I guess it would be nice to know the % of children who go through this type of graduation. if it's 1%, I'd so no big deal. someone mentioned those jesus camps and they are equally as sickening.
I also wonder how your attitude would be if you saw Israel children doing the same thing. is it safe to say would be outraged? safe to say you'd make your own thread showing this outrageousness?
personally, I wouldnt be surprised. Children soldiers have been in use for countless years now by everyone.
I also wonder how your attitude would be if you saw Israel children doing the same thing. is it safe to say would be outraged? safe to say you'd make your own thread showing this outrageousness?
It is disgusting that children of such a young age are made to dress up to look like suicide bombers. I suspect this is merely a way of sending out a message to Israel that Palestinian children, when old enough, will carry on the fight for freedom when their elders have been killed off. I think it's terrible that Palestinians have been forced into such desperation and anger. But then I suspect that anyone else would behave the same way if subjected to the same daily oppression and terror.
what bothers me is to the great extent it is, in palastine, saudia arbia, pakistan, etc.
well said.
Thank you. I have a feeling that you and I, if forced to designate sympathies to one side or the other would differ. As long as we are busy pointing fingers, nothing will change. Those are mistakes often made by governments, that could change if the good in both societies could rise up.
That is the one thing I am ashamed of my gov't for these days (everything else is petty by comparison)... choosing to fear the negative rather than encourage the light to shine through.
So perhaps rather than focusing your energy on pointing out those extremes, we could try to evolve some by discussing that grey area that isn't entertained often. I wonder what people think could be done to move towards peace...
I just don't have the energy to engage in the finger pointing
personally, I wouldnt be surprised. Children soldiers have been in use for countless years now by everyone.
just look at where that takes place. take a look at this list. the countries mentioned have been at war for decades. http://hrw.org/campaigns/crp/index.htm
would you be surprised if we had schools like this all over america? I certainly would.
Thank you. I have a feeling that you and I, if forced to designate sympathies to one side or the other would differ. As long as we are busy pointing fingers, nothing will change. Those are mistakes often made by governments, that could change if the good in both societies could rise up.
That is the one thing I am ashamed of my gov't for these days (everything else is petty by comparison)... choosing to fear the negative rather than encourage the light to shine through.
So perhaps rather than focusing your energy on pointing out those extremes, we could try to evolve some by discussing that grey area that isn't entertained often. I wonder what people think could be done to move towards peace...
I just don't have the energy to engage in the finger pointing
I agree with you. pointing the finger doesnt solve anything. peace is a good thing. no one can win the argument against it.
there are just too many countries and people who want Israel gone. they do not believe they have a right to be there. I would like peace as much as you. but with that type of thinking peace can not happen.
I am no expert on the subject but the 1967 borders seem to be the major issue. go back to them and we have peace? good then lets do it.
and then lets see the muslim world call for these schools to be closed. and they can teach their children peace. I promise to do the same.
[quote="jlew24asuI am no expert on the subject but the 1967 borders seem to be the major issue. go back to them and we have peace? good then lets do it.
and then lets see the muslim world call for these schools to be closed. and they can teach their children peace. I promise to do the same.[/quote"]
This is all I've been asking for all this time Jeff. And this is all that the international community has been asking for the past 40 years. Unfortunately the U.S has singularly vetoed every single U.N resolution calling for a withdrawal to the 1967 borders, and for a two state solution.
I agree with you. pointing the finger doesnt solve anything. peace is a good thing. no one can win the argument against it.
there are just too many countries and people who want Israel gone. they do not believe they have a right to be there. I would like peace as much as you. but with that type of thinking peace can not happen.
I am no expert on the subject but the 1967 borders seem to be the major issue. go back to them and we have peace? good then lets do it.
and then lets see the muslim world call for these schools to be closed. and they can teach their children peace. I promise to do the same.
Agreed. I think it goes waaaay beyond borders. Can you imagine the amount of healing that has to take place on a human level inorder for there to truely be peace? How many fatherless kids are there, who can't help but blame the other side.
I have to entertain the thought that America's backing of Israel has something to do with how America and Israel both are viewed in arabic societies. It is uncomfortable to consider, but there is a reason why America and Israel is disliked. Again, not in their entirity, but those segments and gov't actions that are ment to represent all citizens of both countries.
Can you imagine as an American (or whatever nationality you happen to be) strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing it up just for collateral damage? Religous perversion... yes. But in reality this is a human being straping explosives to themselves, and blowing themselves up. I can't imagine living in a society that has gotten to that point.
