but isn't karma a soul thing? once the soul departs one body and enters another, it takes with it either the good or bad karma accumulated in the previous 'life'.
i feel, if someone is rude to me, my decision to either ignore their behaviour or respond to it in kind has nothing to do with karma and everything to do with manners and temperament.
Ultimately, I guess Karma is a balance between forces, no matter what. So even if you die and are reincarnated you carry that baggage with you.
It's quite the stretch, in my opinion. It could be that since Buddhists follow determinism that this was a means to force people to rationally deliberate. A lot of determinist papers I've read suggest realizing determinism whilst still living with a free-will illusion to force people to rationally deliberate. It's not needed, in my opinion, one can still realize determinism and even predeterminism while rationally deliberating, I do it all the time, I just do it on a deeper level, in my opinion.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Ultimately, I guess Karma is a balance between forces, no matter what. So even if you die and are reincarnated you carry that baggage with you.
It's quite the stretch, in my opinion. It could be that since Buddhists follow determinism that this was a means to force people to rationally deliberate. A lot of determinist papers I've read suggest realizing determinism whilst still living with a free-will illusion to force people to rationally deliberate. It's not needed, in my opinion, one can still realize determinism and even predeterminism while rationally deliberating, I do it all the time, I just do it on a deeper level, in my opinion.
it's the soul that is 'reincarnated'. once the physical you dies, the spiritual you (soul) must find a new home.
so it really is what matters is on the inside. the pretty packaging means nothing.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
it's the soul that is 'reincarnated'. once the physical you dies, the spiritual you (soul) must find a new home.
so it really is what matters is on the inside. the pretty packaging means nothing.
Yea, but you have to first have faith in spirituality. Personally, I have no inclination to believe I have a soul.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
wow, really?
so you think you're what? just a physical being?
even as an atheist i have a sense of my having what is commonly called a soul.
Yup, I'm just like every other creature on the planet. I'm no different than E. Coli in that sense.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
interesting that you think that 'every other creature on the planet' is devoid of a soul.
What is the basis for a soul? How does that belief exist?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
What is the basis for a soul? How does that belief exist?
i think it's more a sense. maybe an essence. for me it is the core of my very being. everything i do and say and everything i feel comes from this one place. i don't know how this 'belief' exists. but i think that without it i would be amoral and an empty shell. i would be unanswerable to the one person that matters. and that is myself. i am my own God, for want of a better word.
and i feel that without this essence of a soul i would cease to exist.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I just watched a documentary with evolutionary biologists saying the opposite.
As an example, they explained how Humans and Dolphins came from completely separate genetic roots but developed very similar brains. That implies there is more method to evolution than we know.
The universe works on deterministic principles, there is no randomness to it.
Unfortunately for you my friend it is not and I have Stephen J. Gould and Richard Dawkin to back me up. Genes assorting randomly is a basic tenent of biology. Most high school students have at some stage used a punnet sqaure to work out the probablity of a certain genetic combination. The well documented case of genetic drift refutes your out dated notion of a deterministic universe. As does the unpredictability of weather, climate and the electron cloud around an atom. The example you provide is a case of convergent evolution which indicates that similar selective pressures existed in both humans and dolphins to produce large brains but supports no notion of determinism. But in order for selection to function their must be variability in a populations genetic make-up which arises always from the random assortment of genes during meiosis. No determinism here.
Unfortunately for you my firend it is not and I have Stephen J. Gould and Richard Dawkin to back me up. Genes assorting randomly is a basic tenent of biology. Most high school students have at some stage used a punnet sqaure to work out the probablity of a certain genetic combination. The well documented case of genetic drift refutes your out dated notion of a deterministic universe. As does the unpredictability of weather, climate and the electron cloud around an atom. The example you provide is a case of convergent evolution which indicates that similar selective pressures existed in both humans and dolphins to produce large brains but supports no notion of determinism. But in order for selection to function their must be variability in a populations genetic make-up which arises always from the random assortment of genes during meiosis. No determinism here.
That's because you don't know how that stuff occurs. You just see it as random, like rolling dice. There is a method, however, you've yet to find it. As Niels Bohr is quoted “How wonderful that we have met with a paradox. Now we have some hope of making progress.”. Random behavior is really a paradox. How is it at all possible?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
i think it's more a sense. maybe an essence. for me it is the core of my very being. everything i do and say and everything i feel comes from this one place. i don't know how this 'belief' exists. but i think that without it i would be amoral and an empty shell. i would be unanswerable to the one person that matters. and that is myself. i am my own God, for want of a better word.
and i feel that without this essence of a soul i would cease to exist.
