Wow, that really is a pompous point of view. I hate saying that because I find myself to be pompous quite often. But, you really think you have some kind of profound insight on how I should view the people I am surrounded by.
In any other context, I would exercise the same kind of aloof acceptance of inferred prejudice that you so arrogantly preach. But, this concerns my livelihood. It concerns my career. It concerns matters that warrant the extra special attention that I give it. You don't seem to be keen to that yet. Maybe when you graduate from your character assassination school and start building a professional career, you'll understand the mindset that I am plagued by.
And for someone who is so open-minded about another person's prejudicical tendencies, the following statement made by you in regards to the "N" word in another thread is somewhat enigmatic:
So, based on skin color alone, most people think the "N" word. Is this one of those instances where people are just sheltered and are trying to start conversation?
these are both situation of people being products of their environment and subject to some of the prejudices and stereotypes of their upbringing. most of the time its pretty harmless and benign, sometimes it is not. as in all aspects of real life, there are degrees. the assumption that all black people are gang-banging niggers is on the more deplorable and inherently racist end of the spectrum. the statement that girl X though japanese people were supposed to be snobbish is on the more "im naive and have never been outside my suburb" end of the spectrum.
so you were offended... the question is do you want to take it as an opportunity by handling it with dignity, showing them they are wrong, and helping combat those prejudices (as you paid lip service to when you spoke of evolving past prejudice earlier) OR do you want to make it a huge issue and reinforce their negative stereotypes to further entrench them. im not saying they're right, im saying you have a chance to right the situation. it's like that scene in traffic where the black guy talks about how he always gets poor service cos the waitress assumes he's a poor tipper and when his friends asks him if he left a tip he laughs and says "why would i tip for service like that?" it perpetuates the stereotypes and eventually somebody has to be the bigger person. you seem to think there is no way the "sewing circle" will be the bigger person (i notice how you try to avoid discussing YOUR OWN occasional sterotypically derisive remarks), so since you're talking so much about altering prejudice, be the bigger person and take the first step. this is what our whole debate has centered upon from the beginning, you wanting things magically erased tomorrow and me saying overcoming ideas like that takes time becos people make these judgments unconsciously from birth and it is utterly human.
but yes, i admit i also think you're blowing things out of proportion. you continue to ignore my work experience and deride my schooling. how old are you and how long have you been in the working world? becos ive seen plenty of office politics and while i can see the snobbish thing being slightly offensive, there is NOTHING in any of what you have related that would make a reasonable person think their job is truly in jeopardy. so like i said, ball is in your court. do you reinforce the prejudice, or do you put your money where your mouth and start working to eradicate prejudice one person at a time?
these are both situation of people being products of their environment and subject to some of the prejudices and stereotypes of their upbringing. most of the time its pretty harmless and benign, sometimes it is not. as in all aspects of real life, there are degrees. the assumption that all black people are gang-banging niggers is on the more deplorable and inherently racist end of the spectrum. the statement that girl X though japanese people were supposed to be snobbish is on the more "im naive and have never been outside my suburb" end of the spectrum.
so you were offended... the question is do you want to take it as an opportunity by handling it with dignity, showing them they are wrong, and helping combat those prejudices (as you paid lip service to when you spoke of evolving past prejudice earlier) OR do you want to make it a huge issue and reinforce their negative stereotypes to further entrench them. im not saying they're right, im saying you have a chance to right the situation. it's like that scene in traffic where the black guy talks about how he always gets poor service cos the waitress assumes he's a poor tipper and when his friends asks him if he left a tip he laughs and says "why would i tip for service like that?" it perpetuates the stereotypes and eventually somebody has to be the bigger person. you seem to think there is no way the "sewing circle" will be the bigger person (i notice how you try to avoid discussing YOUR OWN occasional sterotypically derisive remarks), so since you're talking so much about altering prejudice, be the bigger person and take the first step. this is what our whole debate has centered upon from the beginning, you wanting things magically erased tomorrow and me saying overcoming ideas like that takes time becos people make these judgments unconsciously from birth and it is utterly human.
but yes, i admit i also think you're blowing things out of proportion. you continue to ignore my work experience and deride my schooling. how old are you and how long have you been in the working world? becos ive seen plenty of office politics and while i can see the snobbish thing being slightly offensive, there is NOTHING in any of what you have related that would make a reasonable person think their job is truly in jeopardy. so like i said, ball is in your court. do you reinforce the prejudice, or do you put your money where your mouth and start working to eradicate prejudice one person at a time?