Isn't there a movie called Jesus Camp where they dress up kids in fatigues and tell them they are going to be soldiers in gods war? This is what im reminded regarding this video.
I just watched that movie last week. That DVD, and this video JLew posted, tell me all I need to know about the danger of organized religion and religious zealots. Let's get this holy war over with and have all religionists killed each other off so the rest of us can live happily ever after.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
As sick as this sounds.....if there was ever an excuse to not feel as bad for wasting a few kids...this type of thing would be it.
Seems like totally backwards result to their efforts...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
This is all I've been asking for all this time Jeff. And this is all that the international community has been asking for the past 40 years. Unfortunately the U.S has singularly vetoed every single U.N resolution calling for a withdrawal to the 1967 borders, and for a two state solution.
there are reasons why Israel hasnt gone back to those borders. i.m not defending those reasons because i dont quite fully understand it. but I know war was brought onto to Israel in 1967.
seems like this has now turned into the loser of a poker game asking for his money back.
there are reasons why Israel hasnt gone back to those borders. i.m not defending those reasons because i dont quite fully understand it. but I know war was brought onto to Israel in 1967.
The 1967 War and the
Israeli Occupation of the
West Bank and Gaza
Did the Egyptians actually start the 1967 war, as Israel originally claimed?
"The former Commander of the Air Force, General Ezer Weitzman, regarded as a hawk, stated that there was 'no threat of destruction' but that the attack on Egypt, Jordan and Syria was nevertheless justified so that Israel could 'exist according the scale, spirit, and quality she now embodies.'...Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: 'In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.' "Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."
Was the 1967 war defenisve?
"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68
Moshe Dayan posthumously speaks out on the Golan Heights
"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.
And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'" The New York Times, May 11, 1997
The history of Israeli expansionism
"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them." David Ben-Gurion, in 1936, quoted in Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."
Expansionism - continued
"The main danger which Israel, as a 'Jewish state', poses to its own people, to other Jews and to its neighbors, is its ideologically motivated pursuit of territorial expansion and the inevitable series of wars resulting from this aim...No zionist politician has ever repudiated Ben-Gurion's idea that Israeli policies must be based (within the limits of practical considerations) on the restoration of Biblical borders as the borders of the Jewish state." Israeli professor, Israel Shahak, "Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3000 Years."
Expansionism - continued
In Israeli Prime Minister Moshe Sharatt's personal diaries, there is an excerpt from May of 1955 in which he quotes Moshe Dayan as follows: "[Israel] must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no - it must - invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation-and-revenge...And above all - let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space." Quoted in Livia Rokach, "Israel's Sacred Terrorism."
But wasn't the occupation of Arab lands necessary to protect Israel's security?
"Senator [J.William Fulbright] proposed in 1970 that America should guarantee Israel's security in a formal treaty, protecting her with armed forces if necessary. In return, Israel would retire to the borders of 1967. The UN Security Council would guarantee this arrangement, and thereby bring the Soviet Union - then a supplier of arms and political aid to the Arabs - into compliance. As Israeli troops were withdrawn from the Golan Heights, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank they would be replaced by a UN peacekeeping force. Israel would agree to accept a certain number of Palestinians and the rest would be settled in a Palestinian state outside Israel.
"The plan drew favorable editorial support in the United States. The proposal, however, was flatly rejected by Israel. 'The whole affair disgusted Fulbright,' writes [his biographer Randall] Woods. 'The Israelis were not even willing to act in their own self-interest.'" Allan Brownfield in "Issues of the American Council for Judaism." Fall 1997.[Ed.-This was one of many such proposals]
What happened after the 1967 war ended?
"In violation of international law, Israel has confiscated over 52 percent of the land in the West Bank and 30 percent of the Gaza Strip for military use or for settlement by Jewish civilians...From 1967 to 1982, Israel's military government demolished 1,338 Palestinian homes on the West Bank. Over this period, more than 300,000 Palestinians were detained without trial for various periods by Israeli security forces." Intifada: The Palestinian Uprising Against Israeli Occupation," ed. Lockman and Beinin.
World opinion on the legality of Israeli control of the West Bank and Gaza.
"Under the UN Charter there can lawfully be no territorial gains from war, even by a state acting in self-defense. The response of other states to Israel's occupation shows a virtually unanimous opinion that even if Israel's action was defensive, its retention of the West Bank and Gaza Strip was not...The [UN] General Assembly characterized Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as a denial of self determination and hence a 'serious and increasing threat to international peace and security.' " John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."