It certainly devalues life. Not having a soul. Life basically doesn't mean much in the long run. I still do the same things everyone else does and I enjoy life. But I don't have a soul. I have no plans to continue on after my expiration. In fact, if there was anything else, I would be disappointed. Who wants to live forever anyway? Seems like a major bore. What if I end up drifting through the vast reaches of space and all I get is to look at stars for eternity? What do I do then? Or will I transcend to a constant state of tranquility for eternity. What's that going to feel like that I will actually want it for eternity?
Eternity is a long long time, it's forever, never-ending. I want an end, I want it to stop at some point. Mission Accomplished, sort of thing. To me, the only thing that I could actually enjoy and tolerate for eternity, is non-existence. I would have no sensation, no desire, no habituation to stimuli, nothing, absolute zero, complete and absolute peace.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
That's because you don't know how that stuff occurs. You just see it as random, like rolling dice. There is a method, however, you've yet to find it. As Niels Bohr is quoted “How wonderful that we have met with a paradox. Now we have some hope of making progress.”. Random behavior is really a paradox. How is it at all possible?
Your thinking is flawed. We do know how meiosis works-we can watch it happen. The mixing of genetic material is random and observable. There are no laws and it has nothing to do with human inadequecies or perspectives. Don't use some quote by Niels Bohr as you cover, he was the father of quantumn mechanics not of deterministic 16th century science.
If you are uncomfortable with the consequences of a random universe than that is your problem but it in no way changes how the universe functions.
It certainly devalues life. Not having a soul. Life basically doesn't mean much in the long run. I still do the same things everyone else does and I enjoy life. But I don't have a soul. I have no plans to continue on after my expiration. In fact, if there was anything else, I would be disappointed. Who wants to live forever anyway? Seems like a major bore. What if I end up drifting through the vast reaches of space and all I get is to look at stars for eternity? What do I do then? Or will I transcend to a constant state of tranquility for eternity. What's that going to feel like that I will actually want it for eternity?
Eternity is a long long time, it's forever, never-ending. I want an end, I want it to stop at some point. Mission Accomplished, sort of thing. To me, the only thing that I could actually enjoy and tolerate for eternity, is non-existence. I would have no sensation, no desire, no habituation to stimuli, nothing, absolute zero, complete and absolute peace.
is that not what is called death?
while i feel i am in possession of a soul, i do not believe that it makes for an eternal existence. to me it only has one lifetime and will die with my physical body. i do not believe in reincarnation.
life is what you make it ahnimus you know that. or maybe being a determinist you don't. but i guess it is enough that you say you enjoy life. if on your deathbed you say you had a good time, then there is no loss there, is there?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Your thinking is flawed. We do know how meiosis works-we can watch it happen. The mixing of genetic material is random and observable. There are no laws and it has nothing to do with human inadequecies or perspectives. Don't use some quote by Niels Bohr as you cover, he was the father of quantumn mechanics not of deterministic 16th century science.
If you are uncomfortable with the consequences of a random universe than that is your problem but it in no way changes how the universe functions.
Weather is chaotic. The term the "butterfly effect", refers to what would happen if a butterfly flapped it's wings over Australia, it could theoretically cause a tornado in Texas. Small changes in the atmosphere have huge effects in different areas. That makes it hard to predict. So it's done with a probability distribution. The same method used for things you are talking about, seemingly random things.. A few simple rules can create such random occurrences, but they still have a system and are therefor determined. A set of laws that governs behavior is ultimately determined to act on those laws.
The other thing to consider is the holographic universe theory. You can cut up a line so small that you can't see it, but it's still there. We may need much more superior technology to really get to the bottom of meiosis, then we will find another incomprehensible thing, which we will also find probabilities and laws and other determining forces. The only things in nature that are not determined are those we don't fully understand.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
while i feel i am in possession of a soul, i do not believe that it makes for an eternal existence. to me it only has one lifetime and will die with my physical body. i do not believe in reincarnation.
life is what you make it ahnimus you know that. or maybe being a determinist you don't. but i guess it is enough that you say you enjoy life. if on your deathbed you say you had a good time, then there is no loss there, is there?
