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Free-Will

AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
edited December 2006 in A Moving Train
Doing some reasearch on Free-will while discussing in on the obesity thread. I've come across some interesting research, but I will start with a quote from Albert Einstein.

"I don’t believe in the freedom of the will. Schopenhauer’s saying, that a human can very well do what he wants, but can not will what he wants, accompanies me in all of life’s circumstances and reconciles me with the actions of humans, even when they are truly distressing. This knowledge of the non-freedom of the will protects me from losing my good humor and taking much too seriously myself and my fellow humans as acting and judging individuals."
~Albert Einstein
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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Comments

  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    A neuroscientific study performed by Benhamin Libit suggests no free-will:

    "Libet found that the unconscious brain activity leading up to the conscious decision by the subject to flick his or her wrist began approximately half a second before the subject consciously felt that she had decided to move."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will#Neuroscience_and_free_will
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    This, in and of itself, doesn't mean one's control over free will.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    "Related experiments showed that neurostimulation could affect which hands people move, even though the experience of free will was intact. Ammon and Gandevia found that it was possible to influence which hand people move by stimulating frontal regions that are involved in movement planning using transcranial magnetic stimulation in either the left or right hemisphere of the brain"
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Although these experiments are scientifically informative, I also find, at the same time, this line of reasoning is kind of fascistic, Mr. Ahnimus.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    Although these experiments are scientifically informative, I also find, at the same time, this line of reasoning is kind of fascistic, Mr. Ahnimus.

    How is it fascistic to suggest that our decisions are the result of a complex dynamical system as opposed to free-will, and that free-will is merely and illusion projected onto our conscious to make us aware of our actions and decisions?

    The issue I have is with the evolutionary nature of consciousness in this regard. Without free-will, I haven't found an advantage to being conscious.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • justamjustam Posts: 21,410
    It seems to me that the topic would be more interesting if one was focusing on a specific example. :)
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    justam wrote:
    It seems to me that the topic would be more interesting if one was focusing on a specific example. :)

    How do you mean?

    Murder, Rape, Racism, take your pick. This theory proposes that all of our actions are the result of a complex system within our brains and we do not make decisions dependant of our consciousness.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Ahnimus wrote:
    How is it fascistic to suggest that our decisions are the result of a complex dynamical system as opposed to free-will, and that free-will is merely and illusion projected onto our conscious to make us aware of our actions and decisions?

    The issue I have is with the evolutionary nature of consciousness in this regard. Without free-will, I haven't found an advantage to being conscious.

    Perhaps this is one of those evolutionary disadvantages.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    How is it fascistic to suggest that our decisions are the result of a complex dynamical system as opposed to free-will, and that free-will is merely and illusion projected onto our conscious to make us aware of our actions and decisions?

    The issue I have is with the evolutionary nature of consciousness in this regard. Without free-will, I haven't found an advantage to being conscious.


    If nothing else you're certainly honest. Thank you.

    Would it be incumbent upon you to ask instead, "i find no evolutionary advantage to being conscious."?
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • justamjustam Posts: 21,410
    Ahnimus wrote:
    How do you mean?

    Murder, Rape, Racism, take your pick. This theory proposes that all of our actions are the result of a complex system within our brains and we do not make decisions dependant of our consciousness.

    I think making a topic too general dilutes it to the point that it doesn't really have as much value.

    For example, if we were talking about murder...there are probably plenty of examples of people with poor impulse control that could be held up as good examples for a lack of free will...

    But actually, my own personal preference is to talk about something focused. I usually just find specifics more interesting. :)
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    See, the thing is, everything else operates independant of free-will. The earth revolves around the sun, the leaves turn brown in autumn. Absolutely everything happens independant of free-will, except us?

    Even animals display the same patterns, routines and characteristics. We can observe an animal long enough to predict it's actions, we can also predict peoples actions. This theory of Chaos explains things such as Deja Vu and Preminitions, because those events will happen based on specific criteria. If our brains are as powerful as is believed, processing 400 billion bits of information per second and we are only aware of 2000, perhaps are brains are telling us the future based on the deterministic nature of reality.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    justam wrote:
    I think making a topic too general dilutes it to the point that it doesn't really have as much value.

    For example, if we were talking about murder...there are probably plenty of examples of people with poor impulse control that could be held up as good examples for a lack of free will...