Examples of the effects of Israeli occupation
"A study of students at Bethlehem University reported by the Coordinating Committee of International NGOs in Jerusalem showed that many families frequently go five days a week without running water...The study goes further to report that, 'water quotas restrict usage by Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, while Israeli settlers have almost unlimited amounts.'
"A summer trip to a Jewish settlement on the edge of the Judean desert less than five miles from Bethlehem confirmed this water inequity for us. While Bethlehemites were buying water from tank trucks at highly inflated rates, the lawns were green in the settlement. Sprinklers were going at mid day in the hot August sunshine. Sounds of children swimming in the outdoor pool added to the unreality." Betty Jane Bailey, in "The Link", December 1996.
Israeli occupation - continued
"You have to remember that 90 percent of children two years old or more have experienced - some many, many times - the [Israeli] army breaking into the home, beating relatives, destroying things. Many were beaten themselves, had bones broken, were shot, tear gassed, or had these things happen to siblings and neighbors...The emotional aspect of the child is affected by the [lack of] security. He needs to feel safe. We see the consequences later if he does not. In our research, we have found that children who are exposed to trauma tend to be more extreme in their behaviors and, later, in their political beliefs." Dr Samir Quota, director of research for the Gaza Community Mental Health Programme, quoted in "The Journal of Palestine Studies," Summer 1996, p.84
Israeli occupation - continued
"There is nothing quite like the misery one feels listening to a 35-year-old [Palestinian] man who worked fifteen years as an illegal day laborer in Israel in order to save up money to build a house for his family only to be shocked one day upon returning from work to find that the house and all that was in it had been flattened by an Israeli bulldozer. When I asked why this was done - the land, after all, was his - I was told that a paper given to him the next day by an Israeli soldier stated that he had built the structure without a license. Where else in the world are people required to have a license (always denied them) to build on their own property? Jews can build, but never Palestinians. This is apartheid." Edward Said, in "The Nation", May 4, 1998.
All Jewish settlements in territories occupied in the 1967 war are a direct violation of the Geneva Conventions, which Israel has signed.
"The Geneva Convention requires an occupying power to change the existing order as little as possible during its tenure. One aspect of this obligation is that it must leave the territory to the people it finds there. It may not bring its own people to populate the territory. This prohibition is found in the convention's Article 49, which states, 'The occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.'" John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."
Excerpts from the U.S. State Department's reports during the Intifada
"Following are some excerpts from the U.S. State Department's Country Reports on Human Rights Practices from 1988 to 1991:
1988: 'Many avoidable deaths and injuries' were caused because Israeli soldiers frequently used gunfire in situations that did not present mortal danger to troops...IDF troops used clubs to break limbs and beat Palestinians who were not directly involved in disturbances or resisting arrest..At least thirteen Palestinians have been reported to have died from beatings...'
1989: Human rights groups charged that the plainclothes security personnel acted as death squads who killed Palestinian activists without warning, after they had surrendered, or after they had been subdued...
1991: [The report] added that the human rights groups had published 'detailed credible reports of torture, abuse and mistreatment of Palestinian detainees in prisons and detention centers." Former Congressman Paul Findley, "Deliberate Deceptions."
Jerusalem - Eternal, Indivisible Capital of Israel?
"Writing in The Jerusalem Report (Feb. 28, 2000), Leslie Susser points out that the current boundaries were drawn after the Six-Day War. Responsibility for drawing those lines fell to Central Command Chief Rehavan Ze'evi. The line he drew 'took in not only the five square kilometers of Arab East Jerusalem - but also 65 square kilometers of surrounding open country and villages, most of which never had any municipal link to Jerusalem. Overnight they became part of Israel's eternal and indivisible capital.'" Allan Brownfield in The Washington Report On Middle East Affairs, May 2000.
all this shows is opinions on who and why the war started. and continues with facts leading from that point.
but this from wiki stats differently
Egypt expelled the United Nations Emergency Force from the Sinai Peninsula, increased its military activity near the border, blockaded the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships, and called for unified Arab action against Israel. In June 1967, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt's airforce fearing an imminent invasion by Egypt.[1] Jordan then attacked western Jerusalem and Netanya.[2][3] At the war's end, Israel had gained control of eastern Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day.
I just watched that movie last week. That DVD, and this video JLew posted, tell me all I need to know about the danger of organized religion and religious zealots. Let's get this holy war over with and have all religionists killed each other off so the rest of us can live happily ever after.
I like this idea.
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
Okay... I got home... after watching the CUP skate in ANAHEIM!!!
...
Oh... and I watched the video in question.
...
All I have to say is that is illustrated yet another reason why religion has no place in school.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm highly skeptical of anything that comes from memri. Most of it seems to be just as likely to be propaganda created by Israeli groups than genuine clips from islamic media.