Wow. Again...you just keep implying that I am crying discrmination. I did not say that. I said I was concerned. Do I need to back up a few posts and quote you on where you say that such a concern is not entirely unwarranted?
Nor did I say I was offended.
You are the one who is blowing this way out of proportion so you can picture an imaginary target for you to make attacks on. It's almost like you are some kind of liar and I have to waste time helping you understand how contradictory and hypocritical your own point of view are.
Wow. Again...you just keep implying that I am crying discrmination. I did not say that. I said I was concerned. Do I need to back up a few posts and quote you on where you say that such a concern is not entirely unwarranted?
Nor did I say I was offended.
You are the one who is blowing this way out of proportion so you can picture an imaginary target for you to make attacks on. It's almost like you are some kind of liar and I have to waste time helping you understand how contradictory and hypocritical your own point of view are.
How many times do I have to remind you of this?
how old are you and how long have you been in the workplace? why dyou call the women in your office "the sewing circle?"
you wanted to talk about hypocritical contradictions...
yes, ive admitted her remark was insensitive, but you DID from the beginning express serious concern about your job security because of that remark and made some emotional statements about job security and paying bills and yada yada. im pretty sure i've said that's a bit ridiculous from the beginning. if you are not truly concerned and are not over-reacting, then i must have misread your impassioned pleas about worrying about paying your bills office politics and your coworker gossiping to get you fired. my mistake. you seemed genuinely concerned that your job was at stake and ive consistently said this was nonsense. if you werent saying that, then we're agreed so what's the problem?
Wow. Again...you just keep implying that I am crying discrmination. I did not say that. I said I was concerned. Do I need to back up a few posts and quote you on where you say that such a concern is not entirely unwarranted?
Nor did I say I was offended.
You are the one who is blowing this way out of proportion so you can picture an imaginary target for you to make attacks on. It's almost like you are some kind of liar and I have to waste time helping you understand how contradictory and hypocritical your own point of view are.
how old are you and how long have you been in the workplace? why dyou call the women in your office "the sewing circle?"
you wanted to talk about hypocritical contradictions...
Women? I did not say women. I said co-workers.
Do you really mean to imply that I need to explain to you the finer points of office politics? Do you really need a lesson on how subjectivity in the workplace can lead to a wrongful termination?
The question is how old are you and what experience do you have working in heirarchical environments? Currently I am a financial analyst for an investment firm. Before that I worked in government accounting. I was a senior bookkeeper at a law firm for a while, and before that I worked in lower management at UPS.
If you want to be schooled, then that's what I'm here to do.
yes, ive admitted her remark was insensitive, but you DID from the beginning express serious concern about your job security because of that remark and made some emotional statements about job security and paying bills and yada yada. im pretty sure i've said that's a bit ridiculous from the beginning. if you are not truly concerned and are not over-reacting, then i must have misread your impassioned pleas about worrying about paying your bills office politics and your coworker gossiping to get you fired. my mistake. you seemed genuinely concerned that your job was at stake and ive consistently said this was nonsense. if you werent saying that, then we're agreed so what's the problem?
But, your opinion has been that I am wrongfully accusing her of being outright discriminatory.
I said the question was a closed-minded one, and that it's not improbable that it could be cause for concern.
Without the former, you have no argument. And be sure to add to that the fact that you've acknowledged the possibility of said discrimination (do I have to fish that out for you?).
Do you really mean to imply that I need to explain to you the finer points of office politics? Do you really need a lesson on how subjectivity in the workplace can lead to a wrongful termination?
The question is how old are you and what experience do you have working in heirarchical environments? Currently I am a financial analyst for an investment firm. Before that I worked in government accounting. I was a senior bookkeeper at a law firm for a while, and before that I worked in lower management at UPS.
If you want to be schooled, then that's what I'm here to do.
schooled? in what?
ive worked in public relations for a college, the restaurant business waiting tables, a few nonsense campus jobs, a local library in various capacities, and as a staff member for the president of the country's biggest university. i have plenty of experience in hierarchical environments, usually where i am the bottom rung and most disposable. ive seen workplace politics. my point remains. do you want to defuse the situation or kindle it? do you want to walk your talk and try to combat prejudice by rising above it, or reinforce the prejudice by living up to it? you cannot change their prejudices by any means other than living in a way that proves them wrong.
so you still have an office sewing circle, that's pretty derogatory as well and seems about as arbitrary as her assuming you are snotty. do you have any reason to believe all your fellow co-workers would be wiling to conspire to fire you? or do you just assume that since they're all white they're all as prejudiced as that one co-worker and would be all too happy too gang up on the asian guy?