    But actually, my own personal preference is to talk about something focused. I usually just find specifics more interesting. :)

    Hmm, well, the problem lies in being specific. This is a universal constant. Looking at specifics is like cutting a line in half over and over, you never get to the end. You have to perceive the line as a whole.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • justamjustam Posts: 21,410
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Hmm, well, the problem lies in being specific. This is a universal constant. Looking at specifics is like cutting a line in half over and over, you never get to the end. You have to perceive the line as a whole.

    That's a pretty good response. :)
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    justam wrote:
    That's a pretty good response. :)

    Well, I could give you an example, I guess, but it's going to be rough.

    Two women, one's name is Laurana Bobbett...

    Both of these women's husbands cheat on them, but only Laurana decides to cut her husband's penis off, why?

    Why did she make that decision?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • justamjustam Posts: 21,410
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Well, I could give you an example, I guess, but it's going to be rough.

    Two women, one's name is Laurana Bobbett...

    Both of these women's husbands cheat on them, but only Laurana decides to cut her husband's penis off, why?

    Why did she make that decision?

    I don't know much about the story. Do you have a theory?
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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    ahnimus is one of those philosophical/spiritual/intellectual wayfarers that comes around. A kind of Johnny Appleseed. He plants good information, yet has no roots of his own. God Bless Ahnimus.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • justamjustam Posts: 21,410
    gue_barium wrote:
    ahnimus is one of those philosophical/spiritual/intellectual wayfarers that comes around. A kind of Johnny Appleseed. He plants good information, yet has no roots of his own. God Bless Ahnimus.

    :D This reads like a little bio under a photo. ;)
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    I've yet to hear any logical arguements supporting free-will. My guess, and also a result of my research thus far, is that there is none.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • justamjustam Posts: 21,410
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I've yet to hear any logical arguements supporting free-will. My guess, and also a result of my research thus far, is that there is none.

    I guess I'm just not in the mood to argue tonight. :)
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    I mean, if you guys have any faith in science.

    Using Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation, basically stimulating neurons non-invasively by a magnet, scientists can control what you do and you believe you made the choice.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • justamjustam Posts: 21,410
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I mean, if you guys have any faith in science.

    Using Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation, basically stimulating neurons non-invasively by a magnet, scientists can control what you do and you believe you made the choice.

    And yet, that sounds so hokey doesn't it? Like those old films of Russian spoon-benders.
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    justam wrote:
    And yet, that sounds so hokey doesn't it? Like those old films of Russian spoon-benders.

    Well, that was a film. But at the same time, Start Trek had those flat-panel LCD monitors that seemed pretty hokey 20 years ago.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    Are you into determinism?

    If one has no free will, does one have moral responsibility? Can't have one without the other.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    Ahnimus wrote:
    See, the thing is, everything else operates independant of free-will. The earth revolves around the sun, the leaves turn brown in autumn. Absolutely everything happens independant of free-will, except us?

    There are things which are unique to humans and therefor allow us to be free agents - among them intellect and volition or will.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    jeffbr wrote:
    Are you into determinism?

    If one has no free will, does one have moral responsibility? Can't have one without the other.

    I think morallity is subjective.

    I simply theorize that we are all machines, it is referred to as Hard Determinism.

    I was reading Chaos Theory earlier and I got into Cellular Automaton. I won't go into to many details, but it's actually believed that small fragments of machine code are generate where they have no purpose, but are relative to the instructional code. Almost like a level of awareness, this has led to much speculation of the consciousness of computers. Prior to reading that scientific research, I never considered machines having consciousness. But this theory is actually the basis for the movie "I, Robot" amazing how scientifically informed Sci-Fi writers are.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    jeffbr wrote:
    There are things which are unique to humans and therefor allow us to be free agents - among them intellect and volition or will.

    Where does intellect come from? Is it generated from absolute nothingness?

    What does will, intellect and volition depend on to make it so variable from person to person?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Free will is the hard-on that won't go away, and the passion of a wife leaning back over a wooden fence, not yours. Free will is sexual and surprising. It cripples the unwary, it fortifies the believers.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    Free will is the hard-on that won't go away, and the passion of a wife leaning back over a wooden fence, not yours. Free will is sexual and surprising. It cripples the unwary, it fortifies the believers.

    I thought that was Lust ;)
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Where does intellect come from? Is it generated from absolute nothingness?

    Irrelevant. Cognition exists in us.
    Ahnimus wrote:
    What does will, intellect and volition depend on to make it so variable from person to person?

    Reason, desire, perception.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • justamjustam Posts: 21,410
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I thought that was Lust ;)

    It is, but I can kind of see his point.
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