.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

That is determinism though. It's not to say that a person has no choice, but rather that a person has no choice independent of reality, which means essentially their choices are determined for them by the causal nature of reality. You already think along the lines of a determinist and I would classify you now as a compatibilist, but I think deep down your a Hard Determinist. But you are defending free-will as if conceding that free-will is an illusion that renders subjective introspection invalid, when all it means is that free-will is not a constant metaphysical endowment that determines right from wrong. It simply means that free-will is actually determined-will or variable-will.

I defend free will because I know, from personal subjective experience, how far I extend. I am fully conscious of how I extend way beyond my ego, and into my surroundings, and into levels of pure consciousness, and beyond time and dimension. I extend into the nothingness. I regularly interact with the implicate order from the holographic universe fame--I am a channel for it's concepts. Call me whatever you want. My only need is to do justice to the truths I've been shown. I have resolved the duality and I embrace the whole. Rather than have no will, I see that my will creates everything I see. I have ongoing experiences where the universe shows me the truth of my accountability for choices so that I can rectify and change situations and resolve them into the whole, and therefore move on from a loop that once bound me. I am in intimate relationship with the intuition of life. I know I am fully embraced by the all, and it chooses my each action, and still I am It. Each day, I surrender my will to the universal will, and by doing so, I am aligned with life, and each choice I make is the choice of the Universe. All of this hinges on one thing: my permission. The universe will not violate my will. It will only show me things that I ask or open myself to see. I value and honour this immense natural law and it's immense intelligence and emanating respect, and I try to use it as a role model for how I treat others. If I say no, I don't want to be open to this force, I'd rather compulsively post on the Pearl Jam forum, it allows me to feel that disconnection. It will not force me. It is me. It knows me more intimately than I know me because it is me from deeper and deeper and deeper levels. It knows each moment is perfect pristine experience. And thankfully, I also know each moment is also perfect pristine experience. Whether my choices make me feel great or whether they make me feel uncomfortable.

angelica

This perfect intelligence--the ocean to my drop of water--it communicates the sacredness of free will by allowing, say, farfromglorified to see differently. It has blessed him with the vision that he chooses and sees. And it supports it 100%. This intelligence enables farfromglorified to exist in a universe where he is free and individual and paving the way for others to recognize the same freedoms. This intelligence supports, and channels the energy to George Bush, to do exactly what he sees fit, even when we all are horrified. Yes, George, farfromglorified and myself are wired in specific ways in a causal sense, and that is part of the perfection that enables us to live out our individual dreams. Just like the homeless man is living his deepest inner vision. All of this is much beyond man-made social convention and our ideas of what is right and wrong. It's beyond what people think we should or should not do. This is at the level of truth and deep subjective choice within the whole. It's very profound, very deep and very sacred.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

This perfect intelligence--the ocean to my drop of water--it communicates the sacredness of free will by allowing, say, farfromglorified to see differently. It has blessed him with the vision that he chooses and sees. And it supports it 100%. This intelligence enables farfromglorified to exist in a universe where he is free and individual and paving the way for others to recognize the same freedoms. This intelligence supports, and channels the energy to George Bush, to do exactly what he sees fit, even when we all are horrified. Yes, George, farfromglorified and myself are wired in specific ways in a causal sense, and that is part of the perfection that enables us to live out our individual dreams. Just like the homeless man is living his deepest inner vision. All of this is much beyond man-made social convention and our ideas of what is right and wrong. It's beyond what people think we should or should not do. This is at the level of truth and deep subjective choice within the whole. It's very profound, very deep and very sacred.

I guess you don't see how that is cause and effect and determinism. Rather you believe it's a mystical metaphysical thing that can never be explained. When in reality what you are describing is determinisn, a specific set of laws that determine your choices.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

I guess you don't see how that is cause and effect and determinism. Rather you believe it's a mystical metaphysical thing that can never be explained. When in reality what you are describing is determinisn, a specific set of laws that determine your choices.