But, your opinion has been that I am wrongfully accusing her of being outright discriminatory.
I said the question was a closed-minded one, and that it's not improbable that it could be cause for concern.
Without the former, you have no argument. And be sure to add to that the fact that you've acknowledged the possibility of said discrimination (do I have to fish that out for you?).
So, where else do you want to go with this?
no, ive said you've rightfully accused her of having some latent prejudices, but that the question was a reasonable one (though her judgment after it was not) and her prejudices seem to be benign and due to her naive whitebread upbringing. i've also said that there is no reason to believe it is a cause for concern because just cos one of the white folks in your office has some backwards notions about the japanese does not mean that your job is in any real danger.
so where i want to go with it is to advise you to let it go, cos if you're looking over your shoulder all the time at work you WILL have work problems, but if you go on about being the reasonable and respected coworker i assume you already are, you have nothing to worry about and you might even manage to change her mind with respect to those prejudices of hers.
my point remains. do you want to defuse the situation or kindle it? do you want to walk your talk and try to combat prejudice by rising above it, or reinforce the prejudice by living up to it? you cannot change their prejudices by any means other than living in a way that proves them wrong.
I am not trying to change their prejudices. I am not even acknowledging that there is a situation. I'm saying it's not impossible that I should have cause for concern. Again, you're painting onto my posts the view that I am even reacting directly to this possibility in any, way, shape or form. I am merely discussing it.
This is once again a time when I have to help you understand where you literally make up my points of view the sake of just being pompous.
so you still have an office sewing circle, that's pretty derogatory as well and seems about as arbitrary as her assuming you are snotty. do you have any reason to believe all your fellow co-workers would be wiling to conspire to fire you? or do you just assume that since they're all white they're all as prejudiced as that one co-worker and would be all too happy too gang up on the asian guy?
I didn't say they're all white, but none of them are japanese. And, again, you making up the view that I believe they are conspiring against me. Go find it and post it.
I am merely discussing the possibility. I have not accused them of any conspiracy. However, I do acknowledge that the typical workplace environment consists of sewing circles.
If you do not acknowledge that simple fact, then you are either naive or argumentative. In your case, I think it's a combination of both.
no, ive said you've rightfully accused her of having some latent prejudices, but that the question was a reasonable one (though her judgment after it was not) and her prejudices seem to be benign and due to her naive whitebread upbringing. i've also said that there is no reason to believe it is a cause for concern because just cos one of the white folks in your office has some backwards notions about the japanese does not mean that your job is in any real danger.
But, you also think most people think the "N" word because of skin color. That's why you are in contradiction to your own "advice". And I can go back and find where you called her question stupid, as opposed to reasonable. But, damn, do I have to spoonfeed you your own points of view?
Also, I did not say she is white. She is not white. She just isn't japanese.
I didn't say they're all white, but none of them are japanese. And, again, you making up the view that I believe they are conspiring against me. Go find it and post it.
I am merely discussing the possibility. I have not accused them of any conspiracy. However, I do acknowledge that the typical workplace environment consists of sewing circles.
actually, i dont really know what a sewing circle is. it sounds like the harmless gossip the ladies do around the water cooler to vent.
But, you also think most people think the "N" word because of skin color. That's why you are in contradiction to your own "advice". And I can go back and find where you called her question stupid, as opposed to reasonable. But, damn, do I have to spoonfeed you your own points of view?
Also, I did not say she is white. She is not white. She just isn't japanese.
im not sure what your point is here. i said her response was stupid, her question seems like harmless conversation. if i said otherwise, it's becos my typing was careless cos it is exhausting trying to talk to you.
the entire beginning of this debate was kicked off by you whining about how culture is stupid and we should do away with it. that sure sounds like you want people's prejudices to change, yet now you claim that you have no desire to do so. i dont know what your purpose in any of this was... to rant? vent? dream about how humanity would be better off if we all did away with the backbone of human society for the last 10000 years (which will never happen)?
actually, i dont really know what a sewing circle is. it sounds like the harmless gossip the ladies do around the water cooler to vent.
I'm bored. Obviously I am. Otherwise, I would not be sitting on here wasting so much time. But, you seem genuinely interested in what a workplace sewing circle is, so I'm going to explain to you my background with understanding this phenomenon.
I worked for a company that has problems with the union. It's so bad in fact that management training consists mostly of dealing with union politics and defusing union strong-arming tactics.
There's a lesson in this training called "Understanding spheres of influence".
A sphere of influence is a circle of workplace acquantances who are influenced by an "informal leader".
An informal leader is a person who may or may not have title or rank of any kind, but still has influence because he/she might just be likable for whatever.
