Karma - Believe it or Not?

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

but isn't karma a soul thing? once the soul departs one body and enters another, it takes with it either the good or bad karma accumulated in the previous 'life'.

i feel, if someone is rude to me, my decision to either ignore their behaviour or respond to it in kind has nothing to do with karma and everything to do with manners and temperament.

Ultimately, I guess Karma is a balance between forces, no matter what. So even if you die and are reincarnated you carry that baggage with you.

It's quite the stretch, in my opinion. It could be that since Buddhists follow determinism that this was a means to force people to rationally deliberate. A lot of determinist papers I've read suggest realizing determinism whilst still living with a free-will illusion to force people to rationally deliberate. It's not needed, in my opinion, one can still realize determinism and even predeterminism while rationally deliberating, I do it all the time, I just do it on a deeper level, in my opinion.

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

Ultimately, I guess Karma is a balance between forces, no matter what. So even if you die and are reincarnated you carry that baggage with you.

It's quite the stretch, in my opinion. It could be that since Buddhists follow determinism that this was a means to force people to rationally deliberate. A lot of determinist papers I've read suggest realizing determinism whilst still living with a free-will illusion to force people to rationally deliberate. It's not needed, in my opinion, one can still realize determinism and even predeterminism while rationally deliberating, I do it all the time, I just do it on a deeper level, in my opinion.

it's the soul that is 'reincarnated'. once the physical you dies, the spiritual you (soul) must find a new home.
so it really is what matters is on the inside. the pretty packaging means nothing.

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

it's the soul that is 'reincarnated'. once the physical you dies, the spiritual you (soul) must find a new home.
so it really is what matters is on the inside. the pretty packaging means nothing.

Yea, but you have to first have faith in spirituality. Personally, I have no inclination to believe I have a soul.

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

Yea, but you have to first have faith in spirituality. Personally, I have no inclination to believe I have a soul.

wow, really?
so you think you're what? just a physical being?
even as an atheist i have a sense of my having what is commonly called a soul.

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

wow, really?
so you think you're what? just a physical being?
even as an atheist i have a sense of my having what is commonly called a soul.

Yup, I'm just like every other creature on the planet. I'm no different than E. Coli in that sense.

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

Yup, I'm just like every other creature on the planet. I'm no different than E. Coli in that sense.

interesting that you think that 'every other creature on the planet' is devoid of a soul.

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

interesting that you think that 'every other creature on the planet' is devoid of a soul.

What is the basis for a soul? How does that belief exist?

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

What is the basis for a soul? How does that belief exist?

i think it's more a sense. maybe an essence. for me it is the core of my very being. everything i do and say and everything i feel comes from this one place. i don't know how this 'belief' exists. but i think that without it i would be amoral and an empty shell. i would be unanswerable to the one person that matters. and that is myself. i am my own God, for want of a better word.
and i feel that without this essence of a soul i would cease to exist.

girljam

a few good books to read about good karma disguised as bad karma is
KARMA BURNS and KARMA BURNS vol. numero dos.

searchlightsoul

Ahnimus wrote:

That's totally false.

I just watched a documentary with evolutionary biologists saying the opposite.

As an example, they explained how Humans and Dolphins came from completely separate genetic roots but developed very similar brains. That implies there is more method to evolution than we know.

The universe works on deterministic principles, there is no randomness to it.

Unfortunately for you my friend it is not and I have Stephen J. Gould and Richard Dawkin to back me up. Genes assorting randomly is a basic tenent of biology. Most high school students have at some stage used a punnet sqaure to work out the probablity of a certain genetic combination. The well documented case of genetic drift refutes your out dated notion of a deterministic universe. As does the unpredictability of weather, climate and the electron cloud around an atom. The example you provide is a case of convergent evolution which indicates that similar selective pressures existed in both humans and dolphins to produce large brains but supports no notion of determinism. But in order for selection to function their must be variability in a populations genetic make-up which arises always from the random assortment of genes during meiosis. No determinism here.

Ahnimus

searchlightsoul wrote:

Unfortunately for you my firend it is not and I have Stephen J. Gould and Richard Dawkin to back me up. Genes assorting randomly is a basic tenent of biology. Most high school students have at some stage used a punnet sqaure to work out the probablity of a certain genetic combination. The well documented case of genetic drift refutes your out dated notion of a deterministic universe. As does the unpredictability of weather, climate and the electron cloud around an atom. The example you provide is a case of convergent evolution which indicates that similar selective pressures existed in both humans and dolphins to produce large brains but supports no notion of determinism. But in order for selection to function their must be variability in a populations genetic make-up which arises always from the random assortment of genes during meiosis. No determinism here.

That's because you don't know how that stuff occurs. You just see it as random, like rolling dice. There is a method, however, you've yet to find it. As Niels Bohr is quoted “How wonderful that we have met with a paradox. Now we have some hope of making progress.”. Random behavior is really a paradox. How is it at all possible?

midgey

i do love that word..

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

i think it's more a sense. maybe an essence. for me it is the core of my very being. everything i do and say and everything i feel comes from this one place. i don't know how this 'belief' exists. but i think that without it i would be amoral and an empty shell. i would be unanswerable to the one person that matters. and that is myself. i am my own God, for want of a better word.
and i feel that without this essence of a soul i would cease to exist.

It certainly devalues life. Not having a soul. Life basically doesn't mean much in the long run. I still do the same things everyone else does and I enjoy life. But I don't have a soul. I have no plans to continue on after my expiration. In fact, if there was anything else, I would be disappointed. Who wants to live forever anyway? Seems like a major bore. What if I end up drifting through the vast reaches of space and all I get is to look at stars for eternity? What do I do then? Or will I transcend to a constant state of tranquility for eternity. What's that going to feel like that I will actually want it for eternity?