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fPXpL-Nydx4 http://www.telrumeidaproject.org/
On September 3, 2005, the first day of school for the children in Hebron, settler children attacked a group of Palestinians and internationals near the Tel Rumeida settlement. Though the Israeli police and soldiers were on the scene, they did nothing to prevent injuries despite constant pleading for help from the internationals. (lots of other videos and quotes at their site)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OLhTeXdL2ik
In May 2005, a group of teenage settler girls attacked the students and teachers at Qurtaba School, blocking their way out of the school as a police officer filmed and soldiers watched.
The settlers sing and chant in Hebrew, "There is no Palestine, this is Israel" and "there are no Palestinians." Settler boys in the street then blocked the stairs by stoning the students as they tried to come down the stairs. The students scream and run, but are blocked from every direction. The police and soldiers do not protect the students. Documentarian Terje Carlsson filmed this incident
i'm sure there's plenty that can be posted on both sides
but if you want i can post more, the one where the idf beats ppl for nonviolently protesting them destroying their olive trees then throwing tear gas into the ambulance that comes to take the injured to the hospital is always a crowd fav
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Israeli reservists serving in the Tulkarm area during Operation Defensive Shield were stunned when they opened gifts sent by school children from central Israel. Many of the students wrote them letters in which they encouraged them to disregard the rules and regulations and to kill as many Arabs as possible. Dozens of the letters were sent, mostly from children in the 7th through 10th grades who attend national religious schools.
One reservist said he was eager to open the letter, but he was stunned when he started to read it. "I pray for you that you return home safely, and kill at least ten for me," wrote the pupil. "Screw the rules and spray them. By the way-a good Arab is a dead Arab." Other letters were even more heated. "Let the Palestinians, may God blacken their name, burn in Hell. Punch holes in them with your M-16 and bomb them," wrote one of the teens. Another wrote, "I have a special request for you-kill as many Arabs as you can." In another letter, a pupil wished the soldier success in his mission and added, "Say, isn't it fun to shoot an Arab? Here's a slogan: a good Arab is a dead Arab. A top notch Arab is a buried Arab."
Most of the letters contained similar statements. Some of the teenagers, who are supposed to be drafted in another two years, said they regretted not being able to take part in the "action" now. The reservist who opened the first letter mentioned above gathered all the letters and sent them to the Jewish Action Center. "I read the letters and couldn't believe my eyes," he said. "We keep talking about the hateful incitement of the Palestinian educational system towards Israel, and suddenly it happens here with us, beneath everyone's nose. This issue simply frightens me and has to set off alarms in our educational system."
The director of the public department at the Jewish Action Center sent a letter to the Education Minister demanding she investigate the situation and curb "trends towards radicalization." The ministry said it will investigate.
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Just watched the video... at first little girls being princesses/butterflies/fairies (or something similar), little boys in fatigues toting plastic guns.... hmmmmmm... I see that every day when children are playing....
But seriously... as one said, religious/military fanatics exist in all religions and I'm sure if one spent time searching, we could find vids like that for any country we want. And yes... Jesus Camp in the US is a bloody good example. And children in countries with conflict ARE taught to hate and fight their oppressor.... any country.
Wasn't the presenter (a woman, mind you.. aren't women supposed to be totally oppressed and not allowed out?) talking about a discussion to follow the clip? Wonder if that discussion was about these ceremonies?
i can see where the 'jesus camps' get thier influence from.
I was going to metion the lovely american jesus camps. Watched that program the other day and was quite sickened by the stupity of people on there.
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
I'm highly skeptical of anything that comes from memri. Most of it seems to be just as likely to be propaganda created by Israeli groups than genuine clips from islamic media.
Just watched the video... at first little girls being princesses/butterflies/fairies (or something similar), little boys in fatigues toting plastic guns.... hmmmmmm... I see that every day when children are playing....
But seriously... as one said, religious/military fanatics exist in all religions and I'm sure if one spent time searching, we could find vids like that for any country we want. And yes... Jesus Camp in the US is a bloody good example. And children in countries with conflict ARE taught to hate and fight their oppressor.... any country.
Wasn't the presenter (a woman, mind you.. aren't women supposed to be totally oppressed and not allowed out?) talking about a discussion to follow the clip? Wonder if that discussion was about these ceremonies?
here is what you and others fail to realize. this type of video seems to be the norm in the muslim world. these schools area all over. hundreds, thousands of them in several countries.
yes there was a jesus camp video posted and it was horrible.
but compare the frequency (and sheer numbers) of jesus camp kids to jihad kids.
there is maybe 1 jesus camp tucked away in some remote area of the pacific northwest? while thousands and thousands of kids are growing up to be jihadists and die for Allah.
there is maybe 1 jesus camp tucked away in some remote area of the pacific northwest? while thousands and thousands of kids are growing up to be jihadists and die for Allah.