So you take a blank piece of paper and you draw a bunch of circles within circles. You start writing down names along the rings of each circle.
The more conversations you observe a person having, the closer to the center circle goes the name. If the conversations are few, but a person has a way of influencing those conversations, you move that name up just as you would a person who has many conversations.
Eventually what you end up with is a person in the middle, and a map of people who inhabit the outer rings.
To break up a union strong-arming conspiracy as it happens or before it happens, go directly to the person in the center of the circle and make buddy-buddy with him/or and see if he/she can't use his/her own influence to help further the corporate goals.
After I left that company, I found that the same logic applied to every workplace regardless of whether or not there was a union. There are "informal leaders" wherever you go, and they carry the weight of an angry mob if need be.
the entire beginning of this debate was kicked off by you whining about how culture is stupid and we should do away with it. that sure sounds like you want people's prejudices to change, yet now you claim that you have no desire to do so. i dont know what your purpose in any of this was... to rant? vent? dream about how humanity would be better off if we all did away with the backbone of human society for the last 10000 years (which will never happen)?
If you had been reading my posts thoroughly from the beginning, you would have discovered that I no intentions of actually forcing that change. I wanted it to be voluntary.
My statements regarding my lack of interest in reacting to that prejudice were in response to your calls for either "proving them wrong or proving them right." Such a statement implies that I am going to take action that would leave them with no choice but to either continue to buy into those steretypes or change them.
I'm saying that this choice on their part would not even be presented to them for the simple fact that my mere contemplation of the possibility of job-threatening discrimination on their part would never be something that they would ever take notice of.
And what do I want? I just wanted to express my view that there is nothing helpful about ethnic cultural identifiers, and that any sort of categorization based on ethnicity, even while seemingly harmless or even positive, perpetuate the tendency to just simply categorize people based on criteria that has more to do with how they should be instead of how they really are.
And my personal experience example was an example of how cultural identifiers can still be dangerous even when they are not overtly discriminatory. I'm only trying to point out the fact that the possibility is there, and that there is no practical need for this possibility to even exist.
you just dont care if the culture of the english /american etc people is minimized and while places in florida and california and texas have spanish only and arrogantly dont care if they knOw spanish only and while places in usa put up on gov biulidings only the mexican flag and ban english books in public libariries - THIS IS ACTUALLY HAPPENEING!1DO YOU CARE?!!WAKE UP!
Huh? Ok I have never heard of this. You'd think if this were happening all over then it would be on the news or something. Are you sure you're not just being paranoid?
My cousin and her kids lived in Texas for a number of years and their kids did take Spanish in school, but English wasn't banned. That's the craziest thing I ever heard.
And if this IS happening... then no... I don't really care. America has no culture of its own. We are and have always been a mesh of cultures. Each group of people having their own culture, but no overall culture exists. If we all spoke 5 languages then we could enteract with all the cultures that live in this country. Do you think my Italian and Swedish (respectively) friends lost their culture by learning other languages? I'd tell you they would say no they didn't! Besides there's more to culture than language anyway.
Huh? Ok I have never heard of this. You'd think if this were happening all over then it would be on the news or something. Are you sure you're not just being paranoid?
My cousin and her kids lived in Texas for a number of years and their kids did take Spanish in school, but English wasn't banned. That's the craziest thing I ever heard.
And if this IS happening... then no... I don't really care. America has no culture of its own. We are and have always been a mesh of cultures. Each group of people having their own culture, but no overall culture exists. If we all spoke 5 languages then we could enteract with all the cultures that live in this country. Do you think my Italian and Swedish (respectively) friends lost their culture by learning other languages? I'd tell you they would say no they didn't! Besides there's more to culture than language anyway.
did you just get off the boat? what do you mean america has no culture? i could write for hours about american culture. ever hear of a museum? american culture may have been pushed aside to allow minority groups to cover the culture; but come out west and tell someone america doesn't have a culture. except california maybe.
i just read a post that i found insulting; ego-centric; condecending; short sided; and narrow minded.
now i've read the anti-american threads and knew it was directed at government and policies for the most part. i laugh to myself because i know ya'll are lined up by the thousands trying to get in. and i'm not talking just mexico. every country has applicants to immigrate here.
but this post attacked the people. maybe it's no big deal to you. if it isn't and you're american; you're part of the problem. this poster said america doesn't have a culture. our culture began in the 17th century. with a group of people willing to take a chance on the unknown and inspired only by a dream. that group of people forged what is now known to the world as freedom. what existed prior was monarchies and dictatorships.