No, there is no loss. I won't be disappointed. Shit, I won't even know what I was.
I just see consciousness as a product of the brain. Everything we feel, see, hear, smell and taste is the result of our nervous system. They are conscious experiences that can not be possible without one of several parts. All of our experiences are dependent on and determined by our ability to sense them. Our ability to rationally deliberate is dependent on and determined by a database of knowledge/experience and our emotional situation. We are not just like computers, because we have no software, we just have logic circuits, billions and billions of them. We store our percepts in the brain and reference them when needed. We make a deliberation and store it, so we don't have to do it again. So someone can ask me, "do you believe in God?", and I can immediately respond "No", without having to think about it. From the very beginning of life we create and store percepts, compound them, encapsulate them and create a nice little package called a character.
And it's far more chaotic than the atmosphere, the actual number of determinants that have played on even a teenagers life are in the quadrabillion gazillion tetragillion zillion bavillions, or something like that.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Okay look I am not going to argue with someone who sustains that rolling a dice is not a random process! You quote a vague example and then run and hide behind "we can never percieve it, out technology is to primitive". If you keep running back to this idea then ultimately your own perception of what is determined is also confounded.
The butterfly may contribute to the weather but its actions alone do not determine the result. At any stage of our evolution for example an event could have occured which prevented our eventual appearance. We were not destined to appear, that is an egocentric view-we are here by chance.
Intesrestingly evolutionary theory offers a firm basis for the idea of Kharma under some circumstances where individuals reciprocate with one another.
Ahnimus I find your arguments tempting and I also can struggle with these thoughts. I feel that it is a struggle between what I think and what I feel...luckily there is also something that I KNOW. And that takes me away from the path of determinism. Cant explain why, but it definitely does. It has nothing to do with belief, its more complicated than that. Thats why I reffered to my signature in the other post...everything is nothing and nothing is everything.
I also liked the Wikipedia explanation:
Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done, is currently doing and will do. The results or "fruits" of actions are called karma-phala. Karma is not about retribution, vengeance, punishment or reward. Karma simply deals with what is. The effects of all deeds actively create past, present and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life, and the pain and joy it brings to others.
I do not think that Buddhism is deterministic however. Its just saying that you create your path although everything you do or have done paves it.
Just a question; if everything is determined...why is it? Why was this path laid out then? ..this leads to the question.. where does it all start?
These questions are way tooooo big for little me, so I just take it one step at a time and... enjoy the way on my way!
Hope you all do too!
Why not be mediocre and be the best at it that you can be?
It certainly devalues life. Not having a soul. Life basically doesn't mean much in the long run. I still do the same things everyone else does and I enjoy life. But I don't have a soul. I have no plans to continue on after my expiration. In fact, if there was anything else, I would be disappointed. Who wants to live forever anyway? Seems like a major bore. What if I end up drifting through the vast reaches of space and all I get is to look at stars for eternity? What do I do then? Or will I transcend to a constant state of tranquility for eternity. What's that going to feel like that I will actually want it for eternity?
Eternity is a long long time, it's forever, never-ending. I want an end, I want it to stop at some point. Mission Accomplished, sort of thing. To me, the only thing that I could actually enjoy and tolerate for eternity, is non-existence. I would have no sensation, no desire, no habituation to stimuli, nothing, absolute zero, complete and absolute peace.
Ahnimus would you consider that your being, your brain, your body, all the sum total of your experience so far, who you are, is completely unique from that of any other human being on the planet? That when your body dies, and along with it your brain, all of that uniqueness will be lost. Gone to the world forever. Could this not be considered a soul of sorts? For want of a better word. Do you not agree that no two human beings are alike. That we are all individual by both nurture and nature and life experience and that this cannot be duplicated exactly? Not even in twins.
Karma debts is a good explanation for different and logically inexplicable(suprisingly good and amazing or toxic and exhausting and so on))relations with others.The balance must be kept,if not in this life ,will come back in another.Karma theory is quite convincing.But all we know is ... nothing.Greetings!
There is a reason why people who fuck others over, seem to always be looking over their shoulder.
Just like telling a lie. You either have to live up to it forever, or you look like a fool.
Kind of like always looking for the most beautiful girl and then all you friends think your wife is the ugliest woman they have ever seen.
That thing named Karma will indeed find a way to creep back into your life. Even if it only is a small thing that only you realise happened. It will be there. Of course if I were a religious person I would say it is god getting you back.