Ok, now that that fact is established, how do you plan to act on that?
Get rid of Islam and/or muslims? Get rid of Palestine?
Jihad, terrorism and all of that is really horrible we all agree on that. But look at the sources of those : the money come from oil, the manipulation comes from a lack of other prospects (live a shitty life and die by a "surgical strike" that missed or go to heaven killing those you hold responsible for your shitty life?) and there is nothing we do (I say we for our governments that we willingly elect).
These people have nothing while (in comparison) we have everything and yet all we do is look at them and go "stupid radical fuckers can't they just build a house, make money and stop believing in all that bullshit?". Why is our only reflex towards them criticism? Do you have solutions?
here is what you and others fail to realize. this type of video seems to be the norm in the muslim world. these schools area all over. hundreds, thousands of them in several countries.
yes there was a jesus camp video posted and it was horrible.
but compare the frequency (and sheer numbers) of jesus camp kids to jihad kids.
there is maybe 1 jesus camp tucked away in some remote area of the pacific northwest? while thousands and thousands of kids are growing up to be jihadists and die for Allah.
Your blind faith is showing. When are you going to come to reason?
how about the video in queston. does that equally sicken you?
Does the post El_kabong posted about the little isrealli children writing to the soldiers "please kill lots of arabs" sicken you?
I do not suppport palestine or isreal teaching propaganda to there children but it is pa for the course. They are in the middle of a war whats the evangelicals excuse?
I think the video is propaganda anyway.
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
Your blind faith is showing. When are you going to come to reason?
I've come to the conclusion he will never change his opinion on anything. Even when facts are put before him he just says there rubbish.
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
Comments
personally, I wouldnt be surprised. Children soldiers have been in use for countless years now by everyone.
It is disgusting that children of such a young age are made to dress up to look like suicide bombers. I suspect this is merely a way of sending out a message to Israel that Palestinian children, when old enough, will carry on the fight for freedom when their elders have been killed off. I think it's terrible that Palestinians have been forced into such desperation and anger. But then I suspect that anyone else would behave the same way if subjected to the same daily oppression and terror.
Thank you. I have a feeling that you and I, if forced to designate sympathies to one side or the other would differ. As long as we are busy pointing fingers, nothing will change. Those are mistakes often made by governments, that could change if the good in both societies could rise up.
That is the one thing I am ashamed of my gov't for these days (everything else is petty by comparison)... choosing to fear the negative rather than encourage the light to shine through.
So perhaps rather than focusing your energy on pointing out those extremes, we could try to evolve some by discussing that grey area that isn't entertained often. I wonder what people think could be done to move towards peace...
I just don't have the energy to engage in the finger pointing
would you be surprised if we had schools like this all over america? I certainly would.
I agree with you. pointing the finger doesnt solve anything. peace is a good thing. no one can win the argument against it.
there are just too many countries and people who want Israel gone. they do not believe they have a right to be there. I would like peace as much as you. but with that type of thinking peace can not happen.
I am no expert on the subject but the 1967 borders seem to be the major issue. go back to them and we have peace? good then lets do it.
and then lets see the muslim world call for these schools to be closed. and they can teach their children peace. I promise to do the same.
and then lets see the muslim world call for these schools to be closed. and they can teach their children peace. I promise to do the same.[/quote"]
This is all I've been asking for all this time Jeff. And this is all that the international community has been asking for the past 40 years. Unfortunately the U.S has singularly vetoed every single U.N resolution calling for a withdrawal to the 1967 borders, and for a two state solution.
Agreed. I think it goes waaaay beyond borders. Can you imagine the amount of healing that has to take place on a human level inorder for there to truely be peace? How many fatherless kids are there, who can't help but blame the other side.
I have to entertain the thought that America's backing of Israel has something to do with how America and Israel both are viewed in arabic societies. It is uncomfortable to consider, but there is a reason why America and Israel is disliked. Again, not in their entirity, but those segments and gov't actions that are ment to represent all citizens of both countries.
Can you imagine as an American (or whatever nationality you happen to be) strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing it up just for collateral damage? Religous perversion... yes. But in reality this is a human being straping explosives to themselves, and blowing themselves up. I can't imagine living in a society that has gotten to that point.
I guess I am not full of answers...