now i don't mind you knocking america because of it's policies. after all; we invented the freedom of speach you enjoy now. but when you attack a culture or the people themselves; that is wrong. so please; we respect your opinions but don't attack a culture or the people themselves.
i'm sure this thread will quickly drop out of sight but i had to speak my mind.
thank you for reading it.
i think my great grandfather was in war of 1812 and maybe revolution and have ansestors on both sides maybe tories as well
some of the new arivals may as well be from mars they know so little and care nothing for what usa is and they look at me like im from mars with these grim serious faces some of these weird immigrants ,not all just some i guess-then again noone seems happy in usa anymore -so they all look like serious grimsters
some east indian girl saw me in a store and just smiled
i think east indians are about the friendliest people in the world maybe
I heard this from almost every political science, history and sociology professor in College. I got in a little trouble for arguing against it using almost the exact same words that you used here.
some of the new arivals may as well be from mars they know so little and care nothing for what usa is and they look at me like im from mars with these grim serious faces some of these weird immigrants ,not all just some i guess-then again noone seems happy in usa anymore -so they all look like serious grimsters
I would think any immigrant would look serious. I'm 2nd generation Italian-American on my Dad's side and 5th generation German-American on my mom's side. Those generations of immigrants didn't come here because things were good back home, they came over to start anew. They wanted to get to work quickly to start a new life. They have done something very difficult. How many people who are registered to vote actually vote? Is it only immigrants, if it is in fact immigrants, who do not care about the USA?
Actually, they care very much about the USA.
There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
I heard this from almost every political science, history and sociology professor in College. I got in a little trouble for arguing against it using almost the exact same words that you used here.
so now we edit quotes to to turn them around i see. and this is ok? i can remove words from your quotes to say the opposite of what you really said? this is bloody rediculous.
so now we edit quotes to to turn them around i see. and this is ok? i can remove words from your quotes to say the opposite of what you really said? this is bloody rediculous.
I'm bored. Obviously I am. Otherwise, I would not be sitting on here wasting so much time. But, you seem genuinely interested in what a workplace sewing circle is, so I'm going to explain to you my background with understanding this phenomenon.
I worked for a company that has problems with the union. It's so bad in fact that management training consists mostly of dealing with union politics and defusing union strong-arming tactics.
There's a lesson in this training called "Understanding spheres of influence".
A sphere of influence is a circle of workplace acquantances who are influenced by an "informal leader".
An informal leader is a person who may or may not have title or rank of any kind, but still has influence because he/she might just be likable for whatever.
So you take a blank piece of paper and you draw a bunch of circles within circles. You start writing down names along the rings of each circle.
The more conversations you observe a person having, the closer to the center circle goes the name. If the conversations are few, but a person has a way of influencing those conversations, you move that name up just as you would a person who has many conversations.
Eventually what you end up with is a person in the middle, and a map of people who inhabit the outer rings.
To break up a union strong-arming conspiracy as it happens or before it happens, go directly to the person in the center of the circle and make buddy-buddy with him/or and see if he/she can't use his/her own influence to help further the corporate goals.
After I left that company, I found that the same logic applied to every workplace regardless of whether or not there was a union. There are "informal leaders" wherever you go, and they carry the weight of an angry mob if need be.
Go ahead. Accuse me of being overly reactive.
no, that makes perfect sense to me and i've seen ti in every job i've been in too. im assuming this lady who made the comment was towards the center? my point mainly was that i dont see anything in your story to indicate she would try to use her influence to get you canned due to her little prejudicial comment there. it'd be like her telling me "oh, you're irish? you must drink a lot then huh?" it would be rude and unfounded and reveal sterotypical views, but i wouldnt be concerned that she was going to start telling people im an alcoholic and pushing to have me fired. that's all im saying, is i doubt your job is truly at risk here just becos she made some off the cuff remark that shows that she, like almost everyone, carries some latent stereotypical views aorund and occasionally they pop out inappropriately.
