Free-Will

Ahnimus

Doing some reasearch on Free-will while discussing in on the obesity thread. I've come across some interesting research, but I will start with a quote from Albert Einstein.

"I don’t believe in the freedom of the will. Schopenhauer’s saying, that a human can very well do what he wants, but can not will what he wants, accompanies me in all of life’s circumstances and reconciles me with the actions of humans, even when they are truly distressing. This knowledge of the non-freedom of the will protects me from losing my good humor and taking much too seriously myself and my fellow humans as acting and judging individuals."
~Albert Einstein

Ahnimus

A neuroscientific study performed by Benhamin Libit suggests no free-will:

"Libet found that the unconscious brain activity leading up to the conscious decision by the subject to flick his or her wrist began approximately half a second before the subject consciously felt that she had decided to move."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will#Neuroscience_and_free_will

gue_barium

This, in and of itself, doesn't mean one's control over free will.

Ahnimus

"Related experiments showed that neurostimulation could affect which hands people move, even though the experience of free will was intact. Ammon and Gandevia found that it was possible to influence which hand people move by stimulating frontal regions that are involved in movement planning using transcranial magnetic stimulation in either the left or right hemisphere of the brain"

gue_barium

Although these experiments are scientifically informative, I also find, at the same time, this line of reasoning is kind of fascistic, Mr. Ahnimus.

Ahnimus

gue_barium wrote:

Although these experiments are scientifically informative, I also find, at the same time, this line of reasoning is kind of fascistic, Mr. Ahnimus.

How is it fascistic to suggest that our decisions are the result of a complex dynamical system as opposed to free-will, and that free-will is merely and illusion projected onto our conscious to make us aware of our actions and decisions?

The issue I have is with the evolutionary nature of consciousness in this regard. Without free-will, I haven't found an advantage to being conscious.

justam

It seems to me that the topic would be more interesting if one was focusing on a specific example.

Ahnimus

justam wrote:

It seems to me that the topic would be more interesting if one was focusing on a specific example.

How do you mean?

Murder, Rape, Racism, take your pick. This theory proposes that all of our actions are the result of a complex system within our brains and we do not make decisions dependant of our consciousness.

Ahnimus

Ahnimus wrote:

How is it fascistic to suggest that our decisions are the result of a complex dynamical system as opposed to free-will, and that free-will is merely and illusion projected onto our conscious to make us aware of our actions and decisions?

The issue I have is with the evolutionary nature of consciousness in this regard. Without free-will, I haven't found an advantage to being conscious.

Perhaps this is one of those evolutionary disadvantages.

gue_barium

Ahnimus wrote:

How is it fascistic to suggest that our decisions are the result of a complex dynamical system as opposed to free-will, and that free-will is merely and illusion projected onto our conscious to make us aware of our actions and decisions?

The issue I have is with the evolutionary nature of consciousness in this regard. Without free-will, I haven't found an advantage to being conscious.

If nothing else you're certainly honest. Thank you.

Would it be incumbent upon you to ask instead, "i find no evolutionary advantage to being conscious."?

justam

Ahnimus wrote:

How do you mean?

Murder, Rape, Racism, take your pick. This theory proposes that all of our actions are the result of a complex system within our brains and we do not make decisions dependant of our consciousness.

I think making a topic too general dilutes it to the point that it doesn't really have as much value.

For example, if we were talking about murder...there are probably plenty of examples of people with poor impulse control that could be held up as good examples for a lack of free will...

But actually, my own personal preference is to talk about something focused. I usually just find specifics more interesting.

Ahnimus

See, the thing is, everything else operates independant of free-will. The earth revolves around the sun, the leaves turn brown in autumn. Absolutely everything happens independant of free-will, except us?

Even animals display the same patterns, routines and characteristics. We can observe an animal long enough to predict it's actions, we can also predict peoples actions. This theory of Chaos explains things such as Deja Vu and Preminitions, because those events will happen based on specific criteria. If our brains are as powerful as is believed, processing 400 billion bits of information per second and we are only aware of 2000, perhaps are brains are telling us the future based on the deterministic nature of reality.

Ahnimus

justam wrote:

I think making a topic too general dilutes it to the point that it doesn't really have as much value.

For example, if we were talking about murder...there are probably plenty of examples of people with poor impulse control that could be held up as good examples for a lack of free will...

But actually, my own personal preference is to talk about something focused. I usually just find specifics more interesting.

Hmm, well, the problem lies in being specific. This is a universal constant. Looking at specifics is like cutting a line in half over and over, you never get to the end. You have to perceive the line as a whole.

justam

Ahnimus wrote:

Hmm, well, the problem lies in being specific. This is a universal constant. Looking at specifics is like cutting a line in half over and over, you never get to the end. You have to perceive the line as a whole.

That's a pretty good response.

Ahnimus

justam wrote:

That's a pretty good response.

Well, I could give you an example, I guess, but it's going to be rough.

Two women, one's name is Laurana Bobbett...

Both of these women's husbands cheat on them, but only Laurana decides to cut her husband's penis off, why?

Why did she make that decision?

justam

Ahnimus wrote:

Well, I could give you an example, I guess, but it's going to be rough.

Two women, one's name is Laurana Bobbett...

Both of these women's husbands cheat on them, but only Laurana decides to cut her husband's penis off, why?

Why did she make that decision?

I don't know much about the story. Do you have a theory?

gue_barium

ahnimus is one of those philosophical/spiritual/intellectual wayfarers that comes around. A kind of Johnny Appleseed. He plants good information, yet has no roots of his own. God Bless Ahnimus.

justam

gue_barium wrote:

ahnimus is one of those philosophical/spiritual/intellectual wayfarers that comes around. A kind of Johnny Appleseed. He plants good information, yet has no roots of his own. God Bless Ahnimus.

This reads like a little bio under a photo.

Ahnimus

I've yet to hear any logical arguements supporting free-will. My guess, and also a result of my research thus far, is that there is none.

justam

Ahnimus wrote:

I've yet to hear any logical arguements supporting free-will. My guess, and also a result of my research thus far, is that there is none.

I guess I'm just not in the mood to argue tonight.

Ahnimus

I mean, if you guys have any faith in science.

Using Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation, basically stimulating neurons non-invasively by a magnet, scientists can control what you do and you believe you made the choice.