Science Without a Soul

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

Because he lacked the knowledge that we have today.

It's the old caloric theory, phlogiston, flat-earth, elan vital, etc.. etc.. etc..

It's easy to think like Pascal if you don't know how matter can represent it's self, but it most certainly can. It's widely believed that newborns don't represent themselves either, they cannot distinguish between themselves and their environments. Some research suggests that babies learn they are separate entities by social observations, by observing other independant agents and internalizing those qualities. Some babies up to 2 years of age, still cannot recognize the person in the mirror as being themselves. Keep in mind, that you only know of your mind, you believe in other minds because of your aquired theory of minds. But you can only directly know your own mind. So whether or not an arrangement of matter has a mind, is beyond your theory of mind, and likewise it was beyond pascal's. An alternative theory of mind might incorporate some physical requisites for a mind, and under that theory matter can represent it's self.

thank you.

Scubascott

Ahnimus wrote:

Keep in mind, that you only know of your mind, you believe in other minds because of your aquired theory of minds. But you can only directly know your own mind.

I only know my mind. . . I. am. mine.

searchlightsoul

Angelica needs to smoke more pot.

angelica

Throughout history, people with physical and mental disabilities have been abandoned at birth,

banished from society, used as court jesters, drowned and burned during the Inquisition,

gassed in Nazi Germany, and still continue to be segregated, institutionalized,

tortured in the name of behavior management, abused, raped, euthanized, and murdered.

Now, for the first time, people with disabilities are taking their rightful

place as fully contributing citizens. The danger is that we will respond with

remediation and benevolence rather than equity and respect. And so, we offer you







A CREDO FOR SUPPORT



Do Not see my disability as the problem. Recognize that my disability is an attribute.



Do Not see my disability as a deficit. It is you who see me as deviant and helpless.



Do Not try to fix me because I am not broken. Support me.

I can make my contribution to the community in my way.



Do Not see me as your client. I am your fellow citizen.

See me as your neighbor. Remember, none of us can be self-sufficient.



Do Not try to modify my behavior. Be still & listen.

What you define as inappropriate may be my attempt to communicate with you in the only way I can.



Do Not try to change me; you have no right. Help me learn what I want to know.



Do Not hide your uncertainty behind “professional” distance.

Be a person who listens, and does not take my struggle away from me by trying to

make it all better.



Do Not use theories and strategies on me.

Be with me. And when we struggle with each other, let that give rise to self-reflection.



Do Not try to control me. I have a right to my power as a person.

What you call non-compliance or manipulation may actually be the only way I can

exert some control over my life



Do Not teach me to be obedient, submissive, and polite.

I need to feel entitled to say No if I am to protect myself.



Do Not be charitable towards me. The last thing the world needs is another Jerry Lewis.

Be my ally against those who exploit me for their own gratification.



Do Not try to be my friend. I deserve more than that. Get to know me. We may become friends.



Do Not help me, even if it does make you feel good.

Ask me if I need your help. Let me show you how you can best assist me.



Do Not admire me. A desire to live a full life does not warrant adoration.

Respect me, for respect presumes equity.



Do Not tell, correct, and lead. Listen, Support, and Follow.



Do Not work on me.

Work with me.

http://www.cclswi.com/CCLS_Homepage_Files/CCLS%20Credo%20for%20Support.htm

angelica

"The notion of mental illness derives it main support from such phenomena as syphilis of the brain or delirious conditions-intoxications, for instance -- in which persons are known to manifest various peculiarities or disorders of thinking and behavior. Correctly speaking, however, these are diseases of the brain, not of the mind. According to one school of thought, all so-called mental illness is of this type. The assumption is made that some neurological defect, perhaps a very subtle one, will ultimately be found for all the disorders of thinking and behavior. Many contemporary psychiatrists, physicians, and other scientists hold this view. This position implies that people cannot have troubles -- expressed in what are now called "mental illnesses" -- because of differences in personal needs, opinions, social aspirations, values, and so on. All problems in living are attributed to physicochemical processes which in due time will be discovered by medical research."