And what do I want? I just wanted to express my view that there is nothing helpful about ethnic cultural identifiers, and that any sort of categorization based on ethnicity, even while seemingly harmless or even positive, perpetuate the tendency to just simply categorize people based on criteria that has more to do with how they should be instead of how they really are.
and that is probably true, but slightly different from what i thought you were saying originally. you were talking about how culture is stupid and should be done away with and i disagree. i take great pride in my irish history and many other cultural influences that have helped shape who i am. doing away with them would do away with things that are important to me. and many others are the same.
what you're arguing against here is prejudice, or stereotypical views of individual people based on misperceptions about what their culture is or means and what kind of control it has over who they are. and i agree with you there.
i think my great grandfather was in war of 1812 and maybe revolution and have ansestors on both sides maybe tories as well
some of the new arivals may as well be from mars they know so little and care nothing for what usa is and they look at me like im from mars with these grim serious faces some of these weird immigrants ,not all just some i guess-then again noone seems happy in usa anymore -so they all look like serious grimsters
they're scared. they were driven from home by not nice people. now they're in a country they aren't familiar with and don't speak the language of. they want to be part of it, but dont yet know how.
and they know that there are people like you around who hate them and are hostile to their efforts to try to join the country.
did you just get off the boat? what do you mean america has no culture? i could write for hours about american culture. ever hear of a museum? american culture may have been pushed aside to allow minority groups to cover the culture; but come out west and tell someone america doesn't have a culture. except california maybe.
oh, california has culture, it's character they lack
Comments
these are both situation of people being products of their environment and subject to some of the prejudices and stereotypes of their upbringing. most of the time its pretty harmless and benign, sometimes it is not. as in all aspects of real life, there are degrees. the assumption that all black people are gang-banging niggers is on the more deplorable and inherently racist end of the spectrum. the statement that girl X though japanese people were supposed to be snobbish is on the more "im naive and have never been outside my suburb" end of the spectrum.
so you were offended... the question is do you want to take it as an opportunity by handling it with dignity, showing them they are wrong, and helping combat those prejudices (as you paid lip service to when you spoke of evolving past prejudice earlier) OR do you want to make it a huge issue and reinforce their negative stereotypes to further entrench them. im not saying they're right, im saying you have a chance to right the situation. it's like that scene in traffic where the black guy talks about how he always gets poor service cos the waitress assumes he's a poor tipper and when his friends asks him if he left a tip he laughs and says "why would i tip for service like that?" it perpetuates the stereotypes and eventually somebody has to be the bigger person. you seem to think there is no way the "sewing circle" will be the bigger person (i notice how you try to avoid discussing YOUR OWN occasional sterotypically derisive remarks), so since you're talking so much about altering prejudice, be the bigger person and take the first step. this is what our whole debate has centered upon from the beginning, you wanting things magically erased tomorrow and me saying overcoming ideas like that takes time becos people make these judgments unconsciously from birth and it is utterly human.
but yes, i admit i also think you're blowing things out of proportion. you continue to ignore my work experience and deride my schooling. how old are you and how long have you been in the working world? becos ive seen plenty of office politics and while i can see the snobbish thing being slightly offensive, there is NOTHING in any of what you have related that would make a reasonable person think their job is truly in jeopardy. so like i said, ball is in your court. do you reinforce the prejudice, or do you put your money where your mouth and start working to eradicate prejudice one person at a time?
Wow. Again...you just keep implying that I am crying discrmination. I did not say that. I said I was concerned. Do I need to back up a few posts and quote you on where you say that such a concern is not entirely unwarranted?
Nor did I say I was offended.
You are the one who is blowing this way out of proportion so you can picture an imaginary target for you to make attacks on. It's almost like you are some kind of liar and I have to waste time helping you understand how contradictory and hypocritical your own point of view are.
How many times do I have to remind you of this?
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
how old are you and how long have you been in the workplace? why dyou call the women in your office "the sewing circle?"
you wanted to talk about hypocritical contradictions...
yes, ive admitted her remark was insensitive, but you DID from the beginning express serious concern about your job security because of that remark and made some emotional statements about job security and paying bills and yada yada. im pretty sure i've said that's a bit ridiculous from the beginning. if you are not truly concerned and are not over-reacting, then i must have misread your impassioned pleas about worrying about paying your bills office politics and your coworker gossiping to get you fired. my mistake. you seemed genuinely concerned that your job was at stake and ive consistently said this was nonsense. if you werent saying that, then we're agreed so what's the problem?
He's a lawyer in training.
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Women? I did not say women. I said co-workers.
Do you really mean to imply that I need to explain to you the finer points of office politics? Do you really need a lesson on how subjectivity in the workplace can lead to a wrongful termination?
The question is how old are you and what experience do you have working in heirarchical environments? Currently I am a financial analyst for an investment firm. Before that I worked in government accounting. I was a senior bookkeeper at a law firm for a while, and before that I worked in lower management at UPS.
If you want to be schooled, then that's what I'm here to do.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
But, your opinion has been that I am wrongfully accusing her of being outright discriminatory.
I said the question was a closed-minded one, and that it's not improbable that it could be cause for concern.