I just watched that movie last week. That DVD, and this video JLew posted, tell me all I need to know about the danger of organized religion and religious zealots. Let's get this holy war over with and have all religionists killed each other off so the rest of us can live happily ever after.
Seems like totally backwards result to their efforts...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
there are reasons why Israel hasnt gone back to those borders. i.m not defending those reasons because i dont quite fully understand it. but I know war was brought onto to Israel in 1967.
seems like this has now turned into the loser of a poker game asking for his money back.
http://www.cactus48.com/1967war.html
The 1967 War and the
Israeli Occupation of the
West Bank and Gaza
Did the Egyptians actually start the 1967 war, as Israel originally claimed?
"The former Commander of the Air Force, General Ezer Weitzman, regarded as a hawk, stated that there was 'no threat of destruction' but that the attack on Egypt, Jordan and Syria was nevertheless justified so that Israel could 'exist according the scale, spirit, and quality she now embodies.'...Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: 'In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.' "Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."
Was the 1967 war defenisve?
"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68
Moshe Dayan posthumously speaks out on the Golan Heights
"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.
And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'" The New York Times, May 11, 1997
The history of Israeli expansionism
"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them." David Ben-Gurion, in 1936, quoted in Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."
Expansionism - continued
"The main danger which Israel, as a 'Jewish state', poses to its own people, to other Jews and to its neighbors, is its ideologically motivated pursuit of territorial expansion and the inevitable series of wars resulting from this aim...No zionist politician has ever repudiated Ben-Gurion's idea that Israeli policies must be based (within the limits of practical considerations) on the restoration of Biblical borders as the borders of the Jewish state." Israeli professor, Israel Shahak, "Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3000 Years."
Expansionism - continued
In Israeli Prime Minister Moshe Sharatt's personal diaries, there is an excerpt from May of 1955 in which he quotes Moshe Dayan as follows: "[Israel] must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no - it must - invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation-and-revenge...And above all - let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space." Quoted in Livia Rokach, "Israel's Sacred Terrorism."
But wasn't the occupation of Arab lands necessary to protect Israel's security?
"Senator [J.William Fulbright] proposed in 1970 that America should guarantee Israel's security in a formal treaty, protecting her with armed forces if necessary. In return, Israel would retire to the borders of 1967. The UN Security Council would guarantee this arrangement, and thereby bring the Soviet Union - then a supplier of arms and political aid to the Arabs - into compliance. As Israeli troops were withdrawn from the Golan Heights, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank they would be replaced by a UN peacekeeping force. Israel would agree to accept a certain number of Palestinians and the rest would be settled in a Palestinian state outside Israel.
"The plan drew favorable editorial support in the United States. The proposal, however, was flatly rejected by Israel. 'The whole affair disgusted Fulbright,' writes [his biographer Randall] Woods. 'The Israelis were not even willing to act in their own self-interest.'" Allan Brownfield in "Issues of the American Council for Judaism." Fall 1997.[Ed.-This was one of many such proposals]
What happened after the 1967 war ended?
"In violation of international law, Israel has confiscated over 52 percent of the land in the West Bank and 30 percent of the Gaza Strip for military use or for settlement by Jewish civilians...From 1967 to 1982, Israel's military government demolished 1,338 Palestinian homes on the West Bank. Over this period, more than 300,000 Palestinians were detained without trial for various periods by Israeli security forces." Intifada: The Palestinian Uprising Against Israeli Occupation," ed. Lockman and Beinin.
World opinion on the legality of Israeli control of the West Bank and Gaza.
"Under the UN Charter there can lawfully be no territorial gains from war, even by a state acting in self-defense. The response of other states to Israel's occupation shows a virtually unanimous opinion that even if Israel's action was defensive, its retention of the West Bank and Gaza Strip was not...The [UN] General Assembly characterized Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as a denial of self determination and hence a 'serious and increasing threat to international peace and security.' " John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."
Examples of the effects of Israeli occupation
"A study of students at Bethlehem University reported by the Coordinating Committee of International NGOs in Jerusalem showed that many families frequently go five days a week without running water...The study goes further to report that, 'water quotas restrict usage by Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, while Israeli settlers have almost unlimited amounts.'
"A summer trip to a Jewish settlement on the edge of the Judean desert less than five miles from Bethlehem confirmed this water inequity for us. While Bethlehemites were buying water from tank trucks at highly inflated rates, the lawns were green in the settlement. Sprinklers were going at mid day in the hot August sunshine. Sounds of children swimming in the outdoor pool added to the unreality." Betty Jane Bailey, in "The Link", December 1996.
