should the usa have one official language?

soulsinging

sponger wrote:

Nearly impossible to prove in a court of law unless the discrimination is practically constant and practiced in front of witnesses. Any workplace discrimination lawyer will tell you this. This explains why you never answered my question about your work experience. U prolly don't have much.

ive worked since i was 16 in a variety of environments, but was never discriminated against. however, in addition to my work experience, i have spent most of this semester at law school studying employment law and title vii in particular. i think if someone asked if you were a snobbish jap and then fired you, you'd have a pretty decent case.

sponger

soulsinging wrote:

ive worked since i was 16 in a variety of environments, but was never discriminated against. however, in addition to my work experience, i have spent most of this semester at law school studying employment law and title vii in particular. i think if someone asked if you were a snobbish jap and then fired you, you'd have a pretty decent case.

A decent case with no witnesses except for myself? I doubt she'd be honest about it if looking at a lawsuit.

soulsinging

sponger wrote:

A decent case with no witnesses except for myself? I doubt she'd be honest about it if looking at a lawsuit.

and if she was a COWORKER she doesn't have the power to fire you.

sponger

soulsinging wrote:

and if she was a COWORKER she doesn't have the power to fire you.

But she is a manager with the power to shape the opinions of my co-workers, who might also harbor the same preconceptions about certain cultures. I say she is a co-worker because she doesn't have direct authority over me, and we sometimes work together. Even if she wasn't a manager, she could still have social influence amongst the office sewing circles.

As a matter of fact, another co-worker of mine mysteriously knew that I am half japanese. We were talking about foreign languages, and he goes, "So you probably speak japanese then?" Word gets around. Of course, he didn't call me snotty.

soulsinging

sponger wrote:

But she is a manager with the power to shape the opinions of my co-workers, who might also harbor the same preconceptions about certain cultures. I say she is a co-worker because she doesn't have direct authority over me, and we sometimes work together. Even if she wasn't a manager, she could still have social influence amongst the office sewing circles.

if your office sewing circle (which sounds like every bit as much of a derogative generality as snobbish japanese) is so easily influenced that one prejudiced manager can turn the whole office against you becos they're all secretly latent racists... maybe you should be finding a new job anyway?

oooorrrrr... maybe it was a reasonable question from someone who was just trying to make conversation and in reality might have some stereotypes in her mind but is in no way, shape, or form prejudiced and never even considered demoting you or letting the ideas influence her judgment of your work and your job was never in any jeopardy beyond that which your hyper-sensitive, overly-PC imagination lead you to believe was the inevitable result of the racist persecution you had to suffer in that inane water cooler chat.

im going with option b.

sponger

soulsinging wrote:

oooorrrrr... maybe it was a reasonable question from someone who was just trying to make conversation and in reality might have some stereotypes in her mind but is in no way, shape, or form prejudiced and never even considered demoting you or letting the ideas influence her judgment of your work and your job was never in any jeopardy beyond that which your hyper-sensitive, overly-PC imagination lead you to believe was the inevitable result of the racist persecution you had to suffer in that inane water cooler chat.

im going with option b.

She thinks the japanese culture is snotty. You think that's a steretype that bears no prejudice? I think you're just trying to minimize the reality of the situation by playing into the many "what if's" that any person with enough time on their hands can play out on a message board. It's no less suppositional than anything said thus far, so while you might prefer option b over a, there is nothing substantially evident for you to base that preference on with any real sense of objectivity.

soulsinging

sponger wrote:

She thinks the japanese culture is snotty. You think that's a steretype that bears no prejudice? I think you're just trying to minimize the reality of the situation by playing into the many "what if's" that any person with enough time on their hands can play out on a message board. It's no less suppositional than anything said thus far, so while you might prefer option b over a, there is nothing substantially evident for you to base that preference on with any real sense of objectivity.

then if it's option a, maybe you should change jobs. if the work environment is soo hostile to you because of your heritage, maybe you should go work elsewhere. and then when you get there you can make prejudicial comments about the office sewing circle.

sponger

soulsinging wrote:

then if it's option a, maybe you should change jobs. if the work environment is soo hostile to you because of your heritage, maybe you should go work elsewhere. and then when you get there you can make prejudicial comments about the office sewing circle.