Without the former, you have no argument. And be sure to add to that the fact that you've acknowledged the possibility of said discrimination (do I have to fish that out for you?).
So, where else do you want to go with this?
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
schooled? in what?
ive worked in public relations for a college, the restaurant business waiting tables, a few nonsense campus jobs, a local library in various capacities, and as a staff member for the president of the country's biggest university. i have plenty of experience in hierarchical environments, usually where i am the bottom rung and most disposable. ive seen workplace politics. my point remains. do you want to defuse the situation or kindle it? do you want to walk your talk and try to combat prejudice by rising above it, or reinforce the prejudice by living up to it? you cannot change their prejudices by any means other than living in a way that proves them wrong.
so you still have an office sewing circle, that's pretty derogatory as well and seems about as arbitrary as her assuming you are snotty. do you have any reason to believe all your fellow co-workers would be wiling to conspire to fire you? or do you just assume that since they're all white they're all as prejudiced as that one co-worker and would be all too happy too gang up on the asian guy?
no, ive said you've rightfully accused her of having some latent prejudices, but that the question was a reasonable one (though her judgment after it was not) and her prejudices seem to be benign and due to her naive whitebread upbringing. i've also said that there is no reason to believe it is a cause for concern because just cos one of the white folks in your office has some backwards notions about the japanese does not mean that your job is in any real danger.
so where i want to go with it is to advise you to let it go, cos if you're looking over your shoulder all the time at work you WILL have work problems, but if you go on about being the reasonable and respected coworker i assume you already are, you have nothing to worry about and you might even manage to change her mind with respect to those prejudices of hers.
I didn't say they're all white, but none of them are japanese. And, again, you making up the view that I believe they are conspiring against me. Go find it and post it.
I am merely discussing the possibility. I have not accused them of any conspiracy. However, I do acknowledge that the typical workplace environment consists of sewing circles.
If you do not acknowledge that simple fact, then you are either naive or argumentative. In your case, I think it's a combination of both.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
But, you also think most people think the "N" word because of skin color. That's why you are in contradiction to your own "advice". And I can go back and find where you called her question stupid, as opposed to reasonable. But, damn, do I have to spoonfeed you your own points of view?
Also, I did not say she is white. She is not white. She just isn't japanese.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
actually, i dont really know what a sewing circle is. it sounds like the harmless gossip the ladies do around the water cooler to vent.
im not sure what your point is here. i said her response was stupid, her question seems like harmless conversation. if i said otherwise, it's becos my typing was careless cos it is exhausting trying to talk to you.
the entire beginning of this debate was kicked off by you whining about how culture is stupid and we should do away with it. that sure sounds like you want people's prejudices to change, yet now you claim that you have no desire to do so. i dont know what your purpose in any of this was... to rant? vent? dream about how humanity would be better off if we all did away with the backbone of human society for the last 10000 years (which will never happen)?
I'm bored. Obviously I am. Otherwise, I would not be sitting on here wasting so much time. But, you seem genuinely interested in what a workplace sewing circle is, so I'm going to explain to you my background with understanding this phenomenon.
I worked for a company that has problems with the union. It's so bad in fact that management training consists mostly of dealing with union politics and defusing union strong-arming tactics.
There's a lesson in this training called "Understanding spheres of influence".
A sphere of influence is a circle of workplace acquantances who are influenced by an "informal leader".
An informal leader is a person who may or may not have title or rank of any kind, but still has influence because he/she might just be likable for whatever.
So you take a blank piece of paper and you draw a bunch of circles within circles. You start writing down names along the rings of each circle.
The more conversations you observe a person having, the closer to the center circle goes the name. If the conversations are few, but a person has a way of influencing those conversations, you move that name up just as you would a person who has many conversations.
Eventually what you end up with is a person in the middle, and a map of people who inhabit the outer rings.
To break up a union strong-arming conspiracy as it happens or before it happens, go directly to the person in the center of the circle and make buddy-buddy with him/or and see if he/she can't use his/her own influence to help further the corporate goals.
After I left that company, I found that the same logic applied to every workplace regardless of whether or not there was a union. There are "informal leaders" wherever you go, and they carry the weight of an angry mob if need be.
Go ahead. Accuse me of being overly reactive.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
If you had been reading my posts thoroughly from the beginning, you would have discovered that I no intentions of actually forcing that change. I wanted it to be voluntary.
My statements regarding my lack of interest in reacting to that prejudice were in response to your calls for either "proving them wrong or proving them right." Such a statement implies that I am going to take action that would leave them with no choice but to either continue to buy into those steretypes or change them.