Then again there is always Murphy's Law to worry about.
If such a thing as karma really existed, humanity would be much more balanced than it is.
That's the truth, we are going to need the next 2000 or so years of eutopia to make up for the past.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I'd like to believe it. While I believe what goes around comes around, bad things still happen to good people. But not always. Life doesn't work like that.
That is right, except there are no detours. Every detour you take was predetermined, therefor it's not a detour.
If you could rewind time and watch it on a big screen, when you hit play everything would play out exactly the same way it did the first time.
"If I knew then what I know now."
Then you would have made a different choice, but seeing as you knew then what you knew then, you made the best choice you knew how. If you rewind time, you have to undo what you know now, so going back to that point in time, you are left with the same things you knew then and you won't know what you know now. Your screwed.
man i'm glad this isn't true with me
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
So, you can travel through time, retaining your current knowledge and changing the decisions you've made?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
Ultimately, I guess Karma is a balance between forces, no matter what. So even if you die and are reincarnated you carry that baggage with you.
It's quite the stretch, in my opinion. It could be that since Buddhists follow determinism that this was a means to force people to rationally deliberate. A lot of determinist papers I've read suggest realizing determinism whilst still living with a free-will illusion to force people to rationally deliberate. It's not needed, in my opinion, one can still realize determinism and even predeterminism while rationally deliberating, I do it all the time, I just do it on a deeper level, in my opinion.
it's the soul that is 'reincarnated'. once the physical you dies, the spiritual you (soul) must find a new home.
so it really is what matters is on the inside. the pretty packaging means nothing.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Yea, but you have to first have faith in spirituality. Personally, I have no inclination to believe I have a soul.
wow, really?
so you think you're what? just a physical being?
even as an atheist i have a sense of my having what is commonly called a soul.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Yup, I'm just like every other creature on the planet. I'm no different than E. Coli in that sense.
interesting that you think that 'every other creature on the planet' is devoid of a soul.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
What is the basis for a soul? How does that belief exist?
i think it's more a sense. maybe an essence. for me it is the core of my very being. everything i do and say and everything i feel comes from this one place. i don't know how this 'belief' exists. but i think that without it i would be amoral and an empty shell. i would be unanswerable to the one person that matters. and that is myself. i am my own God, for want of a better word.
and i feel that without this essence of a soul i would cease to exist.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
KARMA BURNS and KARMA BURNS vol. numero dos.
Unfortunately for you my friend it is not and I have Stephen J. Gould and Richard Dawkin to back me up. Genes assorting randomly is a basic tenent of biology. Most high school students have at some stage used a punnet sqaure to work out the probablity of a certain genetic combination. The well documented case of genetic drift refutes your out dated notion of a deterministic universe. As does the unpredictability of weather, climate and the electron cloud around an atom. The example you provide is a case of convergent evolution which indicates that similar selective pressures existed in both humans and dolphins to produce large brains but supports no notion of determinism. But in order for selection to function their must be variability in a populations genetic make-up which arises always from the random assortment of genes during meiosis. No determinism here.
That's because you don't know how that stuff occurs. You just see it as random, like rolling dice. There is a method, however, you've yet to find it. As Niels Bohr is quoted “How wonderful that we have met with a paradox. Now we have some hope of making progress.”. Random behavior is really a paradox. How is it at all possible?
It certainly devalues life. Not having a soul. Life basically doesn't mean much in the long run. I still do the same things everyone else does and I enjoy life. But I don't have a soul. I have no plans to continue on after my expiration. In fact, if there was anything else, I would be disappointed. Who wants to live forever anyway? Seems like a major bore. What if I end up drifting through the vast reaches of space and all I get is to look at stars for eternity? What do I do then? Or will I transcend to a constant state of tranquility for eternity. What's that going to feel like that I will actually want it for eternity?
Eternity is a long long time, it's forever, never-ending. I want an end, I want it to stop at some point. Mission Accomplished, sort of thing. To me, the only thing that I could actually enjoy and tolerate for eternity, is non-existence. I would have no sensation, no desire, no habituation to stimuli, nothing, absolute zero, complete and absolute peace.
Your thinking is flawed. We do know how meiosis works-we can watch it happen. The mixing of genetic material is random and observable. There are no laws and it has nothing to do with human inadequecies or perspectives. Don't use some quote by Niels Bohr as you cover, he was the father of quantumn mechanics not of deterministic 16th century science.