You know little of office politics if you believe they don't exist.

And, again, you're putting more words in my mouth. I did not say that I am being discrminated against. I said I was asked a closed-minded question that made me concerned. You have this tendency to paint a polarized view onto my posts so you have a bigger target for you to take aim at. It's sloppy character asssassination. Is that what they've been teaching you in law school?

soulsinging

sponger wrote:

You know little of office politics if you believe they don't exist.

And, again, you're putting more words in my mouth. I did not say that I am being discrminated against. I said I was asked a closed-minded question that made me concerned. You have this tendency to paint a polarized view onto my posts so you have a bigger target for you to take aim at. It's sloppy character asssassination. Is that what they've been teaching you in law school?

attack credibility first

and i think the only close-minded part of it was her saying she finds the japanese snobbish on the whole. her initial question seemed utterly reasonable to me. as did the guy asking if you speak 2 languages. i dont think you have any idea how sheltered white americans are... as a child i didnt see a black man until i was about 5 and promptly asked my dad why the man was chocolate. if you grow up in a lily-white suburb, people from different backgrounds are fascinating, cos you dont get to meet many people but other WASPS. on top of that, i think a lot of those questions are driven by jealousy, becos white americans really have no such heritage to claim as their own and most of them seem to miss it. it's why i've taken such a keen interest in my irish ancestry. we dont have that, so we live vicariously through people that might have a closer connection to their history. there's a great quote in the good sheperd about how the italians have family and the church, the irish have their homeland, and the blacks have their music, then he asks the wasp "what dyou have?" his only response is "i have the united state of america, the rest of you are just passing through." that really is how bankrupt suburban culture is... they have no sense of identity and it shows in their obsession with the identity of others.

perhaps this is an opportunity for you to show her that any such perceptions about the japanese as snobbish are wrong, instead of copping an attitude and acting like they're all idiots for even thinking to ask about your heritage. cos acting like you are superior to all those other "close-minded" people is... well... kinda snobbish.

sponger

soulsinging wrote:

and i think the only close-minded part of it was her saying she finds the japanese snobbish on the whole. her initial question seemed utterly reasonable to me. as did the guy asking if you speak 2 languages. i dont think you have any idea how sheltered white americans are... as a child i didnt see a black man until i was about 5 and promptly asked my dad why the man was chocolate. if you grow up in a lily-white suburb, people from different backgrounds are fascinating, cos you dont get to meet many people but other WASPS. on top of that, i think a lot of those questions are driven by jealousy, becos white americans really have no such heritage to claim as their own and most of them seem to miss it. it's why i've taken such a keen interest in my irish ancestry. we dont have that, so we live vicariously through people that might have a closer connection to their history. there's a great quote in the good sheperd about how the italians have family and the church, the irish have their homeland, and the blacks have their music, then he asks the wasp "what dyou have?" his only response is "i have the united state of america, the rest of you are just passing through." that really is how bankrupt suburban culture is... they have no sense of identity and it shows in their obsession with the identity of others.

perhaps this is an opportunity for you to show her that any such perceptions about the japanese as snobbish are wrong, instead of copping an attitude and acting like they're all idiots for even thinking to ask about your heritage. cos acting like you are superior to all those other "close-minded" people is... well... kinda snobbish.

Wow, that really is a pompous point of view. I hate saying that because I find myself to be pompous quite often. But, you really think you have some kind of profound insight on how I should view the people I am surrounded by.

In any other context, I would exercise the same kind of relaxed acceptance of inferred prejudice that you so arrogantly preach. But, this concerns my livelihood. It concerns my career. It concerns matters that warrant the extra special attention that I give it. You don't seem to be keen to that yet. Maybe when you graduate from your character assassination school and start building a professional career, you'll understand the mindset that I am plagued by.

And for someone who is so open-minded about another person's prejudicical tendencies, the following statement made by you in regards to the "N" word in another thread is somewhat enigmatic:

regardless of whether or not they say, most people think it. or even if they dont think "nigger" they start making assumptions about the person's characteristics based on their looks. that's just human nature. it applies to blacks, mexicans, hicks, dumb blondes. we all form judgments based on people's external appearances.