It looks like what I am describing and what you are hearing are two different things. Cause and effect is something that occurs in the physical objective universe. Laws of cause and effect take on a whole new meaning in the subjective sphere. I said before that I embrace cause and effect, and I have also integrated and transcended it in my world view. To reduce this transcendent view to the cause and effect realm is like reducing an organism by saying it is an atom. To do so is to practise a reductionism that is unrealistic in the objective sense. Therefore not only are you looking at a map and confusing it with the territory, but you are also looking at a distorted, inaccurate map and confusing it with the territory. For example in order for you to fit me into your deterministic-non-free-will-view, you must diminish my subjective experience of sacred free will, thereby distorting my experiences of the subjective realm. Distortion is the opposite of understanding.

We cannot map the alogical with the logical. Alogical is BEYOND logic and therefore logic cannot understand it. If you want to try, it comes off more as you projecting your view onto my own. At the same time, if you relate to aspects of what I am saying, and don't as much comprehend others, that makes perfect sense. Cause and effect, and the sense of a preordained completed universe IS a very important part of this. That is why I relate to your views of serial killers and have compassion and understanding of them rather than harbour judgment and blame. The problem of people not having developed their subjective understanding is that they cannot see the worldview of those who have developed theirs. They confuse that with the idea that this worldview does not exist. It's common at this time, since the majority accepts common conventions in thought. And especially common conventions that stem from the distortions of scientism which mutated the non-logical intelligences in mass understanding. It is not common to have a balanced objective-subjective awareness. However this principle also shows me clearly who is in my world-view space because they CAN see what I see. And it goes without saying.

Ahnimus

Forgive me but I find that whole statement to be fairly non-logical or alogical if you will. The human mind is very logical, but you have to assume that first to understand it. You can't believe in a metaphysical plane where our consciousness and will interacts outside of reality, where our abilities of volition and judgement are innate to that metaphysical, uncertain, unmeasurable realm without it impacting the physical realm, and everything that happens phsyically can be explained physically, such as human thought.

I know this is very very complex, there are simple explanations, simple rules that one can accept, and if they do will have total understanding of the universe. But if they do not accept them, their life will be shrouded in mystery, constantly unaware of the forces interacting with them. I think you are mistaking this awareness for something metaphysical or unmeasurable.

Ahnimus

It's like this, if you believe you have free-will, then you have the illusion of free-will. You can believe whatever you want, and as long as you believe it, you have the illusion of having it. Even though real, measurable events determined those senses which you have, but you are attributing it to something metaphysical, because you don't understand it. If you did understand it and had an explanation for it, it wouldn't be beyond the realm of cause and effect and would therefor be determined.

So just because you can't explain an experience, doesn't mean it isn't explainable.

Ahnimus

Ok, I know Que Barum was looking for a specific example, and now I have one. Schizophrenia.

Schizophrenia can be described as the feeling of unwillful acts. A persons actions are disconnected from their feeling of free-will. Schizophrenics do not believe that their own actions are of free-will because they do not have the sense of free-will connected to those actions.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

Forgive me but I find that whole statement to be fairly non-logical or alogical if you will. The human mind is very logical, but you have to assume that first to understand it. You can't believe in a metaphysical plane where our consciousness and will interacts outside of reality, where our abilities of volition and judgement are innate to that metaphysical, uncertain, unmeasurable realm without it impacting the physical realm, and everything that happens phsyically can be explained physically, such as human thought.

I know this is very very complex, there are simple explanations, simple rules that one can accept, and if they do will have total understanding of the universe. But if they do not accept them, their life will be shrouded in mystery, constantly unaware of the forces interacting with them. I think you are mistaking this awareness for something metaphysical or unmeasurable.

What I mean about alogic/logic, is that only the left neo-cortex deals in terms of logic, analysis, cause and effect, etc. The right neo-cortex deals in symbols (wholes), and the gestalt (wholes) and synthesis (wholes). The limbic system--our emotions--are alogical or beyond logic. Logic is a relatively small part of our brain functioning. You can talk logically about all parts of the brain, but just like explaining the experience of watching a spectacular sunset to someone--it falls dramatically short of the experience of functions that are by definition beyond logic. When you continue to reduce my experiences to fit what you can understand, you continue to see them through your inaccurate map of my experiences. Yes, it's possible for you to get a sense of what I mean, however, you keep trying to change what I tell you, as if you know better, thereby distorting my view. In truth, my experiences and my subjective view lives on in full wholeness independent of your opinions and maps of them.