"The term "mental illness" is widely used to describe something which is very different than a disease of the brain. Many people today take it· for granted that living is an arduous process. Its hardship for modern man, moreover, derives not so much from a struggle for biological survival as from the stresses and strains inherent in the social intercourse of complex human personalities. In this context, the notion of mental illness is used to identify or describe some feature of an individual's so-called personality. Mental illness -- as a deformity of the personality, so to speak -- is then regarded as the cause of the human disharmony. It is implicit in this view that social intercourse between people is regarded as something inherently harmonious, its disturbance being due solely to the presence of "mental illness" in many people. This is obviously fallacious reasoning, for it makes the abstraction "mental illness" into a cause, even though this abstraction was created in the first place to serve only as a shorthand expression for certain types of human behavior. ".

http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Szasz/myth.htm

Ahnimus

Yea, Kim Peek thinks he's the shit too, but he can't dress himself. He needs constant assistance. Which is fine, but you can't look a gift horse in the mouth. If people are willing to help you function normally, it's rather rude to complain about the type of help your getting.

Ahnimus

I personally agree with the destigmatization of mental illnesses and greater support for those afflicted. But this is ridiculous. They are disorders, they are illnesses. I'm tired of everything being PC. Shellshock, became PTSD and soon enough it will be called "Post-Traumatic Awesomeness and Bonuses" which will then be found to be sarcastic and changed back to something that elicits empathy from the public and on and on we go.

angelica

Earlier in this thread, MahoganySouls, a self-admitted person in the mental health field, told me I'd have a disease ( mental health) for the rest of my life. Edit: my mistake--she said I was "managing my disease".

1) She says this, even though there is not a scientific test to give me that would indicate that I have a disease.

2) She said this, even though I have no symptoms of a psychiatric disease.

3) She said this, even given the fact that if I died right now, and was subsequently autopsied, no disease would be found in my brain.

soulsinging

Ahnimus wrote:

I personally agree with the destigmatization of mental illnesses and greater support for those afflicted. But this is ridiculous. They are disorders, they are illnesses. I'm tired of everything being PC. Shellshock, became PTSD and soon enough it will be called "Post-Traumatic Awesomeness and Bonuses" which will then be found to be sarcastic and changed back to something that elicits empathy from the public and on and on we go.

i agree 110% with this post. let it be marked in the record

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Earlier in this thread, MahoganySouls, a self-admitted person in the mental health field, told me I'd have a disease ( mental health) for the rest of my life. Edit: my mistake--she said I was "managing my disease".

1) She says this, even though there is not a scientific test to give me that would indicate that I have a disease.

2) She said this, even though I have no symptoms of a psychiatric disease.

3) She said this, even given the fact that if I died right now, and was subsequently autopsied, no disease would be found in my brain.

If your situation is OCD then there is a real neural correlate. Unfortunately it's difficult to detect and the causality is not understood. Progress is being made however, and we know that Fluoxetine (Prozac) reduces the effects of OCD by blocking the reuptake of Seratonin (HT-5). OCD can be detected by measuring Seratonin (HT-5) consistency in the synaptic cleft, but this is also characteristic of Manic-Depression and other brain states considered to be mental health issues.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

If your situation is OCD then there is a real neural correlate. Unfortunately it's difficult to detect and the causality is not understood. Progress is being made however, and we know that Fluoxetine (Prozac) reduces the effects of OCD by blocking the reuptake of Seratonin (HT-5). OCD can be detected by measuring Seratonin (HT-5) consistency in the synaptic cleft, but this is also characteristic of Manic-Depression and other brain states considered to be mental health issues.

Show me the empirical scientific evidence that shows I have a psychiatric disease, Ahmimus. Until you can show it, "progress is being made" in our ability to show it continues to mean my disease is a figment of imagination.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Show me the empirical scientific evidence that shows I have a psychiatric disease, Ahmimus. Until you can show it, "progress is being made" in our ability to show it continues to mean my disease is a figment of imagination.

http://www.healthlink.mcw.edu/article/930977015.html

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

http://www.healthlink.mcw.edu/article/930977015.html

An article doesn't prove anything about my brain.

Unless we're talking pseudo-science.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

An article doesn't prove anything about my brain.

Unless we're talking pseudo-science.

Your introspection doesn't prove anything either.

This is a pointless conversation. Go back to posting your propaganda.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

pardon my sense of humor...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esl2NNOtHQE

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

Your introspection doesn't prove anything either.

This is a pointless conversation. Go back to posting your propaganda.