So, based on skin color alone, most people think the "N" word. Is this one of those instances where people are just sheltered and are trying to start conversation?

soulsinging

sponger wrote:

Wow, that really is a pompous point of view. I hate saying that because I find myself to be pompous quite often. But, you really think you have some kind of profound insight on how I should view the people I am surrounded by.

In any other context, I would exercise the same kind of aloof acceptance of inferred prejudice that you so arrogantly preach. But, this concerns my livelihood. It concerns my career. It concerns matters that warrant the extra special attention that I give it. You don't seem to be keen to that yet. Maybe when you graduate from your character assassination school and start building a professional career, you'll understand the mindset that I am plagued by.

And for someone who is so open-minded about another person's prejudicical tendencies, the following statement made by you in regards to the "N" word in another thread is somewhat enigmatic:



So, based on skin color alone, most people think the "N" word. Is this one of those instances where people are just sheltered and are trying to start conversation?

these are both situation of people being products of their environment and subject to some of the prejudices and stereotypes of their upbringing. most of the time its pretty harmless and benign, sometimes it is not. as in all aspects of real life, there are degrees. the assumption that all black people are gang-banging niggers is on the more deplorable and inherently racist end of the spectrum. the statement that girl X though japanese people were supposed to be snobbish is on the more "im naive and have never been outside my suburb" end of the spectrum.

so you were offended... the question is do you want to take it as an opportunity by handling it with dignity, showing them they are wrong, and helping combat those prejudices (as you paid lip service to when you spoke of evolving past prejudice earlier) OR do you want to make it a huge issue and reinforce their negative stereotypes to further entrench them. im not saying they're right, im saying you have a chance to right the situation. it's like that scene in traffic where the black guy talks about how he always gets poor service cos the waitress assumes he's a poor tipper and when his friends asks him if he left a tip he laughs and says "why would i tip for service like that?" it perpetuates the stereotypes and eventually somebody has to be the bigger person. you seem to think there is no way the "sewing circle" will be the bigger person (i notice how you try to avoid discussing YOUR OWN occasional sterotypically derisive remarks), so since you're talking so much about altering prejudice, be the bigger person and take the first step. this is what our whole debate has centered upon from the beginning, you wanting things magically erased tomorrow and me saying overcoming ideas like that takes time becos people make these judgments unconsciously from birth and it is utterly human.

but yes, i admit i also think you're blowing things out of proportion. you continue to ignore my work experience and deride my schooling. how old are you and how long have you been in the working world? becos ive seen plenty of office politics and while i can see the snobbish thing being slightly offensive, there is NOTHING in any of what you have related that would make a reasonable person think their job is truly in jeopardy. so like i said, ball is in your court. do you reinforce the prejudice, or do you put your money where your mouth and start working to eradicate prejudice one person at a time?

sponger

soulsinging wrote:

these are both situation of people being products of their environment and subject to some of the prejudices and stereotypes of their upbringing. most of the time its pretty harmless and benign, sometimes it is not. as in all aspects of real life, there are degrees. the assumption that all black people are gang-banging niggers is on the more deplorable and inherently racist end of the spectrum. the statement that girl X though japanese people were supposed to be snobbish is on the more "im naive and have never been outside my suburb" end of the spectrum.

so you were offended... the question is do you want to take it as an opportunity by handling it with dignity, showing them they are wrong, and helping combat those prejudices (as you paid lip service to when you spoke of evolving past prejudice earlier) OR do you want to make it a huge issue and reinforce their negative stereotypes to further entrench them. im not saying they're right, im saying you have a chance to right the situation. it's like that scene in traffic where the black guy talks about how he always gets poor service cos the waitress assumes he's a poor tipper and when his friends asks him if he left a tip he laughs and says "why would i tip for service like that?" it perpetuates the stereotypes and eventually somebody has to be the bigger person. you seem to think there is no way the "sewing circle" will be the bigger person (i notice how you try to avoid discussing YOUR OWN occasional sterotypically derisive remarks), so since you're talking so much about altering prejudice, be the bigger person and take the first step. this is what our whole debate has centered upon from the beginning, you wanting things magically erased tomorrow and me saying overcoming ideas like that takes time becos people make these judgments unconsciously from birth and it is utterly human.

but yes, i admit i also think you're blowing things out of proportion. you continue to ignore my work experience and deride my schooling. how old are you and how long have you been in the working world? becos ive seen plenty of office politics and while i can see the snobbish thing being slightly offensive, there is NOTHING in any of what you have related that would make a reasonable person think their job is truly in jeopardy. so like i said, ball is in your court. do you reinforce the prejudice, or do you put your money where your mouth and start working to eradicate prejudice one person at a time?