I'm saying that this choice on their part would not even be presented to them for the simple fact that my mere contemplation of the possibility of job-threatening discrimination on their part would never be something that they would ever take notice of.
And what do I want? I just wanted to express my view that there is nothing helpful about ethnic cultural identifiers, and that any sort of categorization based on ethnicity, even while seemingly harmless or even positive, perpetuate the tendency to just simply categorize people based on criteria that has more to do with how they should be instead of how they really are.
And my personal experience example was an example of how cultural identifiers can still be dangerous even when they are not overtly discriminatory. I'm only trying to point out the fact that the possibility is there, and that there is no practical need for this possibility to even exist.
That's all.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Huh? Ok I have never heard of this. You'd think if this were happening all over then it would be on the news or something. Are you sure you're not just being paranoid?
My cousin and her kids lived in Texas for a number of years and their kids did take Spanish in school, but English wasn't banned. That's the craziest thing I ever heard.
And if this IS happening... then no... I don't really care. America has no culture of its own. We are and have always been a mesh of cultures. Each group of people having their own culture, but no overall culture exists. If we all spoke 5 languages then we could enteract with all the cultures that live in this country. Do you think my Italian and Swedish (respectively) friends lost their culture by learning other languages? I'd tell you they would say no they didn't! Besides there's more to culture than language anyway.
Peace and Love
Deni
did you just get off the boat? what do you mean america has no culture? i could write for hours about american culture. ever hear of a museum? american culture may have been pushed aside to allow minority groups to cover the culture; but come out west and tell someone america doesn't have a culture. except california maybe.
now i've read the anti-american threads and knew it was directed at government and policies for the most part. i laugh to myself because i know ya'll are lined up by the thousands trying to get in. and i'm not talking just mexico. every country has applicants to immigrate here.
but this post attacked the people. maybe it's no big deal to you. if it isn't and you're american; you're part of the problem. this poster said america doesn't have a culture. our culture began in the 17th century. with a group of people willing to take a chance on the unknown and inspired only by a dream. that group of people forged what is now known to the world as freedom. what existed prior was monarchies and dictatorships.
now i don't mind you knocking america because of it's policies. after all; we invented the freedom of speach you enjoy now. but when you attack a culture or the people themselves; that is wrong. so please; we respect your opinions but don't attack a culture or the people themselves.
i'm sure this thread will quickly drop out of sight but i had to speak my mind.
thank you for reading it.
What?
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
some of the new arivals may as well be from mars they know so little and care nothing for what usa is and they look at me like im from mars with these grim serious faces some of these weird immigrants ,not all just some i guess-then again noone seems happy in usa anymore -so they all look like serious grimsters
some east indian girl saw me in a store and just smiled
i think east indians are about the friendliest people in the world maybe
http://groups.msn.com/PearlJamNirvana/messages.msnw
obama sucks midwest usa douchbags in the back rows on oprah show
http://groups.msn.com/PearlJamNirvana/messages.msnw
I heard this from almost every political science, history and sociology professor in College. I got in a little trouble for arguing against it using almost the exact same words that you used here.
Actually, they care very much about the USA.
The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
so now we edit quotes to to turn them around i see. and this is ok? i can remove words from your quotes to say the opposite of what you really said? this is bloody rediculous.
What?
no, that makes perfect sense to me and i've seen ti in every job i've been in too. im assuming this lady who made the comment was towards the center? my point mainly was that i dont see anything in your story to indicate she would try to use her influence to get you canned due to her little prejudicial comment there. it'd be like her telling me "oh, you're irish? you must drink a lot then huh?" it would be rude and unfounded and reveal sterotypical views, but i wouldnt be concerned that she was going to start telling people im an alcoholic and pushing to have me fired. that's all im saying, is i doubt your job is truly at risk here just becos she made some off the cuff remark that shows that she, like almost everyone, carries some latent stereotypical views aorund and occasionally they pop out inappropriately.
and that is probably true, but slightly different from what i thought you were saying originally. you were talking about how culture is stupid and should be done away with and i disagree. i take great pride in my irish history and many other cultural influences that have helped shape who i am. doing away with them would do away with things that are important to me. and many others are the same.
what you're arguing against here is prejudice, or stereotypical views of individual people based on misperceptions about what their culture is or means and what kind of control it has over who they are. and i agree with you there.
they're scared. they were driven from home by not nice people. now they're in a country they aren't familiar with and don't speak the language of. they want to be part of it, but dont yet know how.
and they know that there are people like you around who hate them and are hostile to their efforts to try to join the country.
classy.
oh, california has culture, it's character they lack