The metaphysical is not outside reality. It is outside the physical. It is very real. This realm is entirely measureable. It's been explored, measured and mapped by many many people through the ages. Because you might discount non-scientific measurement only shows your own bias against the subjective levels, not that non-scientific measurement does not exist. Such realms are more certain to me than conventional ones. If they are uncertain to you, it is because you do not know them. I've said time and again, these experiences of mine HAVE fully impacted the physical. I used to have two serious psychiatric disorders. I used to be an alcoholic, smoker, promiscuous, coffee drinking eating disordered girl. I now am now none of the above. To the people who know me and have experienced this transformation with me, it is nothing short of miraculous. You know all this about me and yet you still reduce my experiences to something you can wrap your head around, instead of trying to wrap your head around my experiences. Think what you want. It affects what you are willing to see, not what I see.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

It's like this, if you believe you have free-will, then you have the illusion of free-will. You can believe whatever you want, and as long as you believe it, you have the illusion of having it. Even though real, measurable events determined those senses which you have, but you are attributing it to something metaphysical, because you don't understand it. If you did understand it and had an explanation for it, it wouldn't be beyond the realm of cause and effect and would therefor be determined.

So just because you can't explain an experience, doesn't mean it isn't explainable.

It works like this, Ahnimus: In the evolution of consciousness as has been widely mapped, it is the levels where people think their view is right and that others are not that indicate a person who is stuck in their own view rather than seeing realistically.

I've explained my experiences over and over to you. You choose to discount them and try to fit them into your map. That tells me you are not getting them.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

What I mean about alogic/logic, is that only the left neo-cortex deals in terms of logic, analysis, cause and effect, etc. The right neo-cortex deals in symbols (wholes), and the gestalt (wholes) and synthesis (wholes). The limbic system--our emotions--are alogical or beyond logic. Logic is a relatively small part of our brain functioning. You can talk logically about all parts of the brain, but just like explaining the experience of watching a spectacular sunset to someone--it falls dramatically short of the experience of functions that are by definition beyond logic. When you continue to reduce my experiences to fit what you can understand, you continue to see them through your inaccurate map of my experiences. Yes, it's possible for you to get a sense of what I mean, however, you keep trying to change what I tell you, as if you know better, thereby distorting my view. In truth, my experiences and my subjective view lives on in full wholeness independent of your opinions and maps of them.

The metaphysical is not outside reality. It is outside the physical. It is very real. This realm is entirely measureable. It's been explored, measured and mapped by many many people through the ages. Because you might discount non-scientific measurement only shows your own bias against the subjective levels, not that non-scientific measurement does not exist. Such realms are more certain to me than conventional ones. If they are uncertain to you, it is because you do not know them. I've said time and again, these experiences of mine HAVE fully impacted the physical. I used to have two serious psychiatric disorders. I used to be an alcoholic, smoker, promiscuous, coffee drinking eating disordered girl. I now am now none of the above. To the people who know me and have experienced this transformation with me, it is nothing short of miraculous. You know all this about me and yet you still reduce my experiences to something you can wrap your head around, instead of trying to wrap your head around my experiences. Think what you want. It affects what you are willing to see, not what I see.

Those experiences aren't any different than my own, you simply attribute them to something else. Obviously to something that influenced your change, but that means that that influence on your change was an influence on your choice and therefor determinism.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

It works like this, Ahnimus: In the evolution of consciousness as has been widely mapped, it is the levels where people think their view is right and that others are not that indicate a person who is stuck in their own view rather than seeing realistically.

I've explained my experiences over and over to you. You choose to discount them and try to fit them into your map. That tells me you are not getting them.

I'm not changing your experience, listen, it's very very simple.

You had a disorder (Problem), you experienced something be it spiritual enlightment of expansion of consciousness (Cause), you cured your problem (Effect). It's a cause and effect system. It's determinism.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm not changing your experience, listen, it's very very simple.

You had a disorder (Problem), you experienced something be it spiritual enlightment of expansion of consciousness (Cause), you cured your problem (Effect). It's a cause and effect system. It's determinism.

Well I can see you don't need my input. You've got it all figured out.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Well I can see you don't need my input. You've got it all figured out.