Wow. Again...you just keep implying that I am crying discrmination. I did not say that. I said I was concerned. Do I need to back up a few posts and quote you on where you say that such a concern is not entirely unwarranted?

Nor did I say I was offended.

You are the one who is blowing this way out of proportion so you can picture an imaginary target for you to make attacks on. It's almost like you are some kind of liar and I have to waste time helping you understand how contradictory and hypocritical your own point of view are.

How many times do I have to remind you of this?

soulsinging

sponger wrote:

Wow. Again...you just keep implying that I am crying discrmination. I did not say that. I said I was concerned. Do I need to back up a few posts and quote you on where you say that such a concern is not entirely unwarranted?

Nor did I say I was offended.

You are the one who is blowing this way out of proportion so you can picture an imaginary target for you to make attacks on. It's almost like you are some kind of liar and I have to waste time helping you understand how contradictory and hypocritical your own point of view are.

How many times do I have to remind you of this?

how old are you and how long have you been in the workplace? why dyou call the women in your office "the sewing circle?"

you wanted to talk about hypocritical contradictions...

yes, ive admitted her remark was insensitive, but you DID from the beginning express serious concern about your job security because of that remark and made some emotional statements about job security and paying bills and yada yada. im pretty sure i've said that's a bit ridiculous from the beginning. if you are not truly concerned and are not over-reacting, then i must have misread your impassioned pleas about worrying about paying your bills office politics and your coworker gossiping to get you fired. my mistake. you seemed genuinely concerned that your job was at stake and ive consistently said this was nonsense. if you werent saying that, then we're agreed so what's the problem?

gue_barium

sponger wrote:

Wow. Again...you just keep implying that I am crying discrmination. I did not say that. I said I was concerned. Do I need to back up a few posts and quote you on where you say that such a concern is not entirely unwarranted?

Nor did I say I was offended.

You are the one who is blowing this way out of proportion so you can picture an imaginary target for you to make attacks on. It's almost like you are some kind of liar and I have to waste time helping you understand how contradictory and hypocritical your own point of view are.

How many times do I have to remind you of this?

He's a lawyer in training.

sponger

soulsinging wrote:

how old are you and how long have you been in the workplace? why dyou call the women in your office "the sewing circle?"

you wanted to talk about hypocritical contradictions...

Women? I did not say women. I said co-workers.

Do you really mean to imply that I need to explain to you the finer points of office politics? Do you really need a lesson on how subjectivity in the workplace can lead to a wrongful termination?

The question is how old are you and what experience do you have working in heirarchical environments? Currently I am a financial analyst for an investment firm. Before that I worked in government accounting. I was a senior bookkeeper at a law firm for a while, and before that I worked in lower management at UPS.

If you want to be schooled, then that's what I'm here to do.

sponger

soulsinging wrote:

yes, ive admitted her remark was insensitive, but you DID from the beginning express serious concern about your job security because of that remark and made some emotional statements about job security and paying bills and yada yada. im pretty sure i've said that's a bit ridiculous from the beginning. if you are not truly concerned and are not over-reacting, then i must have misread your impassioned pleas about worrying about paying your bills office politics and your coworker gossiping to get you fired. my mistake. you seemed genuinely concerned that your job was at stake and ive consistently said this was nonsense. if you werent saying that, then we're agreed so what's the problem?

But, your opinion has been that I am wrongfully accusing her of being outright discriminatory.

I said the question was a closed-minded one, and that it's not improbable that it could be cause for concern.

Without the former, you have no argument. And be sure to add to that the fact that you've acknowledged the possibility of said discrimination (do I have to fish that out for you?).

So, where else do you want to go with this?

soulsinging

sponger wrote:

Women? I did not say women. I said co-workers.

