Free-Will

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  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    farfromglorified wrote:
    The further you explore this the further you'll realize that both free-will'ers and determinists hit a logical brick wall. The problem is that both arguments require their core concepts to be self-evident, which in turn can make either very attractive because they can then in turn explain anything.

    I'm a pretty hard-core free-will'er. But that doesn't mean I'll discount the possibility of a deterministic universe (including the "choices" people make). However, a hard deterministic viewpoint requires a complete shift in how you view the actions of men, particularly within a social context. And too often deterministic philosophies are used for the sole purpose of control. Neither of those facts disprove determinism in any way, however.

    I'm not interested in controlling anyway, simply understanding them.

    The major difference between determinism and free-will as far as hitting a brick wall goes. With determinism I have to try to find all the little tiny underlying micro-influences that make up on big influence that ultimately results in a choice. Which is highly improbable in most cases, for their are myriad little variables to go into choice. A meist or free-willer simply needs to assert that he/she "ade the choice" and make no further attempt at explaining it. With further implications that it can not be explained. The brick wall meism hits is explaining just what free-will is and where it comes from. Which is why they assert that it can not be, for no reasons apparent to us.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I'm not interested in controlling anyway, simply understanding them.

    Cool.
    The major difference between determinism and free-will as far as hitting a brick wall goes. With determinism I have to try to find all the little tiny underlying micro-influences that make up on big influence that ultimately results in a choice.

    Well, yes. That's difficult. But you face a bigger problem:

    You have to prove that no other outcome was possible.
    A meist or free-willer simply needs to assert that he/she "ade the choice" and make no further attempt at explaining it. With further implications that it can not be explained. The brick wall meism hits is explaining just what free-will is and where it comes from. Which is why they assert that it can not be, for no reasons apparent to us.

    That goes both ways. I mean, you're guilty of doing that throughout this thread when you simply tie everything back to deterministic factors. Again, it's a self-evidency which, in both cases, is based on nothing more than faith.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Cool.

    Well, yes. That's difficult. But you face a bigger problem:

    You have to prove that no other outcome was possible.

    That goes both ways. I mean, you're guilty of doing that throughout this thread when you simply tie everything back to deterministic factors. Again, it's a self-evidency which, in both cases, is based on nothing more than faith.

    Yea, ok, but deterministic factors is the point. I can quantify this mathematically.

    A + B = (A + B)

    Without knowing what A and B are, the only answer is A + B. That does not mean A and B do not exist. However, we can infer this.

    ∞ ≡ Everything

    And that works for me :)
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire

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