Actually, I do, I've never been so sure of anything in my life. I've been a skeptic of everything, including this, but this is reality independent of whatever I feel.

Ahnimus

I'll tell you why this kind of experience isn't good evidence.

Millions of Americans have been abducted by Aliens.

These people aren't making it up consciously, the experience was real to them, but not to the causal observer. Recent studies have linked Ghost sightings, spiritual enlightment, etc... to minor forms of psychosis, temporary or recurring. I apologize, but before you chew my head off, keep in mind psychosis carries social implications not suited for it. Psychosis is very real affecting billions of living breathing human beings.

Perhaps your experience was genuine, or seemed genuine, but to the rest of the world it only amounts to an experience.. Even whitness testimony from a perfectly healthy adult individual is only 40% accurate because we invariably apply our own individual prejudices to our perception of past events. This is true for everyone, but some people under psychological stress will experience impossible events, such as out-of-body experiences, communication with the dead, etc.. If we believed everyone's "experiences" were totally objective or true, we would be in contact with Aliens on a global scale.

Ahnimus

I know this thread is going to be ignored. Mark Twain was a very insightful person.

But, what we've been talking about are two different realities. Perceived (Conscious) Reality and Physical (Real) Reality.

So, we can say that there is nothing outside of our minds independent of what is inside our minds. This is half true, what we perceive in our minds is our ultimate perceived reality. We can bend spoons, travel through space, communicate with the dead or do anything within our perceived reality. However, the physical reality is wholy independent of our perceived reality. A person could be consciously on a beach in the tropics playing out an episode of Lost, but physically be in an asylum. This is dementia, dementia, psychopathy and schizophrenia are completely different than psychosis. Psychosis occurs in most people, it can be one event or multiple events or the same recurring event. Everyone that has a psychotic experience believes it to be true, in the event the episode actually helped a person, they are likely to hang on to it, even when they are told repeatedly by different sources that it's not real.

Angelica, what you have described as your experience, describes psychosis to the T. A prior mental disorder, followed by extreme psychological stress, followed by an impossible experience, followed by reduction of stress and finally the belief the episode actually happened. This happens to enough people that you are likely to find support in your belief that it was real. This is because the conscious reality is partially independent of physical reality, in the physical reality, during that experience you were doing something different, maybe nothing, perhaps doing dishes. But your consciousness was elsewhere in an alternate reality, a perceived reality.

Anyway, that is reality, being that you have had this experience, you aren't likely to believe me. I don't mean any harm, rather I'm genuinely concerned about you. Believing this actually happened can be good for your stress-level, but it gives you a false perception of reality. If you don't totally hate me now and take this into consideration, read this information on psychosis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis

I feel it's important everyone scrutinizes their own experiences. Based on the knowledge that the conscious mind and reality exist separately, but co-dependent in a sense. Your mind can not exist without physical reality, but reality does exist without your mind. Psychosis is a seriously wide-spread problem. I know everyone likes to think their minds are infallable, perfect or otherwise in their complete control, but the vast array of mental disorders proves this wrong. I mean, I could be physically chopping wood in Vienna right now and I would never know the difference.

hippiemom

Ahnimus wrote:

I know this thread is going to be ignored. Mark Twain was a very insightful person.

But, what we've been talking about are two different realities. Perceived (Conscious) Reality and Physical (Real) Reality.

So, we can say that there is nothing outside of our minds independent of what is inside our minds. This is half true, what we perceive in our minds is our ultimate perceived reality. We can bend spoons, travel through space, communicate with the dead or do anything within our perceived reality. However, the physical reality is wholy independent of our perceived reality. A person could be consciously on a beach in the tropics playing out an episode of Lost, but physically be in an asylum. This is dementia, dementia, psychopathy and schizophrenia are completely different than psychosis. Psychosis occurs in most people, it can be one event or multiple events or the same recurring event. Everyone that has a psychotic experience believes it to be true, in the event the episode actually helped a person, they are likely to hang on to it, even when they are told repeatedly by different sources that it's not real.