If something cannot be scientifically proven, it's not a science concept. When a theory of disease isn't proven it's speculation. No matter how many gather together and share the "belief" of the non-scientific concept. It's pseudo-science.

For myself or anyone who has ever experienced a mental health issue, the dynamics are very, very real. And very very painful. There are an interaction of variables at play that are obvious and undeniable. It's just not a disease. I know it's difficult to let go of stigma, and to treat these people with the equality they deserve. But the time has come. It's time for awareness and understanding. It's time for us to let go of our mis-understanding the psycho-social imbalances we are unconscious of and that we perpetuate as "good/bad" duality judgments. Whether we demonize someone through religion or through science, it's the same thing. What we have beyond this good/bad dichotomy is reality and understanding.

And humankind is starting to figure this out. It's so cool watching evolution at play.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

If something cannot be scientifically proven, it's not a science concept. When a theory of disease isn't proven it's speculation. No matter how many gather together and share the "belief" of the non-scientific concept. It's pseudo-science.

For myself or anyone who has ever experienced a mental health issue, the dynamics are very, very real. And very very painful. There are an interaction of variables at play that are obvious and undeniable. It's just not a disease. I know it's difficult to let go of stigma, and to treat these people with the equality they deserve. But the time has come. It's time for awareness and understanding. It's time for us to let go of our mis-understanding the psycho-social imbalances we are unconscious of and that we perpetuate as "good/bad" duality judgments. Whether we demonize someone through religion or through science, it's the same thing. What we have beyond this good/bad dichotomy is reality and understanding.

And humankind is starting to figure this out. It's so cool watching evolution at play.

OCD is scientific. I don't see where you find it to be speculation. Your theories are mere speculation.

Pauk

Funny how the propaganda that claims to be the voice of truth doesn't have any stated evidence in itself. Constantly saying "Psychiatry doesn't work" in a dramatic hollywood voice doesn't make it true.

There are plenty of credible published papers in psychiatry and mental health. Sure, this current fad of "everyone has a mental illness" with antidepressants being chucked all over the place to sell expensive presciptions is stupid, but that's not to say you can blame the entire field for that problem. How can you possibly say psychiatric conditions like Schizophrenia can't possibly exist? Can you state any credible scientific paper to prove that everyone's health is 100% a-ok? And no, wikipedia and youtube videos don't count.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

OCD is scientific. I don't see where you find it to be speculation. Your theories are mere speculation.

"OCD is scientific" is a very vague thing to say. You can say whatever you want. Proving something is held to a much higher standard.

Proving a set of variables that are social/psychological as a disease is held to the standard of the scientific method. If you are admitting it's a metaphorical disease, I'll accept that--it's a philosophical disease, then...existing between doctors/patients/society...

You can philosophically make statements about how OCD may be genetically connected or even that OCD is a disease. Proving it is another matter altogether. Unless scientism and pseudo-science standards are what we're going by here.

Ahnimus

fowls wrote:

Funny how the propaganda that claims to be the voice of truth doesn't have any stated evidence in itself. Constantly saying "Psychiatry doesn't work" in a dramatic hollywood voice doesn't make it true.

There are plenty of credible published papers in psychiatry and mental health. Sure, this current fad of "everyone has a mental illness" with antidepressants being chucked all over the place to sell expensive presciptions is stupid, but that's not to say you can blame the entire field for that problem. How can you possibly say psychiatric conditions like Schizophrenia can't possibly exist? Can you state any credible scientific paper to prove that everyone's health is 100% a-ok? And no, wikipedia and youtube videos don't count.

The problem I think Angelica is trying to articulate but failing at is our propensity to catagorical thinking. We typically place mental health into two catagories; healthy and unhealthy. However, the science suggests this is not the case at all, it's on a continua. There is a lot of diversity in the configurations of the human brains determined by genetic and environmental factors. So much that no two brains are alike, this is evident by our varying personalities. However, this does not mean that some configurations are not ideal. Most certainly there are ideal configurations and other configurations which can be considered dysfunctional. As Sapolsky notes, the authors of the DSM are struggling to incorporate a less catagorical framework into the next version, as psychiatrists are encouraged to think of disorders on a continua. However, I'm not sure what other motivations Angelica has to present psychiatry with such a bleak and imbalanced perspective.