If you are uncomfortable with the consequences of a random universe than that is your problem but it in no way changes how the universe functions.
http://www.myspace.com/brain_of_c
is that not what is called death?
while i feel i am in possession of a soul, i do not believe that it makes for an eternal existence. to me it only has one lifetime and will die with my physical body. i do not believe in reincarnation.
life is what you make it ahnimus you know that. or maybe being a determinist you don't. but i guess it is enough that you say you enjoy life. if on your deathbed you say you had a good time, then there is no loss there, is there?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Weather is chaotic. The term the "butterfly effect", refers to what would happen if a butterfly flapped it's wings over Australia, it could theoretically cause a tornado in Texas. Small changes in the atmosphere have huge effects in different areas. That makes it hard to predict. So it's done with a probability distribution. The same method used for things you are talking about, seemingly random things.. A few simple rules can create such random occurrences, but they still have a system and are therefor determined. A set of laws that governs behavior is ultimately determined to act on those laws.
The other thing to consider is the holographic universe theory. You can cut up a line so small that you can't see it, but it's still there. We may need much more superior technology to really get to the bottom of meiosis, then we will find another incomprehensible thing, which we will also find probabilities and laws and other determining forces. The only things in nature that are not determined are those we don't fully understand.
No, there is no loss. I won't be disappointed. Shit, I won't even know what I was.
I just see consciousness as a product of the brain. Everything we feel, see, hear, smell and taste is the result of our nervous system. They are conscious experiences that can not be possible without one of several parts. All of our experiences are dependent on and determined by our ability to sense them. Our ability to rationally deliberate is dependent on and determined by a database of knowledge/experience and our emotional situation. We are not just like computers, because we have no software, we just have logic circuits, billions and billions of them. We store our percepts in the brain and reference them when needed. We make a deliberation and store it, so we don't have to do it again. So someone can ask me, "do you believe in God?", and I can immediately respond "No", without having to think about it. From the very beginning of life we create and store percepts, compound them, encapsulate them and create a nice little package called a character.
And it's far more chaotic than the atmosphere, the actual number of determinants that have played on even a teenagers life are in the quadrabillion gazillion tetragillion zillion bavillions, or something like that.
The butterfly may contribute to the weather but its actions alone do not determine the result. At any stage of our evolution for example an event could have occured which prevented our eventual appearance. We were not destined to appear, that is an egocentric view-we are here by chance.
Intesrestingly evolutionary theory offers a firm basis for the idea of Kharma under some circumstances where individuals reciprocate with one another.
I also liked the Wikipedia explanation:
Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done, is currently doing and will do. The results or "fruits" of actions are called karma-phala. Karma is not about retribution, vengeance, punishment or reward. Karma simply deals with what is. The effects of all deeds actively create past, present and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life, and the pain and joy it brings to others.
I do not think that Buddhism is deterministic however. Its just saying that you create your path although everything you do or have done paves it.
Just a question; if everything is determined...why is it? Why was this path laid out then? ..this leads to the question.. where does it all start?
These questions are way tooooo big for little me, so I just take it one step at a time and... enjoy the way on my way!
Hope you all do too!
Ahnimus would you consider that your being, your brain, your body, all the sum total of your experience so far, who you are, is completely unique from that of any other human being on the planet? That when your body dies, and along with it your brain, all of that uniqueness will be lost. Gone to the world forever. Could this not be considered a soul of sorts? For want of a better word. Do you not agree that no two human beings are alike. That we are all individual by both nurture and nature and life experience and that this cannot be duplicated exactly? Not even in twins.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I believe every action has a reaction, though.
naděje umírá poslední
Just like telling a lie. You either have to live up to it forever, or you look like a fool.
Kind of like always looking for the most beautiful girl and then all you friends think your wife is the ugliest woman they have ever seen.
That thing named Karma will indeed find a way to creep back into your life. Even if it only is a small thing that only you realise happened. It will be there. Of course if I were a religious person I would say it is god getting you back.
Then again there is always Murphy's Law to worry about.
That's the truth, we are going to need the next 2000 or so years of eutopia to make up for the past.
man i'm glad this isn't true with me
Esther's here and she's sick?
hi Esther, now we are all going to be sick, thanks
So, you can travel through time, retaining your current knowledge and changing the decisions you've made?