Israeli occupation - continued
"You have to remember that 90 percent of children two years old or more have experienced - some many, many times - the [Israeli] army breaking into the home, beating relatives, destroying things. Many were beaten themselves, had bones broken, were shot, tear gassed, or had these things happen to siblings and neighbors...The emotional aspect of the child is affected by the [lack of] security. He needs to feel safe. We see the consequences later if he does not. In our research, we have found that children who are exposed to trauma tend to be more extreme in their behaviors and, later, in their political beliefs." Dr Samir Quota, director of research for the Gaza Community Mental Health Programme, quoted in "The Journal of Palestine Studies," Summer 1996, p.84
Israeli occupation - continued
"There is nothing quite like the misery one feels listening to a 35-year-old [Palestinian] man who worked fifteen years as an illegal day laborer in Israel in order to save up money to build a house for his family only to be shocked one day upon returning from work to find that the house and all that was in it had been flattened by an Israeli bulldozer. When I asked why this was done - the land, after all, was his - I was told that a paper given to him the next day by an Israeli soldier stated that he had built the structure without a license. Where else in the world are people required to have a license (always denied them) to build on their own property? Jews can build, but never Palestinians. This is apartheid." Edward Said, in "The Nation", May 4, 1998.
All Jewish settlements in territories occupied in the 1967 war are a direct violation of the Geneva Conventions, which Israel has signed.
"The Geneva Convention requires an occupying power to change the existing order as little as possible during its tenure. One aspect of this obligation is that it must leave the territory to the people it finds there. It may not bring its own people to populate the territory. This prohibition is found in the convention's Article 49, which states, 'The occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.'" John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."
Excerpts from the U.S. State Department's reports during the Intifada
"Following are some excerpts from the U.S. State Department's Country Reports on Human Rights Practices from 1988 to 1991:
1988: 'Many avoidable deaths and injuries' were caused because Israeli soldiers frequently used gunfire in situations that did not present mortal danger to troops...IDF troops used clubs to break limbs and beat Palestinians who were not directly involved in disturbances or resisting arrest..At least thirteen Palestinians have been reported to have died from beatings...'
1989: Human rights groups charged that the plainclothes security personnel acted as death squads who killed Palestinian activists without warning, after they had surrendered, or after they had been subdued...
1991: [The report] added that the human rights groups had published 'detailed credible reports of torture, abuse and mistreatment of Palestinian detainees in prisons and detention centers." Former Congressman Paul Findley, "Deliberate Deceptions."
Jerusalem - Eternal, Indivisible Capital of Israel?
"Writing in The Jerusalem Report (Feb. 28, 2000), Leslie Susser points out that the current boundaries were drawn after the Six-Day War. Responsibility for drawing those lines fell to Central Command Chief Rehavan Ze'evi. The line he drew 'took in not only the five square kilometers of Arab East Jerusalem - but also 65 square kilometers of surrounding open country and villages, most of which never had any municipal link to Jerusalem. Overnight they became part of Israel's eternal and indivisible capital.'" Allan Brownfield in The Washington Report On Middle East Affairs, May 2000.
but this from wiki stats differently
Egypt expelled the United Nations Emergency Force from the Sinai Peninsula, increased its military activity near the border, blockaded the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships, and called for unified Arab action against Israel. In June 1967, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt's airforce fearing an imminent invasion by Egypt.[1] Jordan then attacked western Jerusalem and Netanya.[2][3] At the war's end, Israel had gained control of eastern Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day.
I like this idea.
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
...
Oh... and I watched the video in question.
...
All I have to say is that is illustrated yet another reason why religion has no place in school.
Hail, Hail!!!
-C Addison
"fuck your jesus...we killed your jesus and we're proud of it!...we're gonna kill you and the palestinians!"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fPXpL-Nydx4
http://www.telrumeidaproject.org/
On September 3, 2005, the first day of school for the children in Hebron, settler children attacked a group of Palestinians and internationals near the Tel Rumeida settlement. Though the Israeli police and soldiers were on the scene, they did nothing to prevent injuries despite constant pleading for help from the internationals. (lots of other videos and quotes at their site)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-hdLbgstwW8
http://youtube.com/watch?v=W2AaDg7-zD0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OLhTeXdL2ik
In May 2005, a group of teenage settler girls attacked the students and teachers at Qurtaba School, blocking their way out of the school as a police officer filmed and soldiers watched.