Do you really mean to imply that I need to explain to you the finer points of office politics? Do you really need a lesson on how subjectivity in the workplace can lead to a wrongful termination?

The question is how old are you and what experience do you have working in heirarchical environments? Currently I am a financial analyst for an investment firm. Before that I worked in government accounting. I was a senior bookkeeper at a law firm for a while, and before that I worked in lower management at UPS.

If you want to be schooled, then that's what I'm here to do.

schooled? in what?

ive worked in public relations for a college, the restaurant business waiting tables, a few nonsense campus jobs, a local library in various capacities, and as a staff member for the president of the country's biggest university. i have plenty of experience in hierarchical environments, usually where i am the bottom rung and most disposable. ive seen workplace politics. my point remains. do you want to defuse the situation or kindle it? do you want to walk your talk and try to combat prejudice by rising above it, or reinforce the prejudice by living up to it? you cannot change their prejudices by any means other than living in a way that proves them wrong.

so you still have an office sewing circle, that's pretty derogatory as well and seems about as arbitrary as her assuming you are snotty. do you have any reason to believe all your fellow co-workers would be wiling to conspire to fire you? or do you just assume that since they're all white they're all as prejudiced as that one co-worker and would be all too happy too gang up on the asian guy?

soulsinging

sponger wrote:

But, your opinion has been that I am wrongfully accusing her of being outright discriminatory.

I said the question was a closed-minded one, and that it's not improbable that it could be cause for concern.

Without the former, you have no argument. And be sure to add to that the fact that you've acknowledged the possibility of said discrimination (do I have to fish that out for you?).

So, where else do you want to go with this?

no, ive said you've rightfully accused her of having some latent prejudices, but that the question was a reasonable one (though her judgment after it was not) and her prejudices seem to be benign and due to her naive whitebread upbringing. i've also said that there is no reason to believe it is a cause for concern because just cos one of the white folks in your office has some backwards notions about the japanese does not mean that your job is in any real danger.

so where i want to go with it is to advise you to let it go, cos if you're looking over your shoulder all the time at work you WILL have work problems, but if you go on about being the reasonable and respected coworker i assume you already are, you have nothing to worry about and you might even manage to change her mind with respect to those prejudices of hers.

sponger

soulsinging wrote:

schooled? in what?

my point remains. do you want to defuse the situation or kindle it? do you want to walk your talk and try to combat prejudice by rising above it, or reinforce the prejudice by living up to it? you cannot change their prejudices by any means other than living in a way that proves them wrong.

I am not trying to change their prejudices. I am not even acknowledging that there is a situation. I'm saying it's not impossible that I should have cause for concern. Again, you're painting onto my posts the view that I am even reacting directly to this possibility in any, way, shape or form. I am merely discussing it.

This is once again a time when I have to help you understand where you literally make up my points of view the sake of just being pompous.

so you still have an office sewing circle, that's pretty derogatory as well and seems about as arbitrary as her assuming you are snotty. do you have any reason to believe all your fellow co-workers would be wiling to conspire to fire you? or do you just assume that since they're all white they're all as prejudiced as that one co-worker and would be all too happy too gang up on the asian guy?

I didn't say they're all white, but none of them are japanese. And, again, you making up the view that I believe they are conspiring against me. Go find it and post it.

I am merely discussing the possibility. I have not accused them of any conspiracy. However, I do acknowledge that the typical workplace environment consists of sewing circles.

If you do not acknowledge that simple fact, then you are either naive or argumentative. In your case, I think it's a combination of both.

sponger

soulsinging wrote:

no, ive said you've rightfully accused her of having some latent prejudices, but that the question was a reasonable one (though her judgment after it was not) and her prejudices seem to be benign and due to her naive whitebread upbringing. i've also said that there is no reason to believe it is a cause for concern because just cos one of the white folks in your office has some backwards notions about the japanese does not mean that your job is in any real danger.

But, you also think most people think the "N" word because of skin color. That's why you are in contradiction to your own "advice". And I can go back and find where you called her question stupid, as opposed to reasonable. But, damn, do I have to spoonfeed you your own points of view?

Also, I did not say she is white. She is not white. She just isn't japanese.