Eternity is a long long time, it's forever, never-ending. I want an end, I want it to stop at some point. Mission Accomplished, sort of thing. To me, the only thing that I could actually enjoy and tolerate for eternity, is non-existence. I would have no sensation, no desire, no habituation to stimuli, nothing, absolute zero, complete and absolute peace.

searchlightsoul

Ahnimus wrote:

That's because you don't know how that stuff occurs. You just see it as random, like rolling dice. There is a method, however, you've yet to find it. As Niels Bohr is quoted “How wonderful that we have met with a paradox. Now we have some hope of making progress.”. Random behavior is really a paradox. How is it at all possible?

Your thinking is flawed. We do know how meiosis works-we can watch it happen. The mixing of genetic material is random and observable. There are no laws and it has nothing to do with human inadequecies or perspectives. Don't use some quote by Niels Bohr as you cover, he was the father of quantumn mechanics not of deterministic 16th century science.

If you are uncomfortable with the consequences of a random universe than that is your problem but it in no way changes how the universe functions.

brain of c

your karma ran over my dogma.

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

It certainly devalues life. Not having a soul. Life basically doesn't mean much in the long run. I still do the same things everyone else does and I enjoy life. But I don't have a soul. I have no plans to continue on after my expiration. In fact, if there was anything else, I would be disappointed. Who wants to live forever anyway? Seems like a major bore. What if I end up drifting through the vast reaches of space and all I get is to look at stars for eternity? What do I do then? Or will I transcend to a constant state of tranquility for eternity. What's that going to feel like that I will actually want it for eternity?

Eternity is a long long time, it's forever, never-ending. I want an end, I want it to stop at some point. Mission Accomplished, sort of thing. To me, the only thing that I could actually enjoy and tolerate for eternity, is non-existence. I would have no sensation, no desire, no habituation to stimuli, nothing, absolute zero, complete and absolute peace.

is that not what is called death?

while i feel i am in possession of a soul, i do not believe that it makes for an eternal existence. to me it only has one lifetime and will die with my physical body. i do not believe in reincarnation.
life is what you make it ahnimus you know that. or maybe being a determinist you don't. but i guess it is enough that you say you enjoy life. if on your deathbed you say you had a good time, then there is no loss there, is there?

Ahnimus

searchlightsoul wrote:

Your thinking is flawed. We do know how meiosis works-we can watch it happen. The mixing of genetic material is random and observable. There are no laws and it has nothing to do with human inadequecies or perspectives. Don't use some quote by Niels Bohr as you cover, he was the father of quantumn mechanics not of deterministic 16th century science.

If you are uncomfortable with the consequences of a random universe than that is your problem but it in no way changes how the universe functions.

Weather is chaotic. The term the "butterfly effect", refers to what would happen if a butterfly flapped it's wings over Australia, it could theoretically cause a tornado in Texas. Small changes in the atmosphere have huge effects in different areas. That makes it hard to predict. So it's done with a probability distribution. The same method used for things you are talking about, seemingly random things.. A few simple rules can create such random occurrences, but they still have a system and are therefor determined. A set of laws that governs behavior is ultimately determined to act on those laws.

The other thing to consider is the holographic universe theory. You can cut up a line so small that you can't see it, but it's still there. We may need much more superior technology to really get to the bottom of meiosis, then we will find another incomprehensible thing, which we will also find probabilities and laws and other determining forces. The only things in nature that are not determined are those we don't fully understand.

Ahnimus

catefrances wrote:

is that not what is called death?

while i feel i am in possession of a soul, i do not believe that it makes for an eternal existence. to me it only has one lifetime and will die with my physical body. i do not believe in reincarnation.
life is what you make it ahnimus you know that. or maybe being a determinist you don't. but i guess it is enough that you say you enjoy life. if on your deathbed you say you had a good time, then there is no loss there, is there?

No, there is no loss. I won't be disappointed. Shit, I won't even know what I was.

I just see consciousness as a product of the brain. Everything we feel, see, hear, smell and taste is the result of our nervous system. They are conscious experiences that can not be possible without one of several parts. All of our experiences are dependent on and determined by our ability to sense them. Our ability to rationally deliberate is dependent on and determined by a database of knowledge/experience and our emotional situation. We are not just like computers, because we have no software, we just have logic circuits, billions and billions of them. We store our percepts in the brain and reference them when needed. We make a deliberation and store it, so we don't have to do it again. So someone can ask me, "do you believe in God?", and I can immediately respond "No", without having to think about it. From the very beginning of life we create and store percepts, compound them, encapsulate them and create a nice little package called a character.

And it's far more chaotic than the atmosphere, the actual number of determinants that have played on even a teenagers life are in the quadrabillion gazillion tetragillion zillion bavillions, or something like that.

searchlightsoul

Okay look I am not going to argue with someone who sustains that rolling a dice is not a random process! You quote a vague example and then run and hide behind "we can never percieve it, out technology is to primitive". If you keep running back to this idea then ultimately your own perception of what is determined is also confounded.

The butterfly may contribute to the weather but its actions alone do not determine the result. At any stage of our evolution for example an event could have occured which prevented our eventual appearance. We were not destined to appear, that is an egocentric view-we are here by chance.

Intesrestingly evolutionary theory offers a firm basis for the idea of Kharma under some circumstances where individuals reciprocate with one another.

Kushikushun

Referring to my signature.