The settlers sing and chant in Hebrew, "There is no Palestine, this is Israel" and "there are no Palestinians." Settler boys in the street then blocked the stairs by stoning the students as they tried to come down the stairs. The students scream and run, but are blocked from every direction. The police and soldiers do not protect the students. Documentarian Terje Carlsson filmed this incident
http://youtube.com/watch?v=v3IQ7OCkUI8
they accidentally killed a woman/mother and an israeli soldier calls it 'purification'
i'm sure there's plenty that can be posted on both sides
but if you want i can post more, the one where the idf beats ppl for nonviolently protesting them destroying their olive trees then throwing tear gas into the ambulance that comes to take the injured to the hospital is always a crowd fav
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
they're pretty good at writing letters, i hear....
http://www.captiveminds.org/misc/letter.htm
"DEAR SOLDIER, PLEASE KILL A LOT OF ARABS"
Source: Yedioth Ahronoth, May 7, 2002
Israeli reservists serving in the Tulkarm area during Operation Defensive Shield were stunned when they opened gifts sent by school children from central Israel. Many of the students wrote them letters in which they encouraged them to disregard the rules and regulations and to kill as many Arabs as possible. Dozens of the letters were sent, mostly from children in the 7th through 10th grades who attend national religious schools.
One reservist said he was eager to open the letter, but he was stunned when he started to read it. "I pray for you that you return home safely, and kill at least ten for me," wrote the pupil. "Screw the rules and spray them. By the way-a good Arab is a dead Arab." Other letters were even more heated. "Let the Palestinians, may God blacken their name, burn in Hell. Punch holes in them with your M-16 and bomb them," wrote one of the teens. Another wrote, "I have a special request for you-kill as many Arabs as you can." In another letter, a pupil wished the soldier success in his mission and added, "Say, isn't it fun to shoot an Arab? Here's a slogan: a good Arab is a dead Arab. A top notch Arab is a buried Arab."
Most of the letters contained similar statements. Some of the teenagers, who are supposed to be drafted in another two years, said they regretted not being able to take part in the "action" now. The reservist who opened the first letter mentioned above gathered all the letters and sent them to the Jewish Action Center. "I read the letters and couldn't believe my eyes," he said. "We keep talking about the hateful incitement of the Palestinian educational system towards Israel, and suddenly it happens here with us, beneath everyone's nose. This issue simply frightens me and has to set off alarms in our educational system."
The director of the public department at the Jewish Action Center sent a letter to the Education Minister demanding she investigate the situation and curb "trends towards radicalization." The ministry said it will investigate.
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
But seriously... as one said, religious/military fanatics exist in all religions and I'm sure if one spent time searching, we could find vids like that for any country we want. And yes... Jesus Camp in the US is a bloody good example. And children in countries with conflict ARE taught to hate and fight their oppressor.... any country.
Wasn't the presenter (a woman, mind you.. aren't women supposed to be totally oppressed and not allowed out?) talking about a discussion to follow the clip? Wonder if that discussion was about these ceremonies?
I was going to metion the lovely american jesus camps. Watched that program the other day and was quite sickened by the stupity of people on there.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
here is what you and others fail to realize. this type of video seems to be the norm in the muslim world. these schools area all over. hundreds, thousands of them in several countries.
yes there was a jesus camp video posted and it was horrible.
but compare the frequency (and sheer numbers) of jesus camp kids to jihad kids.
there is maybe 1 jesus camp tucked away in some remote area of the pacific northwest? while thousands and thousands of kids are growing up to be jihadists and die for Allah.
Well they sure have a problem with their neighbours, so I don't think they are learning love. If you know what I mean.
I wouldn't expect less.
Ok, now that that fact is established, how do you plan to act on that?
Get rid of Islam and/or muslims? Get rid of Palestine?
Jihad, terrorism and all of that is really horrible we all agree on that. But look at the sources of those : the money come from oil, the manipulation comes from a lack of other prospects (live a shitty life and die by a "surgical strike" that missed or go to heaven killing those you hold responsible for your shitty life?) and there is nothing we do (I say we for our governments that we willingly elect).
These people have nothing while (in comparison) we have everything and yet all we do is look at them and go "stupid radical fuckers can't they just build a house, make money and stop believing in all that bullshit?". Why is our only reflex towards them criticism? Do you have solutions?
Your blind faith is showing. When are you going to come to reason?
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Does the post El_kabong posted about the little isrealli children writing to the soldiers "please kill lots of arabs" sicken you?
I do not suppport palestine or isreal teaching propaganda to there children but it is pa for the course. They are in the middle of a war whats the evangelicals excuse?
I think the video is propaganda anyway.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
I've come to the conclusion he will never change his opinion on anything. Even when facts are put before him he just says there rubbish.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.