Angelica, what you have described as your experience, describes psychosis to the T. A prior mental disorder, followed by extreme psychological stress, followed by an impossible experience, followed by reduction of stress and finally the belief the episode actually happened. This happens to enough people that you are likely to find support in your belief that it was real. This is because the conscious reality is partially independent of physical reality, in the physical reality, during that experience you were doing something different, maybe nothing, perhaps doing dishes. But your consciousness was elsewhere in an alternate reality, a perceived reality.

Anyway, that is reality, being that you have had this experience, you aren't likely to believe me. I don't mean any harm, rather I'm genuinely concerned about you. Believing this actually happened can be good for your stress-level, but it gives you a false perception of reality. If you don't totally hate me now and take this into consideration, read this information on psychosis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis

I feel it's important everyone scrutinizes their own experiences. Based on the knowledge that the conscious mind and reality exist separately, but co-dependent in a sense. Your mind can not exist without physical reality, but reality does exist without your mind. Psychosis is a seriously wide-spread problem. I know everyone likes to think their minds are infallable, perfect or otherwise in their complete control, but the vast array of mental disorders proves this wrong. I mean, I could be physically chopping wood in Vienna right now and I would never know the difference.

I'm not making any judgments on angelica's experience ... maybe it's real, maybe it's not, I really don't know ... but neither do you. Don't you think it's rather arrogant to say that because you haven't experienced something, or can't conceive of it, that it is therefore not real?

Also, I seriously doubt that there's anything on the wikipedia psychosis page that angelica doesn't already know. She's extremely well-read on such matters.

Ahnimus

hippiemom wrote:

I'm not making any judgments on angelica's experience ... maybe it's real, maybe it's not, I really don't know ... but neither do you. Don't you think it's rather arrogant to say that because you haven't experienced something, or can't conceive of it, that it is therefore not real?

Also, I seriously doubt that there's anything on the wikipedia psychosis page that angelica doesn't already know. She's extremely well-read on such matters.

I understand your concern and I certainly respect every individuals own perception of reality. Everyone is entitled to it.

I have had experiences that I could not explain. I would black-out for several minutes while performing actions I was unaware of and had no ability to recall. This was usually in a fit of rage, which is quite common in people. This is how the conscious mind disconnects it's awareness from reality in times of psychological stress. This is why I say that perhaps consciousness is a disadvantage of evolution, it's nothing but constant upkeep. Without our level of consciousness we would be similar to animals and in almost every aspect they are superior. They have no functions other than to eat, sleep, and procreate. They do not question themselves or others in the way that we do. They do not worry about their self-esteem and successfulness with potential mates. As Eddie sings in Rats, they don't compare. Our consciousness is the sole source of these trivial perceptions. We live in a constant state of imagination while performing our daily routines. This is because of our subjective consciousness and our very objective need to survive. It's a burden to our species for sure, but also a gift I suppose.

I'm just saying that it's not flawless realistically speaking. Everyone has some kind of psychotic episode or enhanced memory of an event. It's not abnormal, it's normal, but it should be taken into consideration when discussing reality. An experience does not constitute reality. I can provide you with all the sources of information anyone would need for this determination. Unless, of course they had existing perceptions that are unwavering.

Yea, not many people address these issues which is sickening. It's not discussed in fear of offending someone. But the reality is, so by leading a lie we are making it worse. We tell our kids to lie at a very young age with grandiose fantasies like the easter bunny and santa claus. When they find out all that is a lie, they blame their parents for being dishonest about the myths, but also for being dishonest about lying and most adults believe that a lie is sometimes acceptable. Do you see the cause and effect of culture upon generations upon generations. Culture is not reality, society is not reality. Those are things of ethics and spirituality, beliefs and moral codes. Science is the study of reality.

But, believe as you will, seek no information to alter your perceptions. Live life as a drone to the constant influences upon your decisions. Deciding not your fate, but having fate chosen for you and assisting others in their fate. All the while watching it unfold, unable to do anything about it. This simple understanding of cause and effect, puts those struggles at rest. Calmly we can monitor our lives and without suffering the imbalance of pride and envy or the disgust for other people. I will hold this fact as known and continue the journey to my fate, which is to accumulate and spread knowledge, as far as I can predict. I would be skeptical as well, of course, it's the natural thing to do. All I can suggest is to accumulate the knowledge of all scientific disciplines to discover reality. Because knowledge is understanding, knowledge is power.